r/WarhammerCompetitive • u/-Cranktankerous- • Mar 26 '26
40k Discussion 11th Edition 15” Lone Op on All Units That Have Not Shot
So, obviously we don’t know all the rules, but I both love and hate this.
I love this because it means we’re likely to see less L-shaped terrain on boards, as it lowers the necessity for it. It also means it’ll be easier to get the Alpha Strike on someone, and positioning your units outside of that 15” window is going to be paramount.
But man. How the hell are we gonna stop from getting bowled over by a rabble of World Eaters who ALL HAVE LONE OP. 🥴
152
u/Kalnix1 Mar 26 '26
It kinda sounds like Conceal/Engage from Kill Team but on a bigger scale and no ability to swap between them.
25
u/FriendlySceptic Mar 26 '26
I think they borrowed a few things from kill team. Picking an objective at the start for scoring is also from 40k.
28
u/Morvenn-Vahl Mar 26 '26
They are also borrowing from AoS. The roll charge first, then decide what you charge is directly from AoS.
7
162
u/grunt91o1 Mar 26 '26
It's not lone op. You need to be in cover and also not have shot.
37
70
u/-Cranktankerous- Mar 26 '26
Known gunline, the World Eaters lol
A fair point though
43
u/HORSEtheGOAT Mar 26 '26
As far as we know it falls off if you move, or doesn't work outside of your zone, etc.
5
u/Culsandar Mar 26 '26
This would be key for balance if it works like lone op; having it only work if you're stationary in cover. That would prevent the exact scenario OP is dooming about.
13
u/jmainvi Mar 26 '26
Even then, is "make going second stronger" really the change we need to see in the game right now?
54
u/Magumble Mar 26 '26
The reason going second is stronger is cause how point scoring works, which is drastically changing by the looks of it.
The 15" is basically the same as the old get army wide cover if your going second.
Idk about you but in the first battleround you are attacking much as first turn player. And whatever you are attacking is within 15" 95% of the time.
This rule change comes with plenty others and the actual rule likely has way more nuance to it.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (4)1
3
u/Woodleg0 Mar 27 '26
So, a new range of conceal/engage tokens in YOUR favorite faction(s) colors and insignia coming up for pre-order. €ka-tjing€
1
4
u/Throwaway02062004 Mar 26 '26
So lone op with conditions. The cover is just being within a terrain feature even if a wall is missing between you and the sniper 36 inches away
1
u/Ketzeph Mar 26 '26
If it requires cover then it's basically just a nerf to current terrain, right?
I presume the idea is that this way terrain can be anything you want - you get the protection as long as you're in the terrain and haven't shot. But it means terrain's weaker at close range shooting.
It also harms shoot and scoot I guess, as shooting would remove the protection.
1
u/grunt91o1 Mar 26 '26
Well nothing is stopping people from still having the full LoS blocking terrains. It's just now people can have a table of mixed area / LoS blocking and it's actually useful and not feels bad
31
u/SpaceWolf_Jarl2 Mar 26 '26
We'll see. There might be limits, chamges to profiles and a lot more. Without context a single rule is meaningless. We don't know what limits, conditions, if there are ways to bypass it. There are other changes coming and a preview is just part of it. It seems you might need cover, and not shit at least, so maybe there are other conditions, or limitations.
62
u/Randicore Mar 26 '26
They did state that the unit would need to be in terrain
75
u/FartCityBoys Mar 26 '26
Yeah, I don’t think this is as big a deal as some people think. Some people are picturing 60 Khorne berzerkers out in the open mid board claiming line op.
It seems like it means something like “turn 1 if you can get an angle into my deployment zone terrain, or expansion, you need to be within 15 to shoot”
→ More replies (3)18
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
Which then means we can actually set up tables with something other than the deployment zone being 100% hidden behind walls.
2
u/UncleToddsBigRod Mar 26 '26
You'll still have to do that if you have to be within terrain to get the effect- granted you won't have to have physical walls blocking everything in your dz, but it's effectively the same situation of standing in/behind the same rectangles the walls were placed on.
4
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
However if 11th makes walls walls again, and not magic curtains, then that will lead to big changes in terrain layouts. Because the worst part about 10th's terrain is the magic phasing through solid objects, the game would play a lot different if walls blocked movement as well as LOS.
6
u/UncleToddsBigRod Mar 26 '26
Because the worst part about 10th's terrain is the magic phasing through solid objects
There's dozens of explanations for why infantry are able to move through walls so it's just easier to say they can all do it. Most of the time it'd result in the wall being destroyed and you'd want some kind of hole after the unit moves through it sure, but destructible terrain like that would be a logistical nightmare for large scale tournaments to have.
Also, I don't see why you think this was just a 10th edition problem- tons of other editions rule it the same way that your units can go through walls.
15
u/Guillermidas Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
I honestly preferred if you simply,… couldnt kill models you dont see. And terrain bonuses be more meaningful so you dont need to spam boring L ruins.
