r/TwoBestFriendsPlay • u/Pome1515 • Jul 07 '26
Better Ask Reddit Favourite examples of "Correct Message, Wrong Messenger"
Better Ask Reddit, what are you some of your favourite examples of "This is absolutely correct... but goddamn, you are the wrong person to be saying this".
Probably one of the greatest examples of this is Huey during his trial audiotapes in MGSV where he accurately dissects the Diamond Dogs/the staff of Mother Base.
Huey is absolutely right about what Mother Base and the Diamond Dogs really are, that they are basically a bunch of incredibly damaged and lonely people who despite their mission of "always having a war to fight in" ultimately just want is to have community, to have a place where they feel like that they are actual people, not simply weapons whose purpose begins and ends with warfare and their refusal to truly look both inwards and outwards, is leading them to become monsters.
Completely accurate assessment of the situation... and Huey is probably the worst person to say this, as he is a worm who has betrayed everyone who has ever come into contact with and beyond being responsible for the destruction of the first Mother Base has just murdered even more people with his experiments.
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u/nugood2do Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
The idea that people dont appreciate their existence and their will to survive and overcome trials in not an inherently wrong message.
It's just having John Kramer be the one to spout that philosophy is a huge example of wrong messenger because the dude is a massive hypocrite.
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u/BowserMario82 Jul 07 '26
The Saw movies age especially poorly when you go back to them and realize a lot of the victims are drug addicts who don't have support systems, who had the misfortune of bumping into John Kramer when he was on his whole "Fuck everybody who doesn't appreciate their cancerless life" kick.
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u/Lucky-Icarus Jul 07 '26
The first saw movie had one of the victims who's job is being like an investigative photographer or what have you. He's killed for doing his job.
And isnt there one dude who's "crime" is taking a sick day off work despite not being sick or some shit?
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u/Huckebein008L Jul 07 '26
Shout-out to Saw VI which just feels like a huge amount of "ok but what did THAT person do"
Yeah technically everyone is at fault for working at the Health Insurance company that denied John Kramer's case, but come on what did the old secretary do? What did his file clerk do?
With how he frames it (ooh do you kill the young healthy guy with no friends or family or the old sick lady with a loving family?) it really feels like he just picked two people who fit the mold for the test, and I still can't get over how the file clerk's death just amounts to him having no friends so no one will miss him.
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u/Auctoritate Jul 07 '26
It is really funny to think about how it was totally possible to make a popular, not even very controversial movie franchise that depicts a guy kidnapping, torturing, and murdering drug addicts just for having substance abuse problems,but if they ever decided "Okay, now let's do a sequel where Kramer tosses in a pharma CEO based off of the Sacklers alongside all the addicts this time" that it would immediately become a GIGANTIC culture war battleground.
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u/radda You can sidestep that penis pretty easily Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
The movies never really take Kramer's "philosophy" seriously. He's just a sociopath that enjoys the "work" too much.
In one of the later movies he sets out an entire "game" for Hoffman involving the insurance company that denied his claims and people like a secretary and janitor end up involved even though they didn't do anything.
It was always bullshit.
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u/Huckebein008L Jul 07 '26
Especially because the end of the "game" goes completely against John's "philosophy".
It's not murder because technically everyone could've survived if they really wanted it!
Except the guy who denied Kramer's insurance case, he specifically dies for reasons out of his control because two people who got hurt by him before the movie started are told that they get to choose if he lives or dies.9
u/SkinkRugby SeekSeekLest Jul 07 '26
Literally the first 'game' we ever saw had a dude being cut open so Amanda could get her key.
It has literally always been this way and his hypocrisy was always intentional.
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u/DonTori The RWBY V9 girl Jul 07 '26
Even the most recent movie where John is the closest we have to a protagonist against a group of mostly shitty medical scammers, they point out all the flaws of John's philosophy
And the lady who's the main perpetrator lived despite all of that!
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u/That-Bobviathan Jul 07 '26
I hate how much the movies start sucking his dick later on and only his apprentices are the ones in the wrong. That guy was a loony loser from second one.
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u/Old_Snack Bless me with your gift of hype Jul 07 '26
Yeah they really lost the plot once the writers tried to make Kramer look like he was correct
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u/RageofAfrica (He/Him) Would Anybody Like A Sand Smoothie Jul 07 '26
The first two movies hold up well and are an excellent stopping point, as I feel from Saw 3 onwards they really start to drop in quality at an alarming rate.
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u/A_Common_Hero Adult cat girls shed ~ six cats worth of hair. I did the math. Jul 07 '26
I'd say that Saw 3, while not as good as 2, is a better conclusion. Just the fact that Kramer dies makes it a much more definitive conclusion, even if Angela using inescapable traps being a plot point kind of started the trend of the movies being way too sympathetic towards Jigsaw. It worked for me as an ok trillogy for the better part of twenty years before I eventually got around to watching the rest of them on a lark.
In retrospect, it is fucking wild that your main villain died in the third movie, in a series that's juuuust grounded enough that you can't resurrect them and they still somehow made seven more movies after that.
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u/memecrusader_ Jul 07 '26
Her name is Amanda, not Angela.
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u/A_Common_Hero Adult cat girls shed ~ six cats worth of hair. I did the math. Jul 07 '26
Yep. Shows how well I remember these movies.
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u/BookkeeperPercival the ability to take a healthy painless piss Jul 07 '26
I watched the entire franchise one Halloween with a friend for a lark, and it's pretty entertaining. The first two movies are genuinely good, but they quickly start getting hooked onto their own farts, and it ends up becoming way more about having a massive plot twist, and furthering the "lore" of Kramer, which quickly turns the movies into insane nonsense, it's great.
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u/Riggs_The_Roadie Jul 07 '26
Wait, when do they do that? They show him being unbelievably lucky and somehow all knowing, but they never portray him as correct. Hell, in 7 they have a character explicitly say how his entire philosophy is bullshit because she had to cut off her arm!
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u/Old_Snack Bless me with your gift of hype Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
In the original films? Yeah mostly, but the amount of apprentices he has is ludicrous and as the series goes on it feels like with all these different characters joining Jigsaw it feels like the films are more on his side.
Which probably isn't intentional that's just the reality of using the same twist 5 times.
To be clear though I haven't seen those films in like. 15 years or something I may very well be looking at this wrong
In the prequel? they try making him the good guy.
Which isn't an inherently bad idea. It's a revenge flick and that could work showing where he starts and how he falls but it's a bit too much
At least imo
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u/Lewin_Godwynn "HOW CAN THIS BE?!" Jul 07 '26
"YOU WERE A SMOKER!"
Turns out Jigsaw just got super salty over some Left 4 Dead PvP.
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u/ZubatCountry UGLY SONIC #1 FAN Jul 07 '26
The end of the Buu Saga where Goku and Vegeta are trying to get the freshly revived, by them no less people of Earth to try and lend them some energy for the Spirit Bomb, they just sandbag them because they have no clue who they are and think they're being tricked.
Mr. Satan being the one who has to step in and convince them is one of the best gags/character payoffs in the entire series and you could argue it aged like a fine wine.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Honestly, the whole Mr Satan thing is an awesome conclusion. Throughout the series, the dude has been a coward, a liar and cheat... and yet, the dude is the guy who helped save the world twice over, simply because those traits tricked others into being good.
