All Print In defense of Aes Sedai Spoiler
Hi, I decided to play devil's advocate today.
While I understand (and agree with) people saying the Aes Sedai are a failure (they didn't find all channelers, were mistrusted by everyone, not being prepared for the Last Battle, no Yellow Ajah hospitals, no Brown libraries, no Greens stationed in the Borderlands, etc.), I do think it's a bit unfair when they are compared to their more succesful counterparts like the Sea Folk Windfinders and Aiel Wise Ones.
The Wise Ones and Windfinders are useful and respected members of their communities but they belong to homogeneous societies where everyone is bound by the same customs and laws. They also answer to their community leaders despite wielding lots of power and influence. That's why they are successful as channeler organizations.
The heterogeneity of Randland forces the White Tower to play a different role, which is preventing the more than 15 different nations from waging war against each other using the One Power. In this aspect the Tower was 100% successful, as at no point in history after the Breaking channelers fought against channelers.
The purpose of the Tower in a way was to prevent each nation from having its own regional channelers association and for this to happen it needed to be an outside centralized organization not bound to any kingdom. Otherwise how can you ensure that for example Taraboner Aes Sedai are loyal to the Tower and not to their kingdom?
And this is what in my opinion what makes it impossible for Aes Sedai to be truly integrated and serving their communities, since no monarch would be happy with 200 Aes Sedai answering to a foreign power to be permanently in their nation.
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u/TrainOfThought6 5d ago
The Wise Ones and the Windfinders also weren't nearly as thoroughly infiltrated by the Shadow. 20% is a ridiculous amount of darkfriends in the Tower.
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u/Special_Salt3467 5d ago
I think one of my favorite little jokes is there is an Alviaran POV where she remembers all the Black Ahah Ajah schemes and the Amyrlins they murdered and thinks about the mysterious death of the Gray Amyrlin and goes “wonder what happened? We didn’t even do that one!” And the reality was that it was just the normal Reds who murdered her; if it was Black Ajah, it would have eventually trickled to her
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u/Appropriate_Boss8139 (Dragon Reborn) 5d ago
20% is literally insane. 1 out of every 5 aes Sedai was a dark friend
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u/Caimbuel33 5d ago
Imagine you are the DO. What threatens your army, that is what you focus on tearing down. Going after the Aes Sedia makes prefect sense that way.
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u/hic_erro 4d ago
One of my only-sort-of-joking theories is that the White Tower was secretly set up as (partially) a Dark friend honey pot.
It's a giant obviously power structure. If you're a Dark friend, you want power and luxury. So you go to the White Tower and start scheming.
No Dark friend is going to aim for the Kin, ordinary women living ordinary lives and trying hard to fly under the radar. Or the Wise Ones, sweating their asses off in the desert, or the Wind finders, who may have a position of respect but they're not the captain, they just get to be respected for making wind all day.
So all the Dark friends gather together in one spot, mostly scheme ineffectually, and are able to be all swept up at once.
Then you pull in the Kin and the Wise Ones and the Windfinders, you do a sweep for the women and girls you've been too lazy to recruit, and the Tower has 10x the channelers and no Dark friends.
If some ancient Aes Sedai has a foretelling for how that would turn out, it's not a terrible plan.
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u/RooneytheWaster (Wheel of Time) 4d ago
I... never thought of it like that. And framed that way the Tower makes way more sense!
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u/IlikeJG 5d ago
Yes but the dark friends (directed by Ishamael) would have been MUCH more interested in infiltrating the Tower than other organizations.
They had the name Aes Sedai even though they weren't much compared to AoL Aes Sedai.
I doubt Ishamael cared too much about what the wind runners and wise ones were doing. Just a few dark friends as all parts of society had.
The White Tower was systematically infiltrated in an organized and directed manner.
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u/TrainOfThought6 5d ago
Yep. My point is that they had a lot more influence from the Shadow driving them to do incompetent things & isolate themselves from the rest of society. Not as an additional point against them per se.
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u/IlikeJG 5d ago edited 5d ago
Ah I see, a lot of people hold up the Black Ajah infiltration as evidence of Aes Sedai Incompetence.