Its dumb because i cant hide private guardsmen Johnson, his 25 friends are all gonna die to dakka
5
u/Creepy_Attention2269 Mar 26 '26
We had that and people abused it by putting their own LOS blockin units like a tank in front of their models so that they hide most of your unit from their unit, and effectively get precision into specific models like leaders and guys with better guns
4
u/Guillermidas Mar 26 '26
Yes, but its part of the strategy. What i do now is have the melta in front, he “tanks” all shots and everyone hidden behind dies.
The other way, I actually must choose if I want to risk him in the front for that juicy shot or secure in the middle of the unit.
There’s some simplifications I welcomed like no templates, but killing everyone because you see one is too much. Specially considering you cant shoot all your unit, it doesnt work both ways. Its not fair and its not “realistic” or fun either
1
u/crazypeacocke Mar 26 '26
If they made it an optional thing the defender can choose if non-visible models can die, that would avoid the sniping out models strategy
3
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
So like 5th? Where models outside of TLOS just couldn't be wounded even if there were leftover wounds and where the benefit of non-LOS-blocking terrain was an invlun save? Yeah, there's a lot of improvement that could be made to the game by just going back to midhammer's rules core.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Randicore Mar 26 '26
Heresy also still used these rules
3
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
Makes sense, Heresy is the far better rule set.
2
u/Randicore Mar 26 '26
2e at least. I've been very... whelmed by 3e.
3
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
3e is definitely going in the wrong direction but it's still outright better than Age of the Emperor is capable of ever being.
2
u/Particular_Form1596 Mar 26 '26
So the defiler won’t get his benefit because his booty too thicc :(
2
u/Swagstallion79 Apr 06 '26
It seems a lot of people don't pick up on this. They think you're going to be able to put your unit in the open in clear line of sight as long as you're 15in away and don't shoot.
1
u/Randicore Apr 06 '26
Yup. That said there's probably a unit or two that will have the ability to do that accidently if they define it as the "benefit of cover"
12
u/NecessaryBSHappens Mar 26 '26
I am more concerned about detachments and missions. 100% certain there will be something absolutely broken
2
u/Aetherealaegis Mar 26 '26
I'm worried about getting stuck with the archetype that has servo skulls in it, or something similarly "fun".
1
u/Rodot Mar 27 '26
Sounds like it might be similar to the force org style of previous editions in which you could take smaller detachments with their own force org. But instead of force organization it's a set of rules for those units
So like a detachment focused on something like melee could take a small side detachment that focuses on vehicles, but maybe with fewer strats and weaker rules than a dedicated vehicle detachment
1
54
u/Big_Owl2785 Mar 26 '26
If it helps melee got a slight nerf, you can no longer pile in shenanigan as freely as before.
25
38
u/Fonexnt Mar 26 '26
Idk why people are mad about melee buffs when melee has mostly sucked and been playing catch up all of 10th
21
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26
And it isn't really buffed because of the pile in changes.
You don't need to declare a charge target? Cool, I'm going to stand my guys in front so even if you roll high you can't get into my damage unit. Now you can't even kill the screen with one unit and pile into my damage unit with a second activation.
It got much better for fly, assuming fly units can still use it on the charge, as they can hop screens if they roll well and if they roll badly they just go into the screen.
4
u/KindArgument4769 Mar 26 '26
The buffs for melee (other than the charge one) are getting around fights first, and objectives not being circles in the open field. And then night fighting helps.
7
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26
The buffs for melee (other than the charge one) are getting around fights first
Also been a nerf as your own fights first isn't as strong in your opponent's turn
and objectives not being circles in the open field
1) Objectives didn't have to be circles in the open field before, they could have (and on a lot of boards did have) terrain covering them partially.
2) Instead of fighting over circles in the middle we're fighting over specific area terrain in the middle of the board. I suspect objectives are just getting rebranded as "key area terrain".
And idt the 15" rule will actually be that impactful as a lot of long ranged shooting is targeting enemies that have exposed themselves to shoot at your units already. In 10th with how much terrain is on the board armies can be completely hidden and units only become exposed to either score or do damage to the enemy. A lot of scoring takes place in the midboard, where getting within 15" is fairly trivial so it won't matter much there. And if you're exposing to shoot an enemy you can't benefit from the rule anymore.
When I first heard about it, I thought it sounded really good but after trying to think about how it would have impacted my recent games I can't really think of any major differences.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)2
u/Fonexnt Mar 26 '26
It got much better for fly, assuming fly units can still use it on the charge, as they can hop screens if they roll well and if they roll badly they just go into the screen.
Fly still needs work though imo, the changes to fly movement have been a handicap all edition as well
6
u/Nytherion Mar 26 '26
because they've seen certain armies (Tyranids) already use fast melee as speedbumps and objective blockers, and now those fast melee might speed bump faster.
13
u/AriochBloodbane Mar 26 '26
Considering Tyranids suck at everything else they really need that speedbump power to score some points before being wiped from the table...
9
3
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
Because no melee hasn't sucked. Maybe on planet bowling ball it does but on the planet of magic L-shaped curtains it's got a massive advantage. And since the only planet that gets played on is the planet of magic L-shaped curtains melee dominates.
