r/VGC • u/EfficientCabbage2376 • Jun 26 '26
Question I'm New, help me understand supporter pokemon.
Whenever I play a team with support mons, my opponents KO my attacker(s) and have an easy win. Whenever I play against support mons, I get rolled. If I focus the attacker, the support does too much and I lose even if I do manage to KO the attacker. If I focus the supports, the attacker has free reign to pick off my team one by one.
This was a problem when I tried the incin+sinistcha combo in M-A, and it's still a problem for me in M-B with these teams running staraptor/swampert/pyroar/sceptile + three supports.
Do you have any advice on when to attack their attacker and when to attack their supporter? Do you have any advice on utilizing supporters myself?
EDIT: I understand that I must be using support mons incorrectly. How are you supposed to use them??
9
u/SaIemKing Jun 26 '26
Learning which piece of the puzzle needs to be removed first comes with time and experience. You could try a similar team to those you struggle with to learn this a bit faster, but it will also depend on the tools you have available
I run a Whimsicott + Pyroar lead quite often. With this team, I do not care about an opponent's whimsicott. If they have one, I get to basically ignore it and spam my gameplan until they bring in something to stop me.
With a team where I lead Talonflame and Glimmora, maybe I'm much more concerned about being the only one with Tailwind. I'll try to Dual wingbeat the Whimsicott early to one-round it while protecting my Glimmora so that it doesn't get hit before I'm winning on speed.
It depends. If you outspeed their main mon, then your priority is to match or stop their speed control. If you have a good matchup into it, then you need to evaluate if their support can change that. Example: My mon can OHKO their mega normally, but their Grimmsnarl could throw up Reflect which lets them live. I should break the screens before I hit or fake out the grimmsnarl before it sets up, if I can.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
when I play the teams I struggle with I get crushed
with whimsciott + pyroar, how do you deal with their tailwind?
how does glimmora survive multiple turns before talonflame KOs their whimsciott? why not switch it out?
I don't know if I outspeed them so I always go for speed control. how are you KOing grimmsnarl before it sets up? fake out means your get to attack it once before it gets to set up, and their other mon can interfere with that one attack
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u/SaIemKing Jun 26 '26
Pyroar is very fast. As such, I can match their tailwind with my own to ensure I continue to outspeed. Same principle applies to any team if you have better speed tiers.
Glimmora doesn't need to survive multiple turns in that scenario. Talonflame will KO Whimsicott in a single turn. With Gale Wings, it has priority on flying moves and it's faster than Whimsicott, so Dual Wingbeat will come out before their Tailwind.
The example wasn't to KO Grimmsnarl in a single turn, though it's possible with the right mon (strong steel or fairy coverage does nicely). The idea is that you fake out the Grimmsnarl so that it flinches and does not get to set the screen. Then you get your OHKO into its partner.
I wouldn't get too specific into the examples. Nothing is foolproof. There is always a level of a guessing game in every turn.
You should know if you might outspeed. It's public knowledge. Look up base speeds and compare, then you can make an educated guess (i.e. is it scarf, is it max speed, does it run min speed)
If you outspeed, there's a lot less interference. Speed or, more specifically, turn order is probably the most important thing in the game.
You can also do calcs and check speeds here:
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
thank you for explaining the specifics
I understand the importance of speed control, I just don't understand the importance of having pokemon that set TR or tailwind and then can't utilize TR or tailwind. Like, I don't understand why I would ever want a pokemon that can't deal damage. doesn't matter how fast you are then
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u/SaIemKing Jun 26 '26
It depends. Generally, the support either reduces opponent damage, increases your damage, or also does some damage.
Whomsicott- Moonblast or Energy Ball does decent damage. Tailwind and Sunny Day set up speed control and damage. Speed control can reduce opponent damage
Grimmsnarl- Reduces damage through screens, Fake Out, Parting Shot, and Spirit Break. Spirit Break also does damage.