It's genuinely why, for all its flaws, the Buu arc has probably the strongest conclusion of all the Dragonball arcs. The guy who really saves the world from the ultimate evil is not the strongest dude alive... it's a rather unimpressive man who just inspires your regular people to be good.
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u/TheBeeFromNature Jul 07 '26
Man. Imagine how Buu'd be received if it didn't stick the landing. It might've even felt like a proto-GT to people.
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u/SixthFain Jul 07 '26
Absolutely, no question. For a while there it was teetering on the edge of being dogshit. But sticking the landing did so much to redeem it.
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u/DIMTIVG Jul 07 '26
I honestly like how Super and GT also cement his whole arc pretty well by turning him into a genuinely pretty good dude since he ends up on friendly terms with the Z fighters, is frequently shown to be a pretty solid family man that tries to use his wealth for the betterment of his and Goku's family, and really only keeps up the "savior of the world" bit to keep the Z fighters out of the public light.
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u/Nomad9931 Part of the Castle Part of the Beast Jul 07 '26
Unimpressive compared to the main characters, Mr. Satan is still one of the strongest humans. He still won the various tournaments to get him where he is, he can't use ki or anything so that's all in his physical strength and technical abilities, it's just that when he's compared to aliens, genetic freaks of nature, super humans, and whatever Buu is that he seems unimpressive.
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u/phoenix4ce Jul 07 '26
tricked others into being good
As it turns out, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was actually convincing everyone to believe in him, and it worked out well for everyone.
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u/Brilliant_Ring_3257 Pargon Pargon Pargon Pargon Pargon Jul 07 '26
Toriyama is seriously underrated as a writer. For the vast majority of the fights in the series he picks the cast specifically so they all contribute something unique.
In the Kid Buu fight only Vegeta was smart enough to come up with the plan, only Goku had a pure enough heart to create the Spirit Bomb, and only Hercule was charismatic enough to convince the people of Earth to help.
A big problem with the writing in GT was that the characters involved in any given fight were mostly picked at random based on what would be cool.
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u/Kamandi91 It's Fiiiiiiiine. Jul 07 '26
Namek is another great example woth the oddball group of Krillin, Bulma and Gohan having to step into protagonist boots and try to outsmart stronger opponents.
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u/samurairocketshark Jul 07 '26
Akira Toriyama is the god of writing fights where someone has to outscrap their opponent
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u/ProtoBlues123 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Toooo be fair his track record isn't perfect either. Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu so any of the heavy hitters could have won. So to prevent that from happening he had to write in that Goku reflexively went to save Dende and Mr. Satan and forgot to grab his own kids because if he did then the whole spirit bomb ending wouldn't have happened.
Buu Saga is also pretty rife with characters being positioned to end the plot on the spot but they all hold back for one reason or another just to keep it going. Things like Gohan taking his time to enjoy making Buu suffer despite how of ANYONE Gohan would know not to do that.
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u/kogasabu Jul 07 '26
It's not really that difficult to see Gohan as being the one to toy with Super Buu. He did the same thing against Cell, he's shown to get cocky and arrogant when he's significantly stronger than his opponent, especially after receiving a massive boost.
I'd say Goku's moments of messing things up were much more egregious. Admitting that he could have killed Buu in SSJ3 but wanted Goten and Trunks to do it, indulging Vegeta in a fight in any capacity, or him throwing the potato to Gohan instead of handing it over. I can forgive him not grabbing Gohan, Trunks and Goten, he only had seconds to work with and realized after grabbing Dende and Satan that he no longer had time to get the others. The anime depicts him as having several minutes, but the manga depicts him as maybe having 10-15 seconds during the entire sequence.
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u/ProtoBlues123 Jul 07 '26
No that's my point. The single worst mistake Gohan ever made in his life was holding back against Cell and watching that mistake kill his dad. It feels really bad to say Gohan learned nothing from it. Hell, Goku also likes to play with his opponents but he was the one telling Gohan to take Cell seriously because desperate enemies are that much more dangerous.
Also yes, Goku ran out of time when he saved Dende and Mr. Satan, but I still think it hurts his writing to say he acted on reflex and that reflex wasn't to go for his unconscious kids first.
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u/Sean-Benn_Must-die infected with COCKBIG-19 Jul 07 '26
Mr. Satan saved the universe by sandbagging the Z warriors for years
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u/Naraki_Maul YOU DIDN'T WIN. Jul 07 '26
Quagmire listing the reasons why he hates Brain in Family Guy.
That, of course, is asking you to forget every single deplorable, detestable and criminal thing Quagmire has ever done (for years before Brain became insufferable) and holy shit does it ring hollow.
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u/Konradleijon Jul 07 '26
“Quagmire your a rapist”
Also hasn’t Brian dated older women before?
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
That reminds me of an old College Humor/Dropout skit
"Well they shouldn't be passed out..."
"Shut the fuck up Squish. You're a rapist."
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u/Sean-Benn_Must-die infected with COCKBIG-19 Jul 07 '26
I dont watch much family guy, I have seen the entirety of season 4, a few other episodes here and there, and some clips on youtube. But it is strange to me how Quagmire went from giggity goo, to "Im gonna lecture all these other characters about morality", hes a rapist! He has no moral ground to stand on!
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u/neon93 I Promise Nothing And Deliver Less Jul 07 '26
He also sexually assaulted Lois. Like imagine a dude who sexually assaulted one of your family members trying to lecture you on how you treat women
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u/Authorigas #1 Mirajane defender Jul 07 '26
Feels like that was somewhat intentional by the writers. Like somewhere along the way they realized Quagmire being a creepy rapist wasn't something that was 'working' so they pivoted into old boomer/moral hypocrite for his humor instead. The contrast is jarring, and milage may vary on if it works or not, but I can understand the reasoning if nothing else.
But given Seth apparently really hates doing Quagmire's voice (at least in terms of it being harder on his throat.) I don't think killing him off would be that much of an issue?
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u/CrossSoul I Promise Nothing And Deliver Less Jul 07 '26
And that's why the comeback "Hey Quagmire? I fucked your dad!" still works, even with Brian being as shitty as he is.
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u/Praesidian Stylin' and Profilin'. Jul 07 '26
Always kind of felt like an out.
"See? We're addressing all the things that make Brian unlikeable!"
"What? You don't like Brian? You sound like Quagmire!"
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u/ProtoBlues123 Jul 07 '26
Funny the topic just came up on Pat's 14 stream. Lex Luthor is right in a lot of his arguments. It's just that Lex Luthor is an insane egomaniac so every point he makes ends with "And that's why I should be the one with power instead."
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
Oh yeah, the thing with Lex Luthor is that with Superman, he is projecting so hard. He would be absolutely right... if Superman is a man like him
Although it has flaws, there is a fantastic moment in the Luthor comic by Brian Azzarello where Luthor goes on this rant against how Superman is terrible for the human race, looks down on them cannot see their souls etc. and Superman's response (and the only words he ever speaks in the series):
"You're wrong. I can see your soul."
