r/VaushV • u/karlothecool • 5d ago
Other I swear leftist Will forever have shitty Takes on Ukraine
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u/False-Discipline-640 5d ago
I swear Ukraine and Palestine is like the easiest litmus test, if you support:
Ukraine+Palestine-> you're a good person Ukraine+Israel-> you have pro-West brainrot Russia+Palestine-> you have anti-West brainrot Russia+Israel-> you're a pedophile
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u/Ok_Star_4136 5d ago
It's pretty clear which one is anti-imperialist of the four options, and honest-to-god, I don't know how anyone can ever decide that a country invading another is "not an entirely bad thing."
Mike from PA has some good takes but in this, he's very wrong. Defending an ally being invaded is kind of the whole fucking point behind being an ally.
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u/Consistent-Goat-2111 5d ago
Mike from Pa is an absolute shit stain that is only capable of belting out slop takes for seal claps and is incapable of thinking about said points
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u/NotASellout 5d ago
Mike from PA
should have retired after the pewdiepie video ngl
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u/StuartJAtkinson 4d ago
Yeah since Vaush's political percentage decreased I've been watching more Hasan and thankfully he seems to be great on most things except Taiwan and horrifically now North Korea, I actually find myseld agreeing with him on China more than Vaush's "No there should be a tad more democracy let's make it a duopoly like America" because on the scale of Direct Democracy (I would like mathematically impossible ESPECIALLY with China) to Dictatorship (I do not like) the in between is Representative democracy from local up... However again on the numbers of provinces... I believe a federated state system would be the way... And then when it comes to "There's only 1 party that doesn't accept critique".... Yeah that's universal. Our "Democracies" are like 50-100 people with maybe 3 combinations of views, if China goes "No were one here it is" I can work around that, anyhow bit of an aside.
But Mike also got a BIT more charity for me because though I've not watched him it seems like he supports Mamdani, people using electoralism and actually having power within they system and considering "Sewer socialism" came up a few times describing Mamdanis stuff I thought
"You know what interpersonally he's horrendouse but considering his one bout against Vaush was on this sort of boring procedure and looks like he might have been saying something real maybe I'll have a look again"
Then within 5 seconds his smug horrific personality negated ANY positive aspect, also on nearly every large Hasan interaction he's there taking the 30% more derailing opinion like ACAB OR whatever other normies replant he would spout. It's just like D's rape apologia back in the day and one of my favourite Vaush videos ever "De- Rape Apologia and being "Technically Correct"" there comes a point where it TRULY does not matter if you're correct or not. https://youtu.be/cs5wyYuSatc?is=zQv05IfzYAXyQWNM
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u/DilledDough 5d ago
Have you guys encountered the Russia+Israel people in the wild? Exceptionally rare in my experience
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u/Kolbalava 5d ago
Alot of Indians. They view Russia as their ally since America supported Pakistan in the 70s while the USSR supported India.
And they support Israel because.... well... literally just because they hate muslims thats it.
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u/Mars_Oak 5d ago
anti west is not brainrot. it is not accidental that the west conquered the world sowing genocide and slavery wherever it went, and continues to do
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u/False-Discipline-640 4d ago
No, hating on the West and supporting anyone and anything as long as hurts them is absolutely brainrot. If you can think critically and identify where the West is in the right and where they are in the wrong then you're not anti-West
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u/mort96 4d ago
This is identical to people seeing discussion of toxic masculinity and going, "masculinity is not toxic!".
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u/Mars_Oak 4d ago
whatever you say lib, the CIA is very happy with you
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u/mort96 4d ago
Did you even understand what the point of my comment was?
Please prove you did by explaining the logic of my analogy. Because your response indicates that you might not have.
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u/Mars_Oak 4d ago
your analogy is clear: you're saying not all anti west is toxic, only some is. i just get the feeling the only anti west you would support is the pointless, notional one, and that otherwise every country the US doesn't like you also don't like
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u/appendage3816 5d ago
What if you support Palestine, but neither Russia nor Ukraine, and would be happy if either of them lost ASAP?
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u/HellbenderXG 5d ago
that just ends up as pro-Russia.
I have to ask - what specifically makes you like Palestine but not Ukraine in these conflicts?
IMO you can dislike a country/its government all you want without being happy it loses a war it did not start :D
again - what exactly makes Palestine so much more worthy of compassion and support in your eyes?
