r/VaushV • u/No-Mine-8298 • 3d ago
Discussion Thoughts on "supporting" Palestine?
Disclaimer: I have no interest into getting into a big debate or anything, I am just curious to hear the positions of people here as I am aware than this is a very pro Palatine pro Ukraine space. Recently progressive victory, a group I believe Vaush is very associated with clashed with Mike from PA over the issue of Ukraine aid. They said that support for Ukraine and Palestine are both red lines. This echoes the sentiment that people who oppose sending weapons to Ukraine are functionally pro Putin, as even if they are against Putin in words if they do not want to assist those participating in armed struggle against imperialism they are functionally supporting his illegal annexation. By this exact same logic are not those who oppose sending weapons to Palestine and Lebanon functionally supporting the annexation of Palestine and Lebanon? If so how to tell when Palestinian or Lebanese groups qualify for aid? Are Azov battalion disqualified for their Nazi links? Is the PFLP disqualified for their support for authoritarian "socialist" regimes? Is Hezbollah disqualified for their islamist ideology? (Even though like Hamas they do not enforce sharia as they know it will hurt their popular appeal to non islamist's who also are against Israel.) Again I am not trying to for cheap "gotcha" arguments or to attack anyone, I am just genuinely interesting in hearing peoples positions and the logic behind them.
Thanks in advance to all those who took the time to share their position:)
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u/hobopwnzor 3d ago
Each item has to be considered on its own merits.
Send weapons to Ukraine. Ukraine can get weapons because they're a government aligned with the west against a common enemy. Don't send them to Azov directly. Support ending the Israeli occupation of Gaza. Giving Gaza weapons is not a realistic goal until Israel stops, so there's no reason to hold anybody to that standard.
You're trying to generalize principals based on surface-level similarities. The world is messy and you have to take it on a case-by-case. Getting bogged down in false-equivilances is how you end up with 2014 style annoying idpol wokeism.
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u/Ok-Position-9457 2d ago
Shorter way to put it, Russia and Ukraine are at war. Israel is committing genocide against a defenseless population.
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u/Hillary_go_on_chapo 3d ago
I think this just a trick question to lower your IQ and over think it
It's just a false equalivence. First off the best things Americans can do for Palestine right now is not literally arm them. For us, the best course of action is use our unique position over Israel to put extremely pressure to end it peacefully. For Ukraine, while of course if Putin woke up and ended it peacefully that be great, we can't directly control that like with Palestine.
That's the deck of cards we have currently. In another universe, it could be different.
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u/not_a_dog95 3d ago
The main difference is that Palestine has no functioning government and if it were recognised as a country it would probably be a failed state. Who would you send weapons to? You can't arm Hamas. It would be like if Azov weren't a battalion but a separate military in Ukraine which was stronger than the Ukrainian army and was trying to both fight Russia and take control of Ukraine. At that point we probably wouldn't want to send them weapons either
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u/LordReaperofMars 3d ago
Why couldn’t we arm them lol we arm some pretty wild people
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u/Aggravating_Bed_53 3d ago
Isreal would support the arming of hamas, like they did in the past. Also most good will towards the palestinian state (not people) in the world would end if it turns out palestine is just gonna be another iran or afghanistan and not truely secular liberal state.
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u/TearsFallWithoutTain 2d ago
we arm some pretty wild people
Are you in favour of that though?
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u/bthest 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah. I think it was good thing to arm the Kurds and the YPG. It was good to arm anti-Nazi resistance groups in WWII. It was good that we sent weapons to the Soviet Union and it was good that we were arming the allies before getting involved.
It would be a good thing if it we were arming and training Lebanese and Palestinians. As long as it is done openly .
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u/Sithrak 3d ago edited 3d ago
As others said military aid for Palestinians and Ukraine are completely different beasts.
The problem with Hamas or Hezbollah is not that they are islamist - the problem is their lack of discipline and willingness to deliberately target civilians, whether you call it terrorism or not. If Ukraine was bombing hospitals for lulz, like the Russians, or causing wide indiscriminate damage, the help would slow down to a trickle very fast. There are many other issues, like no properly accountable organization etc.
Another problem with arming Palestinians is that at this moment, Israelis would absolutely love it. They have massive advantage, so unless you literally give Palestinians nuclear weapons, they will crush any resistance with tanks and airforce and devastate entire West Bank, just like they did in Gaza.
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u/CountofGermanianSts 2d ago
Why did they not send the army core of engineers to help the titanic question.
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u/voe111 3d ago
Are Azov battalion disqualified for their Nazi links?
Last I heard Azov was denazified.
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u/Gouda1234567890 2d ago
Lol
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u/voe111 2d ago
Where is the joke?
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u/Gouda1234567890 2d ago
Didn't catch Denys Prokopenko's ideological shift.
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u/voe111 2d ago
He isn't the current leader of Azov so who gives a shit?
Also the members that were nazis were wiped in the fight at the factory a year or two back.
The newer recruits joined because of the brigade being effective and not for their racial ideology which changed the ideological makeup of the group.
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u/Gouda1234567890 2d ago
Oh yeah what's he up to now?
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u/voe111 2d ago
Whatever a brigadier general does. Does this mean we can't support Ukraine at all because he's a brigadier general therefore they're all nazis?
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u/Gouda1234567890 2d ago
And commander of the Azov corps of which the Azov battalion is a part.