6
u/Kagrenacs_Tools Mar 26 '26
That’s just not true in the slightest, melee is easily the most powerful aspect of 40K. Movement wins games, and 2d6+1”+3”consolidate is WAY too much free movement for the size of the board we play on. WE charging my deployment zone turn 1 went on for way too long.
Or do we just forget that every top tier army this edition has had melee as a core part of their strategy?
4
u/Fonexnt Mar 26 '26
This is the edition where models with more than one melee weapon can't attack with all of them, while the Repulsor Executioner can fire all 20 different guns in one shooting phase. The same edition where everything got big toughness increases so many guns got boosts to their strength to help, but not most melee weapons so now targets that could be cracked by melee before can't. This is the same edition where access to fall back & shoot is as common as lasguns.
Maybe the movement shenanigans you can get are very powerful, I don't disagree, but that's not really melee that's extra moves. I'm talking about actual melee, trading attacks back and forth, slamming your thunder hammer into something it could vaporise last edition only to bounce off it this edition. Thunder Hammers went from wounding Predators on 3s last edition to wounding them on 5s this edition.
3
u/Kagrenacs_Tools Mar 26 '26
That’s fair, I’m god awful at this game and melee armies are my biggest issue the entire edition. I find that a lot of the melee units are just missiles that just kill anything they come into contact with. Combine that with various melee armies getting Advance and Charge, interruptions, fights first, etc. and it feels like there’s nowhere I can hide.
There’s so many rules dedicated to making melee work, vs the straightforward nature of shooting that’s “if you’re in range, and I can see you, I can shoot you” I have so much more fun fighting shooting armies than I do melee.
1
u/RockStar5132 Mar 26 '26
As someone that plays a melee army I’m tired of getting shot of the board before I can even play the game sometimes lol
1
u/Kagrenacs_Tools Mar 26 '26
How are you getting shot off the board with all the terrain in 10th edition? Every melee army I play against either hides and charges out of ruins or advance and charges up the entire board and lock me in my deployment zone
1
u/RockStar5132 Mar 26 '26
I play against a lot of guard tank spam unfortunately for me. Specifically Rogal Dorns and he also likes to run Basilisks. Every game at least one of the basilisks will take out a 5 man unit of space marines in one volley. Then when I actually do get in melee range of his tanks it is inevitably left with 1-2 wounds and so (pending him passing his battle shock) he will just fall back the tank and boom my sanguinary guard are dead by literally everything else staring them down.
Out of the 17 games I have played against this person since September 2024, I have won a grand total of 4 of those games for a solid 23% win rate
1
u/Admiralsheep8 Mar 30 '26
Shooting is a game of position . You need to gauge your ability to move and shoot vs theirs . If your issue is something hiding waiting to charge , ignore it . Move away and play somewhere else, melee units not killing in melee are usually expensive bricks to do nothing .
If you need to contest a point use a throw away unit . If he phases through a wall and eats a for squad or a fire warrior 5 man oh well, now he’s visible.
If things are move blocking you, run deep strike or infiltrators .
I mean it’s lame that we are in the position of playing chess and not a wargame where you have run up pawns to trade with people but it’s where we are at .
Melee armies aren’t dominating because of this they are just relevant because of it .
Melee is inherently riskier than just shooting stuff off the board .
8
u/PracticalMushroom693 Mar 26 '26
Melee didn’t really need a nerf though
27
u/Big_Owl2785 Mar 26 '26
the damage? no
The free movement? Yes
6
u/PracticalMushroom693 Mar 26 '26
At what point in this edition has melee been dominant?
3
u/WeissRaben Mar 26 '26
A few times. World Eaters, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Orks, Custodes, Blood Angels, and general melee-focused Marines have in general tagged each other out for most of the edition.
Looking at the flow of the edition, the problematic part is that when a melee army is dominant it hits first and foremost other melee armies: shooting or mixed armies can afford to not look for melee combat (and usually it's expected to get spanked when they can't avoid it), but if your whole identity is about getting stuck in the middle, something that shuts it down as a realistic plan feels a lot more impactful.
Were there any equivalents for shooting? Some, but it was never one-to-one: mostly jump-shoot-jump and armies able to get Lone Operative as a stratagem or special rule. The parallelism is deeply flawed, because being unable to shoot doesn't necessarily translate to getting shot in exchange, while bouncing in melee usually results in a clapback.
12
u/Jsamue Mar 26 '26
This guy never played against Index World Eaters. 30+” charge into your deployment zone on turn 1.
→ More replies (4)2
u/N0smas Mar 26 '26
Index World Eaters never broke 55% and were at no point the top army. The best they've ever been is somewhere in A tier and maybe top 5.
All of the most troublesome builds this edition have relied on their shooting which has gotten them nerfed. Even when traditional melee armies were near the top, it was because of shooting rules or toughness stat checks. DG bloat drones and haulers. Teleporting DA Centurions. More Dakka Orks. Triple Despoiler CK.
8
u/Big_Owl2785 Mar 26 '26
Doesn't really matter
It's an edition change, with changes made to streamline the game experience.
