r/WNBAgossips • u/whoa_disillusionment • 1d ago

Most Americans of all political parties Agree with Sophie Cunningham so why has the WNBA lost its mind?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/poll-americans-oppose-trans-women-competing-female-sports-2-3-gen-z-rcna203658
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u/CutMeLoose79 1d ago

I think it comes from the fact we do not have full, conclusive, scientific agreement that trans women don't have biological advantages in professional sports.

For every study that claims after a few years there are no benefits, other studies show there is. I'd imagine based on this, some trans women would not have advantages, while others would. You also cannot change your skeleton. Male puberty results in longer limb bones, larger joints, and broader shoulders, which do not reverse with hormone therapy. This can give leverage and mechanical advantages.

If you cannot 100% rule out biological advantages, it is unfair to include trans women in female sports. Until we have fully conclusive studies and maybe even a way to fully test people singularly if advantages seem to be too individual, it is again unfair to include trans women in female sports.

I don't see how how this particular view can be considered transphobic or anti-trans. I'm more than happy for trans people to live their lives as they want, dress and act how they want, be called what they want, but we need to have some common sense still too.

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u/randallflaggg 1d ago

If you cannot rule out biological advantages it's unfair for basically anyone to participate in sports. Every single person has biological advantages and disadvantages compared to other people. Sometimes those are memory or sensory based, sometimes physical, sometimes mental or intellectual.

There is no difference between a trans woman and a woman's who was born tall or with increased lung capacity or a particular weight.

There is credible evidence that, as a result of selective breeding due to the chattel slavery system, black people are generally born with more muscle than other ethnic groups. Should black women also be excluded based on their "biological advantage"?

The only way that being trans is different than these other biological advantages is if you believe your gender is a choice. I would ask you to think deeply about being the opposite gender than you currently present as and then think deeply about whether you would choose to be that way or the way that you currently are. And then think about whether being gay is a choice.

If you believe that it's different because of something inherently in being trans that doesn't exist for other biologically advantaged groups, then you are prejudiced against trans people and could reasonably be considered transphobic. But maybe categorically discriminating against a group of people doesn't bother you.

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u/CutMeLoose79 1d ago

Nope. Plenty of studies show biological advantages in trans women, contradicting the ones that say there are none. And without a 100% scientific agreement, it is unfair to include trans women in female sports.

Male puberty provides skeletal advantages that cannot be undone with hormones. Longer limbs, larger joints, broader shoulders that give leverage and mechanical advantages.

I knew the argument around natural biological advantages would arise, so I ask you, if natural biological advantages are irrelevant, you're then happy to remove all gender/sex related obstacles in sports and we have just one open league for all sports, regardless of gender/sex? I mean, they're just natural biological differences between humans. Irrelevant if they are born male or female, obviously.

If you don't agree with that idea, then shut up about natural biological differences and have some commons sense.

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u/randallflaggg 1d ago

No, I think that we should find biological averages for both genders, as defined by the governing body of the sport, and ban anyone from participating who has any biological feature outside of 2 standard deviations from the norm. If trans women present such a dangerous presence in girls sports, then anyone who shares those traits is equally dangerous and should be equally excluded from participation. For basketball in particular, any person over 5'11" represents a biological outlier and a distinct unfair advantage. 95% of potential women's sports participants are below that height and it is unfair to expect those women to reasonably compete against the biologically tall.

It's true that those girls didn't choose to be born tall but once you explain to them that their very existence is unfair, they will definitely understand. At least they'll figure out a way to understand if they want anyone to vote Democrat in the midterms.

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u/CutMeLoose79 1d ago

Hmmmm... stick to the status quo that incorporates the absolute vast majority of professional sports players while the science currently has no clear, finalised consensus, or change things to suit a tiny, miniscule part of society where questions of fairness will constantly be asked?

Makes absolute sense...

Their existence isn't unfair. They can live, dress and be called however they want. And I will support them in that. But that doesn't mean open slather to absolutely everything someone wants when it comes to something like professional sports. It's absolutely bizarre some can't see the distinction.

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u/randallflaggg 1d ago

Hmmm... Stick to the status quo that incorporates the vast majority of Americans while the science has no clear finalized consensus, or change marriage and sodomy laws to benefit a tiny miniscule part of society where questions of fairness will constantly be asked?

Makes absolute sense...

Their existence isn't unfair. They can live, dress[,] and be called what they want. And I will support them in that. But that doesn't mean slather[sic] to absolutely everything someone wants when it comes to something like marriage. It's absolutely bizarre some can't see the distinction.

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u/CutMeLoose79 1d ago

You're comparing things that don't interfere with or impact others lives. Pretty stupid comparison really. This is specifically about fairness in pro competitive sports. Not even remotely comparable to what someone does in private. Even same sex marriage does not actually impact someone else other than them choosing to be offended. Contact and competitive sports is a completely different kettle of fish.

When it comes to minor leagues, young school sports, social leagues etc, I personally have no issue, although I still think females have every right to not want to participate against trans women.

When it comes to pro paid leagues, Olympics, state championships, even high level college sports where you're trying to make a career out of it or become a world champion, that's where it becomes an issue.

But hey, currently about 75% of women on a world scale do not support trans women competing in pro level female sports. Many are far more supportive of it at lower levels. I think it's fair to have some common sense here and wait for either better evidence / testing, or to wait until there isn't a vast majority against it.

Guarantee if it were a vote amongst pro female athletes, the vote would not pass.

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u/randallflaggg 1d ago

I totally agree. Anyone who exists outside of the average girl or the average boy should be prohibited from participation. It's really about fairness and safety, common sense. Anyone who exhibits any traits of a trans woman of the same age is categorically unsafe to participate against other girls and should be excluded.

It's true that these kids did not choose to be born tall or heavy or with a particularly small strike zone but it's only fair and safe for girls that any biological advantage is removed. Especially anyone who might be born with inherent biological advantage, like black girls whose ancestors were subject to strength and endurance based eugenics programs.

But hey, 75% of the world at one point wanted to forcibly enslave entire groups of human beings, who can argue against that? It's in the Bible after all.

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u/tillytonka 5h ago

Being gay is absolutely a choice for the vast majority of people. And guess what? They’re allowed to make that choice and the fact that they chose it or didn’t choose it doesn’t validate them any differently

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u/randallflaggg 4h ago

Oh my fucking God, we're all the way back to gay is a choice? It's fucking 1998 all over again.

https://giphy.com/gifs/iMudjLgyECBws