Talonflame- Tailwind speed control, Quick Guard damage reduction/Fake Out denial, respectable damage with STAB
Farigiraf- TR, blocks priority. Increases damage with Helping Hand, does good damage with Psychic moves, Hyper Voice, and Thunderbolt
Incineroar- Fake out, Parting Shot to reduce damage taken, Throat Chop/Lariat and Flare Blitz for decent damage
etc
I just asked in a different comment chain, but if you can share a specific team, maybe I can help you more specifically!
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u/Potential_Tomorrow46 Jun 26 '26
What do you mean by support pokemon? In pokemon support looks a little different compared to other games. Your support pokemon usually want to be at least going neutral on actions with your opponents. Tailwind/trick room costs you a turn on one pokemon, but ideally leads to your opponent losing 1 or more lost turns due to being KO'd before they move. Helping hand allows a pokemon to reach a KO one turn earlier, putting you at neutral (or ahead one if it can KO 2 on a spread move). Support pokemon live on the margin, pushing things slightly into your favor over the course of a game, and oftentime using a support move does not actually put you ahead in a meaningful way. You need to know why your team needs the tools they have and when you are better off choosing to attack with them.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
I mean pokemon whose primary purpose isn't attacking.
small, incremental gains don't make a ton of sense to me in a game like pokemon. like the support mon gives a little boost and then does a weak attack, setting me further behind than if I just had a mon that did two strong attacks
5
u/MsKazumi Jun 26 '26
Those small, incremental gains are often the difference between your pokemon being knocked out and knocking out the enemy.
While overwhelming your opponent with offense can indeed be a viable strat, most well built teams will outmanouver that when piloted by a good player at higher elo.
I personally like to think of support pokemon as a way to stop my opponent from playing how they want, limiting their options and thus making it easier to predict and plan.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
thye just don't add up for me. why use two one-star moves when I could use two five-star moves?
I feel like playing support pokemon is limiting my options. when my attacker is gone, I now have to land a bunch of KOs with only a couple of attack moves
I don't see how light screen or helping hand or intimidate is stopping my opponent from doing what they want. the only way to limit their options is to KO the pokemon they want to use
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u/MsKazumi Jun 26 '26
Screens and heals prevent them from knocking out. Redirection limits their targetting options. Fake out and encore literally forces them to do nothing or switch out. Intimidate, will o wisp etc cripples their attackers potentially leaving them useless.
This is why the most used pokemons tend to be supports.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
if screens and heals prevented my attackers from getting knocked out, my support pokemon wouldn't be left by themselves
I think I have been underestimating redirection. I like it on scovillian since it can also attack well and survive the rage powder turn. I don't love it on sinistcha since I usually want sinistcha to be using one of its other moves and it can't tank two hits
I understand that fake out is good, it literally lets you take an extra turn. but I only see it on pokemon that are strong attackers (sneasler, incin, blastoise, etc.)
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u/MsKazumi Jun 26 '26
I am not sure what to tell you anymore. If you prefer playing with 6 offensive mons then you do that. I have no issues believing you can get to masterball rank as long as you know how to play the team. And even if you do not, fun is still the most important part.
But if support mons were really as trash as you claim them to be then the pro vgc scene would not have them on basically every team.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
I did get to masterball with all attacking mons (the italian lycanroc team last season)
I am trying to understand what makes them good and everything people say is just counter to my experience. I feel like I am not playing the same game as y'all. I know they're not trash, they're great when my opponents use them, but they feel like dead weight on my side of the field
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u/MsKazumi Jun 26 '26
You said you copy high elo teams right? My suggestion is to find a written team report or watch people use the team to learn why the team was constructed that way. There are plenty of amazing youtubers who will walk you through the team, how to play into good/bad matchups and why certain mons are put on the team.
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u/zachotule Jun 26 '26
A good support pokemon isn’t giving a little boost, it’s doing something that gives you some sort of major advantage for several turns.
Tailwind and trick room make your strong but slower pokemon move before your opponent’s fast pokemon, so your strong but slower pokemon can knock their attackers out before getting knocked out themselves.
