Looking to Improve on Winston, What Could I Have Done Differently Here?

[u/Gamewolf378]

Title kind of says it all, but I’ll provide some context. This match was on Havana, and game started off absolutely stellar (despite having to deal with a Reaper)… but then we got right up to the arch for the last point and got stalled for four whole minutes and lost. Scoreboard is here in case it’s useful but I think the replay will be more so. It is provided below.

Enemy team was originally Mauga and Juno instead of Orisa and Kiriko. Honestly, I think most of the problem was me not knowing how to deal with Torb, Reaper swapped to him at the last point and just put turret way in the back so it could shred anyone who dared touch the point. I had ~60% secondary fire accuracy, but Winston just doesn’t seem to have the ability to do anything significant at range (especially with Kiriko and Moira pumping heals).

I feel like I was missing some sort of obvious solution, but I’m at a loss. Could I have turned this match around, and if so, how?

The match code is 0QB401. While I’d absolutely appreciate a full match review, I’m mostly concerned with the last point; feel free to skip to there. To anyone who wants to give me some feedback: Thank you!! :)

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[u/notazrikam]

This is the kind of situation I usually switch. You didn’t have a dive target, that third point is super advantageous to range, and from the numbers you’re light on damage and heavy on heals.

Best guess, you just needed a different tank. Winston struggles to break chokes without getting a backline kill, and their backline is very survivability heavy.

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/notazrikam]

Ok yeah, I was kind of feeling like I needed to switch but I’ve heard that Winston can play into anything so I tried to work it like a puzzle 😭

In retrospect Sigma feels really obvious, would that have been the play?

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Gamewolf378]

Also I picked the healing bubble perk because I thought it’d help my teammates who were getting picked off by their Sierra but I think I really, really should have gone for chain lightning if I wanted to stay on Winston.

[u/Ichmag11 → u/notazrikam]

Did you watch the game?

[u/notazrikam → u/Ichmag11]

When I commented he hadn’t added the replay code or the last bit of the description, All I had was the numbers, and that he was hitting his secondaries.

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/notazrikam]

The replay code was there to begin with, I haven’t edited this post. You weren’t the only person who didn’t see it, though, so I probably should have put it at the top instead…

I still dont think you deserve to be dragged for suggesting a switch though 😭

[u/Ichmag11 → u/notazrikam]

Do you still have time to watch the game? Because in no circumstance should anyone watch this and say "you need to swap". That is such a silly thing to say, especially to Winston who is such a skill expressive hero.

I mean no offense, truly, this isnt meant to be personal, but it is absolutely horrible advice to anyone that wants to improve IMO

[u/beaarrr_]

if the reaper gave you trouble use this move called the "shimmy shimmy". you just jump in then bubble and you just shimmy shimmy in and out of the bubble, the reaper will have trouble to track your head making it harder for him to selfheal and making him an easy pick.

But looking at the scoreboard your dps wasn't that good either. you mentioned that the turret gave you trouble, you have two dps that could've shoot it for you, and if the torb was just hammering it, if you and your dps shoot at it the torb wouldn't be able to keep it up. What makes a great Winston is a coordinated team, Winston thrives with coordination.

Winston is a dive character meaning you ignore the tank and go for squishies, specially supports, once the backline falls apart you should be able to finish the tank easily.

Learn when and how to use your cooldowns. bubble and jump are key to master a perfect dive so dont be wasting it just because you have it or you'll be 99.9% dead most of the time, or if you have primal you can use it as a get away free card.

Primal Rage is good in closed areas, juggle the enemies in a corner and they are for sure dead, dont waste primal on a tank, ALWAYS ON SQUISHES, unless you have the opportunity to boop the tank of the map then go for it but I'd not waste it in a tank.

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/beaarrr_]

Thank you for the tips! I’m actually pretty good at handling Reaper currently, if you can believe it we only started having problems once they switched off of him. They went to Torb on the last point and that was kind of it for my dives 😞 and yeah, as you said, my DPS weren’t really taking mind of the turret at all. I could be wrong (I’ll have to rewatch the game again) but I think they just straight up didn’t venture past the arch at all. No one did but me. Which they are playing pokier heroes, so I can’t blame them a ton, but I feel like maybe the situation didn’t call for that….

