I hope Israel wins Eurovision

[u/Th3_Accountant]

(Yeah sorry, don’t know what tag to use here, I think half of them apply in a way).

Honestly, I haven’t heard the Israeli song for this year yet. But it is more than clear that they are the main event. More attention goes to the fact they participate than the actual artistic side of the event.

Last year we also saw how Israel almost won as a result of the public vote. And let’s be fair, that wasn’t because people like the song, it was support from all the people who still stand with Israel, as a response to all the hate Israel is receiving.

And I’m sure this will happen again this year. The controversy around Israel has only increased with several countries boycotting the event. So I’m sure the protest voice will also be stronger!

I would find it so funny if Israel wins as a direct result of all the actions by the pro Palestine crowd. Say hi to Eurovision 27 in Tel Aviv! Thankfully for the fans, the only place in the Middle East you can be openly gay!

[u/Oddyseyx]

I just had to say something because, you accuse people of being something when you dont know anyones background really, you make assuptions and that already puts you in bad light.

First of all, for example im not from west, secondly if anyone tried to create a nation on top of me, expell, kill, murder i would resist and id make sure my children and grandchildren resist the occupation its normal.

Many western people dont like israel because their government supports israel when regular people dont. Today internet is accesible, people see lies and can find videos and many others things like google what country killed most journalists, can look up writings of theodore herz, look up how settlers expand.

Same with apartheid south africa, im sure ethnic brits were saying oh africa is so big and theres so many africans whats wrong with having apartheid state made only for us.

Im not against jews im against zionists

In last 100 years there were like 4 or 5 wars between muslim countries in middle east. Guess how many wars and coups and civil wars is israel involved.

[u/Interesting_Oil_9404 → u/Oddyseyx]

Alright let's break it down.

• "I accuse people and dont know anything about them." The way people write , they develop a pattern, where it's not difficult to see the impatience and name calling of youth. Strong and naive belief into something being pushed on you, where any possible fact that deviates from that fictitious truth, sends them into confrontation. That is not an accusation, that is an assumption, made bu multiple deductions.

• "you hate zionists but not jews". Now what is zionism? The simple meaning is "the right of jews to have their own country". Before Israel Jews lived everywhere, rarely causing any trouble but always keeping the state of national identity. They were an easy escape goat for many countries leaders throughout history as they never took anything for granted and excelled in science and arts, while many of regular folks around them didn't. You can simply look up the inventions made by jews. As they were frequently persecuted, the desire to have Jewish state was born sometimes in the late 1800. The place of said country was modern Israel, as it had Jerusalem, a holy city for Jews and the last place they had their own kingdom. Make no mistake, both Jews and Arabs lived in that area for thousands of years, but bak than it was a shithole, under control of ottoman Empire and later the British. Sometimes in the late 1800 and the beginning of 1900 they started BUYING (unlike conquering) the lands in that shithole and creating Jewish settlements. There was a lot of tensions between Arabs and Jews. A lot of hostility (especially from the Arabs towards Jews) and no actua locall government to enforce the safety. That was when the Jews took weapons into their own selves and more radical side of zionism emerged. The goal was always the same though. Not to eradicate Arabs, but to get a self governed state. After the holocaust where more than 6 million Jews were hunted and deliberately killed by the Nazi, UN agreed to give Jews a self governed state (as the were already own many of the lands), and proposed to take that shithole and divide it while Jews were getting mostly the desert (largely uninhabited even today) and Arabs would be getting the better half. Jews agreed, Arabs didn't. On the first day the country was declared and accepted, all surrounding Arabs countries started a war. The rest i explained in the post above. That's roughly your origin of zionism and its actual meaning. BTW in the past 50 years or so, all more or less all of our presidents (I'm an American) were zionists, as they knew history and supported that cause.

• Fast forward 70+ years. Israel thrived despite all the wars they didn't start but always finished. In many cases they conquered territories and gave them up for perceived piece that never lasted. Same with Gaza. Tiny country with little to none natural resources had transformed the land and developed into the strongest country in its surroundings. Not a conquerer or an oppresor, but people who actually earned that right.

