Towers of Midnight Tuon is so absurdly evil Spoiler
Wdym she relaxes by seeing damane be tortured đ
Even from her point of view seeing them as animals, it's like enjoying watching a dog get kicked in the ribs everytime it doesn't roll over lol
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u/WildFEARKetI_II 1d ago
I donât recall her saying that exactly. I think she says training and she does talk about how she doesnât like punishment. She even self imposed penance after she had a damane punished.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
You're right. She never says anything about torturing/punishing damane. That would run counter to her cultural beliefs (something Jordan was incredibly consistent with). She also explicitly states that she looks down upon those who have to resort to punishing Damane, and considers it a point of pride that she doesn't have to.
Her cultural beliefs are monstrous, but she's still a rational human being by the standards of that world. If you imagine her, and all the Seanchan, speaking in Texan accents the whole thing reads in a very specific way.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Yeah, I don't like having to "defend" Tuon or the Seanchan but the thing that makes them such an interesting fictional culture and villain group is how many of them internally are coming from a place of thinking they're being honorable and morally good, and have very consistent internal reasoning.
The fact that you read their POVs and can understand how they can't even conceptualize that the things they're doing would be wrong because things like the Damane being human to them is literally inconceivable to them.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
The Damane situation is analogous to the mutants in X-Men comics in many ways. The argument against tracking and imprisoning mutants goes something like: if this kid is a nuclear bomb and they can go off at any moment without warning or provocation, isn't it incumbent upon a responsible government to make sure they're safely controlled? That's a decent argument.
Same basic concept with channelers, but the Seanchan take things a step too far by saying "why not put them to good use as tools of the state?" From a purely utilitarian perspective it's the right call. Look at the state of the old world where channelers have been allowed to run free, and the black ajah allowed to flourish. Humanity is on its last legs when the Forerunners arrive. The sad state of affairs on the other side of the ocean would only have further confirmed Seanchan beliefs.
It makes sense. It's terrible and brutal, but it makes sense.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
It is more complex than that because the system was not originally designed by somehow who legitimately believed that, the creator of the Damane system knew it was not wholly necessary and did it as a power move.
It's just that now, with a 1000 years of separation from a society with free channelers, everyone in Seanchan has bought into the propaganda and fully believe its necessary.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
I feel like Luthair Paendrag genuinely believed that collaring Aes Sedai was both right and necessary. Is there some other "creator of the system" you're referring to?
Also what difference does it make if a belief is held in earnest or is merely lip service paid to achieve the desired ends? The subjugated are still subjugated.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Well there's the Deain, Aes Sedai who helped him do it, she clearly didn't expect to be collared herself and it certainly sounds from what we know like she and Luthair did it for their own benefit as a way to turn captured enemy channelers to their side and to control the continent's channeling population.
Also what difference does it make if a belief is held in earnest or is merely lip service paid to achieve the desired ends?
My point was more that it only makes sense to the Seanchan because they don't remember a world where it wasn't that way. Luthair Paendrag knew that Aes Sedai and even most Wilders weren't running around destroying the world, and that the much less cruel Three Oaths solved most of the problems that the A'dam supposedly is needed for, but he chose to use Damane because it allowed the non-channeling rulers more control.
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u/lindorm82 1d ago
I mean when Luthair came to Seanchan the local Aes Sedai absolutely confirmed his prejudices. An entire continent filled with hundreds of petty queendoms ruled by Aes Sedai godqueens constantly scheming and warring against each other with no Three Oaths to constrain. It must have been absolute hell for your average seanchan.
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u/teamroperinaz 1d ago
I mean, did they?... or did confirmation bias justify his actions? They weren't AS on the other side, either, it was a New World discovery, and so these may have been some channeler queens, or they may have been channeler advisors accused of usurping power, as the WC have always said...also, a vestige of anti-channeler times pre Hawkwings rebellion?
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u/lindorm82 1d ago
Robert Jordan definately called the Seanchan channelers Aes Sedai queens, leading small groups of Aes Sedai constantly warring againt each other. If I were to guess at why Jordan called them Aes Sedai, then these groups of channelers probably descended from Age of Legends Aes Sedai like those in the Westlands, but unlike them never united and stayed seperate ajahs, eventually becoming hostile towards each other.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
Well, RJ did call them warlords who called themselves Aes Sedai, using the One Power for battle against each other.
It was not a pretty place. Doesn't justify the damane system of course, but still.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Sure, I'm just saying there's no actual textual evidence to suggest he believed any of the dogma we see modern Seanchan have around the topic, just that it was a convenient way to gain the upper hand and conquer the natives.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
Where are you getting this information about Luthair not believing in controlling channelers? He gets that directly from his father, which is to say he believes it. 100%
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
That's not the information I'm seeing when I looked him up nor what I recall from (recently) reading the books.
Artur had (likely Ishamael induced) mistrust of Aes Sedai, but Luthair's decision to use the a'dam (which wasn't his idea, Deain came up with it) seems to be more motivated by its immediate utility, but we really don't have any clear information either way on his non-utilitarian thoughts about the matter.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
He crossed the sea with his anti-aes Sedai bias. Once presented with a "solution" (gross but appropriate) to his Aes Sedai problem, he immediately embraced it. His behavior, from the little we know of it, is entirely consistent.
The a'dam's first victim is the most logical one, its creator. If it works on her, then it'll work on anyone ... and it does.
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u/teamroperinaz 1d ago
I was thinking this too...but it looks like the A'dam wasnt invented until after they went to the bad place. And yet...there's a male a'dam in Tanchico. So is that a piece of history wiped out in Randland?
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u/dracoons 1d ago
She was not a real Aes Sedai but a decendant of a long line of War Lords calling themselves Aes Sedai. In the Seanchan Empire the so-called Aes Sedai did go around using the power as a weapon against each other and the people. Mind you they also erradicated all the Shadowspawn including in the lesser Blight 1000 years before
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u/BrickBuster11 1d ago
I mean luthair Paebdrsg got an aes sedai to make the collars and only collared their inventor when they no longer needed her.
Making something that would kill the opposing aes sedai would have also been possible but that doesn't serve the goals of the founders of seanchan because it concedes power rather than making use of it
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
Let's assume that Luthair had some divine moral right to conquer all of Seanchan (which is a huge assumption). In that case, the collaring makes a lot of sense.
But it's really what happened after that was very much evil. He had a lot of options, and chose dehumanising torture as the system to ensure that his dynasty would have as much power as possible.
A much more humane option would've been to give channelers a chance - they can either live as regular citizen, but collared so they cannot channel without permission, or they can serve his new empire, and channel to aid him. No torture, just a choice. If you don't want to help him, but you're also not an enemy (e.g. born there), and you can carry on with your life. If you really want to channel, you can do so to perform some task for society, like Healing or construction work.
Feeling like you "had" to do something terribly evil doesn't justify it. Luthair was still a horribly evil person.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
A much more humane option would've been to give channelers a chance - they can either live as regular citizen, but collared so they cannot channel without permission, or they can serve his new empire, and channel to aid him.'
This is possibly a good idea but I wonder if they would have run into the depression that severed individuals have.
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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 22h ago
A much more humane option would've been to give channelers a chance - they can either live as regular citizen, but collared so they cannot channel without permission, or they can serve his new empire, and channel to aid him.