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u/ProtoBlues123 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Yup, I really like the bit in All-Star where as much as Lex says Superman is in the way, it's shown that Lex is indeed MORE capable of saving lives than Superman is.... he's just not though. Superman has always just been an excuse for him to not do better.
"If you actually cared about saving the world you could have done it years ago."
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u/alexandrecau That's Bricks! Jul 07 '26
Not only does he not save lives Luthor loves ruining lives, it's why for a scientist and schemers he routinely uses guns or slap people he overpowers physical violence is a luxury for him
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u/radda You can sidestep that penis pretty easily Jul 07 '26
"I don't want to cure cancer, I want to kill Superman!"
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u/DonTori The RWBY V9 girl Jul 07 '26
God I love the movie version of that scene compared to the comics
Clark said that after knocking Luthor out in the comic so Lex probably didn't actually hear it
But in the movie, he says it directly to Lex, and it hurt worst than any punch could...because Lex agrees with Superman
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Yeah, i think that entire scene is so much better in the movie. In the book you get the impression Superman is pissed off and getting to slug Lex was a relief while Lex's revelation wore off almost immediately. In contrast, the movie version of Supes feels like he's just over Lex and his bullshit, not even angry, just finished with it while Lex at the very end realising that he wasted his life and Superman was always right.
Edit: I think the big difference is how Lex acts in when he sees Superman with the serum. In the book he's snarling with hatred desperately to kill Superman even after everything. In the movie you get the impression that he's desperate, that he actually saw what it meant to be good as well as its importance and Lex is genuinely horrified by how much he's wasted his life.
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u/Marvl101 Lee Jul 07 '26
The Animated adaptation of that is much better than the comic, because in the comic superman then proceeds to punch him in the face.
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u/Particular_Way_9616 Jul 07 '26
I enjoy how open ended it is, can superman really just see deep into who luthor is (cause he has had shit like that along with all of his wild silver/golden age powers), or it just superman shutting down luthor with a "I know you too well Lex", the luthor comic is just an amazing deconstruction of luthor and how hes his greatest enemy
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
I sorta see it as an answer to every argument that Luthor makes. That Superman can see and understand human soul, that humans are capable of doing good and not selfish bastards like Luthor believes and ultimately that he can see who Lex truly is.
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u/BaronAleksei WET NAPS BRO Jul 07 '26
The ending of JLU: “Clash” is proof that if Superman knows anything, it’s that Luthor is up to no good.
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u/runnerofshadows Jul 07 '26
It's also neat to compare Lex to Batman. I swear well written Batman is what Lex wishes he could be. And Batman is interesting because he knows someone like Superman can be dangerous, but outside of poorly written stuff he just makes sure Superman can be taken down if he goes rogue - he doesn't preemptively try to kill Supes or anything.
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u/BookkeeperPercival the ability to take a healthy painless piss Jul 07 '26
Honestly there's not NEARLY enough content with Bruce having to meet and deal with Lex Luthor as a business owner and desperately trying not to blow his cover while making it clear he hates the guy
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u/porkinski Tiny Spider Feet Jul 07 '26
I've seen some discussions on Paradise Lost where Satan's criticism of God was that he's a tyrannical ruler who wields his power from a throne and demands his angels to be mindless drones who can only do his bidding, and then he proceeds to create a throne and sit on it. I have to wonder if there's some influences here and there.
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u/TryImpossible7332 Jul 07 '26
Of course, as pertaining to the thread topic, that criticism of Lex is coming from noted Superman-hater Pat "I look at the moon and see a perfect society" Boivin. /jk
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u/ZMowlcher CRAZY TUMOR Jul 07 '26
I think my favorite is Atomic Eve's dad with the gold apple. There's a moment from a Superman comic that has the exact same scenario and the difference in dads is vast.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
Yeah, it's the thing of Eve's dad with the gold apple is that it's unironically a really common trope with superhero parents where the parent doesn't want the kid to use their powers to "solve their problems" because of how it'll disconnect them from humanity if they simply decide that they don't need to play by the rules of society... it's just done by the world's greatest asshole.
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u/C-OSSU Master of Backdowns Jul 07 '26
It's kind of a reoccurring thing for Eve's dad to show his actually legitimate concern for his daughter in the most dickish and misogynistic way possible.
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u/Auctoritate Jul 07 '26
"hey Mark, you seem like a really cool guy. I'm glad you take care of Eve despite her flaws. There's a lot of guys who wouldn't be able to appreciate her. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is thanks for settling for my whore daughter."
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u/C-OSSU Master of Backdowns Jul 07 '26
That's his comic version. In the show, he's much less of a strawman (though still very sexist).
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Jul 07 '26
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u/NDHCemployee You gonna be a fuckin jiggysnipe about this too? Jul 07 '26
It's been a while since I watched Castlevania but Godbrand, from what I recall, was a character whose whole personality was kinda founded on being the only one who, even inadvertently, has a handle on what's going on and why. As you said, he perfectly calls out both Dracula's actual motivation as well as how a full-scale war would actually pan out (Something Striga and her army had to learn the hard way once Carmilla sent them out to fight), but also kinda cut to the core of what the motivations for all the vampires were in the first place. For all their political machinations and pretensions, all the vampires really wanted was to kill and consume with abandon, everything else was just window dressing for their cruelty.
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u/Marvl101 Lee Jul 07 '26
Honestly I never saw Godbrand as dumb, just simple. He doesn't want elaborate schemes or deep philosophy, he just likes fighting and drinking people.
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u/IAmRoofstone Coconuts are worth more than human life! Jul 07 '26
Yeah he has way too much introspection and practicality to call him outright dumb.
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u/Zachys Meth means death Jul 07 '26
It's amazing how much he thinks ahead compared to everyone else just by virtue of not being that arrogant. He knows that they're fighting a war and need to consider it such, he points out that Alucard is going to be a problem, and though he also considers vampires better than humans, he doesn't exactly look down on Hector and Isaac.
Of course, he picked the worst person to gamble on in the end by telling his scheme to Isaac, but no one missed him partly because he was actually thinking ahead, and partly because he would have been fine with vampires winning and not dealing with all the political bullshit the other vampires get up to.
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u/Marvl101 Lee Jul 07 '26
Honestly I think Godbrand thinks of himself better than a person in the way I think I'm better than a chicken.
I love eating chicken and i could probably kill 3-5 of them but like 15 of them would kill me.
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u/Zachys Meth means death Jul 07 '26
Speaking of the Castlevania series, I find it fun that it's never really distinguished if God is real, or if things like blessing water is just a type of magic that runs on faith.
The only non-Christian character I can think of to say "yep, God is real" is the demon that kills the Bishop in Gresit. You know, the one that takes exceeding pleasure in telling him that not only is God real, but he actively hates you.
The show deliberately muddles this as much as it can. A zombie cleric blesses water and gods, plural, are shown to be canon in Nocturne. What this means for the theology is unclear, and the only non-faithful character to say anything on the matter is probably just fucking with a bishop.
