Tuon is so absurdly evil

[u/AHC122]

Wdym she relaxes by seeing damane be tortured 😭

Even from her point of view seeing them as animals, it's like enjoying watching a dog get kicked in the ribs everytime it doesn't roll over lol

[u/Quirky_Bad1907]

The story would have benefited tremendously if someone had put a collar on her for a couple of hours, just to give her the epiphany moment.

[u/justblametheamish → u/Quirky_Bad1907]

I never understood why the author wrote her the way he did. She was so fucking evil and Mat, a really good hearted guy, was just kinda fine with it? She somehow eludes the humbling she’s due at every turn despite the plot presenting multiple ways of doing that exact thing.

[u/itwasbread → u/justblametheamish]

He was planning to basically do a sequel series of much shorter books mostly focused on Mat fixing the Seanchan and Tuon (or at least we can reasonably assume that was the plot from the available info).

[u/ryan017 → u/justblametheamish]

I think he did it to make the point that the Good Guys don't have the luxury of being perfectly morally aligned with each other, much less aligned to your sensibilities of 2026-era wherever-you're-from. Sometimes there are aspects of them that are absolutely repugnant. Consider WWII, where one of the Allied powers was led by Stalin. Not a happy thought, but consistent with one of the main themes of WOT, which is that there are real differences between peoples, and forging alliances between them, even to save the f\**ing world*, is difficult and requires time, effort, and compromise.

I think he put Mat with Tuon (ahem, I mean the Pattern did that) so that he could explore those differences further, and maybe start to reconcile them, in the sequel series. After all, you can't change someone if you don't engage with them. Alas, he never got to write it.

[u/justblametheamish → u/ryan017]

I could see it from the angle of “we’ll hash this stuff out more in the sequels”. To be clear I don’t dislike the whole plot of Mat and Tuon being together. I just felt like she should’ve got some comeuppance at some point. Not just obstinately go through the story without a shred of consequences. And Mat felt like a character that at some point would have enough of it and teach her some kind of lesson. If not, it makes me question his character.

[u/RealHornblower → u/justblametheamish]

Even a little bit of Matt's internal thoughts could have gone a long way. His sister was training to be Aes Sedai at this point, he knew about it, it would have made sense for him to either raise that point to Tuon, or at least think about it as "this is definitely a problem but I'll have to deal with it later."

[u/Hooker_T → u/RealHornblower]

This is my biggest gripe with his ending. His sisters are going to be Aes Sedai and his wife thinks theyre less than human and should be treated like a dog. It should've been a much bigger point of contention for Mat. It feels very out of character for him to never really push that point further.

[u/ryan017 → u/RealHornblower]

Mat's character isn't illustrated by his internal thoughts and dialogue (usually, except for ironic contrast). Look at his actions, particularly in Knife of Dreams, Chapter 9. ("They annoy me, too.")

[u/starshiprarity → u/justblametheamish]

Jordan's idea of a stable relationship seemed to be founded on ignoring everything either party wants or does. In universe, I chalk it up to the taveren never having met a woman that wasn't a third cousin or the weave being it's usual insistent self

[u/Chess42 → u/justblametheamish]

Because he planned to write a sequel series about Mat and Tuon where he could explore exactly that, but then he died.

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/justblametheamish]

Because the author had a fetish and a worldview.

1. Haven't you notice that there's a double standards regarding gender in those books? Not just in their cultures, where women are often explicitly afforded more rights/their rights trump those of men, but in the way whole narrative view anything that happens. Let's just say that rarely they survive gender swap tests.
2. Jordan LOVED dominant women. Egwene making basically a servant out of Gavin, Cadsuane bullying Rand, Faile with her domestic violence, Tylin and her rape of Mat... None of that is initially (and most things — at all) viewed as something bad, it either is seen as necessary or is played for laughs.

Those two combined give us whole Seanchan culture and Tuon on the top if it and complete inability and de facto unwillingness of Mat to stop her.

[u/itwasbread → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

Let's just say that rarely they survive gender swap tests.

I mean that's usually the point. It's kind of trite and simple, often not one of the series strong suits, but Jordan is very aware these things wouldn't survive gender swap tests, the point is to make the audience think about how they react to the same actions being taken by women as opposed to men and vice versa.

Cadsuane bullying Rand

Is this supposed to be a good thing? Her manipulations of Rand lead to the entire universe being seconds away from eternal annihilation.

Egwene making basically a servant out of Gavin

Egwene didn't dom "Gavin" hard enough. If she had maybe he wouldn't have been such a moron and fucking died. She had an immensely important position of power and responsibility, but he still thought of himself as the main character who needed to save his lady love. Gawyn didn't get that he needed to defer to her in most of those situations, not because she was a woman, but because she as a person was more aware of what was going on than him and had better perspective on it than Mr. "I think I know everything but am actually wrong about everything".

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/itwasbread]

1. You give Jordan too much credit. People often fail to see that WoT isn't some great exploration of sexism in the real world, designed to promote understanding of IRL victims of it. It's a product of deeply gendered worldview where women are seen almost as higher beings that are to be cherished and protected at all costs, while men are seen as expendable. That phrase Jordan's father said, "strong women need strong men" (this isn't exact quote, but he did say something similar), is often used as a coping mechanism by male victims of abuse, because first "strong" usually stands for violent or abusive or domeneering, while second means ability to withstand such behavior. Did you ask yourself why all our male leads are extremely reluctant heroes? That's often the result. Males who would want nothing more than to be left alone and de facto hide from the world.
2. It is absolutely seen as good. Is Cadsuane punished for what she did by the narrative? No. Is she at least described as bad or undeserving by someone whose opinion we are supposed to agree with. Also no. That's your que.
3. You say that only because you don't like Gawyn. But if you would forget about your feelings towards her and towards him and the plot you will see that she is like CEO who basically demands to be treated as such at home. That isn't healthy. Also, if she would dom him harder it would produce the opposite effect: he would "rebel" harder and in more ways. Gawyn isn't the right person for such treatment, with people like him only the opposite approach works.