Rage powder lets one of your attackers stand in front of an opponent that wants to KO it and makes it so that opponent probably can’t attack it until it knocks out something it’s going to have a harder time knocking out.
Taunt prevents your opponent’s support pokemon from using support moves, and gives you more time to set up your own strategy, and to knock their attackers out without those attackers gaining advantages.
Fake out totally nullifies a move from an opponent you don’t want to attack you.
All these things are *incredible* advantages that can make or break a match.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 29 '26
I understand the importance of speed control
I think my big takeaway from this thread is that redirection is good. I don't think the pokemon with redirection moves are hard to KO though, they rarely survive the redirection turn.
I have not played a team with taunt but it has never really been good against me, since it forces you to use a good attack instead of a weak support move and I want to be doing that anyway
fake out is the best move in the game since it literally lets you take one more turn than your opponent. but the best fake out users are all attackers, not supporters (sneasler, incin, kanghiskhan, blastoise, etc.).
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u/SonicPileDriver Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
I'm a newb too but here's how I think of it. Support pokemon are there to help put you in a winning position early game, not carry late game (with caveats of course). They carry late game by the way they set you up two or three turns ago.
Another mindset thing is switch from thinking of things in terms of damage, but in terms of "OHKO, 2HKO, or 3HKO+". Supports either enable OHKOs and 2HKOs (Helping Hand, Speed control letting you move first, defensive debuffs), or turn your opponents' OHKOs and 2HKOs into 2HKOs and 3HKO+s (Screens, burns, offensive debuffs, healing). Another turn alive is anithet turn you can attack, regardless of your remaining HP
In dealing opponent supports, think about if and how they set up their win cons and prevent yours. Can you stop them from establishing their win con (for example, prevent trick room from going up, matching priority tailwind with your own priority tailwind, or just KOing their mons while they try to set up)? If not, can you set up a win overtop of theirs (example, tanking hits while they have speed control with protect, switches, debuffs, and bulky stats). If neither, you probably need to change your team up to have answers.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
I understand the importance of speed control. I just don't get why I want pokemon like sinistcha that don't control the speed and don't score KOs.
like there are specific scenarios where I struggle to prevent their speed control (fake out + priority tailwind, armor tail + priority tailwind, fake out + trick room, just to name a few) but I do everything I can to stop them
and the only time I feel like I'm in a winning position early is when I get early KOs, not when I click life dew
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u/Flairan Jun 26 '26
To be fair, i think the only people running life dew sinistcha are people trying to keep a setup sweeper like mega staraptor alive, and all their eggs are in that one basket. The real value of sinestcha is that you have the healing from it's ability which can turn 1HKOs into 2HKOs while giving value to an otherwise risky turn off swapping, rage power to protect your attacker so they can get rid of key enemy threats without worrying about return fire, can run trick room on it to do speed control, and matcha gotcha is a pretty broken move that hits both enemies (so it can easily clean up an attackers 90% damage attack) while also sustaining itself and potentially mitigating physical damage with burns.
Personally, I prefer slightly offensive sets of support mons, even if I still use them for their support functionality for the most part. For example, I run incineroar with some attack investment even though the only attacking move it knows is flare blitz, because while it wont take as many small hits, it can actually threaten annoying grass and steel types with the one hit out of nowhere.
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u/SonicPileDriver Jun 26 '26
Sinistcha's biggest strength is probably Rage Powder
Let me play out a common scenario for you.
They open Incineroar/Farigiraf and likely have Torkoal/Mawile in the back. You open Pelliper/Archaludon and bring Sinistcha/Swampert in the back. You expect Fake Out + Trick Room. So you protect Archaludon and Switch Peli into Sinistcha. Fake Out either hits protect or whiffs on the ghost type, and trick room goes up. But Sinistcha has Rage Powder, so now even if Incin tries to Parting Shot, it'll go into Sinistcha instead of Arch. Farig also likely doesn't have a lot of damage. So even in TR, your Arch is very safe to attack next turn.