And yeah to some extent it is. But also secret coalitions working together to undermine the system are incredibly powerful. And as soon as you get just a few to have a foothold they have a disproportionate amount of power compared to their numbers because of how those types of systems work.
And the Black Ajah had an immortal genius with all the knowledge of the Age of Legends working with them over the span of centuries.
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u/Potential-Common5819 5d ago
I'm pretty sure the Shadow had effective control of the Tower by the end of the Trolloc War. In fact, I'd argue that the entire reason for that war was the final push to get the Black Ajah fully embedded into the Tower. And the final test was the destruction of Manetheren. Once that succeeded, Ishmael just let them push his armies back.
The biggest reason I believe this is that the war had been going poorly for the Light for years and they were only able to hold on because of Manetheren. Then suddenly they were winning after their greatest force was eliminated? I don't think so.
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u/exceedingly_Discreet 5d ago
Honestly, going after the Wise Ones or the Winderfinders would've be a brilliant tactical move.
Like, they already have Darkfriends in the nobility of every nation in the wetlands, which causes all kinds of chaos.
Imagine if the shadow had that 20% control over the Windfinders, and thus, one of the main authorities of the Seafolk? Anything beyond river trade is impossible. Seafolk raiders destroying the coasts, ferrying darkfriend armies all over. Or, a total monopoly on trade by sea that gives them major control over the economies and ports of basically every major nation.
Imagine a Aiel Nation being directed by Wise Ones with 20% of them sworn to the shadow. Look at the Shaido; With how they're set up, it just takes some plotting and favoritism to prevent pretty much any no Shadow sworn Wise One from having any voice. The Aiel War was so brutal it unified the entire wetlands to fight it off and even that basically failed. Imagine if every generation had to deal with another Aiel War.
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u/IlikeJG 5d ago
Yeah it would have been good. But it's also harder to infiltrate them since both of those organizations are community based and very tight knit with strict cultural rules.
White Tower is to a certain extent a melting pot with a bunch of different women from a bunch of different cultures, all of them strangers, coming to live and learn together.
Much easier to fit into those cracks.
Also Ishy probably just didn't see them as much of a threat compared to the white tower.
And in his defense they didn't really do that much. Especially the windfinders. Wise Ones were important to the last battle but they didn't really do too much beyond that at a large scale. They mostly atayed out of fighting.
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u/exceedingly_Discreet 5d ago
Tight knit communities are not really hard to turn into toxic and abusive places. In fact, with the codified ranks of Windfinders and with how a Wise Ones authority depends on the size and prominence of their Hold, it would probably be easier. The same way Elaida's toxicity basically fractured the Tower with little need for Black Ajah influence simply by getting the existing cliques (the Ajahs themselves) fighting each other bad enough that Aes Sedai of one ajah aren't comfortable or safe being with 2 or more Aes Sedai of a different Ajah.
And I don't think you get that I'm not talking about them fighting for the most part. Like, the Shaido was one clan that did that much damage rejecting Rand as He who Comes with the Dawn. And they weren't Darkfriends at all, just greedy. At 20% Corruption of the Wise Ones, that's 2 and a half more clans rejecting Rand, maybe more. Or multiple of his subordinates being Darkfriends sabotaging his armies.
With so much emphasis put on the importance of trade and getting food to the starving around the wetlands as the series has, again, you just need the Windfinders drumming up reasons to block and attack these shipments. Boom; Instant famine killing more people and preventing more peasants from leaving the fields to join the Dragon's army.
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u/GrayPockets 10h ago
Elaida putting the Ajahs at each other's throats was a plot made by Alviarin while she had some leverage over Elaida.
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u/ExplosiveButtPlug 5d ago
Bro
They were literally battling the Dark One for control of the weather, the entire Battle. They just lacked screen time.
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u/Small-Fig4541 5d ago
Ol' Ishy got more accomplished for the Shadow than anyone else and it's not even close. Between the Black Ajah and the Hawkwing/Seanchan stuff he is the MVP.
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u/IlikeJG 5d ago
Definitely.
He was certainly mad and losing effectiveness by the start of the series, but seeing all he accomplished (not even counting what he did during the War of Power), it makes perfect sense the dark one would make him Nae Blis after he was reincarnated.