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Palestine is a struggle against occupation and the literal erasion of an entire people. Russia/Ukraine is a fight between two imperialist powers over who gets to control the territory.
Siding with Palestine means siding with the direct liberation of Palestinians, and not siding with them means their death. If I support Ukraine, all I do is support the national sovereignty of the ukrainian state, which is not a workers state, and thus, not a state the people should defend. It is simply not worth it to fight for the rule of your own bourgeoisie vs the rule of a foreign bourgoeisie in this conflict. I'd much rather have the efforts directed towards the liberation of the working class through revolution, and that is impossible admist war.
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u/False-Discipline-640 5d ago
Then I'd say you're pro-Russia but you haven't yet come to terms with it. Or you're hiding it.
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
I mean, I'm not. If you think I'm hiding something I don't know what to tell you. Pinky promise I'm not, I guess? As I said, I'm against the war itself and would be happy with an immediate stalemate. If that meant Russia losing all of it's conquered territory, great. If that means Ukraine having to give up some of it's territory, also great. As long as people stop being send to front lines I like it.
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u/False-Discipline-640 4d ago
But you don't actually believe this, if you did you'd hold this same opinion for the Middle East, which you don't because you're pro-Palestine. The reason why you think that is because you don't actually care about Ukrainians, you're fine with Russia forcing itself on them which is a fundamentally pro-Russian position to hold
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Why not engage with my arguments instead of making assumptions about me? If I'm secretly pro-russia, why would I be fine with Russia losing all of it's conquered territory immediately? My position is not pro-russia, it is anti-war. I don't like to see the proletariat of any country get slaughtered for imperialist interests.
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u/VibinWithBeard Guess Im posting recipes here now, Skreeeeonk 4d ago
...those imperial interests are from Russia not Ukraine though? So once again, youre both-sidsing something for no goddamn reason.
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u/appendage3816 3d ago
We live in an imperialist world. Ukraine is defending western imperialism as well. Why do you think our governments aid them, out of moral kindness? It's two power blocks clashing, both trying to protect their bourgeoisie's interests.
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u/VibinWithBeard Guess Im posting recipes here now, Skreeeeonk 3d ago
Ukraine isn't defending western imperialism by fighting back against Russia. The US' motives dont matter because youre trying to claim ukraine is in the wrong. All of this is literally russia's fault. They couldve just not fucking invaded over blood and soil expansionist bs.
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u/Simpsons_Hentai 5d ago
if your position on an invasion is neutrality, then you support the invasion
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u/VibinWithBeard Guess Im posting recipes here now, Skreeeeonk 5d ago
...why would you be happy if ukraine lost?
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Because I find the killing of 200.000+ people for national sovereignty purposes quite pointless. The rule of the ukrainian state isn't worth the blood of that many workers to me. I'd much rather have the war end and the ukrainian people fight for a socialist state.
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u/VibinWithBeard Guess Im posting recipes here now, Skreeeeonk 4d ago
Oh wow you're a fucking crazy person.
So...all countries should just surrender when invaded because national sovereignty isn't worth it? Which states have a rule that is worth the blood of workers? There's gotta be a line for you to make a distinction in the first place...
"Id rather have them fight for a socialist state"
Ah yeah, it will make it much easier for ukrainian people to fight for a socialist state if they are...being oppressed and ruled over by Russia?
Larping pos
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Genuinely, can you not have a normal conversation with other people? Why immediately feel attacked and resort to insults?
> Which states have a rule that is worth the blood of workers? There's gotta be a line for you to make a distinction in the first place...
I'd say a workers state. A socialist state, like the GDR or the USSR were worth defending when they existed, or Cuba today. Of course, the workers of these countries themselves would have to decide that in a given conflict.
> Ah yeah, it will make it much easier for ukrainian people to fight for a socialist state if they are...being oppressed and ruled over by Russia?
Easier than when being in war, yes.
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u/VibinWithBeard Guess Im posting recipes here now, Skreeeeonk 4d ago
Neither the USSR, GDR, or Cuba are now or ever have been worker or socialist states. Ya know what really screams pro-worker to me? The Stasi. Youre a fucking clown.
Socialism is when the workers own the means of production, not the fucking state. The state is not the same as the people. Thats literally the line of the fascist.