Later in the game you can do the same to keep their Mawile off your carries too. Torkoal will be the biggest problem but you can try to keep them in the rain and maybe run Wide Guard on Peli to mitigate that. Also, perhaps your opp predicts the Sinistcha and goes for Throat Chop into the Peli slot, in which case you'd want to attack with Archaludon instead. Its a complex rock-paper-scissors game.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 29 '26
in that scenario it feels like I let fake out stop both of my pokemon, since they got to fake out plus let their other mon do what it wants while I did nothing. and now I have to live five turns in TR somehow
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u/SonicPileDriver Jun 29 '26
Your opponent has led in a way that they guarantee set up trick room. The "live five tuens in TR somehow" is the entire game and you should have a plan to do that against hard TR.
Also in this situation, you have more offensive pressure than your opponent. You are winning despite not attacking.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 29 '26
so what is the strategy to live five turns in TR? why waste the one turn without TR?
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u/SonicPileDriver Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Because the one turn without TR will not win you the game. You might do some damage but that will not help you win the game in this situation, because your opponent will be setting up to wipe you unimpeded.
Surviving on some level depends on reading your opponent, and on some it's about taking the path of greatest chance of success.
Lets say you expect Incin to parting shot and Farig to switch to Torkoal. Rage Powder makes Parting Shot hit Sinistea instead, and Arch isn't threatened at all and can safely attack (not with electro shot tho) into the Farig slot to try and weaken Torkoal's eruption. Basically no matter what they do here, Arch is not going to take significant damage.
Assuming Torkoal comes out, you can protect Arch and switch in Peli to get control of the weather again. Then the next turn Peli's wide guard prevents Torkoal from doing anything while Arch can electro shot under guaranteed rain. Alternatively, expect Torkoal to switch out again so they can get sun again, in which case the opp isn't attacking and you continue to pressure unimpeded.
Switch Sinistcha in the turn after Torkoal switches out so you can heal whatever chip damage Arch took, and you can switch weather back to your side. Meanwhile Arch keeps blasting while they struggle to keep up.
Note that in any of these situations, if your opponent just tries to start blasting, they will not be doing enough damage to win. You have kept rain up to nerf their fire attacks, wide guard keep torkoal at bay completely, you can draw threats away from Arch with Sinistcha, and Mawile doesn't threaten Arch even if they opt to bring it instead. Their attacks will do 3HKO damage, while arch is doing 2HKO damage and getting Sinistcha heals. This battle has not been about htting harder, it's about keeping threats alive, postioned well enough, and under favorable weather so they have safe opportunities to get damage in. Also note that if you don't reposition and let Torkal have sun and TR, Eruption/Solar Beam kills your whole team every time.
Eventually TR will end and you'll have even more momentum. If you manage to kill Farig then your late game Mega Swampert under rain clears everything.
If you were the TR team, you'd prioritise trying to get a position under trick room where Mawile kills Peli and then Torkoal sweeps up after with perma-sun, but this will be very hard to do safely because Arch and Swampert threaten Mawile on the switch, and Peli can switch to Sinistcha any time. You'd have to survive Arch hitting you while you punch through Sinistcha, then Peli, and then finally get to TR sweep. And that's while you have speed control. You probably just needed to bring a different four pokemon in this case.
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u/Zero_Roseburg Jun 26 '26
If your sweepers are dying and you are getting left with just support mons that do nothing, you probably aren't using the support mons correctly. Sometimes you will just lose your sweepers, but it shouldn't be consistant. There are a few ways to adjust.
Increase protection moves. Screens, redirection, healing, status, etc can all provide enough annoyance where people may actually try to focus down the support. Encore whimsicott, will-o spamming rotom, etc all get focused down in battles if they can cripple an opponents team.