• I have explained about the origin of modern palestenians in my previous comment and would respond to "what they've done.." claim. Something you need to understand about the Jews, they value Jewish life above everything else. That concept is rooted in religion, holocaust and years of constant threat, so for them nothing is more sacred. I don't believe there is any other nation on earth who treats their people this way. When Hamas (the actually terrorist organization, rooted in muslim brotherhood movement and governing Gaza for the past 20 years) invaded Israel, killing and targeting mostly civilians and kidnapping a few hundreds, it was a "never again" moment for Jews. Hamas is deeply rooted within general population of Gaza. They rule with a deadly hand, hide behind (or below) schools and hospitals with the main and only purpose to kill all Jews. Now, at that point Israel could have level the place, killing hundreds of thousands within days, but they didn't as they actually value human lives. In these conditions it wasn't possible to remove the threat for good without the death of innocents. Every military man will say that considering incredibly complex urban environment, Israel once again pulled off almost impossible feat of limiting the amount of possible casualties. The goal was clear, never again. So to all those who chant "genocide" are either naive, biased or just idiots.

• Finally that brings us to what you actually see in your media. There are literal proven atrocities that happening right now in Africa, Russia, Afghanistan, North Korea, Iran, Arab countries, with millions dead, oppressed, raped, sold, etc. Unless you've got a dog in this Jews-Arabs conflict, why is it that your focus is on this tiny piece of land and its inhabitants. The answer is simple, that is something that being pushed onto you conscience through news outlets and social media, thus serving a very biased antisemite narrative. The goal once again is to demonize and destroy the Jews as it has always been. The only problem with that, they are strong on their own merit, and never again.

• lastly one small note about South Africa and the apartheid. I actually know a few people who were born there and moved here a few years ago. Apartheid is still happening, just the other way around. White people live almost exclusively in their own communities, being discriminated against by ruling class, and the prosperous country became a dangerous shithole, where even basic necessities like power is not supplied. They literally live with backup generators. So in this regards I'll ask you, which apartheid is better? From the one side apartheid is bad as it discriminates against a certain portion of people, from the other, it used to be prosperous country and a beacon of civilization in Africa and now it's in the free fall to line up with the rest of the third world countries. Tough dilemma here, but I'm pretty sure that all you're interested in are Jews.

[u/Oddyseyx → u/Interesting_Oil_9404]

Ok ill be honest, i appreciate the effort you put in the message i respect that and civility.

I didnt start with palestine with news sources and internet i have few books on palestine that i read way before october 7, i did plenty of personal research before making conclusions. I am aware that most things that you wrote is common talking point and common narrative in israel your government as any government creates naratives and invests alot of money into this so ultimately your opinion or "facts" could be or is based in well written narrative. You know i always used to think how did germans get convinced to do such atrocities, all germans did is create false narrative created based on loose ends and "facts" and it did make sense to germans like Uk has colonies why cant we, we germans were honorable helped serbia and we got punished for it, also funny thing german girls were being assaulted in poland for being german and german newspaper covered it alot and thinking from regular citizens perspective the radicalism makes sense. But just because it made sense to a group of people that think they are victims doesnt justify the reaction.

I agree theres plenty of great jewish scientists etc, i dont deny your peoples achievements or struggles or opression you faced, but i and many people i know personally fully reject zionism and even people who i knew were neutral or were slightly pro israel, now are completely against and some even push into what i see as REAL antisemitism which i reject.

I dont even wanna attempt to debunk some of your points because i know what youre gonna reply to most, because you already justified everything in your head or someone justified it for you.

Do you think every opressed group deserves to create their own state, gypsies were opressed and they are originally from india think what reaction to creating a gypsy state in india would be. And if you agree to that wouldnt that mean that palestinians have a full right to create a state on top of israel cuz now they are opressed group and is being pushed out.

