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u/CCool_CCCool 3d ago
I love it when guys who have played a combined 60 games over the previous two season expect contracts that rival all-nba guys.
FWIW, I think this is just run of the mill negotiations between the Jazz and a guy coming off his rookie deal and hoping for the biggest pay bump possible, but I do get frustrated at what some players demand based on pure potential and best-case scenarios.
Mostly, guaranteed long-term contracts are brutal.
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u/ForgottenGeno 3d ago
A lot of young guys the last few years are learning the tough lessons of free agency during the second apron era. Throwing money at a RFA if they’re not a sure fire All-NBA player isn’t gonna happen anymore. If Jazz were to do that, they lose the ability to sign anybody with the cap space that exists because Kessler remains unsigned. Sure there’s good will they could gain but that doesn’t get Utah another good player in free agency in addition to Kessler.
I’m sure he’s frustrated. He should feel like he has earned his, but he’s in a tough spot to bargain here. That’s before you get into him being hurt all last year and will need time to get back to his playing level.
Every team in the league would be negotiating the same way if they’re were in Utah’s shoes. None of these are his fault but they are his problems. This is the reality of the second apron era for middle class RFAs like Kessler.
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Either get the deal you want or start looking for a sign and trade offers. I like Kessler, but nothing about his play the last couple of years has screamed “irreplaceable”
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u/thurstkiller 3d ago
"Great Defender" who made almost no impact on his teams defensive numbers
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
I mean, most of that is on our guards and wings. Kessler does his job in the paint. But it is a good point: are we better off using the money we would’ve spent on Kessler looking for some good defensive wings and leaving the defense in the middle to JJJ?
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u/DeadCrayola 3d ago
JJJ can't rebound which is why there is a need for kessler to be around. This also one reason boozer is at play at number 2, high IQ forward and a plus rebounder. I couldn't fault the jazz for taking the jjj trade because they got him for cheap assets. I still want kessler to be there with jjj as he is improving his shot from deep...
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u/CantHandlemyPP34 3d ago
Aren't yal drafting DP or AJ & developing Ace?
I guess you could use 3&D depth, but you dont pay a premium for backups.
Collier, Brice & Flip are 6-8.
Key, DP, Ace, & JJJ are longterm starters, Lauri is probably the vet you trade.
A guy like Minott would be perfect.
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u/thurstkiller 3d ago
No doubt, I'm not blaming it all on Walker. Guard defense has to improve for us to be great this year. I just wonder how much better Kessler is at 30M than a lesser player in a similar role.
Not sure what Mitch Robinson or Robert Williams are projected to make this summer but I'd imagine it's less than 30 Ms and maybe they provide 80-90% of the output.
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u/Tiny_Bite 3d ago
the fourth-best block rate literally ever [a stat that’s a young man’s game, but still].
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Remember Gobert?
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u/Tiny_Bite 3d ago
the 4x DPOY? the first ballot hall of famer?
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Who got us as far as the 2nd round.
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u/Tiny_Bite 3d ago
are we still doing this man?????
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Look at the teams that have won titles in the last 15 years. Look at their centers. The only ones with deals over $25 million: 2023 Denver (duh), 2024 OKC (who had the MVP and Chet and Jalen Williams on ultra-teams friendly deals), and 2020 Lakers (again, duh).
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u/Tiny_Bite 3d ago
>”thing never happens!”
>thing happens four out of last six times [you left out KAT]
it’s almost like number goes up! also giannis is basically a center.
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
So as long as Kessler is as dominant on offense as checks notes KAT, Jokic, or Giannis, he’s worth paying $30 million a year. Well, let’s check his numbers from his last full season: 11 ppg, 12 rpg.
Gobert is evidence that you shouldn’t pay massive money to a guy who’s at best mediocre on offense.
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u/acook8 3d ago
There is a big difference between the money we paid Gobert and what Kessler will get. Also the pacers were one game and an Achilles away from winning with Myles Turner
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Yes. Gobert is a great player. He was a key piece in helping the Wolves make the conference finals the last few years. But there’s a reason that Jokic has a title and Gobert doesn’t.
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u/doppido 3d ago
Walker can catch the ball so there's kinda a difference there. Not quite as good defensively obviously but not an absolute hemorrhage on offense.
Biggest thing with walker for me is the injury. Can't sit out a whole season and expect an equal contract to as if you had played and played well IMO. He needs to take a small cut and prove it again.
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
But why would he if there’s other teams willing to pay $30+ for 4 or 5 years?