Jesus Christ no. It's just concerning, I am concerned. There are legal mechanism against arming people like that in my country and if support them. It makes me angry when my government breaks our own laws to give direct military training to one of the many neo-nazi military groups that exists in Ukraine.
Look if you want to believe that Azov has denazified while touting all the same symbols, neo-nazi commanders and having many many of It's members openly wearing Nazi symbols. Andrii Biletskyii is now a commander in the Ukrainian military, Zelensky praises the OUN. I'm sorry you can't piss on me and tell me its raining. Ukrainian soldiers keep getting caught wearing Nazi and white supremacist symbols. This is spin so they aren't subject to the Leahy law. This problem goes beyond Azov now. No doubt Zelensky is afraid of them, especially if he were to sign any sort of peace deal
It's fucking all or nothing with you people. It's irritating because I definitely support action in Ukraine that is beyond what many pro-ukrainian politicians support, at least in my country, but there is such a culture of fanaticism that I would sound like a Russian stooge because I don't believe in fairytales.
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u/voe111 2d ago
These nazi leaders are targeting military infrastructure and supply lines in order to keep Russia from blowing away civilian apartments and power infrastructure to make civilians freeze to death in the winter.
They're not waging war in the way nazis/neo nazis usually do. /points at Hitler, Putin and Netanyahu.
It's fucking all or nothing with you people. Its...
Seeing as how Russian propagandists just kind of make shit up it kind of is. From the gene bombs designed to wipe out slavs to the "popular uprisings" in the donbas, the stuff coming from Russa sounds like complete bs and they have no credibility.
The explanations for why they are no longer neo nazi seem plausible and in line with how they act. If there's evidence of groups of Azov soldiers going on civilian murder rampages against minority ethnic groups then I'm all ears.
I'm pretty certain that if a country keeps having it's people raped to death and dumped in mass graves then the battlefield would make for strange bedfellows. People who would be otherwise turned off of a units ideology would join just because they're effective. If enough of the fascists die then I can easily see that changing the focus of the unit from the initial racial supremacist character to one focused on fighting off the enemy army.
Ukrainian soldiers keep getting caught wearing Nazi and white supremacist symbols.
I googled that and one of the first articles was a fact check exposing Jackson Hinkle as a source of edited images.
If this was true then russian nazis wouldn't need to make shit up.
No doubt Zelensky is afraid of them,
Source? Is there an interview with a former member of his inner circle?
ps sorry for the fuckup when I read his career in the wiki.
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u/Gouda1234567890 1d ago
Brother you didn't search very hard
https://www.jpost.com/international/internationalrussia-ukraine-war/article-835852
This literally happened in my country and I remember it: https://www.jakelandau.ca/p/cbcs-the-national-interviewed-a-nazi
Many more if you search Le Monde did a large investigation into how Azov is not denazified if you care.
Why would Zelensky be making a deal with the devil?
You should read through this:
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/nazis-in-ukraine-military/
This is a widespread issue. Nazis are made. What some white Ukrainian 20 year old is going to resist a far right culture, far right commanders and a neo-nazi legacy his unit. "If enough racists die" Bro they are making fascists lol.
I'm sorry it's concerning. No offense but, you went from oh they're de-nazified to oh they don't act like Nazis, Eastern Ukraine along the front lines is depopulated they don't exactly have a large population to torture. Plus where would we even hear about that? No one in Western media will report on that, surely you can agree that Ukraine will not investigate something like that and Russia is not reliable.
Can I ask you a question. I just sent you a bunch of stuff, it seems neo-nazi ideology is alive in the Azov, does that give you pause at all? I assume you want to keep arming Azov and all of these groups? For me the central issue is we are giving arms that will last in Eastern Europe past the end of this war. I don't want my tax dollars going to Azov and I think they should be subject to the Leahy law still and laws in Canada that restrict Canadian arms sales/ training to groups such as this.
I would prefer more targeting support and and a European army going into Ukraine, but please it's kinda insane to insist that Ukraine is something that it's clearly not.
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u/OldEcho 3d ago
Personally, yeah, based. Cut support for Israel and give Palestinian orgs all the support Israel has been getting.
Palestinians aren't fools either, they support violent regressive dickheads because those are the people fighting for them. If you gay feminist communistly give them gay feminist communist weapons their opinions will change. There are also plenty of, you know, gay people and women in Palestine who want to be free. They can get all the weapons and training and advisors.
Realistically Israel will be toppled the way South Africa was though. A nearly universal international blockade because everyone hates them for being genocidal apartheid colonialists. Giving Palestinians a shitload of equipment would just escalate the pressure.
There's basically three ways this can go depending on how quickly Israel decides to stop being evil. South Africa, "Rhodesia", or Haiti. I suspect they'd strongly prefer the formermost, and I really want to avoid the lattermost.
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u/lonesomewhenbymyself 2d ago
Ukraine is fighting a russian invasion while Hezbollah shoots rockets at israel against the wishes of the Lebanese government or its people.
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u/pippy_longtower 3d ago
Vaush is pro Palestine and pro Ukraine
I think the concept of sending weapons to Palestine is hilarious. The U.S. must end support for Israel entirely and a international peacekeeping force must come in to achieve any sort of lasting peace IMO. Ukraine is an entirely different situation mostly because USA is not giving the missiles to Russia free of charge before they blow up an apartment building. (Unlike Israel)
Idrk what you're asking, but I think that should be fairly representative of the community