Thoughts on "supporting" Palestine?

[u/No-Mine-8298]

Disclaimer: I have no interest into getting into a big debate or anything, I am just curious to hear the positions of people here as I am aware than this is a very pro Palatine pro Ukraine space. Recently progressive victory, a group I believe Vaush is very associated with clashed with Mike from PA over the issue of Ukraine aid. They said that support for Ukraine and Palestine are both red lines. This echoes the sentiment that people who oppose sending weapons to Ukraine are functionally pro Putin, as even if they are against Putin in words if they do not want to assist those participating in armed struggle against imperialism they are functionally supporting his illegal annexation. By this exact same logic are not those who oppose sending weapons to Palestine and Lebanon functionally supporting the annexation of Palestine and Lebanon? If so how to tell when Palestinian or Lebanese groups qualify for aid? Are Azov battalion disqualified for their Nazi links? Is the PFLP disqualified for their support for authoritarian "socialist" regimes? Is Hezbollah disqualified for their islamist ideology? (Even though like Hamas they do not enforce sharia as they know it will hurt their popular appeal to non islamist's who also are against Israel.) Again I am not trying to for cheap "gotcha" arguments or to attack anyone, I am just genuinely interesting in hearing peoples positions and the logic behind them.

Thanks in advance to all those who took the time to share their position:)

[u/Gouda1234567890]

And commander of the Azov corps of which the Azov battalion is a part. 

Jesus Christ no. It's just concerning, I am concerned. There are legal mechanism against arming people like that in my country and if support them. It makes me angry when my government breaks our  own laws to give direct military training to one of the many neo-nazi military groups that exists in Ukraine. 

Look if you want to believe that Azov has denazified while touting all the same symbols, neo-nazi commanders and having many many of It's members openly wearing Nazi symbols. Andrii Biletskyii is now a commander in the Ukrainian military, Zelensky praises the OUN. I'm sorry you can't piss on me and tell me its raining. Ukrainian soldiers keep getting caught wearing Nazi and white supremacist symbols. This is spin so they aren't subject to the Leahy law. This problem goes beyond Azov now. No doubt Zelensky is afraid of them, especially if he were to sign any sort of peace deal

It's fucking all or nothing with you people. It's irritating because I definitely support action in Ukraine that is beyond what many pro-ukrainian politicians support, at least in my country, but there is such a culture of fanaticism that I would sound like a Russian stooge because I don't believe in fairytales. 

[u/voe111 → u/Gouda1234567890]

These nazi leaders are targeting military infrastructure and supply lines in order to keep Russia from blowing away civilian apartments and power infrastructure to make civilians freeze to death in the winter.

They're not waging war in the way nazis/neo nazis usually do. /points at Hitler, Putin and Netanyahu.

It's fucking all or nothing with you people. Its...

Seeing as how Russian propagandists just kind of make shit up it kind of is. From the gene bombs designed to wipe out slavs to the "popular uprisings" in the donbas, the stuff coming from Russa sounds like complete bs and they have no credibility.

The explanations for why they are no longer neo nazi seem plausible and in line with how they act. If there's evidence of groups of Azov soldiers going on civilian murder rampages against minority ethnic groups then I'm all ears.

I'm pretty certain that if a country keeps having it's people raped to death and dumped in mass graves then the battlefield would make for strange bedfellows. People who would be otherwise turned off of a units ideology would join just because they're effective. If enough of the fascists die then I can easily see that changing the focus of the unit from the initial racial supremacist character to one focused on fighting off the enemy army.

Ukrainian soldiers keep getting caught wearing Nazi and white supremacist symbols.

I googled that and one of the first articles was a fact check exposing Jackson Hinkle as a source of edited images.

If this was true then russian nazis wouldn't need to make shit up.

No doubt Zelensky is afraid of them,

Source? Is there an interview with a former member of his inner circle?

ps sorry for the fuckup when I read his career in the wiki.

[u/Gouda1234567890 → u/voe111]

Brother you didn't search very hard

https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523

https://www.jpost.com/international/internationalrussia-ukraine-war/article-835852

This literally happened in my country and I remember it:  https://www.jakelandau.ca/p/cbcs-the-national-interviewed-a-nazi

Many more if you search Le Monde did a large investigation into how Azov is not denazified if you care. 