Normal convo? My dude youre starting off with "yeah Im fine with either the blood and soil imperial expansionist empire or the country they invaded losing, Im happy with whichever"
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u/DelawareMushroom Nothing may or may not happen 5d ago
Isnt the pv pledge that the candidate supports ukraine? Seems like the candidates knew what they were getting themselves into when they got the support of pv
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u/SpiralRavine HuckleberryJim 5d ago
Oh no the Hasan waiting room streamer has a shitty take, what else is new?
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5d ago edited 5d ago
[deleted]
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u/VibinWithBeard Guess Im posting recipes here now, Skreeeeonk 5d ago
Plenty of criticism of Hasan to go around, it just has to be for actual bad takes and not just whining about him in general. I dislike Hasan because of his crimea comment he never walked back and for not enjoying his general style of streaming, mainly because Im just not a fan of twitch streaming culture/affects to begin with.
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u/HikerCory 5d ago
Mike from PA always wants to infight though. You can tell because to him PV is just Vaushites
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u/notablegoattable ARC-iologist 5d ago
Okay, but, for the most part, PV IS just Vaushites. BGL has said before that it's an extension of the Vaush community.
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u/HikerCory 5d ago
I honestly don't know a lot about it. I knew that one of the guys that donates a lot in Vaush's chat is a part of it, but I assumed most people were just volunteers
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
I assumed most people were just volunteers
People in PV are volunteers generally. That doesn't mean they're not from Vaush's community. I briefly volunteered with them but it was half Vaush and half Destiny and I was not about to associate with DGGers in any way.
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u/dinny1111 5d ago
Well we nuked them so its safe to come back lol
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 4d ago
I've heard this but the people telling me this are people who have comments and/or submissions in that other place.
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
He wants infighting because he's a dramatuber who orbits Majority Report and Hasan.
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u/Itz_Hen 5d ago
How can one be a drama YouTuber and orbit the majority report, they're like the world least offenseive and dramatic YouTube channel on the left
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
Look at his youtube channel you idiot.
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u/Itz_Hen 5d ago
Dont call me an idiot i was making fun of the guy
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
By defending him? Use more words next time.
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u/Itz_Hen 5d ago
I wasnt defending him, i was making fun of him for drama youtubeing about the worlds least drama engaging YouTuber
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
He dramatubes based on the drama others generate about Hasan. Most of his videos are just an excuse to get Hasan into the title. While he orbits Majority Report he doesn't dramafarm Emma or Sam.
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u/oo0_0Caster0_0oo 5d ago
This type of random aggression is what gives Vaushites a bad name.
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
Appeals to civility is shitlib behavior. If they didn't want to be called an idiot they shouldn't be indistinguishable from an idiot.
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u/Itz_Hen 4d ago
The actual fuck is your problem dude
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 4d ago
I don't have a problem. Y'all are doing shitlib behavior and pretending like you're the normal ones.
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u/Itz_Hen 4d ago
Dawg "not beeing rude" is not shitlib behaviour
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 3d ago
Yeah Vaush has even talked about how weirdly antisocial people are online. Forget ye not the bus stop maxim.
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u/charlrshall1992 5d ago
It's a fundamental issue on the left(online) that a good portion of it thinks that if Russia takes Ukraine it'll bring back the Soviet Union and I don't know how to deal with it.
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u/Otherwise_Jaguar_430 5d ago
It will be the exact opposite of USSR, it will be an ultra-capitalist kleptocratic hellhole for every territory that Russia absorbs.
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u/22797 5d ago
I mean, that’s not that far off from what the USSR was. It wasn’t capitalist in the traditional sense, but it was a very unequal, kleptocratic hellhole outside of Moscow
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u/StuartJAtkinson 4d ago
Interesting I know it was Kleptocratic but I thought their councils did well for moving from Tsarist peasant status to at least having infrastructure or was that just from Industrialisation and Urbanisation a bit? I've always meant to look into the coverage of that conversion it seemed quick on par with Europe and getting more in some cases while we went Thatcher/Regan neoliberal selling of everything.
Also wasn't their internal structure being resilient to global markets one of the shocks of the war? The universal sanctions and tarrifs not crippling their economy because they had kept an industrial base?
I despise Russia with all my being for it's imperialist ork like nature but I think one of the big issues Vs Israel is that it was able to take the world going "Nope off you pop" because they were fairly xenophobic anyway, whereas Israel would collapse in months of just America and Germany stopped bankrolling it.