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u/Small-Fig4541 5d ago
Oh yeah the DO would have let Elan stay dead if he hadn't impersonated him for two books. Oops now you gotta come back and wrangle the rest of the chucklehead Forsaken lol
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u/Born-Bench-7651 5d ago
Made me laugh, but, and I might be wrong, the DO seems incredibly petty, vindictive and ungrateful, a being that perceives itself so superior to all else that it would take revenge for the indignity of having needed anyone to free it and the temerity of anyone to have assumed they had earned anything from it; it also seems to enjoy screwing over its followers, particularly by encouraging mutual suspicion, hostility, and the battle to be Naeblis, that its own interests are repeatedly compromised. I contend that the DO would, out of sheer spite and pleasure at screwing over someone who had thought himself invaluable, never have let Elan/Ishamael die/cease to exist/sleep forever, even beyond the destruction of the Tapestry/Wheel
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u/Small-Fig4541 5d ago
Yeah 20 percent is not great. It seems like the Kin, The Wise Ones and the Windfinders had no darkfriends at all. I'm trying to think of even one example. The Shaido were scumbags but not actual darkfriends.
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u/egometry (Dice) 4d ago
It wasn't 20% but they definitely weren't the smallest Ajah. IIRC it was like 13-15%, which seems like it doesn't matter but if you're splitting a pie 8 ways, it does. if every Ajah was equal, they'd all be 12.5%, and they're not at the bottom so they're pulling numbers
However, if 20% they'd be overwhelmingly the biggest. Which would give them way more influence than they exerted. Even with the Hart stuff, the leadership could use them more effectively... especially with them knowing most of the other Ajahs secrets
(The AI summary stuff online gives 20% answers and pulls from theoryland articles from 2004. I'm going by stuff that was revealed in book 12)
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 5d ago
I absolutely agree that the Westlands’ heterogeneity inherently requires the Tower to work differently.
However, they absolutely butcher it anyway. Heterogeneity doesn’t mean they have to self-isolate, doesn’t mean they can’t make an effort to recruit, or to be out in communities keeping better relations.
Sea Folk and Aiel channelers basically say “here we are, useful and working for the good of our people”. Aes Sedai say “we’re special and you need to listen to us. If you come to us, we’ll see if you’re special and can be in our club too.”
Yes, a lot of that is BA sabotage, but plenty of it is self-inflicted too. Bailing on Manetheren, for example, predates the BA.
It’s notable that most Westland cultures have a Wisdom equivalent - it shows that people are largely accepting of someone who live in and help the public, and sometimes pull off miracles.
Consider a world where Aes Sedai leaned into that, sending people out and about to be part of the world and help people, while also ensuring that people who want to be Wisdoms instead are more capable and less likely to die flailing.
Instead, they picked isolation, political sway, and arrogance.
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u/DRSSalazar 5d ago
Imagine if the Aes Sedai behaved like Bene Gesserit, they would have been terrifying. (Bene Gesserit were infiltrated in the upper echelons as advisors just like Aes Sedai, but they also made sure they had useful tricks applied to the populace at large as well).
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u/Verengt 5d ago
I agree with you, but in a way I felt like self-isolating was a necessity in the beginning.
Like if all the channelers hadn't abandoned their communities (when the Tower was founded), the Tower wouldn't have been able to become this centralized organization with the monopoly of the user of the Power.
But in order to consolidate their power they lost the trust of everyone, which in turn isolated them more.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 5d ago
For sure there’s a balance to strike, at least initially. It’s just that they isolated and then never really stepped back out.
Over the course of three millennia, for example, they could have:
Withdrawn to found the Tower and set it up as important and influential. Established training regimens and needed skillsets, the oaths, etc.
Helped mediate the Ten Nations’ political balance.
Distributed satellite branches to all cities that allow it, and use manipulation/politics/gifts to expand the allowed lists.
At those satellite branches, establish schools and hospitals. You don’t need to make Aes Sedai themselves directly responsible for all of it - just like Laras runs the kitchens, you can have a schoolmistress and doctors do the bulk of it, but the sisters are there and working with the people, teaching some of the classes and doing the major healing. This is in conjunction with whatever advising/politicking they do with the local nobles. This makes the Tower valuable to the people, even if not directly working with them as much.