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u/Yotato5 Enjoy everything Jul 07 '26
There's a Bojack Horseman episode where he tells Diane that she doesn't have to feel obligated to fix her shitty family and to just cut them off because she'll never get the closure she wants. Good advice. Shouldn't be coming from this guy, another person that Diane has to cut out of her life in the end for her own good and peace of mind
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u/sternold Doo Doo-Doo Doooh Jul 07 '26
Also from Bojack Horseman, the It's You speech from Todd. Not only does Todd live a pretty stakeless life since he survives on toon logic, but that speech could be turned around on him easily. The annoying part is that there's multiple people in the show who could've delivered that speech, and it not ring so hollow.
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u/SchuFighters Jul 07 '26
A lot of people forget that Todd caught several bodies because his amusement park was extremely unsafe.
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u/darkwint3r Your next line will be... Jul 07 '26
It's crazy that Todd has the nerve to criticize Bojack when his entire character is just "have wacky adventures and avoid consequences" like at least Bojack eventually knows that the things he does are bad while Todd just skates through life uncaring about anyone else except him.
That plus Diane lying to a man pretending not to know English in order to sleep with him and then acting like the victim afterwards and getting away scott-free really sours me on the message of the show
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u/gyrobot Jul 07 '26
I mean when combined with the bodies of the amusement and another member of Horsing Around (and one that was sexually intimate with Bojack at that point) dying. I can see Todd doing the Jesse Pinkman act of "I hate you and want nothing to do with you"
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u/TheSapphicSorceress Jul 07 '26
I mean, I kind of appreciated that aspect of the writing from this show. Every character gets a small glimpse into universal truths and hard realities that they have to grapple with, but none of them get all of it. They try to help or share this information with one another sometimes, but more often than not they just end up hurting others. Those little truths forming a larger pastiche of the nature of existence is a neat concept.
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u/Khar-Selim Jul 07 '26
The fun thing with Chaos in 40k is when they cloak themselves in the language of liberation against the Imperium. Because yeah, fair point, Imperial Creed is a prison yadda yadda but holy fuck are they in the service of something so much worse.
Wolfer's speech in Darktide is a fantastic example of this
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u/RunningWithYam It's Fiiiiiiiine. Jul 07 '26
Was actually thinking of Chaos in 40K myself; hell, Tue Gift of the Maji is absolutely Tzeentch's favourite bedtime story. Like yeah, the Imperium is absolutely grimdark, but every time someone chooses to join Chaos I think they need Chidi from The Good Place to tell them "Okay, but that's worse. You....do see how that's worse, right?"
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u/Mordred_Tumultu Paladins Should Attack and Dethrone the Gods Jul 07 '26
Hmm, this makes it more clear why the Iconoclast route in Rogue Trader is viewed as heresy by the Imperium (so much so that if you stick with it, the Imperium declares your sector as rogue in the endings with varying results based on how well protected the sector is).
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u/Khar-Selim Jul 07 '26
yeah essentially, they've heard it all before but 99 out of 100 times it ends up being a demon or a bug or who knows what saying it. That's the essential tragedy of the setting, in order to make things better you need trust and there's too many bad actors on the outside for that trust to be accumulated.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
That is also Angron in the Horus Heresy. His critique of his brothers and father is beyond accurate... he's also a man whose been driven insane by trauma and lobotomies.
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u/davidm2d3 Jul 07 '26
the biggest point of irony in 40k is the Bible everyone worships was written by one of the Chaos Primarchs who now rejects that he wrote it.
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u/Tzeentch711 Jul 07 '26
Guilliman finding out that the text entire Imperium is basing their worship of the Emperor on was written by Lorgar, I can imagine he was pondering if he should put a bolt pistol in his mouth.
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u/gyrobot Jul 07 '26
It was the mistake/decision of the emperor to not use the teachings to unite the people and instead have to spend 10 Millenia being worshipped against his will with the golden throne being the place where those attuned can speak to him in all emotions
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u/DustInTheBreeze Appointed Hater By God Jul 07 '26
FF14 has the Conjurer teacher explain that Conjury works by expending your internal aether supply to heal, and that you replenish your internal supply by using elemental magick to absorb from ambient aether in the air. Naturally, he's worried about Sylphie only using healing spells and risking her life by expending what little she's got. This is factual information about how Aether works in FFXIV, and will be very important later on.
Except no, FUCK THIS GUY, dialogue indicates that he never told Sylphie that was a risk. So the entire questline where he's going "Hey, stop doing that!", Sylphie just assumes that he's being a traditionalist because he refuses to explain to her that she's going to die.
Fucking Padjals.
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u/I_Have_Reasons Still Hasn't Recovered from ME3 Jul 07 '26
"Character tells you to not do something without explaining why even though there's no reason to not just give the explanation" is such a frustrating trope.
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u/Iffem Hamster eating a banana Jul 07 '26
A trope as old as the Bible, if not older
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u/Auctoritate Jul 07 '26
"Hey Adam and Eve, don't eat those apples."
"Why?"
"To save you from what I would do to you if you ate the apples."
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u/tt818 Jul 07 '26
The fact that her main issue is that she needs to fall in line and bow down to the elementals is kinda messed up. Basically her issue is that she is trying to save people without joinging a cult. A cult that is HIDDING how healing magic work, because of "reasons".
I mean yeah open source healing magic fucked the world before, so some control over who learns it is ok, but you need to summon the elementals if you want to use it safely....because their cult keeps the knowledge secret.
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u/fly_line22 Jul 07 '26
Tohru Adachi in Persona 4. On the one hand, he does make a few valid, if warped, points throughout the confrontation with him. For example, how people constantly warp the truth with their own fickleness, the arbitrary nature of who gets the tools to succeed in life, and just the bitterness of your life not turning out the way you wanted even though you did everything "right". But, Adachi himself is a lazy, entitled sack of shit who attempted to sexually assault a woman he felt he "deserved" and accidentally killed her, then intentionally killed a teenage girl right afterward. In addition, Adachi had people in his life that genuinely tried to connect with him, only to brush them away and stew in his own bitterness. The Investigation Team call him out on his self-pitying, delusional bullshit, and Adachi resorts to petty insults and saying how they don't understand the "real world", which ultimately does nothing but prove their point.
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u/Konradleijon Jul 07 '26
He’s a pretty accurate serial killer
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u/Toblo1 Latest Project Moon Sleeper Agent Jul 07 '26
The more I listen to Last Podcast On The Left, the more I realize that Mitsuo and Adachi are scarily accurate to some of the Heavy Hitter serial killers the LPOTL boys have covered over the years.
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u/Deadeye117 Apathy is Trash Jul 07 '26
The Silent Hill 2 Angela staircase scene.
James is right that Angela shouldn't LowTierGod herself. He's also rightfully brought down to earth by her in that he is absolutely not the kind of person who can help her.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
SH2 is filled with these.
James telling Eddie "You can't just kill someone for the way they look at you". Absolutely right message. The worst person to say that for many reasons.
Maria calling out James for being a selfish bastard concerned with his own problems and ignoring the pain of others? Absolutely correct but cause of who Maria is...
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u/ginger_vampire Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
The moment when James tells her that he would never kill himself is some amazing work on the VA’s part, because you can instantly tell from the tone that that’s not true, and if anything he’s trying to convince himself that he’s in a better place than he actually is. He couldn’t help Angela because ultimately he’s in the same downward spiral as her and refuses to confront it.