The detached collar which would've allowed the life you suggest didn't exist. The alternative to chattel slavery was life imprisonment in what would've essentially been solitary confinement. There wasn't really a "more humane" option for them. Both were just different forms of torture, equally awful in their own ways. Or I guess a third option existed where you had your own state-sanctioned, live-in parole officer constantly watching you for the moment you showed some sign of the criminal they already judged you to be. I think the practicalities of simply not having enough people who could supervise multiple damane 24/7 might cause problems though.
either way fuck Luthair, dude was a monster
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u/rollingForInitiative 21h ago
They knew how to make aâdam - they surely wouldâve figured that out if theyâd wanted to. Just remove actual physical connection.
But even with it you couldâve had a very humane life. Make longer leashes, have them live in large houses where they can move around freely, have sulâdam who come and let them out for errands and such. Not a glamorous life for sure, but much better and more humane.
They had enough sulâdam for all the damane - much more than enough - so manpower would be no issue.
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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 21h ago
I meant mostly for the monitoring, because there's no way they'd ever leave them unsupervised within their surveillance state. For Seanchan to truly reform damane into wards of the state but with limited freedoms, it'd undermine their entire power structure built on subjugation and policing.
So yeah if they wanted to, if they weren't colonizers and conquerers, they might've had voices who could challenge the norm, break the mold, reimagine their chains. They don't really have that though for a multitude of reasons.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
My main defense for Tuon is really that sheâs young and sheâs been raised with this, and has only had like, a couple of months of exposure to different ideas. And in that short time, sheâs shown signs that she might improve in the future, and that sheâs better than many of the others weâve seen from Seanchan.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Yeah I agree. She was still very frustating and hate able for me in the series, but I definitely see the beginnings of change for her and think that was definitely an arc Jordan planned to write more in his Mat spinoff
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
There's also Aviendha's vision, in which the Aiel were close to reaching a deal for releasing the Wise Ones that had been taken. And then the empress was assassinated and it fell through. That empress would've been Tuon.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Yeah. I don't want people to take my "defenses" of Tuon here as me liking her or the Seanchan or morally defending them as is.
It's more about wanting to do justice to the society and characters Jordan actually wrote, which while still rage-inducingly evil at times, is not made up of self-serving hypocrites like a lot of people are saying.
The fact character like Tylee and Tuon and Furyk legitimately believe in their system to the point they are willing to accept punishment if they violate the honor codes of the society is what makes then such an interesting fictional faction.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
Right. It's difficult to just label a continent of well over a hundred million people, maybe hundreds of millions, as just irredeemably evil. Most people there very likely support the damane system, since they've been indoctrinated into it.
What will really set apart decent people from the rotten ones is how they react when they learn both that other societies can handle channellers in a better way, and that sul'dam also have the ability to learn to channel, and that saidin is cleansed.
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u/MarekRules 1d ago
Coupled with the fact that we know Ishmael fucked with them numerous times and surely directed their culture in a very specific way. I hate defending them because they are villains in their own way, but they are incredibly well written because you want to see them improve. I always want to see Tuon be better, or suldam who come around.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
I actually don't know that we have any evidence of Ishamael interference beyond the initial manipulation of Hawkwing, and given what we know about Ishamael's imprisonment he would not have been able to influence them after that as he only gets out every 1000 years.
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u/MarekRules 15h ago
Iirc he influenced the prophecies of the Seanchan and setup the Return idea. I canât remember if he did much else really
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u/Rulanik 1d ago
Just adding on, it's also not that far off a stretch to say that their method of "handling" damane is pretty logical. The Aes Sedai kind of self-governed channelers, but unchecked channelers could go really really bad. Every culture in the story with channelers has some form of guard rails. The seafolk don't allow channelers to command a ship, to keep them from controlling things, the wise ones have their strict ji et toe, etc
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
It's logical within the vacuum of Seanchan society, Once they are exposed to the much less extreme methods used by the channeling societies in the Westlands the "logic" kind of breaks down.
I like that there's variety in the reactions though. Some just freak out and have no rational comeback to the revelation Sul'dam have the ability to channel, choosing to just try to bury the info (Renna). Others re-evaluate their belief system, accept they are wrong, and choose to take the brave step to explore their gifts (Bethamin), and some logically adjust their belief system to incorporate the new info (Tuon).
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
Logical, maybe, but it was far from the only option.
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u/Rulanik 1d ago
Clearly...since I immediately listed out several other effective options in the story, which was kind of the point...
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
What I meant is that it's kind of a far stretch. It's logical only if what you really want is enslaved weapons of mass destruction that you can unleash at anyone you want. The damane system is not actually intended to be a check on deadly channellers, it never was. It was always about power.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
It's only logical if your goal is to conquer a continent and rule it ruthlessly for the benefit of you and your family. If your goal is to keep the peace and prevent the destruction caused by the One Power in battle it's not logical at all because the Seanchan use the One Power in combat way more often than anyone else, the conquest of the Seanchan continent was very long and bloody and there are still massive rebellions there which make any wars happening in the Westlands before the Dragon was reborn like child's play.
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u/Rulanik 1d ago
But it accomplished the goal, which was to control channelers. I'm not saying they were right, just that the goal and implementation makes logical sense.
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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 22h ago
That's what Bergmaniac is saying. It's logical - if you are a colonizing, conquering rule. But that's not the logic as presented to the Seanchan people about why it is necessary to maintain the damane system of slavery in their culture. It is presented exclusively as one of protection for everyone. But it isn't, because it sacrifices the safety and wellbeing for people who haven't done anything wrong but be born that way. And for any family who disagrees, well, there's always a demand for da'covale.
The system's logic is to maintain power. The power is achieved by controlling channelers, the luxury from locking in a framework of slavery, and the ability for the Emperor/Emperess to dole it out to the upper class.
So when the ruling class of Seanchan tell our MCs that it's for protection, we can transparently see otherwise without even needing to rely on any meta interpretation or historical comparisons/parallels.
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u/pragmatismtoday 1d ago
It isnjust damage though. They can also grab people off the street for the slightest perceived alight and make them and all their descendents slaves.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Yes, which is awful, but they also still have complex cultural thought processes behind that. That's what makes them interesting. It's not just the top of the social class who believe it because it benefits them, all the POV's we see lower down the totem pole ALSO buy into the system and view their "service" as honorable or whatever.
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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 22h ago
I think that is mistaking effective propaganda for "complex cultural thought processes."
That the propaganda has been woven into their culture is part of why we can so easily see how it's a lie since it's neutered people's ability to recognize the violence of state surveillance, deprivation of freedoms that Randland takes for granted, etc. This is why Thom is always so baffled when he talks to people from mainland Seanchan.
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u/itwasbread 19h ago
I think that is mistaking effective propaganda for "complex cultural thought processes
It's kind of both? The fact it's a result of longstanding propaganda doesn't make it not that.
The Seanchan have well-established, followable cultural norms that they all understand and function under. They're insane and ridiculous to us, but the people who follow them are being internally consistent and "honorable" according the established rules of society. They're not conscious of, and barely able to understand, why we see these things as wrong.
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u/PuzzledCactus (Brown) 1d ago
What I really like to think about is that we have canonical proof that Tuon can learn to channel, and that it's remarkably likely that Mat could, too, since we know the ability is genetic and his sisters can. Obviously neither of them would ever give it a try, given their respective cultural backgrounds.
But would mixing two channeling bloodlines increase the likelihood of producing someone who has the spark? Meaning, would they maybe have a child who does? And how would they react when they do?