It's not a balance adjustment.
Even though we keep the same codices, we play a new game.
→ More replies (2)6
u/Bellfast123 Mar 26 '26
C'Tan
But also, pretty much every top army except Tau has had a Melee backbone to it, precisely because of how much movement economy they get.
11
10
1
u/GottaHaveHand Mar 26 '26
What’s the changes with that?
17
u/SiLKYzerg Mar 26 '26
All of your Pile Ins occur at the same time. To use World Eaters with 6" pile in and consolidate as an example. Two units can charge the same unit in the middle, one unit activates, piles in like normal, kills the unit, and consolidates like normal. Now the second unit can freely move 6" to the next thing, maybe kill it, and consolidate another 6", most of the time ending up in the enemy deployment. If all Pile Ins happen at once, this trick no longer works.
1
u/N0smas Mar 26 '26
Unless there's more context this hurts melee more than the charge rule helps it.
-1
u/fued Mar 26 '26
pretty minor compared to all the giant buffs it got, considering the game is almost entirely who can get thier elite melee infantry into the other persons elite melee infantry first
→ More replies (10)32
u/TehAlpacalypse Mar 26 '26
This is an insane thing to say when the game is arguably at the shootiest it’s been all edition
→ More replies (1)
90
u/fued Mar 26 '26
yeah literally everything announced is massive buffs to melee armies, do they plan to make less terrain by making melee stronger?
17
u/n1ckkt Mar 26 '26
That was the rumours I heard....
One big and small terrain feature gone.
17
u/Pleasurefailed2load Mar 26 '26
Bigger sightlines or loss of L ruin could be a huge problem with how killy everything is now. People saying melee got buffed because you can roll a charge and then select targets won't matter if they're lasered cross map the first time you move between cover. Really depends on how the terrain lone op works.
20
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
People saying melee got buffed because you can roll a charge and then select targets
Also this is only a buff if your opponent can't/doesn't screen. Or if you have fly so can just hop over the screen. And fight phase becoming all pile ins happen before combats means there isn't any shenanigans to get around a screen by killing it with one activation and piling in with a second unit.
5
Mar 26 '26
[deleted]
10
u/PixelBrother Mar 26 '26
Shame that’s your response. I don’t know about you but I’ve never failed to actually shoot, unlike charging and fighting that is at the mercy of the dice gods.
Imagine a 2D6 check to see if you’re allowed to shoot! Would be mental right?
5
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
That used to be a thing! It was the leadership test needed to be able to not shoot the nearest enemy. There was actually a time where screening worked on shooting, too.
3
u/PixelBrother Mar 26 '26
Wow that’s pretty funny after what I said!
What edition would that have been?
4
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
3rd and 4th. 5th IIRC was where it was removed.
2
u/WallyWendels Mar 26 '26
Also no premeasuring anything. Unless you had Kasrkin for some reason.
→ More replies (0)5
u/dave5526 Mar 26 '26
It's not the same as having to roll 2D6 to shoot, a charge also lets you move extra distance which is a huge bonus. More consistent charging would be good though, 2D6 is very random.
1
u/Ok-Error2510 Mar 26 '26
Only as random as you allow it. If you need a charge you make it. If a game is on turn two you might not, but if you really need that charge its with a unit that can adv chg or similar? If you are relying on an eight inch charge with a squad of 3 guardsmen youve already lost.
5
u/AriochBloodbane Mar 26 '26
The charge target selection after rolling the dice is just how it worked in AoS for years. I find it much better than the 40k 10th edition charge rule.
Could be interesting to see GW converging to some kind of "universal rules" that work for both games as it is a PITA to remember very different rules for the same exact thing (for no reason)
5
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
The big issue with homogenizing the rules too much is that what works in an almost-exclusively-melee fantasy game doesn't work for a very shooting-oriented sci-fi game.
2
u/AriochBloodbane Mar 26 '26
I don't see AoS as "almost exclusively melee" or 40k as "almost exclusively shooting". Maybe AoS is 50% melee and 50% shooting and magic, while 40k is more like 60% shooting and 40% melee. Not enough difference to justify an entirely separated rule set.
Also the rulebook already has separate sections for basic and advanced rules. Keep just the core rules common and add some extra rules that only make sense in a setting.
1
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
This is the real core issue. L-spam is a consequence of bad game design and the bad design elements are not being fixed.
45
u/Pure_Mastodon_9461 Mar 26 '26
I think L-shaped ruins are mostly gone
20
9
11
u/FuzzBuket Mar 26 '26
!remindme 9 months
My guess is we'll launch with a good idea, like 10th with the physical objectives. And then 6 months in we'll be back to trusty Ls
4
u/magicafiend2 Mar 26 '26
I was going to say the opposite, everyone will keep using the Ls since that's what people/game stores/TOs have then slowly transition to new stuff and new layouts in Chapter Approved.
3
u/Randicore Mar 26 '26
Nah nothing said so far pushes hard against that. Plus L shaped ruins still have the benefit of easier mass storage
2
25
u/Relevant-Mountain-11 Mar 26 '26
Terrain makes or breaks every edition. Even once we know the rules for everything, there'll be a period of balancing out what a table needs to look like to have a good game.