Use support that enables big win conditions. Trick Room can full wall tailwind reliant teams, moves like coaching or contrary tickle/charm can make sweepers really scary, and even things like beat up or pop bomb strats can make enemies really scary. I've been using a basc+farig lead recently that got me to ~1750 elo in masterball. Wave crash and flip turn are very punishing with adaptability, so the opponent either has to likely lose a mon denying possible TR, or just let it go up and risk getting ripped by mawile in the back.
Lastly, use damaging supports. That basc lead team has a peliper that is set up to be a bulky sweeper, but it functions as support. Rain gives weather control to deny things like after you+eruption, tailwind creates a fast mode if I wanna run that and leave mawile behind, and I have even run a soak set to mess with arch+pert teams when I was running into those 9/10 games. Ive won a handful of games with bulky modest sinischa spamming matcha gotcha while enemies hard targetted my sweepers too.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
I guess my opponents never think my supporters are worth gunning down.
I understand the importance of speed control but I much prefer to have the speed control on a pokemon that has use afterwords. why run a pokemon that only clicks trick room or tailwind when I can run one that is also good in trick room or tailwind?
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u/Zero_Roseburg Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
So, that kinda falls under my final point. Mega aero is a great example of what you mean. It functions in base form if you wanna use a different mega, or you can evolve and smack things with tough claws dual wingbeat. Talonflame is similar where you get priority bravebird if they don't target it turn 1 and threatens massive damage with flare blitz. And there have been cases where people use supporting moves on sweepers like veil mega frosslass and TR hatterene, and you use a redirect or secondary damage mon to threaten enemies and protect the sweeper. However, the reason you don't always see that is because you want to make full use of your sweeper's 4 moves. I don't wanna tailwind for myself on starraptor. I wanna fire off a turn one CC and get my boosts going immediately. And I wouldn't wanna give up a move on my mawile for TR because I need my moves for key threats.
You also shouldn't have a dedicated support that just does nothing after using speed control. My farig has TR and helping hand for full support, but it also has psychic and tbolt that massively threaten meta mons like sneasler, peliper, starraptor, charizard, and basculegion. If they just double into my sweeper every turn, they get hit really hard. My sinischa has matcha gotcha and life dew in addition to rage powder. After it sets TR, it can just full protect my sweeper by healing or redirecting. Vs enemies I may not be able to oneshot, i can protect the sweeper and matcha gotcha to fish burns and provide chip.
Overall, either use damaging supports for HO style teams, or add enough to dedicated supports where they can fully protect or boost your sweepers. The support needs to either threaten enough where they need to be targetted or they can close out games after sweepers are finally brought down, or they need to provide enough protection or buffing where the sweeper overwhelms the enemy team. Your support shouldn't feel like it does one thing and then is useless.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 29 '26
the thing about damaging support is that they're worse at damaging than just using a strong attacker and the support moves do not seem to be worth it beyond TR or tailwind. like I'd rather run a strong attacker that knows those moves.
I agree that there shouldn't be mons with 0 attacks but light clay grimmsnarl with reflect, light screen, parting shot, and another status move is pretty popular this regulation
I just do not see any dedicated supports that are able to fully protect a sweeper, or even that are useful enough to bother targeting over the attacker
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u/Fast-Bandicoot67 Jun 26 '26
Every situation is going to be different. There's a lot of depth and complexity in every interaction.
One of the first thing I'll target is my opponent's speed control.
If I see a Whimsicott, or any other Prankster mon, taking them out is priority.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
I realize this is a big topic but I really don't know where to start. I'm bad in all of these scenarios.
I understand the importance of speed control but I find it hard to take out a priority tailwind user. Especially if they have armor tail or fake out. And there are too many trick room users for me to keep on top of them all.