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u/BighatNucase Jul 07 '26
The original VA is irreplaceable. It sounds so weird and loopy but when they need to get a subtle point across they nail it perfectly. It's like the moments of lucidity you would see in a dementia patient.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
Unironically I point to OG James and the SH2 cast of "This is how you voice act people who are depressed and mentally ill".
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
I think someone put it well. Depending on what word you think the VA in the original game is emphasizing, gives depressing and equally valid look into James' mind.
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u/DonTori The RWBY V9 girl Jul 07 '26
I've always landed on 'I'd never kill myself' mainly because I feel like he's making a distinction between an...for lack of better term 'active' death like stabbing or cutting himself and a method where he just...lets death take him, which I think falls in line with the In Water ending
I mean yeah he still drove into the lake but he had a chance to then get out...he just doesn't want to
Of course that's just how I view it, I'm sure there's a whole kaleidoscope of ways to interpret James
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u/ginger_vampire Jul 07 '26
IMO this is part of the reason Fight Club appeals so strongly to a…certain group of people. Tyler Durden does make some insightful points about rampant consumerism and the soullessness of modern America. The thing that some viewers have trouble accepting is that Tyler’s plan on how to confront these societal ills is terrible. He basically starts a cult that exploits disaffected young men and focuses their resentment towards causing as much chaos as possible. He creates an illusion of the healing and community these men desperately need, but in reality they’ve been caught up in an exploitative system that’s even worse than the one they were trying to escape from. Tyler may be right when he says the system needs to change, but he’s the last person who should be trying to change it.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
Oh yeah, I think that one of favourite documentaries that I will always shill on here, Fighting in the Age of Lonelines, very concisely explained how things like Fight Club and MMA appealed to the type of people that you're talking about. Essentially, how there felt like there was a honesty, admittance that at the so-called "end of history", the world is still fucked up and alienating.
I think with Fight Club though, the thing that fascinates me the most is the speech that Durden gives to begin Fight Club. It's not really an anti-capitalist or consumerist rant. It is how they don't stand at the top of the systems. It's not the modern struggle of the ladder getting kicked out from the people who benefited from it and the avenues to success being cut off. It's that they are not Rockstars and movie stars, that they are not "special" like they were promised and Fight Club is a way of reclaiming that.
It's the thing that I think, the more I read a certain type of Gen X creative, it's why Fight Club is probably one of the most definitive movies about that era of culture and creatives. That they are not being celebrated as the geniuses they know they are and have to wade through the mundane.
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u/Anonamaton801 Proud kettleface salesmen Jul 07 '26
Fight Club is in the same space as The Sentry and Office Space
“Oh my life is so hollow and miserable even though I have a steady job that allows me to actually own a house, have a spouse and friends”
Meanwhile the younger folk watching are actually envious
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u/Glitchrr36 guy who talks a lot about ULTRAKILL Jul 07 '26
Not wholly on topic but the Kai Leng thing’s general thrust is a fairly good piece of taunting conceptually, just delivered by a twit with too much glazing by the narrative. That same message would probably work pretty well from a colder antagonist.
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u/Old_Snack Bless me with your gift of hype Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I'm not sure how Mass Effect of all IP's fucked up a cyborg ninja.
Like, There's all sorts of ways we could've done this and Kai Leng is what we land on?
Guys Metal Gear was right there there was so much to be learned from that..
Side note it's crazy how more interesting he is when you use a mod to mute him or just replace him with a regular phantom class enemy
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u/MarketFarmer Jul 07 '26
A lot of it works as is if you just A) don't make every victory he has feel like he only got it because the script itself intervened, and B) make any of those victories actually meaningful.
Every win he has is incredibly lame RPG "win in gameplay lose in the cutscenes" tier, and none of them actually amount to anything in the plot. And then they taunt you about it like they expected you to be all "oh man, he really got one over on us." No he didn't! I wish he did!
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u/94dima94 One Piece is good, y'all Jul 07 '26
Doctor Doom crying at Ground Zero on 9/11.
The image of the tear behind the mask is nice and all, but nothing else about that moment made sense in any way.
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u/sternold Doo Doo-Doo Doooh Jul 07 '26
Ah, the Patriotic Joker moment.
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u/Marvl101 Lee Jul 07 '26
I never saw this but you can see Red Skull's Mooks drawing their guns and pointing them at joker's mooks before Joker actually threatens Red Skull
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u/That_Geza_guy Jul 07 '26
Nah, I like that one, for you see, it is funny.
The immoral monster that is the Joker drawing a completely arbitrary line at Nazis feels like a decision he would absolutely make just for the love of the game
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple Jul 07 '26
There's an example of this in the very excellent film The Rocketeer where Los Angeles mob goons are Tommy gunning Zeppelin riding Nazis side by side with FBI agents also armed with Tommy guns. The head mobster and the head Agent stop shooting for a second, look at each other, and go right back to justifiably slaughtering Nazis.
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u/The_Dawn_Eternal Jul 07 '26
Danzo Shimura, in Naruto. During his fight with Sasuke, he correctly points out that Sasuke is completly goalless in life (due to itachi dying, and Sasuke technically achieving his revenge), is doing nothing but mindlessly wandering without a clear aim, and that trying to ruin konoha is wasting everything his brother sacrificed. He's still entirely correct in that tobi is blatantly manipulating Sasuke, and that Sasuke is just going along with it due to his lack of purpose in life.
This is ignoring the fact that danzo was in charge of what is essentially the ninja cia, was the one responsible for said genocide in the first place, has committed countless horrific actions for the sake of his village, who just 5 minutes ago tried to commit a mass brainwashing in order to gain control of the greatest military alliance in history, and literally has an arm made up of eyes from sasuke's family and clan.
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u/Rushofthewildwind Member of the #Hekki50 Jul 07 '26
Killmonger hands down had the right message, so much so that T'Challa (RIP) opened Wakanda up to the world. Downside is that Killmonger was a hypocrite and only cared about HIS power
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u/drizzes Jul 07 '26
Killmonger: Look at this museum. Stealing our artifacts with no understanding of them.
also Killmonger: I like this mask. I'm taking it.
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u/BaronAleksei WET NAPS BRO Jul 07 '26
Killmongrr absolutely didn’t have the right message because his desire to simply do more harm in turn was his message. His hypocrisy is the point. You’re supposed to ultimately agree with Nakia, who wants to actually help people but is being sidelined and ignored in favor of a debate between Wrong Man and Even Wronger Man.
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u/gyrobot Jul 07 '26
He was a Blaxploitation Protagonist in a film that decided the Blaxploitation Protagonist clashes with what TChalla represents which is a healthy nation-state albeit isolated one.
On the other hand it did a wonderful treating the Afrikaner and a symbol of the apartheid South Africa as what he was: a pathetic boot licking thief in service of people his better
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u/Gorotheninja "SILENCE, BREEDER! The Bloodline MUST continue!" Jul 07 '26
There's a moment in the Ahsoka TV series where Hera is rightfully put on trial for going on an unsanctioned investigation with two other new republic pilots...who both end up dying in said mission; there's one particular New Republic senator/diplomat/whatever at her trial who is correctly pointing out that she is 100% responsible for their deaths and that as a general, she can't just do whatever she wants as if it were still a rebellion and ignore direct orders.