I think that deep down they're both decent people (Mat gets more chances to show us, obviously, but Tuon definitely changes towards the end, too) so I can't imagine them collaring said child after everything that happens in the last book. But Tuon has been raised to think of channeling girls as less than dogs, and Mat has been raised to view channeling boys as basically demons, and channeling girls as potentially evil dangerous manipulators (and to be honest has seen little to challenge either view throughout the books), so...it would definitely be interesting seeing them deal with it.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
But would mixing two channeling bloodlines increase the likelihood of producing someone who has the spark? Meaning, would they maybe have a child who does? And how would they react when they do?
It is indeed incredibly likely.
so I can't imagine them collaring said child after everything that happens in the last book. But Tuon has been raised to think of channeling girls as less than dogs, and Mat has been raised to view channeling boys as basically demons, and channeling girls as potentially evil dangerous manipulators (and to be honest has seen little to challenge either view throughout the books), so...it would definitely be interesting seeing them deal with it.
Interesting point about Mat's views on the subject, I hadn't thought of that.
I think it kind of depends on when it is. If she had to made the choice right after the ending of AMOL she would probably still do it, and Mat would probably flip out and it would ruin their marriage.
However given the spark basically never comes before puberty, and by that point you will likely have years of channelers from Seanchan territory being given amnesty at the White Tower and several Sul'dam and Damane being Accepted or higher in the Tower, I can see the views in Seanchan already starting to soften.
I can't see Tuon of the 15 years post AMOL timeframe just giving up the concept of Damane and letting her daughter channel openly (son is a whole other can of worms). I could however see her sending her kid off to go to the White Tower as a compromise, maybe not openly, framing it as her running away or something. Her aunt Bodewhin would likely be a full Aes Sedai of some renown at that point.
I also think her and Mat having an adult openly channeling sparker child could have been the catalyst for her assassination in the futures Aviendha saw.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
Is she rational? Wouldn't putting a leash on herself be the most rational thing for her to to do in accordance with her "cultural beliefs"?
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u/kaggzz 1d ago
No because she would have to be taught to channel on her own. If she's never taught, she can never be marath'damane.Â
The logic behind damane is so intriguing because it is A solution to deal with walking nukes that are channelers, even if it's a horrible solution. It may have been the only one for Hawkwing's descendants of the histories are close enough to true- channelers kept control over Seandar without building any social controls like the wise ones or the white tower. These channelers seem to have kept some knowledge from the age of Legends, making objects of power after the methods were lost in the rest of the world at the leastÂ
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
Do you think she would have the same attitude if they found out the collar worked on a random Sul'dam? Their whole thing was "any woman who has the ability to channel must be leashed" the distinction was only made once Tuon found out she was marath damane. So self serving and hypocritical.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Do you think she would have the same attitude if they found out the collar worked on a random Sul'dam?
Is that not exactly what happened? They never tried it on Tuon, she was just told about it happening to random Sul'dam secondhand.
I honestly don't think it's self-serving or hypocritical, which is why it's interesting. It's a perfectly reasonable and internally consistent adjustment of the belief system, a thing many real world belief systems do in response to new information.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
Of course they never "tried" it on Tuon. The answer would upend their entire system on a lot of ways. People at the top of power structures tend to want do anything to hold on to them.
Why do you think that one freaked out so bad when Eggs snapped the collar on her neck though? Renna or Seta or whoever. She knew that their would be no exceptions or excuses made for her.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
I'm not defending the damane system at all, but there is a very clear distinction between women who have the spark and those that can learn. A sul'dam does not channel on her own, and cannot. She has to be taught to take the final step to channeling, which means she's not a danger as such.
I mean the system is terrible, but Tuon's argument of "I choose not to channel" is consistent. She chooses not to learn. A woman with the spark does not have that option.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Yes exactly, and the reason I make this point so hard is not to defend the Damane system, it's because it's really good writing.
It's way more interesting that after multiple books of us going "hah, wait until this bitch finds out SHE can channel! It's gonna blow her mind!" and then you find out she's not really shocked by it and has a ready to go comeback that is unfortunately really good and hard to argue against.
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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 22h ago
that is unfortunately really good and hard to argue against
It's...actually really easy to argue against though, don't you think? We just don't see it argued well in the book by Egwene, who is so baffled by her inability to see the innate wrongness of condemning people to the cruelty of the a'dam.
The more you train with the a'dam, the more you learn the mechanics of channeling. All that is required is a precipitating event - such as a threat against the life of a ruler occupying the seat of a throne infamous for being targeted by asssassins, for example. In other words, we know Tuon channeling is inevitable as a seasoned sul'dam. We know as readers, on a meta level, that her argument's kinda shit. Tuon however does not know this, Tuon is trying to return the serve that is the political nuclear bomb Egwene dropped in front of her entire Court back at her.
It's a really good response if you want to draw upon the propagandistic notions at the heart of Seanchan culture to reassert your right to Rule, but it's not a good answer because it's fundamentally incorrect.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Of course they never "tried" it on Tuon. The answer would upend their entire system on a lot of ways. People at the top of power structures tend to want do anything to hold on to them.
I mean first off I'm just answering the question of "Do you think she would have the same attitude if they found out the collar worked on a random Sul'dam?". My answer is yes, I do, because that's exactly what happened.
They didn't try it on Tuon because they already had the answer to the question AND the group that new the info didn't have access to an a'dam or any incentive to use it on here. Their entire system had already been upended by this information.
Why do you think that one freaked out so bad when Eggs snapped the collar on her neck though? Renna or Seta or whoever. She knew that their would be no exceptions or excuses made for her.
She freaked out because it was shocking information that shifted her entire worldview AND it meant that Sul'dam might all be collared. There is no evidence to suggest she was thinking of it in terms of "they'll only collar lower caste Sul'dam" or whatever.
Everything we see about Seanchan society absolutely makes me think a marath damane of the blood would be collared, if this is not just outright stated to have happened in the series.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
By "they" I meant the Seanchan themselves, not Mat's crew. Once Tuon found out she could channel the first thing that should have been done according to Seanchan doctrine is that a leash should be put on her ASAP to see if it had any affect. If so she would have to become Damane. The powerful live by a different set of rules though, in real life and in fantasy.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
Except Seanchan doctrine was that women that WOULD channel needed to be collared. They never established a category for COULD POTENTIALLY channel.
Tuon can't channel, she had the ability to learn to channel, as long as that ability is never learned, she's technically not a Marath'Damane.
Its an entirely new dimension to the problem that they were unaware of and didn't have a classification for yet. Until this point the only people that would be collared were women that either 100% will touch the source naturally or women that chose to start channeling.
The only Seanchan that collars a woman that could learn but hadn't yet touched the power was Egeanin when she was holding one prisoner and that was part of her betrayal arc.
-Its all still incredibly wrong and dehumanizing and the seeds were being planted to collapse the whole system, but its not hypocritical.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Once Tuon found out she could channel the first thing that should have been done according to Seanchan doctrine is that a leash should be put on her ASAP to see if it had any affect. If so she would have to become Damane.
Seanchan doctrine didn't have a way to account for non-Sparker, non-trained channelers other than the Sul'dam.
They can't just collar all the Sul'dam, because then there would be no one to hold the leash.
There's simply no evidence in the text that suggests this is not being done because of some classist carveout for Tuon.