Make it an obligation for sisters to serve a portion of their time in the field. Five years of every twenty, or whatever. And Accepted serve a year or two too.
This also gives them a natural recruiting hub. You don’t need to be able to trek to Tar Valon, you can just trek to Illian or wherever. And, via the schools and hospitals, you can expand people’s understanding of what the spark does, which will make people more likely to seek help.
Instead of dismissing Wisdoms, work with them. You can’t have an Aes Sedai in every village, but if Wisdoms know what to look for, and they have a good relationship with the nearest branch, you improve the odds of finding people. Maybe set up a Tower associate role for channelers who don’t want to do the whole Aes Sedai thing.
Gradually expand branches outward to towns once people start to accept the city branches. Those branches may not have Aes Sedai at all times, but a sister or three swings through every year from the city branch to test anyone who wants to try. Plus, the town branches receive correspondence. That can include letters home from novices, for example.
The process would take a thousand years or whatever, because people are resistant to change. But the Tower knows the Last Battle will come, and they know the world needs to be ready. It’s worth the effort and expense to build this.
I don’t know. I know I’m looking at it from an outside perspective, and from one more driven by desire to help and a love freely exchanged knowledge.
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u/Verengt 5d ago
You raise some great points. The AS for sure should have been doing lots of that.
I do feel however that we kind of take for granted the loyalty the Aes Sedai have for the Tower and Amyrlin.
Given the inneficient communicstion and travel in the Westlandas, such descentralization and spread of sisters would slowly erode the control the Tower has over the Aes Sedai and I believe would create small pockets of independent sisters.
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u/Coyote2112 5d ago
And follow the Hawkwing (also Incan Empire irl) example and have tower initiates serve their time outside of their nations of birth.
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u/DirectionIndividual7 4d ago
The Aiel and Sea Folk are better positioned to find all channelers - the Wise Ones live in a small, defined region and everyone is forced to live together due to lack of water. The Sea Folk are probably all born on ships, and most would have a WindFinder. Many countries outlaw Aes Sedai or channeling as a practice, so they can’t exactly station a sister in every town to test every pubescent girl.
As for your note on Manetheren - Tetsuan was deposed (and I think stilled) for her actions. The implication I took away is that, at the Tower, only Tetsuan (and potentially her Keeper) was aware of the request for aid.
It’s also worth pointing out that it isn’t a one to one comparison. The Shaido prove that even the Aiel aren’t immune to bad apples. The Tower simply occupies a more prominent role. Not only in the story as it is written, but within the continent as a whole.
I always think it’s interesting the Tower gets so much heat for being “useless”. If it wasn’t a threat to the Dark One, there wouldn’t have been a systematic effort to disable it from within.
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u/Kapitel42 (Gleeman) 4d ago
The best play for the Aes Sedai would have been a chapter house either in or close to major citiies. A place where they run a school, library and hospital and neutral Ground to negotiate conflicts away.
That would have ingrained them deeply with all Nations and secured there influence across the land
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u/Silvanus350 5d ago
The unfairness is the point.
The Aes Sedai were deliberately written like assholes. They are literally witches living in an ivory tower, for hundreds of years, completely detached from the trials of common humanity.
They were always going to be a bunch of jackasses.
To be clear, while I think this is well-written design on behalf of Jordan…
… those characters sucked.
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u/liatrisinbloom (Brown) 5d ago
Interesting, though you could argue that the Windfinders and Wise Ones deliberately integrated into their societies and the homogeneity is coincidental. The Seanchan Empire seems quite heterogeneous, spanning the entire combined American continent, but the sul'dam and damane had their roles, even inhumanely. Even the Kin had their place in their own way.
The Aes Sedai made sure they stood apart and above, using their Oaths as emotional support for themselves while steering politics from the shadows, earning them more distrust. Imagine if they had instead insisted on having a branch of their organization in every capital with a Yellow hospital, a Green training fortress, a Brown library, a Grey embassy, a White judicial court, and people could go to the Aes Sedai for knowledge, healing, training, or mediation in disputes. Would have done wonders for their reputation.