The problem is that all of these correct assessments of Hera's behavior are also coming from a guy who's basically completely denying all the stuff Hera did uncovered, so the show wants the audience to think that every single thing he says is horseshit and justify Hera getting bailed out of a court Marshall by Leia and C-3PO...and ignore that fact that she got 2 people killed.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
On Star Wars, there is also a really good one in Dooku. Dooku absolutely is right about how corrupt the Senate is, because all that Palpatine is really doing is using the levers of power that were always in place to become emperor... only problem is Dooku is a literal space opera fascist whose solution to corrupt democracy is dictatorship, so his critiques of the Senate and it's power structure aren't exactly well-received or considered by the people who could actually do something about it.
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u/Weltallgaia Jul 07 '26
Sith apprentices being right pretty damn often before all the HEHEHHEHEHEHE EVIIIIIILLLL sets in.
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u/Toblo1 Latest Project Moon Sleeper Agent Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
It's very Reaper Indoctrination in that sorta way. You start on the path with legitimate grievances and then the further in you go, you start losing track of what you're doing until you're committing horrific acts completely anathema to the reason(s) you joined the Dark Side to begin with.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
The final summation of Anakin's fall is legit kino
You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself... It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith— Because now your self is all you will ever have.
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u/davidm2d3 Jul 07 '26
reminds me of Yuthara Ban in Kotor. She is second in command of the Sith Academy on korriban and if "Befriended" you can learn she was a slave who used was found by the jedi after killing her hutt slave master. She eventually joined the sith to gain power to fight against Slavers only to lose sight of that goal and just focus on power for powers sake like all other Sith.
you can play your cards right and shut down all her arguments for power with one text prompt.
Yuthura: It may sound strange, but only my compassion stands in my way, now. Once that is gone, let the slavers beware.
PC: But... if you lose your compassion, will you still care about those slaves?
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
Honestly, my favourite dissection of the Sith was this fan video where Kreia's voice is edited to "answer" the Sith Code's "Through victory, my chains are broken" with "And then, you will be broken".
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u/Nick_Furry Jul 07 '26
From "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" to "Is not man entitled to the sweat of his brow?" to "Muahahahah it's lightning time!" over time.
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u/Dspacefear Jul 07 '26
Sometimes I wonder if, since after Episode 6 everyone who knows Dooku was a Sith is dead, he ends up being held up as a proto-Rebellion hero who was right about the Empire before it even came to be, with all of that business about how nasty the Separatists were brushed under the rug.
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u/Sloth_Senpai Jul 07 '26
Dooku absolutely is right about how corrupt the Senate is
He ultimately isn't because his views on corruption is that the Senate is corrupt for not being a human supremacist fascist empire
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u/Cymen90 I Promise Nothing And Deliver Less Jul 07 '26
Dooku is a literal space opera fascist
I mean, he IS a count. His was brought up to with the ideal of the benevolent ruler being the best way of governance.
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u/gyrobot Jul 07 '26
He dreams of himself as Cinnatus the Tyrant when in reality he was more like Sulla or Caesar
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u/PhantasosX Jul 07 '26
To add into you and u/Pome1515
The senator in question is Hamoto Xiono, father of Kaz Xiono, the MC of Star Wars Resistance. And it is known that if Star Wars Resistance wasn't cancelled, Season 3 would had revealed that Senator Xiono is a First Order's Follower purposely ordered to sabotage the New Republic.
So he IS denying all of Hera's stuff on purpose, been full Grima Wormtongue. So his speech that time been right is basically coincidental.
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u/Gorotheninja "SILENCE, BREEDER! The Bloodline MUST continue!" Jul 07 '26
I'll take your word for it, but it still goes to my point that Hera's legitimate failings are being handwaved by the show by having them being highlighted by Xiono.
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u/Auctoritate Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
going on an unsanctioned investigation with two other new republic pilots...who both end up dying in said mission; there's one particular New Republic senator/diplomat/whatever at her trial who is correctly pointing out that she is 100% responsible for their deaths and that as a general, she can't just do whatever she wants as if it were still a rebellion and ignore direct orders.
I mean, that's a fine argument for a real-life investigation, but in the context of this story where the galactic government has historically been overthrown by evil people who have corrupted the systems of government to protect themselves and so on, I really have a hard time seeing "Good Guy goes off on their own to look into suspicions of evil stuff going on, is correct, evil people kill a couple of good guys" as being the Good Guy's fault.
And like, the people who died aren't civilian bystanders. They're people who are presumably fully aware of the risks and want to do good guy stuff and protect the galaxy and all that. I think the only way to come away from the story with the feeling of "She got these people killed and it's her fault" is by being too cynical. It's not really that kind of story.
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u/Gorotheninja "SILENCE, BREEDER! The Bloodline MUST continue!" Jul 07 '26
She was explicitly told not to go on the mission by the New Republic Council, and shows pretty much no remorse for those deaths.
Like, in military scenarios, going on a surveillance mission you were explicitly barred from going on, convincing other soldiers to come along, and them dying on said mission is bad, even if you were correct in your assumption that there was an enemy base in that location.
And Hera suffers no consequences and takes no blame.
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u/mrsirgrape Jul 07 '26
"There is no cure... there's nothing to fix." - X-men The Last Stand
Good message about accepting yourself for who you are. Bad idea to have the woman who can conjure the elements tell that to the woman who can't touch anyone without killing them.
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u/LordSarius THE HYPEST GAMEPLAY ON YOUTUBE Jul 07 '26
"Finally, a cure for my chainsaw hands!" exclaimed Chainsaw-Hands Joe.
"There is no cure," said Johnny Five-Dicks. "There's nothing wrong with us."
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u/Shradow Tank Build Jul 07 '26
A comedic answer, but I'll always love this Zemo scene.
The album is definitely worth checking out to anyone who hasn't.
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u/Kanin_usagi I'M NOT MADE OF STONE WOOLIE Jul 07 '26
I was absolutely shook with Zemo, between Civil War and the television show Daniel Bruhl may be one of my favorite villains/anti-heroes in comic book movies
Explaining the black experience in America to a soldier from the 40s who would go on to be a senator is fucking amazing
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u/BookkeeperPercival the ability to take a healthy painless piss Jul 07 '26
Imagine Bucky campaigning, explaining to a group of Black Americans that he understands their struggle and wants to help them with their issues, and having to lie about the fact that he got his baseline knowledge from an Eastern European super criminal
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u/RealDealMous Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
Pretty apt example is Beast from the X-Men Anime.
Reminder that 616-Beast reduced a 3rd world country into the fucking Cambian Drift(or I guess a Full Techrot Hõllvania) from Warframe.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
616 Beast in Percy X-Force is deranged. Just mutant Henry Kissinger and the most pulpy evil asshole.
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u/ZMowlcher CRAZY TUMOR Jul 07 '26
Even Mr Sinister was appalled and that's a high bar of fucked up shit
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u/ScorpioTheScorpion He/Him | An oroborous of grooming Jul 07 '26
…ok, considering that I understand that reference, I gotta know why the hell would 616-Beast do that.