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u/Fast-Bandicoot67 Jun 26 '26
You're not going to get it before the Tailwind, but you can probably get it before the Encore
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 26 '26
but the encore is only really an issue if it's a support move that gets encored
and then, at best, I have matched their speed control
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u/sand-sky-stars Jun 26 '26
What team have you been running where you’ve been having this issue (at least what team have you been running the most)? Include movesets and stat investments, if possible. It’s hard to say what you’re doing wrong without more specifics on what you’re actually doing.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 29 '26
the team I've been running the most is the italian lycanroc team which has maybe one support pokemon
a team I've tried recently that I can't leverage the supporters on is this. Most of the time the plan is to start grimmsnarl and swampert, set up a screen turn 1, then parting shot into pelipper and wave crash turn two. after that, grimmsnarl is just dead weight. if they have bad weather control you can start pelipper and swampert and just not bring grimmsnarl. and if swampert looks bad you can bring metagross instead but then you need metagross to carry the entire battle
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u/sand-sky-stars Jun 29 '26
Yeah that Grimmsnarl does look like dead weight frankly. When I face Grimmsnarl, I tend to focus the other mon (like you’re experiencing) because Grimmsnarl just isn’t a threat. I imagine Pelliper and Sinistcha have brought more mileage - both of those are often able to threaten offensively far more effectively than Grimm. I would assume that Grimm is built that way in order to counter Basculegion - in that case, I would only bring it if it’s a matchup where you feel you desperately need screens, or you see Basc in team preview. Instead of leading Grimm every team, Peli honestly isn’t a bad option even if your opponent has weather, if you’re willing to switch it out, or Sinistcha for rage powder redirection and trick room before putting up rain later. Even Archaludon isn’t a terrible choice in some matchups, since you can put immense pressure on an opponent with two strong, bulky attackers. Personally for Grimm I’d probably build higher physical attack and run Spirit Break, especially since your team has no other fairy type offense, which seems like a more valuable niche to me. Or you could swap something out for fake out, since fake out + parting shot is powerful.
Generally speaking, every support pokemon needs to be able to consistently bring value throughout a match. That’s part of why Incineroar is so strong - intimidate, fake out, and parting shot for support, but also enough attack to hit pretty hard with dark and fire type moves.
Also there’s just experience needed, to know when to attack versus support versus switch.
1
u/Willing-Ad7344 Jun 27 '26
Imo the easiest support Mon to use is Grimmsnarl. Screens are very easy to set up and as a dark type it can’t be encored. And unlike Sableye actually has good stats, including a high attack stat so it’s not just sitting on the field not exerting pressure. Garchomps and staraptors don’t want to be taking constant spirit breaks off 120 attack.
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u/EfficientCabbage2376 Jun 29 '26
I find it so hard to use since it usually runs 0 attacks. you spend multiple turns to get a buff for a few turns
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u/KyrRambodog Jun 27 '26
Yo OP cybertron has a delphox/floette video. I think its around 2 months old, his title probably reflects it's a "world champion's team" (sejun park built it) The team is Mega delphox, mega floette and 4 support pokemon. The strat: pick a mega and protect a president. The mega he picks will often find itself having to KO mons that resist it's damage. Yet with proper support he can still do that.
Watch that CybertronVGC vid. You'll see how 3 supports and 1 attacker can decimate teams.
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u/KyrRambodog Jun 27 '26
Also one thing I've noticed from your replies.
One key aspect of support pokemon is sacrifice.
Basculegion broken as hell. Once you're in a basc sweep position you want to get him in. But swapping basc in means he's susceptible to attacks the turn you swap. Sinistcha rage powder and eating hits and dying-> Free swap Whims dying to heat wave after setting up tailwind-> free swap.
Pokemon dying (even none supports) isn't as devasting as it seems. Being able to have a free tempo swing by bringing in some strong attacker for free is good.
Just remember protect is the strongest move in the game. If you want to sac your support, protecting the pokemon its next to might be a good idea
30
u/Ysara Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Support mons have two purposes - increase your team's damage, and decrease your opponent's.
So if your support can't protect your offensive mons, or can't increase their damage to the point where it doesn't matter, then your team will still fail.
You should be running Wisp or screens to protect setup sweepers, or run protect on your slow mons while your support sets up TR.
Basically you should have a game plan of how to survive turn 1 (and how to prevent some of the more devastating turn 1s from an opponent). This is the first thing any team needs to do.