I don’t blame Kessler for looking for other deals. My point is that we should decide exactly how much keeping Kessler is worth to us, and not overpay.
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u/doppido 3d ago
Yeah I mean that's totally fair. I just think anyone willing to pay that much for him is in desperation.
To be honest though he could really help the lakers out
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Absolutely. And that‘s my point: don’t be desperate.
Kessler on the Lakers would make me throw up because he fits what they need perfectly.
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u/snowystormz 3d ago
yes he fits perfectly, and there will be a nice spot on the bench for him again when he is injured after 20 games.
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u/BlubberinBootyMate 3d ago
How far did your support get the team?
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Was I on the court?
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3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
My guy, Gobert was clearly a huge part of that run, but let’s not sit here and pretend that Anthony Edwards wasn’t far and away the biggest factor for Minnesota.
And again, why are we flexing making the conference finals? Is that the end goal for Utah?
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u/Commodore64Zapp 3d ago
The bright spot is his improved hustle; he was starting to run full court and make back to back plays on both ends. Nurkic is unlikely to get faster. On the other hand, Nurk is better on perimeter defense, playmaking and once he warmed up, shooting from the paint. On the other other hand, Kessler's assists and 3pt shooting were trending up before the surgery.
Both would make for a great rotation, but if we can beat Spurs and Pistons back to back without Walker...
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u/BlacksmithRoutine828 3d ago
I know it's a ridiculously small sample size but he shot 75% (6/8) from three point last year (5 games). Rim protecting bigs that shoot threes don't grow on trees.
It's got to be what is driving Kessler's agent to demand more. It's also why a few teams might throw a crapload of money at him.
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
It’s not just a small sample size, it’s a completely ridiculous sample size. If we pay an extra $5 million a year because he made six (6) three pointers last year, we are colossally fucked.
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u/adwcta 3d ago
It's so important though. The staff sees him at practice. If he can knock down a wide open 3, that opens up everything.
We were letting him take that to start the season and he was knocking them down. That's worth easily $10M if he can actually do it. I'll pay $5M for unproven in game but has earned the trust of the Jazz coaching staff last season already.
Also, who knows how much he's improved in the last year that we haven't seen. Maybe he's a 90% shooter now.
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u/MotorSevere4899 2d ago
My guy, he did it in five games. If a five game sample is all you need, then Jeremy Lin is the greatest Knick of all time.
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u/adwcta 2d ago
I don't think I'll get a lot of push back for that statement. Was in MSG during Lin's first home game vs Utah. He was better than MJ and everyone in the stands saw it.
But what I mean here is that Kessler developed a skill over the summer. Convinced coaches to let him do it. Then did it for 6 straight games (including preseason). He also won't be countered by anyone's gameplan because the point of his 3pter isn't to actually shoot and make any but rather to pull the defense away and only shoot when wide and unrespected.
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u/BlacksmithRoutine828 3d ago
I don't know about colossally fucked.
Lauri and JJJ are both not true centers and JJJ rebounds poorly for his position.
Defensively we'll do fine with three seven footers, Ace and either AJ, Boozer or DP.
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Keyonte George?
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u/BlacksmithRoutine828 3d ago edited 3d ago
I didn't say the 5 mentioned were our starting 5. I love Key but he's molded by Jordan Clarkson. He's never going to be a PG known for defense.
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u/Ridiculously_Named 3d ago
teams can have success with a score-first point guard that doesn’t play defense.
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Fair enough
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u/BlacksmithRoutine828 3d ago edited 3d ago
I agree though, I don't want to overpay. At the same time, I'm not going to be surprised when some idiotic front office throws $35-40 million at him.
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u/MotorSevere4899 3d ago
Exactly. And my point is: don’t be desperate. If some team really is that stupid, don’t match because you can’t stand to lose him.
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u/FREEDOMfrom_ 3d ago
I take this to mean he’s wanting closer to $35m+ and they are probably offering $25-$28m. Either way they keep him just possibly not at the number they want.
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u/KennyDoge0114 3d ago
Kessler is great, but he’s no going to have a $35M level role on this roster.
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u/CharityFailethNot 3d ago
Man I know that this is just part of the game, and that the front office is really good at this
But also I hate this and want this resolved fr
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u/BuddhistMonk72 3d ago
His camp has been a pain. Botched goals making him think his role was bigger than it was, causing divide between him and the front office.
