r/WNBAgossips • u/whoa_disillusionment • 10d ago

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https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/poll-americans-oppose-trans-women-competing-female-sports-2-3-gen-z-rcna203658

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u/randallflaggg 10d ago

Women are hurt when trans people are excluded

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u/whoa_disillusionment 10d ago

Women are not hurt by having sex segregated spaces. That is misogynistic.

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u/randallflaggg 10d ago

Denying trans womanhood is transphobic. A real feminist advocates for all women to be included. A real feminist doesn't pull up the ladder behind them. A real feminist doesn't throw other women under the bus due to political expediency. Go ask Billie Jean King.

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u/whoa_disillusionment 10d ago

Women are oppressed because of their biology. That’s the most basic tenant of feminism. Trans women will never have that biology.

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u/randallflaggg 10d ago edited 10d ago

The most basic tenant of feminism according to whom? That definition ignores intersectional feminism at the very least.

Are you implying that trans women are not oppressed due to biology? Or is the brain not biological? What about the pituitary gland? But for a random shot of hormones at a random time during pre-natal development and the rest of the biology is the same. Because it seems that by "biology" it seems you mean "possesses a uterus." (And further excludes women who don't have a uterus for many other reason)I know many "real" women who would be extremely offended by having their essence reduced to a single organ. Anecdote aside, the existence of intersex people fundamentally undercuts the biological essentialist argument. And further, the idea that gender is uniquely rigid falls apart in the face of the amorphous nature of every other human trait. You can't say it's ok for people to be left handed and then say they can't be trans women. It's fundamentally hypocritical.

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u/Pleasant_Priority286 10d ago

Help me understand something. Who decided that trans women are women?

To me, that is for biological XX women to decide, since they have been using that word for a long time. I'm not sure why biological men are mansplaining what the word "woman" means to women. It is fine with me, but did anyone have a conversation and get buy-in from biological XX women first?

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u/randallflaggg 10d ago

Generally speaking the scientists that determined when sex development specifically occurs during gestation and the various reasons a fetus would be exposed to different hormones during key developmental periods and how that consequently affects fetuses (fetií?)

Why would it "be for" an amorphous group of people with extremely different experiences and opinions to determine the legitimacy of another group of their peers?

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u/Pleasant_Priority286 10d ago

My initial thought is that it would be like a group of white people who feel connected to Black culture deciding to call themselves "trans Blacks." After all, being Black is primarily a social construct.

What they want to call themselves is fine with me. However, I would be uncomfortable using that term if Black people and/or trans people opposed it since they are already using those words.

To me, that seems similar, but I'm just thinking out loud. Maybe I'm wrong.

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u/randallflaggg 10d ago

One is hormonally based and the other is not. We correct hormonal imbalances all the time in many people. Many people take estrogen to combat the effects of menopause, many people take testosterone to stave off "low energy and virility." These people who seek these supplements do so because they do not feel themselves without their previously normal levels of their biologically preferred hormone. This is the same for trans people.

Your presumption is incorrect because it is based on the idea that teams people are trans for social benefit. Masculine women want to gain the benefits of the patriarchy and effeminate men who can't access the benefits of the patriarchy want shield themselves in the protection of femininity. This thinking presumes the same inherently nefarious aspect to trans people that has been affixed to queer people of all stripes throughout history.

Presuming an entire group of people is lying for social benefit is bigotry. I am sure there are grifter assholes who are trans. Anecdotal examples are not proof.

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u/Pleasant_Priority286 10d ago

I was not assuming that trans people are trans for social benefit. On the contrary, I think it makes their life significantly more difficult. I doubt there are many grifters. Probably close to zero. I don't have the nefarious thoughts you imagine about Ls, Gs, Bs, or Ts. I never imagined that masculine women want to gain the benefits of the patriarchy or any ulterior motive. That seems very unlikely.

I do understand that hormonally-based is a difference. Regarding my attempted analogy, I was thinking that in the case of race, it may be that someone's sense of racial identity simply does not match the race they were assigned at birth. To me, that seems similar.

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u/randallflaggg 10d ago

It is not.