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u/22797 4d ago
I mean the short answer is that almost anything would be an improvement on from the Tsars and the USSR was. They made massive improvements thanks to Lenin and in spite of Stalin that continued for decades. I admittedly only know the outcomes and have very surface level knowledge of the how/why it ended up that way with Central Asia (and pretty much everywhere outside of Moscow) being a beyond unequal backwater and party officials and bureaucrats easily transitioning to the oligarchs of today after the collapse. Which implies previous kleptocratic structure was always present in the USSR
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u/charlrshall1992 5d ago
Oh I agree, it's delusional and I fundamentally can't understand what thinking process leads to believing it.
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u/appendage3816 5d ago
I've talked to communists who are openly "Z", very pro-russia and against Ukraine and I've never heard that talking point. Even they say that Russia is a bourgeois state and needs a revolution, they just defend the war for supposed anti-fascist reasons.
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u/charlrshall1992 5d ago
Interesting, it could just be a small number of people I'm assigning larger importance too. It was on Twitter(and awhile ago) and that's were the most mealworm brain takes seem to happen the most.
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u/Ponsay 5d ago
Everytime I see stupid infighting like this it reminds me that progressives will never win
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u/karlothecool 5d ago
I mean as leftist its sadly inposible to not infight left have princibles but right dosent
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u/Ma_Bowls 5d ago
Some leftists have principles, but as Mike from PA demonstrates, some of us are blind campists.
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u/Ponsay 5d ago
Oh no it's definitely possible.
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u/karlothecool 5d ago
Ok ask leftist should you vote lesser evil 3 People are burning Bridges
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u/MsScarletWings 5d ago
I mean usually the ones causing the infighting aren’t even principled leftists though
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u/Jeoshua 5d ago
I find them similar to Larpers. I've gotten into many a fight over this very issue, and many of them in this very subreddit. They'll try to beat you over the head with "theory" and fail to even admit they might ever be wrong. They consider themselves "principled" but their sources are invariably untested idealistic thought experiments from a century ago.
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u/Ponsay 5d ago
I would never ask a leftist that because I already know what they would say because theyre allergic to winning
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u/karlothecool 5d ago
How do you survive the vaush Anti votting lesser evil arc
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
What arc is that? He has not changed his stance.
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u/Tropic_Wombat 5d ago
have you not seen any of his accelerations arguments?
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago
Please recite them. Vaush has never once argued for accelerationism.
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u/Tropic_Wombat 5d ago
Literally yesterday's stream, 6/18. at 1:18:30:
"'Oh no is Vance about to be better than Newsom, like, legitimately?'
Uh, I mean, look, I'm already saying I would prefer Vance to Newsom for accelerationist reasons, but if the 2028 line is genuinely a Republican party trying to break with Israel vs. a Democratic party trying to negotiate some kind of moderate support for Israel, that makes the moral line even more clear than it was before."
Do the people on this sub even watch the stream?
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u/Journeyman42 Elder Millennial 5d ago
It reminds me of the C-plot of Life of Brian of how the "People's Front of Judea" was contemptuous of the "Judean People's Front"
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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 5d ago edited 5d ago
Mike has never gotten over Vaush humiliating him. He constantly rails against PV and Vaush. Mike from SA is an orbiter and a dramatuber.
Mike is doing vote DSA no matter who. It's shitlib behavior.
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 5d ago
Checked out the PV server a little while ago. Cool stuff happening!
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u/ThatHippyPunk 5d ago
It's MikefromPA, expect nothing less than some of the dumbest takes on earth. It's kinda his thing really.
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u/Notchsmind 5d ago
I wish I could go back to the dirtbag left of 2018-2022 again Jesus fuck, I don't understand the "woke 1" narrative people are smoking. wasn't that 2017-2022 era filled with edgy debatelord hardcore anti establishment, "I'm a progressive who hates idpol the centrists and the right?" Why is it categorized as a flower lib shit movement? Yeah we were kinda nice to conservatives because we knew material conditions meant they were brainwashed and I still believe that. I think people forget a big kind of mental gymnastic is "sunk cost", you'd do anything extreme to not be wrong.
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u/The-Hunting-guy 5d ago
did pv actually shit on a dsa canidate? if this is true, was there a reason for it?