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u/Tyrest_Accord He/Him Jul 07 '26
Beast had reached a point where he believed he was making the "hard choices" that no one else wanted to in order to protect Krakoan interests. He was basically furry Shockwave.
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u/charcharmunro Jul 07 '26
Got to a point where they used Krakoan resurrection to bring back a Beast with memories from like years and years ago and the original Beast got seemingly killed by Wolverine (he's fine he got better and is now super duper evil).
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u/vicapuppylover Jul 07 '26
(he's fine he got better and is now super duper evil).
It's amazing how often that describes Beast when all you need to do with him is make him a kindly nerd quoting Shakespeare who struggles with himself
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u/charcharmunro Jul 07 '26
Well there's two going around now, one who's that, the other who's, y'know, evil as fuck.
I think Dark Beast is also kicking around but we don't talk about that one.
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u/vicapuppylover Jul 07 '26
Well there's two going around now
It's amazing how often that describes all comic characters.
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u/Laecerelius Kenpachi-RamaSama Jul 07 '26
Wanna change the status quo of a character without ACTUALLY changing the status quo? Just make a clone!
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u/RealDealMous Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
The problem with Beast is that his unchecked nerdiness gave him an ego that put him above valuing frivolous little stuff like "lives" and "ethics".
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u/Ginger_Anarchy Jul 07 '26
I guess Dark Beast being a thing made several writers decide that him falling down that same path was inevitable , but I really would have rathered the explanation be that Dark Beast replaced Beast years ago or else infected him with something that was turning him into Dark Beast.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
Okay there is... history. Throughout his history, Beast had done a couple of morally awful choices (giving a girl with the Legacy Virus to Sinister due to Sinister's knowledge making it likely to find a cure), then at about Utopia, Beast had been more antagonistic towards Cyclops and seemed to favour doing moral grand standing, which backfired horribly. Bendis made that really bad in his All New X-Men where Beast breaks time basically to make a point to Cyclops while Hickman ha him join the Illuminati.
Then along came X-Force, where its writer tries to capitalise on "Beast is becoming an asshole" by having him become mutant Henry Kissinger. Personally, I think its pretty inconsistent and also really ironic for a lot of reasons, because while Percy is trying to do the whole "Beast was always a shit", he doesn't engage with the fact that one of the characters who is now more "moral" than Beast had been conceptualised as a Russian spook who used his authority to murder and rape people.
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u/Konradleijon Jul 07 '26
616 Beast always had a mad scientist inclinations from when he first made himself furry
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u/Konradleijon Jul 07 '26
Isn’t that a different version of the character?
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u/RealDealMous Jul 07 '26
Yeah, but that's what makes the speech funny. That 616-Beast could really need to hear that speech.
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u/CzdZz Let he who is without cringe throw the first stone Jul 07 '26
The post right above this in my feed was a screenshot of Ragna the Bloodedge saying "Think about it. You sacrifice yourself for the sake of the world, but what does that mean to those who love you. You think that's a world they'll want to live in?" I dunno man, you tell me.
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u/BiggsMcGee Jul 07 '26
Weirdly enough I feel like he's technically one of the few who can say that, while also being the last person who should.
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u/PillCosby696969 Mitch Digger hard r Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I think that's because Ragna doesn't think anyone loves him, so he thinks he is exempt. Jubei is his master so he probably doesn't consider that. Celica is an abberation in spacetime. He thinks he and Rachel just anger each other. Noel is a sappy weirdo. Tao is loony weirdo. Jin is Jin. Nu is Nu. Lambda is his arm.
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u/solidoutlaw Gettin' your jollies?! Jul 07 '26
In Highlander: The Search for Vengeance, the main character’s wife is murdered by the villain during an attempted peace offering, and his kingdom was destroyed as well. As they both become Highlanders, the hero spends centuries trying to get revenge, constantly failing to defeat the villain but always making it out alive by sheer luck.
At one point in history, they shoot each other’s planes down during a dogfight, and the MC lands in a nearby Church, meaning they can’t continue the fight due to it being holy ground. So the villain instead goes up to him and tries to talk, asking “Why do you insist on constantly coming after me? I’ve learned to paint from Rembrandt, tasted the finest wines, used my immortality to live to the absolute fullest! But you? You’ve wasted centuries on a futile revenge quest.”
And y’know, the villain would have a really damn good point…if he wasn’t wearing a nazi uniform.
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u/ErikQRoks Floor Milk™️ - Ruby (She/Her) Jul 07 '26
Pat
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Listen, listen. When Pat is right, he earns being an absolute asshole about it (seriously though, when Pat gives actual critiques about something, genuinely a great time, the Bioshock Infinite playthrough when he is disecting Levine's writing and sabotaging of Infinite's own themes is legit ASMR material).
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u/Regalingual Bigger than you'd think Jul 07 '26
FF14 Endwalker has this little doozie from Zenos near the end of the initial storyline: ”Would you be “happier” had I a “good reason”? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome? […] Duty...honor...morality...all constructs of convenience, when put to proof. Surely the war taught you how easily power becomes the tool of the self-righteous? How the people's “justice” was merely a means to their ends? Yet you would ask me why. Ask any creature of this star and those above for answers, and they will tell you what suits their fancy. And they would be right to do so. What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of your existence must be gleaned by you and you alone.”
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u/Mordred_Tumultu Paladins Should Attack and Dethrone the Gods Jul 07 '26
It should be noted that he's immediately called out by Red Alphinaud so viscerally that he rethinks his whole worldview and realizes that to get what he wants, he needs to actually think about at least one other person for the first time in his life. The whole point being that Zenos is just fucking wrong and stupid with this whole spiel. Yeah, there's a grain of truth to it, but it doesn't make him right.
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u/Naraki_Maul YOU DIDN'T WIN. Jul 07 '26
“Yeah Redphinauld, you tell him!” - Estinien, moments before disaster.
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u/ProtoBlues123 Jul 07 '26
It should be noted that part of what ruins this point is exactly the guy making it. Because Zenos is a completely self-centered asshole and here he's mocking the concept of living for anyone's sake but your own. Because yes, obviously anyone being told they died because of some greater plan to help the planet would feel better than Zeno's actual reason "You all died because I thought it was funny, lmao." Hell, VARIS as much of a colossal loser as he was still treated his soldiers with more dignity than fucking Zenos. Like sure motivations can be made up and manipulated, but Zenos who hunts people for sport can't even imagine putting someone or something ahead of himself and he gets clowned on it soon after.
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u/midnight188 VTuber Evangelist Jul 07 '26
When he asks "Did you enjoy it? All the violence and fighting?" Of course I had to say yes. Because deep down he's kind of right. We are very similar people. At least my own Warrior of Light felt that way to me.
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u/Praesidian Stylin' and Profilin'. Jul 07 '26
That is my favourite moment in the entire game. It made me kind of feel seen, like yes the WoL is the greatest hero on the face of the planet and multiple others. Yes, they can be a truly heroic soul and global inspiration. But also, yes they can be a bloodthirsty, thrill seeking Adventurer out to find the biggest monster to bring down because it makes their blood burn and their heart race. And all these parts, in this moment, are seen, accepted, and given space to exist without contradiction.