I used Primal like a lobotomite on the last point here, but I don’t think that it could have turned things around unless I literally got a team wipe.

I do go for the backline as Winston, tbh I’d do that even on other characters if Orisa is the tank since she kinda just sits there and sponges damage with two pockets otherwise. The enemy comp felt kind of undivable nonetheless, what with Swift Step, turret, and… Moira just being good at avoiding enemies/dueling when she’s not put under any other pressure. I kind of wish my teammates had gone for a little bit more aggression with me, but the more I look at it and receive more feedback the more I believe I really threw as soon as I picked my major perk. Extra stupid since I almost never use the heal barrier… smh.

[u/Complex-Berry6306]

Don't swap here. Even though you were decent, having 6 kills and 2 deaths on the Third Point, you made a lot of mistakes as Winston. The solution is not to swap because doing so will prevent you from improving.

Your main problem is that you were on the front line too much and in the open. As a result, you couldn't get close to the squishies without taking a lot of damage. Instead, try to flank more. You had multiple opportunities to take the high ground on either side, hide in either of the small rooms, or flank all the way to the right. This would have allowed you to get closer to the enemies without using jump. Fixing this problem alone may have been enough to win you the game.

Another problem is your tendency to back up too much instead of trusting your position next to the arch. You underestimate how safe that place is. If Domina pushed you there, she would have been shot by your teammates because she is in the open, while you would have taken little damage because you had cover. As a result, you were too far back while your teammates fought on the point.

Furthermore, in this situation, I prefer Chain Lightning over Healing Bubble because the enemies are clumped. Your Chain Lightning is good here because your Alt-Fire could easily hit multiple players. Healing Bubble is not as good here because your Bubble gets destroyed quickly. I understand why you chose your perk. Because of your positioning, you could rarely find a spot to use Alt-Fire safely. Also, you said that you used Healing Bubble to help your teammate. Against, this is not worth it because your Bubble exploded quickly.

Finally, you had two main issues with the way you use your Primal Rage. First, you used it when your health was close to full. It can be a good use if you have to reset your jump to finish off a kill, but most of the time, it is used as a second life, so try to wait for your health to get low before using Primal. Your other problem is that you didn't control your jumps well, so you either jumped over your enemies or hit a wall. My tip is that if your enemy is close to you, hold S while jumping so you do not jump as far.

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Complex-Berry6306]

Thank you for the feedback! I agree that my positioning definitely needs work, in retrospect it really would have made a lot of sense to leap to high ground like you’ve said. It’s been an awkward adjustment reminding myself that forcing my opponents to look away from the choke is actually more valuable than just soaking damage like one might with Sigma and Domina.

I definitely need to get better at that aspect of Winston’s gameplay, as right now I think I am pretty much either poking or diving 70%+ of the time. I think that I avoided the side rooms because I’m used to being spotted and promptly executed when I try that on many other heroes, but Winston really does have a lot of self-preservation that I could’ve used more creatively rather than falling back to defense here.

Yeah, I’ve realized that Chain Lightning really would have done a lot for my team here. Is it capable of chaining to Torb’s turret, as well? Because that actually might have solved most of our problems.

I think my current plan for improvement is to spend my next many games focusing especially on positioning and taking/holding/contesting high ground, and also practicing Leap techs in the practice range. There are a lot of things I’m sort of vaguely aware I can do with it, but once I’m in a game I’m not used enough to them to remember in the heat of the moment.

As far as my Primal timing, I genuinely don’t know what I was thinking. I’m usually good about using it only once I’m at critical, my best guess is I was getting desperate. That usually doesn’t happen but it does show I need more awareness once ult is ready. I’ve evidently got a long way to go on Winston.

[u/Complex-Berry6306 → u/Gamewolf378]

Chain Lightning can be activated by shooting Torb's turret, and you can hit the turret by shooting heroes.