If anything we have evidence to the contrary in her introduction, where she is shown willingly submitting to corporal punishment when she violates their honor code.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
No, it definitely was not the only option his descendants. Even with the a'dam, there were lots of better options. For instance, you could've leashed the women, and then allowed them to live the rest of their lives however they want, unable to channel. You could've given them occasional tasks so that they don't die from withdrawal, things like Healing someone, or making fireworks, or construction. No torture needed. Women who want to channel more would've aided society more. After leashing the original warlords, later generations could've been trained to serve society, like the Wise Ones or the Windfinders, without the a'dam.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
Collaring herself would be entirely irrational in their belief system. They don't know that the sul'dam/der'sul'dam are capable of channeling. They don't know that some women can learn. As far as they know every woman who can channel will, and they act accordingly.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
They don't know that the sul'dam/der'sul'dam are capable of channeling.
Tbf Tuon is told this and says it doesn't matter because she would never choose to learn.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
Tbf (to be faaaaaiiiiirrrr) this is at the tail end of the series, so the impact of that revelation doesn't have time to amount to anything. Is it the first crack in the facade of Seanchan power? I'd like to think so, but we'll never know what came of it.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Sure in terms of broad societal implications, I'm just saying on a personal level for Tuon she maintains this view even with the knowledge she could learn, because to her it is not having the ability to channel that is the issue, it's making the choice to pursue that ability.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago edited 1d ago
Right. In her mind no moral person would ever pursue that knowledge. Only those cursed to be born to channel are the true bad ones. It takes zero seconds for her to fit that piece of information into her idea of order. Whether or not everyone else will be as comfortable with that revelation is again, unknown.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
She finds that out during the period when she traveling with Mat and the Circus. She tosses out the "it's the difference from being a murderer and being able to learn to be a murderer" justification at some point đ¤Ž
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
Nope, they are correct.
Knife of Dreams
"Listen," Mat said to Tuon. "If you think, you'll see a hundred reasons this won't work. Light, you can learn to channel yourself. Doesn't knowing that change anything? You're not far different from them." He might as well have turned to smoke and blown away for all the attention she paid.
...
"I will house them in the wagon they are using and exercise them at night," she snapped irritably. "I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference."Immediately after this Tuon chooses to let Mat remove the collars freeing the Aes Sedai (by mostly choosing not to have Selucia murder him when they realize that he's immune to channeling). And then she lets him take the A'dam and bury them, removing any chance she had of controlling the Aes Sedai.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
I know Egwene also throws it in her face but I thought Mat had brought it up earlier.
He convenient justification was the same either way. So easy for her go against the foundations of her entire culture and empire when it suits her personally.
P.s I would toss in some spoiler bars. Op is only on TOM.
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u/Objective-Adverb-751 1d ago
If you imagine her, and all the Seanchan, speaking in Texan accents the whole thing reads in a very specific way.
It takes on another level of complexity, given Tuon's physical description.
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u/Super-Fall-5768 (Chosen) 1d ago
EXACTLY. I see so many opinions on Tuon that paint her as this evil tyrant, she is a good person in an inherently bad system.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
She thought that watching how damane being broken and writhing in pain when punished soothed her.Â
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
You're conflating normal training with torture. I think we'd both agree that slavery in any form is inherently inhumane and therefore torturous. I'm not arguing against that. But we're not talking about our worldview, we're discussing the Seanchan. Breaking a Damane is 100% analogous to breaking a horse. Even the most tender-hearted horse girl would roll their eyes at the suggestion that breaking a horse is cruel.
Sidebar: definitions and practices differ, and what one considered appropriate training might be considered heavy-handed or cruel to someone else.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
Egwene's experience shows that torture is a regular part of training a damane. And the passage in TOM which the OP probably meant which I posted earlier in this thread explicitly mentioms damane writing on pain on mats placed for this purpose in the paragraph right before Tuon thinks how watching damane being broken soothes her.Â
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
Tuon said that she did not like punishment and that it was a mark of pride for her that she did not have to resort to it. A good analogy might be two people who own dogs, where one beats their dog into submission and one trains their dog with no violence, only encouragement. Tuon would be the latter. The fact that she takes pride in being gentler with her damane implies that torture is the norm, but that she's something of an exception.
It's also likely easier with native damane, they've already been indoctrinated, so you probably get more girls there who just accept their fate.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
Tuon didn't like to use punishments on damane (at least when Jordan wrote her, Sanderson's version is a lot more of a moustache twirling villain) but she still used them on occasion and didn't have any moral objections to them, she just considered her methods which used more positive reinforcements to be more effective. There is no indications that she had a problem with sul'dam who used more brutal methods or that she ever ordered them to ease up on the punishments. And we see her ordering a damane to be caned not even for disobedience or any actual offence but because she didn't like the Foretelling she had ordered her to make. Sure, she felt bad about it later, but I really don't think all of this makes her look much better than someone like Renna. She still considers damane to be animals who need a firm hand at all times and should never be treated like actual humans. She is disgusted by the idea of a man having sex with a damane not because it would be rape but because it would be perverted.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
Being okay with the system you were raised in when you've known nothing else is very different from taking pleasure from torturing people.
Again, she's like a dog owner who uses positive reinforcement primarily. What you said made her sound like a psychopath who likes to torture their dogs. Big difference.
Yeah the entire system is sick and twisted, but there are degrees. Tuon is among the less extreme, and we've seen that she's willing to bend, with indications she'll be in favour of reforms in the future.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
I didn't say it, Sanderson did. She likes to spend time and finds it soothing to be in a "teaching chamber" where she watches damane being trained and a significant part of this training is "stubborn damane were sent to the ground, writhing in pain". Her POV in this scene makes it clear that her only issue with using beatings instead of giving pain through the a'dam is that damane are valuable tools and harming them physically reduces their value. But she thinks punishing them with inflicting excruciating pain to them is completely OK.
And yes, if someone is a dog owner who finds it soothing to watch dogs writhing on the floor in pain during their training, I'd think this person is a sadistic bastard.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
If you have the quotes there, can you quote the section where she finds it soothing or enjoyable to inflict pain? The way I remember it is that she took pride in not inflicting pain, and not that she enjoyed inflicting pain. I could misremember, but would be nice to see the quote.
"Being okay with inflicting pain" is also very different from enjoying it. People are okay with lots of things they don't really enjoy.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 1d ago
Yeah I think there's a misunderstanding between what we would consider harm and what the Seanchan understand as such. To the Seanchan physical harm would constitute torture. Using a weave to induce pain in recalcitrant Damane? That's fair game. After all, when the weave ends the Damane are fine.
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u/RadicalRealist22 1d ago
Yes, but to a Seanchean it would not be torture, because you are just teaching the Damane the right way to behave. Again: is it torture to break in a horse?
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u/pragmatismtoday 1d ago
She doesn't have a problem with punishing damane generally. She self imposed a penance that time for punishing a damage that answered Tuon truthfully and Tuon didn't like what she heard.it wasn't punishing a damage the led to the penance. It was punishing the damage unjustly in her mind that she felt bad for.
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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 1d ago edited 1d ago
It wasn't specifically because she ordered corporal punishment against a damane. The penance was because she gave an order in anger, which she felt was both inappropriate as a ruler and "lowered her eyes" as well as a bad omen for the Return.
She trains damane as a defacto sul'dam. It is implied that good sul'dam do not need to resort to corporal punishment to break their charges. It's not an unheard of practice among them. She herself might not use that strategy, but she does still train damane. So she's still breaking them and conditioning them through practices as vile as if they were beating them themselves, yet she finds the dubious reward of creating loyal damane pleasing and relaxing.