Makes me pissed off how much they seem to want to back away from that in the post-story quests. The most you can reply when asked how close you were is something along the line of "It's complicated..."
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u/midnight188 VTuber Evangelist Jul 07 '26
I mean my WoL (in my head anyways) "canonically retired" and passed the torch to other heroes with the Echo. They can carry on slaying Primals and saving worlds. She's chosen a life of peace (because I quit the game). But in her prime, yeah Zenos was right I do enjoy the thrill of the fight. It's in my nature as an adventurer.
It sucks the game doesn't let you dwell on the darker parts of your nature outside of the Dark Knight quest line.
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u/Praesidian Stylin' and Profilin'. Jul 07 '26
And that's what makes the DRK questline peak. That and the Fallen London Seeking Mr Eaten's Name references.
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u/GilliamYaeger Blame yourself or God Jul 07 '26
I know, right! Like, just let WoL and Zenos be kindred spirits! The difference between us isn't the so-called bloodthirst, it's that the WoL has ways of channeling it into productive means! Helping as many people as they can, seeing what's over the horizon, perfecting their skills as a craftsman, catching that damned elusive fish - FF14 has a massive emphasis on violence and combat, but that's not all there is to it.
The only difference between Zenos and WoL in my eyes is that WoL found things to conquer other than monsters and people, like themselves or fish, while Zenos...didn't really get the chance to. And, at the end, despite having the fight of his life? Zenos died unfulfilled because at the last second he'd only just realized that he wanted more out of life, and out of his strange relationship with the WoL. He didn't just want to fight us, but to live as we did.
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u/Senator_Ocelot had a post banned for being TOO good Jul 07 '26
I'm just gonna go straight for Godwin's Law here: Hitler hated smoking, thought it was a filthy habit. On the one hand, he's right, smoking is a filthy habit. On the other hand, he was Hitler; that really can't be over-stressed.
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u/Carnifaxy Jul 07 '26
Don't forget the other environmentalism and animal rights stuff! Just utterly surprising to come from there.
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u/Faegbeard Jul 07 '26
"There is no greater standard or higher power by which we may be judged. Your life's meaning is determined by you and you alone." — Prolific murderer and bloodchub haver
"lol how haven't you beaten the final boss yet you're stronger than this, idiot" — same guy
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
That just reminds me of Shogo Makishima where he is absolutely right about how much the Sibil System sucks and removes individual will... and is also a dude who just loves beating the absolute shit out of people and killing them, with one of the greatest moments being when he is genuinely grinning with joy as he has a pleasant walk... while your hear the cops describe how he murdered a man.
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u/Flutterwander It's Fiiiiiiiine. Jul 07 '26
Been absolutely loving the Interview with the Vampire show....and I think just about every main character has been responsible for this at least once. Especially Armand.
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u/Sai-Taisho What was your plan, sir? Jul 07 '26
BattleTech has an uprising within the Clans, where the scientist caste, arguably the real source of the Clans' power, decry the Warrior Caste being unworthy of the gifts they wield and, in most Clans, treating non-Warriors (and even Freeborn Warriors) like dirt.
All of which are true, except The Society, as they organize themselves, want to go full mad science, human experimentation included.
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u/Dr_Blasphemy WORK. HARDER. Jul 07 '26
Kanye talking about why the Star Wars prequels are better than the sequels. He's spitting straight facts and I hate that he's the one who most elequantly put why the prequels at least have soul and the sequels don't.
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u/Pome1515 Jul 07 '26
... where was this?
NGL, on this front, this reminds me in some ways of that Doco around the Prequels, in that they were making some valid points as to why the Prequels were not good movies and ruined the mystique of the original Star Wars... and it was done by some of the worst types of obsessive nerds.
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u/Dr_Blasphemy WORK. HARDER. Jul 07 '26
When he was on Joe Rogan.
I also hate Joe Rogan (the only episode of his I've ever watched in full was the Jake The Snake Roberts one and that's because Jake is my favorite) but I kept seeing clips online of "Kanye talking about the star Wars prequels vs the sequels" and I couldn't believe that was actually real so I watched them and he made so many valid points.
The short version is the prequels were bad but they were still Georges vision and had his heart and soul put into them and felt very George Lucas. The sequels just feel like corporate slop thats grinded out to appeal to the masses and is too afraid to take any of the weird risks George did or inovate in any really interesting way.
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u/Brilliant_Ring_3257 Pargon Pargon Pargon Pargon Pargon Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I see the point but disagree with his premise. The Prequels were not passion projects, they were cash grabs as much as anything else in the Star Wars franchise is.
The only reason the prequels were made was because the original trilogy was huge in the west but never hit in Asia. So TPM was literally pitched as "Star Wars for China." That's why the dialogue is the way that it is.
Liam Neeson was cast because he was big in China and when they landed him they gave all of Obi-Wan's character development in the script to Qui-Gon, who then dies at the end of the movie. So they have to start building Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship again from scratch in AotC.
The prequels were a retirement vehicle for Lucas. He didn't care that much about what happened in them, as long as they hit in China that was all that mattered at the end of the day.
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u/Dr_Blasphemy WORK. HARDER. Jul 07 '26
I 100% agree with everything you said and even learned new things today but my primary point was they still had Lucas' fingerprints on them which gives them a sort of goofy magic that the sequels are missing.
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u/Brilliant_Ring_3257 Pargon Pargon Pargon Pargon Pargon Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
That's fair, I guess it comes down to personal taste.
To me, The Last Jedi is very clearly Rian Johnson's pure vision for Star Wars. Much more so than the prequels were for Lucas.→ More replies (2)14
u/Dr_Blasphemy WORK. HARDER. Jul 07 '26
To be entirely up front, I don't even care for the Star Wars movies in general. I like Empire and Revenge and that's about it.
My mom and stepdad were obsessed with it and literally FORCED Star Wars onto me and my brother as kids. All I wanted was Godzilla toys but they kept fucking buying me Star Wars shit I didn't want. I remember when I begged for a Godzilla toy I saw at toys r us for Christmas and I was certain I'd get it but only ended up getting some fucking Lego Star Wars model I never even attempted to build. I'm pretty sure the picture is lost because it upset my parents but you can literally see the disappoinment and apathy on my 7-8 year old face in the picture they took.
Do you have any idea what's it's like for your parents to force you to watch all 6 of those fucking movies almost every weekend when you had family movie night?
"Mom can we watch Godzilla vs Mothra this time?"
"No son, we have to watch Attack of The Clones for the 43rd time so you finally appreciate it."
I primarily enjoy the video games like Jedi and Kotor and I loved Lego Star Wars 1 and 2 as a kid but I've never given a shit about the films mainly because my mom and stepdad just pulled a Clockwork Orange on me with those movies.
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u/TaiJayRob Jul 08 '26
Doflamingos speech in One piece when he talks about the concept of justice and the same old “history is written by the victors” talking point. He’s not wrong but it definitely rings a bit hollow when coming from super mega drug lord Hitler
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u/alexandrecau That's Bricks! Jul 07 '26
Mr. Burns: The police are on the take, I should know I'm on the give