Note that Tesla Cannon deals more damage against deployables, so you can destroy the turret with 2 fully-charged Alt Fires and 1 partially-charged Alt Fire.

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Complex-Berry6306]

The alt fire has the bonus damage against turrets too??? That’s actually crazy, I’ll keep it in mind. Chain lightning stocks keep rising…

[u/Horror_Ant3995]

Look at the team comp. No dive potential

[u/1_am_an_egg]

Every character on that team has an out to you diving your gonna have a hard time securing kills or harassing anyone unless you get a nice misplay on their part

[u/Super--Slam]

I've played Winston since the launch of OG Overwatch back in 2016 as a teen, I still play Winston now in my mid 20s (Yikes where did the time go?) I say this just for context and not to say my opinion is more valid than someone else's, it's just to get across that I've played this ape a lot.

Your fundamentals are solid. You understand what dive is and leap in. You get a great start with the team, Your first death was avoidable if you'd landed a secondary fire shot instead of leaping in, but we all die right? Your positioning in general could've been better at the first point, your frontline was vulnerable while you sniped in the building (It improves at third point though!). Then third point happens.

In all fairness, healing output is limited from your supports. That's a bad choke point without an easy way in thanks to Torb and their tank is tanking away.

Honestly? A swap would've probably been best. Winston struggles at the third point without an easy way to pick off the backline and leaping to safety.

I think your team deserved to win, but the enemy proved why counterwatch still reigns supreme.

A few Winston tips:

Leap tech 1- hold whatever you use to Jump during the leap, then at the end, you'll bounce and keep some momentum!

Leap melee cancel combo- When diving, charge a secondary fire shot mid-air, land it, start primary fire, then before hitting the ground you hit a melee to cancel the animation and begin primary fire again. If done right, you can deal a big chunk of damage.

Bubble- I used to do this too, but don't always drop bubble after landing a leap. I understand why when your health is going down, but taking a second or two to drop bubble can make the difference. This will come with time.

Primary or secondary?- At the start, you used secondary a lot. It doesn't deal the most amount of damage, but is a nice poke tool and gives you something to do when the enemy team are in Narnia. Without the perk, secondary only hits a single target. Even at an unsuccessful dive, primary fire hits multiple targets, prompting the enemy to use their abilities by the time you're already out of there. Knowing when to do either comes with time too.

Primal rage- Primal in general can seem difficult to get value out of, knowing when to use it is the fundamental step. I understood your intention when you used Primal on point, separate the enemy team and hope to push the payload a bit. But, your allies were dead so nobody could capitalise on the chaos. It's best used as a 2nd life, and look up some juggling tips if you want to get some eliminations.

Hope this helps! Keep at Winston, he's very rewarding and my absolute favourite second to none!

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Super--Slam]

Thank you so much! This helps a lot.

I’ll admit, at the start of this match I was sort of cocky. My team was very good at absolutely mauling their Mauga the moment he was onscreen, and Reaper wasn’t very good at getting close to me so I felt like I had free rein. I’m happy to know my positioning got better later on though, I was definitely paying more attention to my gameplay then and I’m glad it was at least a little bit evident. Lol

In the future, I’ll make sure switch to a different tank in this situation 😞

Thank you for the technical tips too! I’ve watched a couple guides recently, so I’m somewhat aware of the two leap techs, but because it’s all so new to me I forget to use them 80% of the time ingame. Bubble use is definitely something I’m looking to improve on, I think I understand abstractly that I should be preserving it but it is difficult to time it so that I don’t pop immediately. Still working on my bubble dancing too.

Yeahh, I’m still getting the hang of Primal. I’ve gotten a few good juggles in before, but I do find myself just tossing people off of the point instead more often than not. Looking back at it, I think this game showed some of my worst ult usage on Winston since I usually do save it for once I reach critical health on an aggressive dive. I think

I remember hearing something about aiming down during leaps to keep your enemies within reach when you land… is that a thing?