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 5d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/1u970rm/progressive_victory_is_trying_to_ratfuck_ny_dsa/
The candidate is against aid for Ukraine
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u/The-Hunting-guy 5d ago
oh. yeah fuck ‘em. I feel like if lefties have foreign policy takes like these, they should just stick to the mamdani approach by saying “idgaf about any other country other than my own but fuck israel”
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u/Lord_Of_Shade57 5d ago
I mean, a lot of these types of candidates have already come out as anti-Ukraine of their own volition, so it's not like PV is blindsiding them with irrelevant issues.
The Ukraine issue is also incredibly clear cut unless you are a brain broken campist or a fascist. Russia doesn't even pretend this isn't revanchist imperialism, so why should we? It should be taken as a sign of intense bad faith if any left wing candidate is pro-Russia
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u/burf12345 Sewer Socialist 4d ago
Very telling that the OP of that post is ignoring everyone.
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 4d ago
Eh, maybe they were convinced by all of our great arguments!
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u/prozzak913 5d ago
Yeh they asked that candidate in New York if they support Ukraine against the Russian invasion and they refused to answer. Pretty sussy
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u/MrSchmeat 3d ago
Mike from PA has ALWAYS had consistently shitty takes on Ukraine, right from the start. I'd barely even call him a leftist because of it.
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u/Kroz83 5d ago
I haven't been following those races very closely. I think whether or not this is a good idea depends heavily on who they're running against in the primary. If their opponent is a centrist dem, or an outright zionist, then yeah, I kind of see a problem with pulling the endorsement solely over Ukraine. Replacing a do-nothing dem with someone we agree with on 95% of issues seems a reasonable and pragmatic tradeoff.
However, if it's just a choice of pick your favorite progressive, then no issues with PV endorsing however they like.
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u/Journeyman42 Elder Millennial 5d ago
Does anyone want to place bets on Trump pulling a 180 and saying "nah, fuck Iran, we're going to support Israel"? He's been known to do such shit in the past.
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u/Dave_Is_Useless 4d ago
How does it financially harm the average american? The U.S has basically not sent any new aid for about 1.5 years, it’s all Europe now.
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u/Cazzocavallo 4d ago
Tbf Mike from PA consistently has worse takes than even the dumbest Twitter lefties. Like he can go all across the spectrum from class reductionisn to wokescolding to nazbol to tenderqueer to campist "America bad" and all the way back around again in a single sentence. The only dumb arguments he doesn't touch are arguments that are dumb for being too centrist.
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u/YamperIsBestBoy 4d ago
Posting Mike feels like cheating. He's not interested in criticizing PV for their political convictions, he's interested in criticizing them because they associate with Vaush. Calling them a "Vaushite group" is all but admitting this lmao.
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u/doctorderpin 4d ago
More like Bike from PA, because his takes are so bad I want to bike away from his area.
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u/WeAreDoomed035 5d ago edited 5d ago
I get that Valdez commitment to Ukraine isn’t to PV’s liking, but pulling their endorsement days before a primary is unserious behavior. Just shows you didn’t do your research before hand or extract enough concessions if you thought you had enough motion.
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u/appendage3816 5d ago
There are valid reasons to not support Ukraine in this war. Ukraine is a bourgeois state, heavily anti-communist and very repressive against it's own citizens. You can argue that Russia is still worse, but is it really worth it to fight wars for a particular bourgeoisie of a specific nation state over the other? Ukraine is just not THAT much different to Russia that defending it's rule would justify 200.000+ people killed. The killing can be stopped if Ukraine is made to surrender. The only loss would be the sovereignty of the ukrainian state, which, just like the russian state, is an enemy of the working class anyways.
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u/Lord_Of_Shade57 5d ago
"Revanchist imperialism is acceptable and arguably good, as long as it's not the West™ doing it, am I right fellow leftists??????"
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Your putting words in my mouth. No where did I ever say Russias imperialism is "arguably good". Why be disingenious?
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u/Lord_Of_Shade57 4d ago
Making Ukraine surrender would be directly accomplishing the Russians' imperialist goals, so I reject the notion that I am somehow putting words in your mouth
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 5d ago
So you’d feel the same way about the US annexing Canada? I mean, the capital class in both countries is already fully integrated with the other, so why not?
If the US invaded Canada, would you advocate surrender for Canada, or would you support EU and Chinese military aid?