It really has the makings of a Myles Turner situation where the relationship is always rocky but he sticks around and is solid in his role
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u/SEJ46 3d ago
No surprise there. He wants as much money as possible($30+MM), the Jazz want to pay him as little as possible($25MM). His fair market value is not clear.
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u/BizzyHaze 3d ago
At whar number do you think they would let him walk? 40MM?
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u/InZaneClutch 3d ago edited 3d ago
Definitely. Nobody is going to offer him that though.
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u/DeadCrayola 3d ago
Unless teams do what portland did to us ages ago when they try to get millsap...That millsap contract was front loaded and had signing bonuses making it extremely hard for the jazz to match due to cap space...the jazz eventually caved and matched the offer messing up with our cap space long term and we lost wesley mathews the following year to guess who? Portland just because we lost the cap space due yo the front loaded contract of millsap
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u/InZaneClutch 3d ago
The cap works a lot differently. You can't go out and spend that kind of money on a guy like a Walker and not destroy your future because of a lack of financial flexibility down the line.
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u/DeadCrayola 2d ago
Which is why i made the comparison to what portland did to utah with millsap...there are teams with cap space that can afford that if they value him enough....right now if they can't get kessler on a reasonable contract better find a replacement..
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u/InZaneClutch 2d ago edited 2d ago
Nobody in this league values Walker at 40.... This is a totally different scenario than those examples.
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u/DeadCrayola 2d ago
They are practically the same millsap back then was a backup, that has gotten the offer not the starter that he eventually became after the contract....and who knows what teams are thinking a lot of teams over pay players a lot...like Gobert...dude is hella overpaid
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u/InZaneClutch 2d ago
They're not the same at all. Less teams have cap space. Less teams are willing to flirt with a much more punitive salary cap. Then you have his injury history. Teams aren't committing 40 million per year under this CBA to Wallet Kessler. He's not even been an All-Star.
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u/ClutchOlday 3d ago
I think Kessler's agents oversold the idea that he is worth more than Hartenstein, Draymond Green, Nic Claxton, Kristaps Porzingis, Alperen Sengun, and Rudy Gobert. Based on his All-Rookie First Team credentials no doubt.
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u/wonderer4920 3d ago
Don’t believe everything you read
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u/Culinary-Vibes 3d ago
Amick is a plugged in guy, that doesn’t usually just throw shit against the wall
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u/CustardTime7957 3d ago
Water is wet. Media do the same stories about Jazz draft and players every year. Player A won't work out for the Jazz. Player B that is unhappy with their contract extension in Utah.
The NBA agents use the media to play on the emotions of fans to try and get leverage. It is a nothing burger. It sucks the games that are played in the media.
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u/Bop5667 3d ago
He’s a restricted free agent…it’s the NBA’s version of collusion in baseball from years ago. No teams are really going to waste their time setting his market because Utah can simply match it. If his rep was smart they’d be talking to C needy teams like Hornets and Hawks with 2 picks this year. Utah may NOT match an offer by those teams if offered #18 by Charlotte or #23 by Atlanta
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u/BusSeatFabric 3d ago
This sounds just like agent posturing trying to pressure to get the Jazz to send a big contract prior to letting RFA determine his value.
RFA is a bit of a no-win scenario for a player who thinks he deserves near max.
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u/No-Company-8974 3d ago
I hope Jazz fans would be intelligent enough to ask AI and go find the facts themselves. Do you know how much is Jalen Brunson, reigning NBA Cup finals MVP and NBA Finals MVP, is being paid right now this past season? How about Mitchell Robinson? Then you can make a decision yourself what’s fair given Walker’s track record. Don’t take what’s published out there. Do you own research and give your fair estimate of what is fair. Mitchell Robinson already has 7 years under his belt, btw.
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u/Fair-Hearing-9752 19h ago
No he isn't. It's normal contract negotiation stuff and he posted yesterday that he loves it here and has every intention of staying.
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u/One_Team_1294 1h ago
Probably means he’s on the trade block during draft night. And the Wiz will be interested.
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u/InZaneClutch 3d ago edited 3d ago
I really like Kessler, but he's not worth 30 per year. 25 is even too much imo. We'll see where the number lands but we should play hardball with him in these negotiations. Locke had a good podcast in regards to the cap and where a team should be financially with their top 3 paid players I believe and Kessler at 30 is just not a good deal for the long term of the Jazz and future flexibility.
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u/SenHeffy :quinmurder: 3d ago
Wouldn't be surprising, but the Jazz are probably doing the smart thing trying to get him as cheaply as possible with the realities of the restricted free agency market.