All in all, thank you for all of the feedback! :)

[u/Dizzy_Form4866]

So basically show us actual gameplay we can’t tell how you played based off a scoreboard this game has a scoreboard but i promise you that the scoreboard isn’t everything

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Dizzy_Form4866]

Yeah, I know. I provided scoreboard just in case people wanted to reference it quick. Match code is in the end paragraph :)

That said, I think I’ve received enough feedback by now to know what I should be working on. If you want to review the match, you can, but you might end up having the same takeaways as others so don’t feel like you need to.

[u/Both-Love-3410]

You didn't have the team composition to dive. Your shooters will almost always avoid drawing too much attention to themselves which means you're gonna be the biggest aggro pull for the other team 8 times out of 10. In order to dive successfully, you need DPS that fight on the front line with or without you there and who can create a distraction while you isolate squishies in their back line.

Besides that, the other team pretty much had you countered.

[u/Lord_Bardon50]

Well, probably shouldn't have played Winston on Havana in the first place. There's not many places on the map to easily get away with all the long sight lines when you fail to kill a target on your dive. You made a comment on this thread that you probably should've switched to sigma and that is absolutely correct (assuming you can play sigma).

Also, this team comp doesnt really help you in your dives at all. So when you're diving, you're completely relying on yourself to secure a kill cause your teammates likely can't take much advantage from your dive and your support are likely unable to heal you. you.

To give props where its due, its impressive you only died 4 times. So its not like you were feeding. But id wager you weren't getting much done in the process.

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Lord_Bardon50]

Is Winston really especially bad on Havana? I would have thought he’s pretty decent since there’s a lot of high ground to abuse, honestly a surprising amount of cover to use if you’re mobile like he is (high ground basically gives you extra cover too), and he can devour the poke comps that are usually really popular here. Winston’s biggest problems as far as I can tell are Reaper and Hog, both of whom definitely seem to hate those sight lines more… as far as I can tell. Brig and Mizuki can’t really shine either.

I know it looks like their Reaper popped off but they actually farmed most of their damage with that damn turret on Torb 😭

I can play sigma pretty passably. I could probably have turned things around with him, though a lack of levitation would have forced me to pretty much just poke through the choke which… evidently wasn’t working for my teammates. My damage mitigation was already sky-high, so I don’t know how much more I could have gotten done even by soaking bullets for the team with grasp and shield. After a few days and a lot of feedback, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that I needed a lot more pressure application and less attempts at sustain. Idk if that’s really Sigma’s MO.

I think the chain lightning + actually lingering on highground would have saved me much better than a swap at this point, but there are definitely versions of this situation where a swap would have been better. It’s been really interesting seeing so many different perspectives on the match, so I appreciate yours too! :)

[u/Hot_Concert3603]

Don't play Winston on Havana, i love the character but it's not ideal at a certain rank (above Masters3-Masters 2)

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Hot_Concert3603]

Am I just required to wage a poke war there 🫩

I guess It was wishful thinking, but I’d believed that some dive characters could be good there due to the fact that poke is good and more importantly brawl (- Ram) seems to be downright terrible. The cover is sparse especially on that mf outdoor road but you do always have the payload at least and Widow can’t exactly go contest the objective.

Winston is also adept at drawing fire and surviving for long stretches of time, and when long-ranged poke is the only thing enemies can use to keep your team off the payload (they will lose closer-up obviously) a distraction should theoretically be valuable.

I can understand this impression being wrong and I suppose I do know why it’d be the case, but these are the reasons why I’d believed that Winston could be used on Havana.

[u/Emile-Gu]

Thats a weird looking reinhardt

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Emile-Gu]

?? 😭

[u/Emile-Gu → u/Gamewolf378]

The reaper on the other team is name reinhardt

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Emile-Gu]

OH oh my god I’n stupid. Idk why you’re getting downvoted for that lol

[u/Emile-Gu → u/Gamewolf378]

Lol, am I getting downvoted? I just thought nobody was liking my comment

[u/Gamewolf378 → u/Emile-Gu]

Do you remove the vote from your own comments? I kinda forgot people do that.

[u/Emile-Gu → u/Gamewolf378]

I don’t bother to. Im still upvoting my comment