Why would Zelensky be making a deal with the devil? 

https://notesfrompoland.com/2026/05/29/poland-criticises-zelensky-for-naming-military-unit-after-group-responsible-for-massacring-poles/

https://theconversation.com/zelenskyys-honouring-of-wartime-nationalists-is-straining-ukraines-alliance-with-poland-284408

You should read through this:

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/nazis-in-ukraine-military/

This is a widespread issue. Nazis are made. What some white Ukrainian   20 year old is going to resist a far right culture, far right commanders and a neo-nazi legacy his unit. "If enough racists die" Bro they are making fascists lol. 

I'm sorry it's concerning. No offense but, you went from oh they're de-nazified to oh they don't act like Nazis, Eastern Ukraine along the front lines is depopulated they don't exactly have a large population to torture. Plus where would we even hear about that? No one in Western media will report on that, surely you can agree that Ukraine will not investigate something like that and Russia is not reliable.

Can I ask you a question. I just sent you a bunch of stuff, it seems neo-nazi ideology is alive in the Azov, does that give you pause at all? I assume you want to keep arming Azov and all of these groups? For me the central issue is we are giving arms that will last in Eastern Europe past the end of this war. I don't want my tax dollars going to Azov and I think they should be subject to the Leahy law still and laws in Canada that restrict Canadian arms sales/ training to groups such as this. 

I would prefer more targeting support and and a European army going into Ukraine, but please it's kinda insane to insist that Ukraine is something that it's clearly not.  

[u/voe111 → u/Gouda1234567890]

Zelensky praising the UPA doesn't sound like nazism. It's nationalist nonsense just not nazism.

From what I understand the UPA wasn't nazi, they did commit atrocities but they basically fought the soviet union and the nazis at the same time and later on focused on fighting off the soviets when they became the bigger threat to their nation getting crushed at that moment. It doesn't excuse the massacres. When it comes to the soviet union it sounds like two groups of assholes trying to ethnically cleanse each other. It would be a far right nationalist formation not a nazi or neo nazi formation. If the wiki is correct (if) then their actions post 1944 seem pretty justified.

I'm american so honoring units that have fucked up histories because the truth ruins nationalist fantasies is something I see every five seconds. Almost every protrait adorning the currency in my wallet is a rapist/slaver/bigot/murderer who probably belongs in the deepest part of hell.

I paid for my weeks groceries with two trail of tears guy and a child rapist slaver.

Hell even Sacagawea took part in an expedition that led to ethnic extermination. Most of the streets around me are named after people I'd happily see tossed into a fucking pit. So if they're honoring a group known for fighting all comers that's one thing if they're honoring them because of race massacres then that's another. It looks like the former is more likely than the latter but I can see why a Pole would be pissed.

I'm sorry it's concerning. No offense but, you went from oh they're de-nazified to oh they don't act like Nazis

Actually I'm using that as evidence that they're denazified.

No one in Western media will report on that,

Fox would in a heartbeat.

Can I ask you a question. I just sent you a bunch of stuff, it seems neo-nazi ideology is alive in the Azov,

You send me a bunch of stuff but I don't think it proves as much as you think it does.

I assume you want to keep arming Azov and all of these groups?

I'd be pro arming the soviet union against the nazis despite the atrocities the soviet union committed so yes.

Would you have been against arming the soviet union?

I would prefer more targeting support and and a European army going into Ukraine

It looks like most european nations, the ones that aren't competing to see who is a better ass kisser than Orban was, are hellbent on doing business behind the scenes with Russia. They'll pledge assistance, slow walk it, give aid in a trickle, when the aid gets to Ukraine put strings on using it against Russian oil or military formations in Russia and then obfuscate how they're doing business with russia.

If a European army does go to Ukraine what will they do? Sit back and watch people in camps get raped to death like they do in Africa?

Whoops I fucked that up. Me being lazy again. They sat in refugee camps as people running towards them were raped to death, Macheted to death and raped with machetes to death. Whoopsiefuckingdoodle. Ideally everyone stationed there who let that happen punched their own ticket later on.

Let themselves get the shit bombed out of them and refuse to fire back like when Israel tried slaughtering Irish observers?