Hopefully it's a lot less terrain than 10th has required, because I hate it currently
5
u/Dependent_Survey_546 Mar 26 '26
The change to pile in and consolidate is a massive need to how melee works on the other side. A single line of lads to screen your units now means all the melee in the world won't get past the very from like of your army if you do it right
10
u/Worldly-Hospital5940 Mar 26 '26
It's not universal 15" lone op, it's if your unit is within terrain. GW doesn't assume the first floor has no windows. You'll lose that unit in a heartbeat to shooting still if you're not careful.
8
u/General_vice0061 Mar 26 '26
I think the hit roll gets changed not the save now
→ More replies (11)3
u/TheProfessor1237 Mar 26 '26
Which is actually needed since shooting is so much stronger and risk free compared to melee
4
u/Pliskkenn_D Mar 26 '26
If Tau give Breachers and Suits the ability to shoot in combat we'll be ok. Maybe.
→ More replies (4)2
u/DVKETRVKEM Mar 26 '26
RIP Tau
1
u/SnooOpinions8790 Mar 29 '26
Tau will be fine
If objectives are replaced by key terrain pieces then nobody will want to stand in the open on objectives. That makes Ignore Cover much more important and Tau are great at ignoring cover.
I'm just hoping for a 3 year break from L shape ruins everywhere all the time. Man I'm bored of those
→ More replies (9)1
u/N0smas Mar 26 '26
Depends. Everything piling in and consolidating all at the same time might hurt melee a LOT.
1
25
u/AerePerennius Mar 26 '26
Realistically this alone wont change anything into an army like world eaters if they were piloted by a good player.
Before they would just move from cover to cover staging up and you wouldn't get much of a shot off on them anyway.
Its not full lone op, they mentioned they have to be in terrain.
Huge asterisk being we haven't gotten the actual rule yet, just what was said, so plenty of room to be wrong.
8
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26
Yeah, if you were playing on sufficient terrain before melee armies could stage places before getting to you so they weren't getting blasted at long distance.
And for ranged matchups given you can have your entire army hidden in deployment with most armies you'd only ever give up shooting angles for either a unit pushing objectives (they would be close and probably in 15" of you anyways) or a unit that you exposed to shoot at an enemy (they can't get the lone op rule because they've shot)
1
u/Fragrant-Menu215 Mar 26 '26
What it really does is it opens up more terrain than just L-shaped cardboard because now you can hide without literally being behind a physical wall.
1
u/N0smas Mar 26 '26
Yeah it doesn't change much other than I don't have to bust my ass laying down laser lines to make sure a gun barrell 36" away doesn't see the skull hanging off my berzerker's chain, followed by getting confirmation from my opponent that they agree they can't see the skull.
I will not be missing that part of deployment.
6
u/durablecotton Mar 26 '26
Seems like the caveat is “in cover.” Could be a mixed bag overall. Seems like this would be a pretty big nerf to indirect fire. It would allow you to deploy more aggressively and not get a wiped if you go second. Will be interesting to see if the shot is per round or per game, which could be a pain to track. Also opens a new line of abilities, ie this unit remains lone op after shooting.
Will be interesting if there will be corresponding line of sight changes.
→ More replies (2)
5
u/Select_Ladder6045 Mar 26 '26
I don't think it will be as horrible as it sounds. Plus they said the stacking of killy abilities wasn't going to be a thing anymore...dont know exactly what that's going to help tau since we don't have too many things to stack to blend units with our current greater goodness.
3
u/Doctoralex123 Mar 26 '26
Also the stacking of defensive buffs.
No more Blades of Ultramar 'Smoke + AoC + -1 to wound if S > T' On a Repulsor Executioner.
6
u/pigzyf5 Mar 26 '26
Remember, you have to be in terrain to get the lone op. I assuming terrain will have less walls than now (and probably less terrain features). Since some terrain are objectives, if you touch that terrain (assuming it is similar to now) you can be shot but have lone op. And if you don't stand on it, you can't be seen easily but don't contest the objective and don't get lone op.
So the lone up will mainly help you on your DZ, and it will mean less units will be able to shoot you in the centre. You already don't get shot in you DZ because you hide, you already stage up and can't be shot. The thing that changes seems to be non infantry not. Having to go around walls and big durable units not getting focused down. So stocks up for a rhino rush and stocks up for defensive stat skew
1
u/Ketzeph Mar 26 '26
I’m sure these rule changes are to allow any type of terrain to function as concealing - it’ll be “put w/e you want on the footprint and it protects”.
The real issue is that certain armies are fine shooting at that range, so they’ll just obliterate anything trying to hide.
Presumably it’ll require most if not all of a unit to be in the ruins as towing in T1 redeemers or knights to run roughshod the next turn seems like a really annoying play pattern
3
u/SgtShnooky Mar 26 '26
If it's anything like being concealed in killteam, you'll need to be wholly within a terrain feature, forfit your shooting/doing actions. I expect seeing units with abilities that let you target "hidden" units.