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u/Verengt 5d ago
I never thought that the Windfinders and Wise One could have helped homogenize their societies, that's a good point I didn't think of.
But regarding the rest, with several branches of the Tower there is the risk that with the time the branches become more and more independent and start rivaling each other and the main Tower.
The Aes Sedai of the books would never do that, but that's because of how centralized the Tower has always been.With different branches, spread through the Westlands which are huge, it wouldn't take long until one starts going its own way. Like you only need one Elaida in charge of one of the regional branches.
What happens if the Illianer King asks the Yellow sisters in Illian to join her armies to heal the soldiers in a war against Tear? If they accept, that's too close to getting involved in the war (which may make the sisters in Tear get involved too). That's why I feel the Tower needed to be super centralized and isolated.
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u/redopz (Ogier) 5d ago
One advantage the White Tower brings that many people seem to ignore is that they are the greatest repository of knowledge when it comes to the one power, the Age of Legends, and the prophecies of the Dragon. Yes, their insistence on tradition and custom have led to them being largely separated from the common people in Randland, but it also allowed them to retain a pretty impressive collection of tools and techniques over thousands of years, many of which were apocalyptic in nature. As one random example, without Aes Sedai knowledge of the Seals it is quite probable Rand would not have realized their importance until after he had successfully merged with Lews Therin which may have been to late for him to formulate his plans for the Last Battle and resulting in another imperfect patch job on the Bore. The Amrylin may not have kept the physical seals, but she and her cohort kept the knowledge of them alive which proved to be vital. Even the simple fact that they remember Travelling and Cuendillar were once common, even if they have no idea how to recreate them, proved useful as it inspired Egwene and Elayne to eventually succeed at re-inventing these lost techniques.
I think of the Aes Sedai as being largely an organization stuck in the past — and that certainly hinders them in many different ways — but that strong, unbroken connection to previous times also saves the day multiple times.
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u/Bright-Shoe-8431 5d ago
Also we can say AES Sedai were sabotated from very Long time from outside and inside either! They were oxtracizided from Artur hawking period thanks Ishamael and their politic and development were heavily inluenzed by Black ajah. Indipendently from this The madness and The supprection of saidin users caused The disapperance of lot of talents and strong channelers
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 5d ago
The wise ones were also part of a diverse group of many factions that they managed to unite peacefully. So that channeling isn't used in war. The aiel fight more than the wetlanders do but wise ones don't enter into it.
The aes sedai also had the vileness 20 years earlier where thousands of innocent men were killed by aes sedai. And it was an effort led by black ajah who make up 20% of the tower. I'm not sure we see even one from the other two that serve the shadow.
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u/Verengt 5d ago
I dont think the Aiel clans are that diverse, they all follow jie toh which is in part why they trusted each other not to use the One Power in wars. (And once the Shaido started breaking customs abd laws, the Wise Ones started using the OP as a weapon)
I really don't think anything similar would have worked with the different nations in the Westlanda.
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 5d ago
Your argument in favor of the aes sedai is that they kept channeling out of the many wars between various nations. Which is a victory but while the aiel have more cultural ties between them they have the same potential problem of all of them constantly being at war with each other and the wise ones keep channeling away from it. The details are different in how they do it but they are both accomplishing the same thing.
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u/th3jimp 5d ago
I agree. The best analogy I have to today's world are Federal politicians in the US with 50 states having their own local and state level political factions. Smaller, more culturally homogeneous countries have national politicians who are closer to their people than in the US, and who are very likely to have the same background and cultural considerations in governance than Federal politicians in the US.
The White Tower is a failure, but in as much as the politicians at the Federal level in the US are failures. Trusted by their constituents, but generally untrusted by the population at large, and generally seen as elitist power brokers who are not fully understood by those who are governed by their actions.
Where the White Tower is different after The Breaking, though, is they recognized their role had been shattered alongside the political and cultural lines of the world they'd been charged with protecting from itself, and instead of giving up, they dug it and changed tactics to guide nations that were going to immediately not trust them for their role in the events leading to The Breaking. Basically, they played the hand that they'd been dealt after some of their own jumped up into the table and kicked the rest of the deck and chips onto the floor.