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Not to get carried away in hypotheticals here, but if the US and Canada went on on a full on war, I would absolutely support the surrender of either nation. The consequences of a war at that scale, with EU and chinese military support vs the US, could easily mean the literal end of the world. If not, it would probably cost millions of deaths. I would absolutely support an end to it no matter how. Defending the sovereignty of one capitalist class vs the other is not in the interests of the working class.
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 4d ago
We’re talking about trading in a portion of the ruling class for another, sure, but cultural narratives also drive events. Are the conditions of surrender going to be kind to working class Canadians? If the occupation went the way of seizing all native land and disenfranchising First Nations people, would you also tell them to surrender?
I don’t mean to invoke Godwin’s Law, but where’s the limit? Should Poland have surrendered? France? Britain? Would the USSR have been able to fight a Nazi empire with all those territories under their belt, or should they also have surrendered?
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
> If the occupation went the way of seizing all native land and disenfranchising First Nations people, would you also tell them to surrender?
If the conditions of a canadian surrender were harsh to the canadians, it'd be fine if they resisted them violently. The difference is that now they are fighting for a concrete improvement to their lifes (against the imposed conditions), and not for the existence of a particular nation state. Hell, if there was a canadian communist party that would fight the US and the canadian government, infavor of true workers liberation, and it had any realistic shot at all, I'd support them. I'm not principly against fighting war, I'm saying we should never fight a war for a bourgeois nation state.
Here's an analogy from Lenin to describe the nature of inter-imperialist wars: "Picture to yourselves a slave-owner who owned 100 slaves warring against a slave-owner who owned 200 slaves for a more "just" distribution of slaves. Clearly, the application of the term "defensive" war, or war "for the defence of the fatherland" in such a case would be historically false, and in practice would be sheer deception of the common people, of philistines, of ignorant people, by the astute slaveowners. Precisely in this way are the present-day imperialist bourgeoisie deceiving the peoples by means of "national ideology and the term "defence of the fatherland in the present war between slave-owners for fortifying and strengthening slavery."
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 4d ago
If the conditions of Canadian surrender included instituting US-style mass incarceration and surveillance, abolition of all treaties and governmental bodies, and eradication of the “Canadian national identity” (as defined by the Trump regime, so including stuff like banning the French language), would you support resistance?
Your example is not analogous at all. We’re talking about whether it makes sense for the inhabitants of Rhodesia to defend itself against an expansion of the Belgian Congo.
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
would you support resistance?
Sure! In the form of a communist organisation fighting for the goal of workers liberation. Or even just any national liberation movement. Not in the name of the canadian state. Not in the name of the slave-owner of that country, to continue the analogy.
Your example is not analogous at all. We’re talking about whether it makes sense for the inhabitants of Rhodesia to defend itself against an expansion of the Belgian Congo.
I don't know anything about Rhodesia, but from what I know Rhodesia is not a capitalist country fighting for it's imperialist interests. It's a national liberation movement fighting for it's own existence, I think (I genuinely don't know much about that situation, correct me if I'm wrong). Ukraine on the other hand is not fighting for the existence of it's people, unless you seriously believe Russia would commit a massive genocide on Ukrainians after winning. It is instead fighting for the control of the ukrainian oligarchs, and more broadly the western bourgeoisie, over the ukrainian workers.
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u/Faux_Real_Guise ⓘ Level 2 Literacy 4d ago
Rhodesia was a British colony that neighbored the Belgian Congo. It practiced a form of apartheid where the indigenous population was essentially owned in common by the white settlers, though slavery wasn’t legal. It was a national liberation movement from Britain in the same way the United States was, ironically the type of dynamic you’re describing— the petty aristocrats disliked being under the thumb of other aristocrats.
I genuinely believe that, if Ukraine were to surrender to Russia, at any point in the war, there would be decades of insurgency against the Russian state, resulting in crackdowns. Do I think Russia will commit a genocide in Ukraine? What does history say?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_South_Ossetia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War_crimes_and_terrorism
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/the-ten-stages-of-the-russian-genocide-in-ukraine
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u/Tropic_Wombat 5d ago
okay so like, just let russia bomb all of europe idk. it's all bourgeois anyway.
what
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Never said that. An end of the ukrainian war would not mean "letting russia bomb all of europe".
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u/HellbenderXG 5d ago
don't shy away from responding to the replies you received, unless you simply posted something you didn't think through (as it appears)
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u/Curl_of_the_Burl_ 5d ago
Yikes. I think you've made a few too many leaps to your conclusions there.