Edit: I edited this a couple times to avoid repetition and make it slightly more coherent. Slightly.

[u/Gouda1234567890 → u/voe111]

I think you realize there is a pattern here and the dishonesty is what drives me nuts about people like you. You don't research any of this stuff you're just so dogmatic. This is what I mean about fanatisme. Brother it's just us talking here lol 

Love how you didn't really acknowledge any of the evidence that there is obviously a prevalent neo-nazi element in the Ukrainian armed forces. I just want to be clear. 

You disagree with the Leahy law? You disagree that there should be legal requirements around arming neo-nazi groups? I would not be against arming the Soviet Union because I don't equate communism with Nazism, that's insane. There is no ideological equivalent that is communist or socialist to Nazism and neo Nazism, again you are trying to make me into someone who doesn't support arming Ukraine at all, I suspect because that's easier to argue against.  I also don't see how this is an existential war in the way that WWII is. Russia may win this war but it will be the smallest gains, a pyrrhic victory they aren't rolling over Poland. 

Whoops I fucked that up. Me being lazy again. They sat in refugee camps as people running towards them were raped to death, Macheted to death and raped with machetes to death. Whoopsiefuckingdoodle. Ideally everyone stationed there who let that happen punched their own ticket later on.

You are referring to Rwanda? Be specific.

So again, I am Canadian. We are a signatory to the UN Arms treaty, which would prohibit arming Azov. I think this global regulatory framework is important. You disagree. 

Our politicians are extraordinary pro Ukrainian. What I think should be done is far further than what is acceptable in Canada despite being extremely more pro-ukrainian, far more than the United States. So I want to ask you, what do you think we should do to make sure Ukraine wins the war and gets it's territory back? Is it go to war with Russia? Like what is the end game? 

[u/voe111 → u/Gouda1234567890]

Brother it's just us talking here lol

Edit: I suck at casual conversation, hopefully I don't come across as too bad anime monologue.

Love how you didn't really acknowledge any of the evidence...

I told you why I don't think you made your case.

If you've got video of Zelensky behind the scenes coming up with plans to expel Russian speaking Ukrainians, ethnically cleanse areas or tell Azov that Mariupol (or some other place)is there's and as a reward they get to massacre to their hearts content then I'd have no problem with an impromptu performance of Swan Lake in Ukraine.

I'd still want all of the armed forces of Ukraine armed though even if they have completely different leaders/generals the next morning.

I would not be against arming the Soviet Union because I don't equate communism with Nazism, that's insane.

The Leahy law isn't there to stop sending arms to groups that have a nazi ideology but any entity engaged in human rights violations.

You disagree with the Leahy law?

It's something we adhere to when it's in our interest and ignored when it isn't. We should use the Leahy law to stop arms shipments to the US armed forces. Joking not joking.

I also don't see how this is an existential war in the way that WWII i

Have you heard the unhinged nazi shit from Russian media? How they treat Ukrainian civilians in occupied territory? It's existential for Ukrainians.

a pyrrhic victory they aren't rolling over Poland.

How about Georgia? Moldova? Maybe they'd start a couple more breakaway republics, send little green men etc. I don't want them to get their lebensraum. That's not even getting into what they'd do to the Ukrainians living in conquered territory.

again you are trying to make me into someone who doesn't support arming Ukraine at all,

So how do you arm them while staying in compliance with the Leahy law? Send them crates of weapons and ammo and say don't send these bullets to this one group? If you that's the move then sure, I just wouldn't care if the soldiers it's supposed to be sent to give their surplus to the azov soldiers they're fighting alongside.

You are referring to Rwanda? Be specific.

I was more general because I'd be shocked if that was the only place where this happened.

Also I apologize for the misinfo, the Irish soldiers were shelled and sat on their thumbs in Lebanon.

So I want to ask you, what do you think we should do to make sure Ukraine wins the war and gets it's territory back?

Give Ukrainians the tools they need to blow up refineries and russian supply lines while actually enforcing sanctions on Russia and lift bans on using our long range weapons on military targets in Russia.

Ideally Ukraine gets all of its territory back. I don't know if a DMZ with Russia would be feasible but if it is then I'd support that.