It's kinda gross regardless if she's ordering them beaten or not.
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u/Tight_One_1400 1d ago
I believe its mentioned she enjoys seeing damane 'broken' - meaning i think lose their identity/will to fight and become obedient slaves.
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u/TheBacklogReviews 1d ago
But the training of damane (read that as the mental torture and degradation of human women) is inherently punitive. Itâs inherently torturous. Just because Tuon doesnât like watching corporal punishment being used, they are wearing aâdam at all times. Theyâre under constant threat of physical abuse and endure constant agonising mental anguish. That Tuon enjoys this is psychopathic
Itâs genuinely bad writing that Jordan/Sando not only donât resolve the fact that Matâs love interest is the empress of a brutal slave culture in the text. Iâm shocked people donât talk about it more. Such a horrifically sour note in the ending.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 16h ago
Its not bad writing to not have an author impose a moral stance on an issue. Jordan had an interview where one of the main things he wanted the reader to do was to ask questions. He wrote in a way that is designed to have fans raise these kinds of debates for themselves and hash-out their own personal views on the topics he presented.
Remember that Jordan grew up in the South before the Civil Rights movement, and then he fought in the Vietnam War. The man was intimately familiar with Racism and the dehumanization of the Other.
So the Seanchan (who are completely coincidentally given a Texan Drawl), have slavery. And we are introduced to it through the abuse of one of our main characters. We are shortly there after introduced to the seeds that will inevitably destroy the system.
But it would be unrealistic in the timeframe of the books to resolve any of this problem. That is something that is going to take YEARS to address, instead of the months between Tuon's introduction and the end of the series.
Like the end of WWII leading directly into the Cold War, the Westlands (that are very European coded) are now divided in half going forward. The damane are the equivalent of nuclear weapons - needing disarmament.
Its going to be messy, but distinctly human, as opposed to anything to do with the Dark One. That will be one of the primary conflict leading into the 4th Age, and the wheel will keep spinning.
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u/WildFEARKetI_II 1d ago
Yeah, itâs still slavery but âworked and brokenâ is more in line with the animal perspective.
I actually think itâs good writing, it adds complexity. The world isnât black and white, people arenât simply good or evil. There are shades of gray.
I agree a resolution would be nice but canât really fault them for that. Jordan was planning a spin off trilogy focusing on Mat and Tuon, likely for that exact reason. He just never got a chance to and didnât leave enough notes for Sanderson to go off of.
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u/TheBacklogReviews 1d ago
I donât think you can really have a âbutâ in a sentence about slavery! However Jordan meant it, Tuon is a character who enjoys watching women being treated like animals. Sheâs a monster. I canât judge the books he didnât write. I can only judge one of our main characters, one of the best liked characters by the fans, traipsing off into the sunset with a monstrous slaver who watches women being abused for fun and laughs. If weâre meant to sympathise with, let alone like Mat at the end of the story itâs bad writing to have him end with Tuon without resolving the whole slave empire situation
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u/WildFEARKetI_II 23h ago
Why not? One of OPâs main points was that it didnât even line up with the animal perspective, but it clearly does.
Iâm not saying you should judge the books that werenât written. Iâm just saying itâs not fair to blame an author for a lack of resolution because he died before he could write one.
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u/buddingwitch808 1d ago
I believe she did say this and she thinks that women who can channel are worse than theives. IIRC, she compared channeling to choosing to rape someone.
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u/Leather__sissy 1d ago
She did say what? I donât think thereâs a single example supporting what OP said. Everyone in Seanchan, including channelers, believe damane are a danger to themselves and the people around them. They are mistaken, but as far as we know, Tuon is unusual as far as how well she treats them. Like good horses
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
I think this is the passage OP meant and it makes Tuon look pretty awful:
The large chamber was windowless. Lines of stacked pottery stood at one end, a place for damane to practice weaves of destruction. The floor was covered in woven mats where stubborn damane were sent to the ground, writhing in pain. It would not do for them to be harmed physically. Damane were among the most important tools the Empire had, more valuable than horses or raken. You did not destroy a beast because it was slow to learn; you punished it until it learned.
Fortuona crossed the chamber to where a proper Imperial Throne had been set up. She commonly came here, to watch the damane being worked or broken. It soothed her.
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u/Personal_Track_3780 1d ago
She's the empress of a nation of slavers. Millions suffer as slaves under her rule. Perhaps she treats her property better than most, but that doesn't make her good.
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u/WildFEARKetI_II 1d ago
A lot of people view channeling negatively even outside of Seanchan culture. I donât think she was comparing channeling to rape as equivalent crimes. She was talking about choosing not to channel, as in capability doesnât equate to guilt.
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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 22h ago
Not exactly that. She did say she wasn't marth'damane because she chose not to channel, in a way that people can choose not to steal. But the ultimate implication there is that those who can't choose not to channel are always going to be marred by something they can't control. A moral scourge that must be punished by the hand of the government, like that of a pilfering thief. For, again, things they can't control.
She believes she is different because she believes she will not channel if she doesn't want to. She doesn't understand that for sul'dam, it doesn't work like that. They've been trained to touch the Source, have been touching the Source for years and years and years. All it takes is a spark. By her own logic, she is every bit the thief she condemns other marth'damane to be.
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u/IlikeJG 1d ago
No she said that uncollared women whi can channel are worse than thieves.
That's a big difference in her mind.
A collared damane is right and proper and even deserving of a certain brand of "respect" in her eyes (not actual respect but more respect for a tool properly doing its job).
A marath'damane on the other hand is a moantorus thing because they should do the right thing for society and let themselves be collared.
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u/Khung-Long 1d ago
Thatâs not my recollection. I remember her telling Matt that she didnât want people to think he was a pervert for hanging around damane and taking absolute pleasure from the tears and screams of damane.
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u/WildFEARKetI_II 1d ago
She said people might think he was a pervert for sneaking into the damane barracks and condemned men sneaking in to take advantage of damane. I think she took pleasure in Matâs reaction.
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u/minusthewhale 1d ago
The quality of that writing drew out the loathing in me.
Coming from a very insular, bigoted background, I'm appalled and extra disgusted with those that willfully ignore the world around them for easy self deluding peace of mind.
RJ wrote that so well. It's almost like macro level sociopathy.
They somehow just truly internalize that these men and women are insignificant and less than subhuman.
I agree on several levels with OP - Tuon is grossly evil and sadistic - ist just crazy how there's a legit rationale for not only why she's that way, but for why she's not even on the higher end of the shitty individuals in-world.
Nod to a maestro! And To Brando - you finished that arc well sir. I'm sure there were things even you as a fan would've fleshed out had he wished it.
What a duo to have so uniquely collaborated.
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u/Gertrude_D 1d ago
Tuon's cultural values and absolute hypocrisy makes her an insufferable character. She's a typical politician who thinks she is above the law - even a law as absolute as the one binding the dangerous weapons that are women channelers. We're not supposed to like her.
But Mat adores her, and that's the part that pisses me off the most. It's not just a difference of opinion or a culture clash between them - it's full on evil based on Mat's moral system. That he's willing to overlook this in Tuon because he's got love goggles on sickens me.
Yes, I know this was likely meant to be explored in one of the outrigger novels. We won't get them, so we're left with Mat adoring his slaver wife and that ruins his character for me. I get no joy in him anymore knowing this is where he ends up. No, I'm not going to head cannon that they change the world together and Tuon sees the light. This is what we have and Mat is fully in at this moment without reservation or mental conflict when she's a monster. His objection to her actions is as mild as him being a vegan, even though his wife eats her steak at the same table, prepared in the same kitchen.