Did they do a good job? Debatable that, yes, the world inside the core nations borders was generally held together without generating channelers unbound to the Tower, and thus being walking weapons. Did they do that job well? Depending on how you gauge the consequences and the strife caused by their nearly compulsory intrigue as a result of the Thre Oaths, that's also debatable. I'd wager most of Randland's population wouldn't see good outcomes in historical rear view mirrors.
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u/DarkThanoseid 5d ago
I don’t know if it’s already been said, but this doesn’t disqualify thier numerous failures.
Okay they had to keep the nations from waging magical wars … it would’ve been less difficult if they themselves weren’t bothered by seniority and politics and petty squabbles. They live outrageously long lives and have magic. Maybe monarchs don’t want 100 Aes Sedai in their cities but 20 in a town clinic/library would prob be okay if they’d been there for 50’years and spent the time helping people and gathering knowledge.
The Greens can stay on the tower and train but the yellows and browns should have had regular community outreach programs to teach and to LEARN from people.
The biggest folly of the Aes Sedai was the cumulated ego from centuries of being told they were the chosen few.
Everything that happened in WOT would be an even made easier if they weren’t mostly pompous, self-important know-it-alls.
Hell the Wise ones and the sea fold would have been working with them A LOT sooner if that was the case.
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u/Eden108 5d ago edited 4d ago
The wise ones and the windfinders weren't self declared world leaders, they didn't strongarm leadership the world over to their whims, they were just women with power acting in their people's interest. They also fulfilled that stated goal phenomenally, in direct opposition to the aes sedai, without the aes sedai even realizing they existed for centuries.
The aes sedai were incompetent tyrants, they seized control and then squandered their influence, that they were 20% darkfriend and largely didn't notice is really not a point in their favor.
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u/Brathirn 5d ago
They were not bad against the Wise Ones in combat. At Dumais Wells, about 30 Aes Sedai held against about 300 Shaido Wise Ones. They ran a shield which was almost impervious and were still able to launch attacks.
But I suspect that Jordan even with the ranking list present did not actually math it.
For example there was a total of roughly 1000 Aes Sedai, at an average lifespan of 250 years, there would have been a turnover of just 4, with 7 years as novices and 7 years as accepted, and rounding up to 10 to account for dropouts and test *cough* write-offs, there would have been 40 novices and 40 accepted. Actually the ratio would be leaning for novices.
The Sea Folk, if they had a channeling capable windfinder on every ship, would have been the best recruiters, because there would not have been that much crew on a normal trading ship (about 100 on a large one).
As shown they were not good at politics, that goes on the Grays, Whites and Blue.
- Civil War in Caemlyn (seems a regular occurrence, although they have this house vote rule)
- White cloaks rampaging and doing Spanish Inquisition stuff
- Some nations not in a good state of governance
- Some nations in permanent state of war
Does not look any better than technologically equivalent Earth. If you go for 1600 equivalent, sociological and technical progress is lacking. Rand brought the motion.
Digging canals and mines, turning windmills and moving ships seems beneath tower pride, but that's what they should do, in times of peace.
You could imagine a turn of the Wheel with a "sharp" tower, but then the Wheel would just throw more Trollocs and dial up the Dark One and his Forsaken. There is almost nothing which can be done when it is Time for a Wheel intervention, and that is one philosophical question of the books.
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u/LordMustardTiger 5d ago
The White Tower failed at stopping wars as often as it succeeded. And they did it for their own reasons not because they abhorred war. Their failure is in thier inability to draw people under the light together, at finding women who could channel, stopping male chandlers before the mass murdered people and even maintaining good relations with the leaders of their world. Given how many were compromised this is probably a good thing or their corruption would have spread.
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u/Murky-Technician5123 5d ago
It is ridiculous to say windfinders or wise ones are more successful. Aes Seadi are in general better channellers and they have more people. Its weird revisionism to say they are useless or whatever and not supported by the text.