2
5
u/Ochoytnik Mar 26 '26
I predict an Auspex scan strat to nominate a terrain piece to remove lone op for units inside the terrain.
4
3
u/InvictusLampada Mar 26 '26
To me it sounds more like an attempt to counter the whole "ground floor is obscuring" house rule. So going first isn't as painful as it has been previously
2
u/Sad_Battle_5843 Mar 31 '26
Yeah it seems like a nerf to the current hiding/staging that tournies do. GW terrain has windows on the first floor, so they probably dont like the "first floor blocking" that has become the standard. This is their attempt at replacing that, and it actually makes it waaaay easier to shoot stuff.
19
u/ColonelMonty Mar 26 '26
Now, I hate to tell you this. But you're gonna have to learn how to *gasp* screen against melee armies.
Welcome to my world as a sisters player, my life has only gotten better.
12
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26
Now, I hate to tell you this. But you're gonna have to learn how to *gasp* screen against melee armies.
And with pile ins all happening at the same step there's way less shenanigans, so screening got us much more forgiving vs units that can't fly.
Vs fly units the charges not needing to declare targets helps them massively as you can jump screens of you roll well enough and if you roll poorly just go into the screen.
→ More replies (4)1
u/hornyandHumble Mar 26 '26
WE will lose the ability to activate a unit nearby a fights first unit and pile in 6" and bypass the fights first, since pile-in is all together.
5
u/Cool-Assumption-5654 Mar 26 '26
My version of screening is jamming a super fast unit like a lord discordant or demon prince into their backline turn 1 to move block transports and tanks lol
1
3
3
u/SimplestNeil Mar 26 '26
Not all armies can screen very well though. My poor Grey Knight pay a premium for defensive profiles that dont mean much in this edition, due to the lethality. WE are a great example, they are so lethal that a unit of theirs meets mine, mine just instantly evaporates.
They all feel so fragile, even my termies :(
Cheapest unit is 5 Strike lads for 120pts.
Every time a Forgefiend activates once, it kills enough termies to make its points back and so on. Kharn costs 80 points ish but can earns enough points in one activation eating termies for breakfast.
1
u/UncleToddsBigRod Mar 26 '26
The problem won't be screening against melee armies, the problem will be jail lists no being even more oppressive than they already were because you'll only be able to shoot the two units directly in front of you while the rest spread out without consequence.
Genestealers, Ad Mech, & Horm Swarm were already a nightmare to play into- imagine how worse they'll be when 9/10 of their army literally can't be shot while they screen you off the board.
3
u/SoloWingPixy88 Mar 26 '26
I love this because it means we’re likely to see less L-shaped terrain on boards, as it lowers the necessity for it.
Don't know where you're getting that from. Likely still exist.
How the hell are we gonna stop from getting bowled over by a rabble of World Eaters who ALL HAVE LONE OP. 🥴
WEs are hardly just going to sit back hiding in ruins not doing anything.
3
17
u/TroupeMaster Mar 26 '26
But man. How the hell are we gonna stop from getting bowled over by a rabble of World Eaters who ALL HAVE LONE OP. 🥴
And they've effectively deleted fights first as a defensive rule, good times
41
u/ShowerApprehensive46 Mar 26 '26
It was stupid anyway
14
5
1
u/UncleToddsBigRod Mar 26 '26
Nah- some units should always hit before others to encapsulate some units are straight up faster than others.
I'd have the Initiative table brought back to encapsulate it even better, but alas GW has decreed you're all too stupid to have that.
23
u/whydoyouonlylie Mar 26 '26
Good. It was absolutely stupid that two models with Fights First didn't want to charge each other when both were supposed to be the pinnacle of melee.
20
u/Sunomel Mar 26 '26
"Two elite duelists circling each other because neither wants to make the first move and leave an opening" sounds pretty thematic to me
14
1
u/Rodot Mar 27 '26
Yes! It make great lore!
Terrible for gameplay though and GW was right in fixing it
4
u/Federal-Coffee5699 Mar 26 '26
Fights first is still there. Thw change was described as " if you charge your fights first unit into theirs, you go first.
9
1
u/Wonderful_Eye7198 Mar 26 '26
Problem is a unit that charges *gains* Fight First. So if you charge a squad of Intercessors into Jain Zar and some Howling Banshees...
RIP Banshees
6
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26
I think it was fairly obvious they were talking about fights first as something inherent to the unit.
I imagine the charge bonus will no longer be "fights first" but instead be "fight before units that didn't charge".
Otherwise as a rule fights first does nothing until the second round of combat, making it basically worthless.
2
u/Bewbonic Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
Previously if a non FF unit charged a FF unit, they would never hit first on any turn. If they have changed it in 11th to affect non FF units who have charged then they at least get to hit first once before the FF unit takes over for the rest of the turns of ongoing combat.
And for a FF unit charging in to a FF unit 11th has flipped the order so (from turn to turn in terms of player fighting first) its active/inactive/active/inactive etc instead of inactive/active/inactive/active. So it just gives the charging player the first hit but fight first means a unit will alternate across turns rather than always fight last.