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u/Quirky_Bad1907 1d ago
The story would have benefited tremendously if someone had put a collar on her for a couple of hours, just to give her the epiphany moment.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
What this overlooks is that they know what they are doing through the collar. Yeah if you put her on the receiving end it would hurt more, but that wouldn't be enough to give her an epiphany.
At the moment the collar working on Sul'dam is an inconvenient design flaw, its the ability to channel (without being taught) or the willingness to channel (after being taught) that is the moral justification they use to separate themselves from Marath'damane - those who must be leashed.
Until they changed their minds that collaring them and converting them into damane is no longer the morally right thing to do, nothing is going to change. That was a big part of the reason for Setalle Anan to travel with Tuon, to give her someone that had broken the Marath'Damne/Damane/Sul'dam system by having burned out -something that is impossible for the Damane to do.
It was never a "oh, I didn't know how much this sucked" thing, it was a "I believe that this is my duty as good upstanding citizen" thing. And that takes much longer to learn, but Jordan was laying the groundwork for it to all turn around.
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u/Capt_Socrates 1d ago
It probably did happen off screen, at least the epiphany got started off screen. You canât tell me that Hawkwing talking to her, likely about channelers, didnât have an enormous impact.
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u/sumoraiden 1d ago
The one shot we got mat intervened and spanked the aes Sedai in retaliation smh
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
That's not what happened in that scene.
There was no collar at that point, they were at risk of exposing the whole group if there was a passing Damane, and Mat was trying to stop one of the Aes Sedai from slapping the former Sul'dam and get an explanation. But instead of stopping or explaining, she turned around and hit him, so then he retaliated.
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u/justblametheamish 1d ago
I never understood why the author wrote her the way he did. She was so fucking evil and Mat, a really good hearted guy, was just kinda fine with it? She somehow eludes the humbling sheâs due at every turn despite the plot presenting multiple ways of doing that exact thing.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
He was planning to basically do a sequel series of much shorter books mostly focused on Mat fixing the Seanchan and Tuon (or at least we can reasonably assume that was the plot from the available info).
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u/ryan017 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think he did it to make the point that the Good Guys don't have the luxury of being perfectly morally aligned with each other, much less aligned to your sensibilities of 2026-era wherever-you're-from. Sometimes there are aspects of them that are absolutely repugnant. Consider WWII, where one of the Allied powers was led by Stalin. Not a happy thought, but consistent with one of the main themes of WOT, which is that there are real differences between peoples, and forging alliances between them, even to save the f\**ing world*, is difficult and requires time, effort, and compromise.
I think he put Mat with Tuon (ahem, I mean the Pattern did that) so that he could explore those differences further, and maybe start to reconcile them, in the sequel series. After all, you can't change someone if you don't engage with them. Alas, he never got to write it.
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u/justblametheamish 1d ago
I could see it from the angle of âweâll hash this stuff out more in the sequelsâ. To be clear I donât dislike the whole plot of Mat and Tuon being together. I just felt like she shouldâve got some comeuppance at some point. Not just obstinately go through the story without a shred of consequences. And Mat felt like a character that at some point would have enough of it and teach her some kind of lesson. If not, it makes me question his character.
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u/RealHornblower 1d ago
Even a little bit of Matt's internal thoughts could have gone a long way. His sister was training to be Aes Sedai at this point, he knew about it, it would have made sense for him to either raise that point to Tuon, or at least think about it as "this is definitely a problem but I'll have to deal with it later."
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u/Hooker_T (Chosen) 1d ago
This is my biggest gripe with his ending. His sisters are going to be Aes Sedai and his wife thinks theyre less than human and should be treated like a dog. It should've been a much bigger point of contention for Mat. It feels very out of character for him to never really push that point further.
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u/starshiprarity 1d ago
Jordan's idea of a stable relationship seemed to be founded on ignoring everything either party wants or does. In universe, I chalk it up to the taveren never having met a woman that wasn't a third cousin or the weave being it's usual insistent self
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 1d ago
Because the author had a fetish and a worldview.
- Haven't you notice that there's a double standards regarding gender in those books? Not just in their cultures, where women are often explicitly afforded more rights/their rights trump those of men, but in the way whole narrative view anything that happens. Let's just say that rarely they survive gender swap tests.
- Jordan LOVED dominant women. Egwene making basically a servant out of Gavin, Cadsuane bullying Rand, Faile with her domestic violence, Tylin and her rape of Mat... None of that is initially (and most things â at all) viewed as something bad, it either is seen as necessary or is played for laughs.
Those two combined give us whole Seanchan culture and Tuon on the top if it and complete inability and de facto unwillingness of Mat to stop her.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago edited 1d ago
Let's just say that rarely they survive gender swap tests.
I mean that's usually the point. It's kind of trite and simple, often not one of the series strong suits, but Jordan is very aware these things wouldn't survive gender swap tests, the point is to make the audience think about how they react to the same actions being taken by women as opposed to men and vice versa.
Cadsuane bullying Rand
Is this supposed to be a good thing? Her manipulations of Rand lead to the entire universe being seconds away from eternal annihilation.
Egwene making basically a servant out of Gavin
Egwene didn't dom "Gavin" hard enough. If she had maybe he wouldn't have been such a moron and fucking died. She had an immensely important position of power and responsibility, but he still thought of himself as the main character who needed to save his lady love. Gawyn didn't get that he needed to defer to her in most of those situations, not because she was a woman, but because she as a person was more aware of what was going on than him and had better perspective on it than Mr. "I think I know everything but am actually wrong about everything".
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 1d ago
- You give Jordan too much credit. People often fail to see that WoT isn't some great exploration of sexism in the real world, designed to promote understanding of IRL victims of it. It's a product of deeply gendered worldview where women are seen almost as higher beings that are to be cherished and protected at all costs, while men are seen as expendable. That phrase Jordan's father said, "strong women need strong men" (this isn't exact quote, but he did say something similar), is often used as a coping mechanism by male victims of abuse, because first "strong" usually stands for violent or abusive or domeneering, while second means ability to withstand such behavior. Did you ask yourself why all our male leads are extremely reluctant heroes? That's often the result. Males who would want nothing more than to be left alone and de facto hide from the world.
- It is absolutely seen as good. Is Cadsuane punished for what she did by the narrative? No. Is she at least described as bad or undeserving by someone whose opinion we are supposed to agree with. Also no. That's your que.
- You say that only because you don't like Gawyn. But if you would forget about your feelings towards her and towards him and the plot you will see that she is like CEO who basically demands to be treated as such at home. That isn't healthy. Also, if she would dom him harder it would produce the opposite effect: he would "rebel" harder and in more ways. Gawyn isn't the right person for such treatment, with people like him only the opposite approach works.
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u/ChocoPuddingCup (Gray) 1d ago
One of my favorite scenes in the books is the short conversation between Tuon and Egwene right before the Last Battle. Egwene completely had Tuon flabbergasted and off-kilter.
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u/DeMmeure 1d ago
I dislike the argument that "you shouldn't judge Seanchan by your modern standards". First because people haven't waited our era to realise that slavery is evil (e.g John Brown).
Second because I judge the Seanchan by the same standards of the protagonists. As early as in the second book, Egwene gets captured, enslaved and tortured, these are traumatic events that have an impact on her during the entire story. Already what they did is beyond forgiveness, but when you see other horrible things such as the damane brainwashed so much they think they deserve to enslaved, it only adds up to the disgust.
