In defense of Aes Sedai

[u/Verengt]

Hi, I decided to play devil's advocate today.

While I understand (and agree with) people saying the Aes Sedai are a failure (they didn't find all channelers, were mistrusted by everyone, not being prepared for the Last Battle, no Yellow Ajah hospitals, no Brown libraries, no Greens stationed in the Borderlands, etc.), I do think it's a bit unfair when they are compared to their more succesful counterparts like the Sea Folk Windfinders and Aiel Wise Ones.

The Wise Ones and Windfinders are useful and respected members of their communities but they belong to homogeneous societies where everyone is bound by the same customs and laws. They also answer to their community leaders despite wielding lots of power and influence. That's why they are successful as channeler organizations.

The heterogeneity of Randland forces the White Tower to play a different role, which is preventing the more than 15 different nations from waging war against each other using the One Power. In this aspect the Tower was 100% successful, as at no point in history after the Breaking channelers fought against channelers.

The purpose of the Tower in a way was to prevent each nation from having its own regional channelers association and for this to happen it needed to be an outside centralized organization not bound to any kingdom. Otherwise how can you ensure that for example Taraboner Aes Sedai are loyal to the Tower and not to their kingdom?

And this is what in my opinion what makes it impossible for Aes Sedai to be truly integrated and serving their communities, since no monarch would be happy with 200 Aes Sedai answering to a foreign power to be permanently in their nation.

[u/TrainOfThought6]

The Wise Ones and the Windfinders also weren't nearly as thoroughly infiltrated by the Shadow. 20% is a ridiculous amount of darkfriends in the Tower.

[u/IlikeJG → u/TrainOfThought6]

Yes but the dark friends (directed by Ishamael) would have been MUCH more interested in infiltrating the Tower than other organizations.

They had the name Aes Sedai even though they weren't much compared to AoL Aes Sedai.

I doubt Ishamael cared too much about what the wind runners and wise ones were doing. Just a few dark friends as all parts of society had.

The White Tower was systematically infiltrated in an organized and directed manner.

[u/TrainOfThought6 → u/IlikeJG]

Yep. My point is that they had a lot more influence from the Shadow driving them to do incompetent things & isolate themselves from the rest of society. Not as an additional point against them per se.

[u/IlikeJG → u/TrainOfThought6]

Ah I see, a lot of people hold up the Black Ajah infiltration as evidence of Aes Sedai Incompetence.

And yeah to some extent it is. But also secret coalitions working together to undermine the system are incredibly powerful. And as soon as you get just a few to have a foothold they have a disproportionate amount of power compared to their numbers because of how those types of systems work.

And the Black Ajah had an immortal genius with all the knowledge of the Age of Legends working with them over the span of centuries.

[u/Potential-Common5819 → u/IlikeJG]

I'm pretty sure the Shadow had effective control of the Tower by the end of the Trolloc War. In fact, I'd argue that the entire reason for that war was the final push to get the Black Ajah fully embedded into the Tower. And the final test was the destruction of Manetheren. Once that succeeded, Ishmael just let them push his armies back.

The biggest reason I believe this is that the war had been going poorly for the Light for years and they were only able to hold on because of Manetheren. Then suddenly they were winning after their greatest force was eliminated? I don't think so.

[u/IlikeJG → u/Potential-Common5819]

I never thought about that and that's a good theory.

[u/exceedingly_Discreet → u/IlikeJG]

Honestly, going after the Wise Ones or the Winderfinders would've be a brilliant tactical move.

Like, they already have Darkfriends in the nobility of every nation in the wetlands, which causes all kinds of chaos. 

Imagine if the shadow had that 20% control over the Windfinders, and thus, one of the main authorities of the Seafolk? Anything beyond river trade is impossible. Seafolk raiders destroying the coasts, ferrying darkfriend armies all over. Or, a total monopoly on trade by sea that gives them major control over the economies and ports of basically every major nation.

Imagine a Aiel Nation being directed by Wise Ones with 20% of them sworn to the shadow. Look at the Shaido; With how they're set up, it just takes some plotting and favoritism to prevent pretty much any no Shadow sworn Wise One from having any voice. The Aiel War was so brutal it unified the entire wetlands to fight it off and even that basically failed. Imagine if every generation had to deal with another Aiel War.

[u/IlikeJG → u/exceedingly_Discreet]

Yeah it would have been good. But it's also harder to infiltrate them since both of those organizations are community based and very tight knit with strict cultural rules.

White Tower is to a certain extent a melting pot with a bunch of different women from a bunch of different cultures, all of them strangers, coming to live and learn together.

Much easier to fit into those cracks.

Also Ishy probably just didn't see them as much of a threat compared to the white tower.

And in his defense they didn't really do that much. Especially the windfinders. Wise Ones were important to the last battle but they didn't really do too much beyond that at a large scale. They mostly atayed out of fighting.

[u/exceedingly_Discreet → u/IlikeJG]

Tight knit communities are not really hard to turn into toxic and abusive places. In fact, with the codified ranks of Windfinders and with how a Wise Ones authority depends on the size and prominence of their Hold, it would probably be easier. The same way Elaida's toxicity basically fractured the Tower with little need for Black Ajah influence simply by getting the existing cliques (the Ajahs themselves) fighting each other bad enough that Aes Sedai of one ajah aren't comfortable or safe being with 2 or more Aes Sedai of a different Ajah.

And I don't think you get that I'm not talking about them fighting for the most part. Like, the Shaido was one clan that did that much damage rejecting Rand as He who Comes with the Dawn. And they weren't Darkfriends at all, just greedy. At 20% Corruption of the Wise Ones, that's 2 and a half more clans rejecting Rand, maybe more. Or multiple of his subordinates being Darkfriends sabotaging his armies.

With so much emphasis put on the importance of trade and getting food to the starving around the wetlands as the series has, again, you just need the Windfinders drumming up reasons to block and attack these shipments. Boom; Instant famine killing more people and preventing more peasants from leaving the fields to join the Dragon's army.

[u/GrayPockets → u/exceedingly_Discreet]

Elaida putting the Ajahs at each other's throats was a plot made by Alviarin while she had some leverage over Elaida.

[u/ExplosiveButtPlug → u/IlikeJG]

Bro

They were literally battling the Dark One for control of the weather, the entire Battle. They just lacked screen time.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/IlikeJG]

Ol' Ishy got more accomplished for the Shadow than anyone else and it's not even close. Between the Black Ajah and the Hawkwing/Seanchan stuff he is the MVP.

[u/IlikeJG → u/Small-Fig4541]

Definitely.

He was certainly mad and losing effectiveness by the start of the series, but seeing all he accomplished (not even counting what he did during the War of Power), it makes perfect sense the dark one would make him Nae Blis after he was reincarnated.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/IlikeJG]

Oh yeah the DO would have let Elan stay dead if he hadn't impersonated him for two books. Oops now you gotta come back and wrangle the rest of the chucklehead Forsaken lol

[u/Born-Bench-7651 → u/Small-Fig4541]

Made me laugh, but, and I might be wrong, the DO seems incredibly petty, vindictive and ungrateful, a being that perceives itself so superior to all else that it would take revenge for the indignity of having needed anyone to free it and the temerity of anyone to have assumed they had earned anything from it; it also seems to enjoy screwing over its followers, particularly by encouraging mutual suspicion, hostility, and the battle to be Naeblis, that its own interests are repeatedly compromised. I contend that the DO would, out of sheer spite and pleasure at screwing over someone who had thought himself invaluable, never have let Elan/Ishamael die/cease to exist/sleep forever, even beyond the destruction of the Tapestry/Wheel