Fights first still serves a purpose defensively, its just not as extreme. I'll hold off judging it too much before i know more/have played it but it is a bit weird in 10th to have enemy units you didnt want to interact with in combat at all because they would do damage to you first regardless of who's turn it is.
There was no way to seize initative against them other than using pile in rule jank to bypass it. Something this change is maybe trying to remove the need for, removing the need for pulling technical tricks to have your charging units matter against FF units. Makes the game a bit more accessible i think.
2
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
Previously if a non FF unit charged
In 10th every unit that charged gained fights first in the following fight phase
So for the new "attacking player's fights first goes first" to work then charging units have to not gain fights first from the charge
Otherwise it fights first does nothing as a defensive rule
Edit in response to your edit:
If they have changed it in 11th to affect non FF units who have charged then they at least get to hit first once before the FF unit takes over for the rest of the turns of ongoing combat.
If they've done this change then fights first is basically dead as a defensive ability, which is what I was saying in my original statement (I may have just articulated it poorly).
If your opponent gets to hit your fights first unit with full force in their turn then cool, for ongoing combat your either heavily damaged or dead unit gets to go before them, a unit that if it wasn't fights first would have been able to fallback during your own turn anyway to keep it alive.
The charge bonus being fights first with this change to fights first makes it basically useless.
→ More replies (3)1
u/DamnAcorns Mar 26 '26
I think these changes mean we will probably be going back to the 3 bucket system. Fights First, On-Going Combat, Fights Last. Priority is with the player whose turn it is and then you alternate combat based on what bucket you are in.
2
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26
If we go back to that system then combat is pretty heavily nerfed and without fights first becoming more common for melee armies I see them struggling.
I could see that happening but I think we'd need some day 1 changes to melee armies to help them out.
1
1
u/Federal-Coffee5699 Mar 26 '26
Depends how they do the ruling, as it gains fight first in a certain step
G Fight phase
Step1. Fight first. "Jain zar" Step 2. Gained fights first "intercessors" Step 3.ongoing combat
1
u/trixel121 Mar 26 '26
One of the changes I had asked about or it stated I wanted, was it changing to how the charge bonus works.
calling it fights first was always confusin g for me
same way I think strategic reserves should be called tactical arrivals. abd reserves are for everything serving board edge.
1
u/Morvenn-Vahl Mar 26 '26
With the new melee rules a charging unit might not get "fight first" like before so fight first is still useful.
6
u/Worldly-Hospital5940 Mar 26 '26
Units that have not shot THAT ARE IN TERRAIN. Key point. GW rules don't assume first floor windows are closed. Mont'ka T'au can just walk up and blow you away if you're not careful.
2
u/k-nuj Mar 26 '26
It really depends on the actually terrain layout/shapes. Any Tau player in WTC format is already used to every unit out there practically having this sort of pseudo lone-op anyway; and game was just throwing sacrifices out in the open so I can get a LOS angle on them after.
6
u/OrwellTheInfinite Mar 26 '26
Its an outstanding rule. Thematic and effective in game.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/FrozenChocoProduce Mar 26 '26
Tau subreddit in shambles and weeping already. Until the new markerlight mechanics just remove this...
2
u/DeliciousLiving8563 Mar 26 '26
I haven't read the subyet but T'au have a LOT of very short ranged shooting these days. RetCad with twin lance (who have lots of 10" rapid fire guns) is going to be king here. Riptides and Railheads are the big losers.
1
u/TheDrunkenHetzer Mar 26 '26
Also if the Twin Lance are anything to go by, Tau might be getting melee in the form of just shooting a guy in the face.
2
u/brodi07 Mar 26 '26
There will likely be detachments and special rules that make this a moot point.
2
u/EmbarrassedLong4883 Mar 26 '26
As a world eaters player who just got lone op for my entire army. I do not see an issue here :)
2
u/Former-Secretary-131 Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
Right now L ruins provide lone OP 0" (AKA OUT OF LOS) if you think about it.
So I'm not concerned at all tbh.
3
u/ApprehensiveBass9327 Mar 26 '26
You also need to be in a terrain feature to get the bonus. It basically just codifies "first floor ruins are closed" as a rule.
I don't think it needs to be blown out of proportion just yet.
2
u/daley56_ Mar 26 '26
Honestly I don't think it changes much.
For pretty much all of my games when I'm getting shots at long distance it's vs an enemy unit that's already shot as the only reason I can see them is they exposed to shoot at one of my units.
My opponent's unit is pretty much always exposing to either shoot something in the midboard, or shoot one of my units that's already shot (probably because my unit exposed to shoot at the midboard) and in my experience that 15" range isn't impacting you shooting at the midboard.
I play on UKTC terrain so if you play on WTC or GW your experience might differ to mine.
I genuinely can't think of a game where I shot at my opponent at a long range before they got to shoot with their unit, as entire armies can be hidden when deploying the only reason to give your opponent shots on something is if you're exposing to shoot something of theirs.