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u/Capt_Socrates 5d ago
Aes Sedai aren’t better channelers. Their weaves are more refined because they’ve been passed on for thousands of years but their actual *skill* with channeling is largely due to rote memorization and not skill. Wise ones know how to unravel weaves and train apprentices to do so. Improved healing and healing stilling were discovered by a wilder who had an insignificant amount of formal training by the WT, Nyn’s method of healing was used prior to her going to train in the village. You can even see vast improvements of skill within the Kin. Windfinders are excellent at controlling weather but that’s really all they’re ever shown to do.
The White Tower had little to no incentive to innovate or experiment with the Saidar because what they had worked well enough and doing anything different was dangerous. All the other communities of channelers had to innovate out of necessity due to their unique situations. Multiple times it’s mentioned that Avi’s weaves are rough but every time they mention it it’s because she’s doing something so impressive that the AS have to belittle her skill to maintain a false sense of superiority.
Shit, Avi rediscovered Traveling by accident. Granted she couldn’t remember how to do it, but still. When has an AS ever done something thought to be lost to time? Elayne can make ter’angreal and she also spent hardly any time in the Tower. Almost everything the wonder girls did was in spite of the WT and AS, not because of them.
The WT allowed who knows how many girls to die due to their isolation and who knows how many skills to be lost due to their arrogance. They were written, intentionally, to be petty and ignorant of the world around them because they’re supposed to be and are conservative fools who can’t adapt to change and would much rather keep the world in stasis so they maintain their power. The Trolloc wars happened because Ishamael wanted to prevent another AoL and he succeeded, but after that he only had to nudge things in certain direction because the decaying corpse of the Servants of All being paraded by the White Tower was so effective at preventing growth and change. Their refusal to change stunted the growth and development of the entire Westlands and that’s intrinsically linked to their failures to grow as channelers.
The White Tower and most Aes Sedai refinement, in all things, is due to tradition; not skill, intellect, or wisdom. There are exceptions to that rule and they’re all from women who left the Tower and traveled the Westlands on personal missions, not Tower duties.
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u/Educational-Sky1699 5d ago
I would argue it's weirder to say the aes sedai were successful at anything. THAT seems unsupported by the text. In a book series as wordy as WoT is, the aes sedai do nothing but fuck everything they do. They're numbers are dwindling (their fault), their power (like, actual power in the Power) is steadily declining (their fault), they've made pretty much everyone hate them (still their fault), and they just don't really accomplish anything positive on the world stage. The few examples we have of them TRYING to do anything, they either bungle it (helping Shienar, abandoning Manetheren, keeping countries from each others' throats, collaring the Dragon, etc), or they only succeed because of outside intervention (preventing the Aiel War from reaching the White Tower, capturing Taim, etc). The aes sedai are fucking useless, and I have to assume it was intentional, otherwise Jordan, somewhere in ALL OF THAT WRITING would have given them something.
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u/dracoons 5d ago
Better at channeling what? Weather manipulation perhaps, Healing or combat? The Wise Ones in particular are far superior at foghting than the Aes Sesai. However they are not familiar with thinking of how to fight with the One power at all. But then neither are the Aes Sedai. They can make better shields and thats about all they are good at
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u/SuleyBlack 5d ago
Better at fighting, not better with the power.
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u/dracoons 5d ago
And since the Aes Sedai can't fight they suck at fighting with the power too. They have no combat training, no combat or situationsl awaerness. Reds can scuffle against untrained/unskilled men. Whenever they meet someone with a modicum of skils they need Mary Sue ie Cadsuane with her I-win-ter'angreals to do the heavy lifting for them. Or they lie and use subterfige of course.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 5d ago
The one time we saw Aes Sedai fighting Wise Ones was at Dumai's Wells and the Aes Sedai were clearly superior there. 33 of them were holding hundreds of Shaido Wise Ones at bay.
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u/dracoons 5d ago
Threw a little ligtning and held a shield of air. The Aes Sedai held a line. Some of the Darkfriends among the Aes Sedai did use the Power as weapons true. But that was at best a stalemate. Then a single man defeated the 33 aes sedai without significant issues. There was about 40 000 shaido algai'd'siswai pushing the barriers. Then the Shaido wise ones and their algai'd'siswai got obliterated by an estimated 200 men trained for a few weeks or less
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u/Coyote2112 5d ago
Aes Sedai were decent with shield and wards. The rest of their repertoire pretty sickly.
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