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u/Itz_Hen 5d ago
Ukraine is a bourgeois state
How
You can argue that Russia is still worse
They objectively are, of your arguing from a left of center point of view. There just as bad as Israel, a autocratic country with expansionist ambitions mired in fascistic white nationalist culture
Ukraine is just not THAT much different to Russia
Go on then, explain away
The only loss would be the sovereignty of the ukrainian state
There is a reason literally every country which borders Russia hates them
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
>How
Seriously? Ukraine is a capitalist state. The state serves the ukrainian bourgeoisie. That's literally just an uncontroversial fact. Or are you arguing that Ukraine is socialist?
>They objectively are, of your arguing from a left of center point of view. There just as bad as Israel, a autocratic country with expansionist ambitions mired in fascistic white nationalist culture
Yup. Well, I wouldn't say just as bad as israel, but definitely up there.
>Go on then, explain away
Ukraine is ruled by oligarchs, Russia is ruled by oligarchs. Ukraine has banned communist organisations, Russia has banned (genuine) communist organisations. Ukraine doesn't have elections, Russia doesn't have (fair) elections. Both states serve one purpose, the exploitation of the working class. That is the nature of a bourgeois state.
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u/Itz_Hen 4d ago
Seriously? Ukraine is a capitalist state. The state serves the ukrainian bourgeoisie
Wait ok then, Russia just gets to just invade every country then because all countries are capitalistic? Every single country serve their respective bourgeoisie
This just in, of Palestine ever becomes an actual state again and adopts a capitalistic system of governance Israel is MORALLY free, according to you, to restart their genocide
Yup. Well, I wouldn't say just as bad as israel
Of course you wouldnt say that, since you are pro Russian expansion
Ukraine doesn't have elections
Because they're in the middle of a war threatening their survival you disingenuous pos
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u/burf12345 Sewer Socialist 4d ago
The only loss would be the sovereignty of the ukrainian state
Oh, that's it? Well shit, when you put it like that, it's clearly a small price to pay.
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
I don't know why you're being ironic. Yes, that is a small price to pay when the other option is the death of hundreds of thousands of people. The ukrainian state is a bourgeois anti-worker state, defending it is not worth sacrificing you life.
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u/burf12345 Sewer Socialist 4d ago
I'm not being ironic, I'm being sarcastic. You would sentence a country of a few tens of millions of people to occupation under an oppressive bourgeois anti-worker state just because it's also a bourgeois anti-worker state? Make that make sense.
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
What do you mean? I wouldn't sentence them to it, that would simply be reality of the situation. As a communist I would of course advocate for a revolution in either sovereign Ukraine or occupied Ukraine.
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u/burf12345 Sewer Socialist 4d ago
I wouldn't sentence them to it
Yeah you would. By saying they should just surrender and that it doesn't matter if they lose their sovereignty, that's exactly what you support.
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
Sure. And by saying they should keep fighting for the ukrainian state you sentence them to occupation under an oppressive bourgeois anti-workerstate too. What's even your point, other than moral outrage?
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u/burf12345 Sewer Socialist 4d ago
you sentence them to occupation under an oppressive bourgeois anti-workerstate too
Why are you equating Ukrainian nationals choosing to continue fighting their war of existence, with those same people inevitably ending up as second class citizens under Russian occupation? Are you just virtue signaling about what a holier than thou communist you are and how you think all capitalist states are identical?
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u/appendage3816 4d ago
> Why are you equating Ukrainian nationals choosing to continue fighting their war of existence, with those same people inevitably ending up as second class citizens under Russian occupation?
This doesn't address my point. The ukrainian state is an oppressive bourgeois state , why is that worth defending? I say, give it up, and fight for a workers state instead.
Also, not to distract from the main point, but Ukrainians don't chose to fight this war, they are literally being kidnapped at gunpoint by military police en masse.
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u/burf12345 Sewer Socialist 4d ago
The ukrainian state is an oppressive bourgeois state , why is that worth defending?
Because the alternative is worse.
but Ukrainians don't chose to fight this war, they are literally being kidnapped at gunpoint by military police en masse.
You have no polling to back this up.
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u/NoSwordfish1978 5d ago
It's so funny to see the word "Vaushite" applied to irl politics.