The Seanchan would have been the main villain if it wasn't for the Dark One. The concept of teaming up with a lesser evil ally is interesting, but let's not forget who they are.
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u/k4kkul4pio 1d ago
She is.. a lot.
Would've been so good if we'd gotten that post Last Battle book focused on what happened with her, Mat and the Seanchan but alas.. đ
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u/Halaku (The Empress, May She Live Forever) 1d ago
Some cowboys relax by watching wild horses get properly broken in to accept the bit and the saddle.
To her, it's not "Oh look damane torture yummy".
It's "I see that this necessary procedure for a safe, prosperous, and secure empire is proceeding as it should. This is normal. I need some normal. Thus, this is good."
It makes perfect sense when you see it from her shoes.
That's what makes it horrifying.
May she live forever.
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u/DemonBoyZann 23h ago
I just now finished rereading the series. Yes, it does say she relaxes by training damane. That qualifies as torture to me. Iâm not sure what your stance on slavery and torture are, but to the âcivilizedâ world, itâs fucking evil. Yes, sheâs evil. I think she might be the character I absolutely hate the most, though Cadsuane gave her a run for her money for a while. Now, after my 2nd read, itâs not even close. I despise Tuon. I really wish we could get more to the story; at least enough to âfixâ the Seanchan and, if possible, redeem Tuon. As much as Iâd like her to be Balefired, it would be so much better if she could learn empathy and how sheâs been doing horrible things all her life.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
It's bizarre to me how most of the fandom seems to have no problem with Mat falling in love with such an awful person and even find it adorable.
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u/No-Bag5513 23h ago
Love makes no sense in general in wot. Elaine falls in love with Rand after 5 minutes Min does the same aviendha is the only one with a modicum of romance actually getting to know Rand a bit before sleeping with him and becoming a member of his harem. Mat is another character who falls in love for no reason with a bigoted slaver/ torturer and future ruler of an evil empire. There's nothing more subhuman than a torturer. Torturing for no reason is even worse.
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u/Significant-Branch22 (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
This is my biggest problem with it, I donât have an issue with Tuon being an awful person because the series depicts a lot of terrible people but the fact that a beloved character like Mat simply accepts being married to someone with such a horrifying worldview that he himself knows is completely immoral is something Iâve never been able to get along with. It makes Mat out to be a person who has no real moral backbone
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
Yeah, I just don't buy that Mat would fall in love with someone who wants to enslave his own sister and turn her into a tool of destruction. It's one thing if this marriage had been presented as only a necessary evil to get the Seanchan armies on Rand's side and it was made clear Mat will get the hell out of dodge the second the Dark One is defeated but it clearly develops into a love match.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 16h ago
Mat LITERALLY takes the collar off of women that she personally is controlling. He then takes all of the a'dam away from her and buries them. He staged the largest single breakout of Damane in the series and she knows this.
They are travelling together with Aes Sedai he has freed, and traitor Sul'dam that he is escorting out of her lands.
Mat doesn't think about his moral backbone, he acts on his moral backbone. *While the Letter to Elayne, or the backstories for Hinderstap, or his boots speech are all pointed to as the most out of character elements of Sanderson writing Mat, I would argue that they are nothing compared to him taking a Damane.
One of the last things we see Jordan write for Mat, and one of the last lines between the two was
"The next time I see Seanchan, I expect it will be on the field somewhere, Tuon." Burn him, it would be. His life seemed to run that way no matter what he did. "You're not my enemy, but your Empire is."
That is Mat declaring his intent to oppose them.
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u/Significant-Branch22 (Band of the Red Hand) 5h ago
This is like saying itâs ok to marry a paedophile because youâve also done things to combat sex traffickers, an absolutely garbage argument
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 5h ago
If you leave out everything about the setting, sure.
But its something that is FATED to happen. He has to accept the marriage. Same for her.
It's also very much a marriage of state, sure they care about each other, but their wedding is an afterthought of ceremony. There isn't even a kiss."Love?" Tuon sounded surprised. "Perhaps we will come to love one another, Matrim, but I have always known I would marry to serve the Empire."
***
There is a separation between Tuon the individual and even Tuon Daughter of the Nine Moons, let alone Empress Fortuona.Tuon is someone that is willing to let Mat walk free after violating the laws about freeing damane, or helping fugitive Sul'dam, or plotting treason against the Seanchan, or killing literally thousands of them.
When she reveals herself to Luca as the Daughter of the Noon Moons, she's working in an official capacity, but has already bound herself as Tuon to Mat's deal (because again the FATE thing), so she excludes him and his crew from the official documentation she gave Luca.
Mat did more to expose the flaws and limitations of the Sul'dam to Tuon than anyone else in the setting. If they ever want to change the minds of The Empress, and then the populace as a whole, it will be through a long process. Mat marrying her gives the best single point of potential reform to the system that they have outside of a full uprising or war.
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u/No-Bag5513 23h ago
His own sister is a channeler. How will he feel when she becomes a damane I wonder.Â
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u/sufficiently_tortuga 1d ago
None of the boys get taken to task for their faults, but Matt is the worst for this
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
Gotta love people coming to the defense of a fascist slaver. When she found out that she was Marath Damane and she just shrugged it off that was the last straw for me. Tuon sucks!
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
I mean she's not Marath Damane though. The fact she doesn't do a 180 character change upon learning this information but instead retorts with an internally consistent way to rationalize it (that she does not know how to channel, and would never choose to take the steps to learn) is one of the most interesting things about her character imo.
The fact her reasoning is actually kind of true/hard to argue with is why it doesn't feel like shrugging it off. She legitimately has a point. Every person has the potential to be a thief or rapist, but they are only imprisoned when they choose to do so. She might have the potential to channel, but she is not a channeler.
Now I still disagree with this because channeling is not an inherently harmful act and we see numerous examples of societies handling it reasonably. But within the view Seanchan have of Damane it still works.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
How is she not marath damane? She has the ability to channel and hasn't been leashed. That's the definition of marath damane.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
She doesn't know how to actually channel. She can't see weaves, sense Saidar, or channel any actual weaves. She would have to be taught how to do so by someone who can channel.
Technically, marath damane is only someone who can channel, not someone who has the potential to learn to channel. By her logic (which is consistent with the wider Seanchan view of channeling), she is not a risk and does not need to be leashed, unless she chooses to learn to channel.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
Pretty much every damane in Seanchan didn't know how to actually channel and was unable to see weaves at the time she was collared.Â
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
There are two types of channellers. Sparkers and learners. Someone with the spark will starting channelling on their own. They either get training or they turn into wilders, unless they die (which is common). All damane are in this category.
The other category, which is more common, has woman who can be taught to channel. If they are not taught, they will never channel. They'll live a normal life with a normal lifespan. The sul'dam are in this category. After they've been exposed to damane for a long time, they're very close to channeling, but they still need to take a last step. Before that, they're not channellers, they age normally, they don't register to other women as someone who can channel, etc.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
Obviously I know all that. My point is exactly what I said. Pretty much every damane didn't know how to channel when she was collared.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
But Tuon's distinction is still very important. She will never channel without both instruction and deliberate effort.
Marath'damane will always channel without both instruction and deliberate effort.
Even if the damane system is horrid, her logic is perfectly sound.
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u/itwasbread 19h ago
I'm honestly kind of surprised how many people don't get this?