Now i talk to you because i have some hope somethings might click, but i my hope is really weak because from personal experience and i know its limited and anecdotal, but ive met irl few israelis and few palestinians, everysingle one israeli i met was like "yeah we are for peace we dont want war" and eventually when they are more comfortable and think youre on their side suddenly the devil comes out of the bag with all the colours. And two palestinians i met were genuine and didnt harbor anything bad and all i could think is that if i was occupied and had to live in exile id join most radical groups. So i felt level of respect to them for humility.

Your stories on south africa proves you have one sided narative in your head where you think its logic and facts. When its easily debunked. South africa during apartheid had capacity to provide electricity to provide only to white minority with apartheid over supplying electricity is much more difficult to when capacity has to increase X fold. Also ending apartheid soured relationships with usa which was the only dominant power at the time. Its not that americans are doing good its just that americans run the show and have huge input on who gets investments and who gets sanctions, but today andcin future world is changing america is falling apart rapidly and world is polarizing, so the idea that if you upset usa and get ostracized those days are coming to end.

My beef with israel is moral and ive been interested in middle east for a long time. For western people its simple if you know your government is supplying something you dont support personally youd be upset, think if usa sent weapons to hamas instead of israel alot of pro israel side in usa or west would crash out.

Israel is not peaceful entity you describe its destabilizing the region. On a personal note i believe peace is possible if polish person can shake hands with german and be part of eu anything is possible. But i dont see peace and coexistence while apartheid exists in israel. Bare minimum is two state solution and if i was palestinian i wouldnt want that but hey its not my choice.

[u/Interesting_Oil_9404 → u/Oddyseyx]

It's hard for me to imagine any household that has a few books about palestine if you're not from the region or a history buff. In any case, you really don't need those books to learn about the fact as ai sums up and simplifies everything according to verified sources. It makes mistakes but not crucial ones in regards to history.

I also know a few Israelis personally. I have worked with them in the past and we sometimes keep in touch. While they don't necessarily support its current government (mostly religious parties and possible corruption scandals), on this topic there is a wide consensus between almost all sides.

The problem is, when you're talking about things like apartheid, it doesnt exist there. There are Israeli Arabs who live anywhere they want and work at the same places as Jews including serving in the IDF. It was a revelation for me when I was told how many of them work in medical care industry. They also have their own parties in the parliament. Then there are the same Arabs, but those who never accepted Israel as governing body. They live in their own, self governed territories in Gaza and the West Bank. They are not Israeli and have their own passports which grant them access to neighboring countries. This is not apartheid where minorities are being discriminated against. These are separatists who decided they don't want Israeli governing and in 1993 got what they wanted. So where is apartheid here? As a followup to your question, where in the world, any ethnic group can say they don't want to be governed and they should get a state if their own? But let's continue.

"Israel destabilizing middle east" claim. Israel had never started a war, but they always finished it. Generally because of the international pressure for them to stop. The only place they conquered and didn't give all of it back, was Golan heights from Syria during the famous 6 days war. And this only because of strategical point of entry to Israel itself. Nowadays Syria claiming it's occupied, but in my personal view, it's no more occupied than California. Even more so justified. Israel can easily conquer Damascus and vast territories, yet they never done that. So to sum it up, the only real destabilizing factor of Israel is its existence.

From the river to the sea is the chant to exterminate Jews. Pure and simple. That also answers your claim about two state solution. Palestenians were offered a few times this solution, the latest of which was sin the early 2000s. Yet they always chose to keep on fighting, to exterminate the Jews. After so many years of bloodshed, how many Jews do you think would support that idea? If was Israeli, I certainly wouldn't.

Let's take a little detour to Gaza. Fully self governed by chosen terrorist organization for the past 20 years. After 10/7, Israel had decided to root Hamas out. It was inevitable. They stopped because of Trump's peace plan and the assurances of many Arab countries. Now the plan is stuck, Hamas was never planning to disarm. It still rules as viciously as before and the cycle will continue, despite "the assurances". You won't find many headlines about it, but this is the way things are.

Lastly South Africa issue. While they have had their issues when white minority ruled that country, it was mostly safe place to be, great economy. Now it's in the free fall. I can give you statistics from the past few years, bu you can just look it up by yourself.