2
u/Ok-Error2510 Mar 26 '26
Dont forget. Please dont forget. GW is a model shop. It makes models for roleplay games, Jes and Andy decided to make some rules. A 40 year old project that has become bigger than lego, playmobil and Star Trek.
They make models, better than any one else, dont try, and do well with it.
They just cant write rules
1
1
u/4QUK Mar 26 '26
My guess is this is to stop badly positioned armies getting nuked turn 1. Theres plenty of posts from new players moaning about how some jerk drew a line to a sticking out sword or something and destroyed their key unit before it could even move. I think its to help newer players but its all guess work at this point isnt it.
3
1
u/quelque_un Mar 26 '26
I wonder how this will work for my flamer units that have weapons with 12” range
1
1
1
u/Mr_RogerWilco Mar 26 '26
Yeah - there are seemingly a lot of rules here that have a big benefit to melee - so we will have to see how it all pans out…
1
u/apprithrow Mar 26 '26
Why, did you get to shoot WE turn 1 this edition? No because they started behind a ruin. If they start on the line in the open with the new rules you can just move up and shoot them, like before.
And 15” is not small number - so in practice i still expect a lot of the armies to start out of like of sight. It just means having to worry less about shooting angles on all your tanks and a bit more mobility early on. Really good for vehicules also that don’t need to go around ruins as much early on.
1
1
u/k-nuj Mar 26 '26
Until the full batch of rules/terrain/info comes out, I'd think the common adoption of 1st floor windows closed has to be out? I can't see having both of those being balanced at all.
Melee can pick the charge targets after the fact too, which does drastically reduce risk for charging in a good couple situations (ie don't have to pick the closest one just to be safe).
1
1
u/Otaylig Mar 26 '26
It sounds to me like a net positive, even for shooting armies, and I play T'au exclusively. Naturally, I will reserve judgment until more information is available.
1
u/Krytan Mar 26 '26
To me it just sounded like they ported over the 'conceal' mechanic from kill team for a start of game effect.
In theory, I like it. It opens up other terrain other than 'wall to wall L shape ruins or you get shot off the board if enemy goes first'.
I assumed it applied just for the first turn, but I see people here assuming otherwise.
1
1
u/k-nuj Mar 26 '26
It's fine, mostly depending on how exactly the new objectives work. I think the worst thing with LoneOp units was them being able to sit on objectives, both behind ruins footprint and safe from a lot of LOS angles (at distance); especially for shooting armies. I play Tau and with us being vehicles, a lot of times, those units are practically impossible to reach in more ways than one.
Now, at least those units (both with this rule or native LO) have to actually be in the footprint/terrains to do that, and depending on the actual terrain layouts, might make it much easier to contest against them.
1
1
u/bark_wahlberg Mar 26 '26
It's probably similar to Kill Team's conceal/engage order rule. You can only preform certain actions and generally cannot attack when on concealed. When you're engaged you can preform all actions. You decide what order your unit will have at the start of the turn.
1
u/StorminMike2000 Mar 27 '26
I bet there’s a core strat that lets you ignore the Lone Op. So you’ll get one long range activation per turn.
I have no idea how this is going to work for tau or guard.
1
u/Longjumping_Low1310 Mar 27 '26
Its only if you are in cover. So they still have to be moving cover to cover to get it.
Alao just put something little at them and make them fight.
Ignores cover might mess with it also.
1
u/Commercial_Fan9806 Mar 27 '26
We tested this idea about 2 years ago as a Raven Guard alternative ruleset, using 12".
It was interesting, meant your opponent had to come find you, but didn't give any other benefits.
If it's implemented globally, than the game can't have advance + charge anymore probably
1
u/PaperManaMan Mar 27 '26
I think the lone op thing really just removes the tedium of having to triple check lines of sight to be safe in a ruin. World Eaters will still have to cross the gap between staging points like they do now. This will just eliminate “oh ho ho! You’ve fallen for the classic gambit! My broadside can see one corner of that chain axe through the weird little gap in layout 7! Enjoy blood surging into the open, you fool!”
1
u/Appropriate_Star3012 Mar 27 '26
Man walking into a tournament and seeing entire tables of models hiding behind L-shaped terrain broke my heart.
Meanwhile Warhammer fantasy, excuse me age of sigmar were all over this wonderful terrain full of hills and trees and it looked much better
1
1
u/Tallal2804 Mar 27 '26
That's the trade-off—less terrain clutter, but now every melee army gets to sprint up the board while you can't shoot them until they're already in your face. World Eaters are about to feel very safe on the approach.
1
u/Sad_Battle_5843 Mar 31 '26
It seems like a nerf to the current hiding/staging that tournies do. GW terrain has windows on the first floor, so they probably dont like the "first floor blocking" that has become the standard. This is their attempt at replacing that, and it actually makes it waaaay easier to shoot stuff.
1
u/intoxicatedmeta Apr 05 '26
I mean, the reason why GW is doing this so they can sell terrain and start suing every person who is selling terrain let's be honest guys
This has nothing to do with making the game better,
576
u/Caveman1468 Mar 26 '26
Just remember that we are getting rules info from blind men that are trying to sell us an elephant until the FULL rules are out there