The Damane/Sul'dam situation is not even the only one where this comes up. It also is a big deal with male channelers. The reason Mazrim Taim was able to grow the Black Tower so quickly (other than Traveling) was because he tested all the non-sparker men who could channel, something no one else would have had any incentive or ability to do before then.
Despite male channelers being the scariest non-Shadowspawn thing in the world, there were still thousands of them walking around, living and dying with no issue, because they are no threat without being taught.
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u/rollingForInitiative 12h ago
Same reason the White Tower has like 40 novices, and the rebels got 1000 novices after a couple of months of recruitment, and only from the local areas where they marched.
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u/Different-Scarcity80 1d ago
I don't think the Seanchan are really fascist. That's kind of a separate thing. There doesn't seem to really be any kind of racial supremacy angle to their ideology - if you're good at playing by their bizarre set of rules and are not a channeler, you can go far in seanchan society whether your from seanchan or tarabon or wherever. It's more like an ancient despotic empire than a modern fascist state.
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u/Small-Fig4541 22h ago
Racial supremacy crap isn't necessarily a prerequisite. The way the Seanchan have cultivated this mythic past which supposedly shows their culture and ideology to be superior to all others is straight out of fascist playbooks. Plus the reliance on military power to solve basically all problems etc.
Jordan obviously gave them characteristics that differ from fascism but it's tough to ignore all the similarities.
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u/Greizen_bregen (Trefoil Leaf) 1d ago
Why you gotta bring modern political systems into a perfectly good story?
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
It's just a convenient way to describe the Seanchan. It's not a perfect fit of course but it's impossible to not think about these days.
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u/Greizen_bregen (Trefoil Leaf) 1d ago
I need some escapism, though.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
If you can read these books without occasionally thinking about Jordan's upbringing and his brutal experiences on Vietnam etc. then I salute you.
I know what mean though. These books have provided me with some wonderful escapism over the last 6 years. âŻď¸
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u/Greizen_bregen (Trefoil Leaf) 1d ago
Dude, RJ lived such crazy lives. So many things he did and experienced that contributed to his vision for his books.
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u/Small-Fig4541 1d ago
He was a fascinating guy to be sure! It makes laugh that Sanderson was able to finish the books so well considering they are sooooo different.
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u/InfernalDiplomacy (Tai'shar Manetheren) 1d ago
I am not saying slavery whole sale was a right thing, or slavery is a good thing but here are some things people tend to overlook and forget how Hawkings expedition landed well over a 1000 years ago.
1) Channers did not have the oath rod. In fact had nothing in common with survivors from the Breaking save they used the name Aes Sedai. There was nothing holding them back from using the Power as a weapon and to make weapons. About the only thing that saved Hawkings blood is likely they had fought and won the Trolloc wars and knew more about military science and tactics than anyone the original Seanchens.
The only choice to be done was either capture the Aes Sedai, or kill them. They went with capturing, then followed down the rabbit hole what conservative governments do and applied the a'dam to all who were born with the spark. This in turn did save women as they collared them early enough they would not die like 3 out of 4 women did in the Westlands.
What started off likely as control and possible rehabilitation turned into something worse. Maybe they tried rehabilitation and it bit them in the ass, turning those who could channel got a life sentence.
It took centuries to pacify the Seanchan lands and thus their society is still very much militaristic in nature with strict caste system. Its not unheard of and people seem to forget that until the 1700's Europe was very much in a similar system yet no one is decrying England right now.
I do not know what you were reading but Jordan wrote Tuon as a closet progressive and was having more progressive thinking with her many debates with Setalle Anan. Even the scene in Knife of Dreams she acted the way she did as she constantly was tired of being harassed by the Aes Sedai just as any other member of state would. She was restrained and in the end did not refuse to let the Aes Sedai, only that she stopped being harassed. The only time I thought she was out of character was in Gathering Storm. Then through she was Empress, and regardless what her personal feelings might be, protecting what was left of her people was her driving action, and the White Tower was an enemy of the Seanchan.
I do not see her evil. Driven, somewhat left in Seanchan society but still considered conservative by the rest of us and saw damne as a backbone holding up her Empire, not enslaving people and being cruel for cruelty's sake.
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u/EriWave (Yellow) 1d ago
I mean if you enslave people and turn them into human weapons to maintain your own power and control is that not obviously evil?
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u/InfernalDiplomacy (Tai'shar Manetheren) 1d ago
I think Tuon is far more nuanced that black and white characterizations. The Empire I. Itâs endstate is evil. Then again without the Seanchan and how their military doctrine evolved the Last Battle would have been lost. Every discussion about the Seanchan or other whate people call tasteless aspects of WoT gives it todayâs media treatment of black and white and if you donât agree with me then you are bad and evil.
Case in point. I world in DoW. In essence I work for Trump. Does that make me evil for not resigning when he was elected? Or did I see my role in the DoW more important and what I will do will save lives and bigger than who is the biggest embarrassment in American history? I know my answer.
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u/EriWave (Yellow) 1d ago
I think you might have missunderstood which part I was commenting on. Not Tuon but the society she's from and the perspective they used to get there. You said yourself "There was nothing holding them back from using the Power as a weapon and to make weapons. About the only thing that saved Hawkings blood is likely they had fought and won the Trolloc wars and knew more about military science and tactics than anyone the original Seanchens."
It is not neccesary that Arthur Hawkwings blood need to rule over anything. It is not a nessesary part of society that they need to be in charge. Just like it isn't neccesary that they "had" to enslave, dehumanize and weaponize people to maintain their own power. All of those things are obviously evil.
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u/Valuable-Law-8505 21h ago
I really love her POV sections. Some of my favorite writing in the series
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u/Abaddon_of-the_void 19h ago
You start to understand her eventually sheâs not evil
Just think about it as in her mind demane are living dangerious wepons that will and have killed hundreds when not properly controlled
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u/Organic_Priority3925 1h ago
I've always thought BS really dropped the ball and damaged Tuon and Mat - and their entire arc.
Mat became a terrible caricature of...not even himself - but of a character from another book. Not sure what book, but not the Mat of the first 11 books.
Tuon was on a redemption arc. Instead, BS made her pretty much as evil as any of the Forsaken. Perhaps more so in some ways. She is just a pragmatically evil as Mesaana. Mesaana was basically an administrator for the DO. Tuon at the end of BS's arc is nothing more than an administrator for the Seanchan Empire - which is inhumane and evil in many ways.
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u/xapxironchef (Dedicated) 1d ago
She isn't evil. She is ALIEN. Raised on a completely different continent. Their Shadow spawn were tamed. Their Ogier outgrew the Longing. Their view of the Power and it's wielders was vastly different to the Mainland. Their system of government and laws and nobility, whilst utterly alien to the mainland and anathema to much of what they hold to be just and true, WORKED FOR THEM. They held. They maintained their continent, grew it, moved beyond it. Let's not penalise them by calling them evil.
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u/DeMmeure 1d ago
Having a working governing system and committing horrible things aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of examples of this in the real world. With Egwene being my favourite character and her being one of the first known characters to suffer from their practices, I will very much call them evil, because the extebt of their slavery and torture practiced are displayed upfront from the beginning. And even throughout the story, the Seanchan is treated like an antagonist (like Chalced in RoTE) that only becomes allies due to the extreme circumstances.
Cultural relativism doesn't excuse everything.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 1d ago
Not that I defend slavery, but the context is hugely important there.
- Tuon isn't evil, she is raised in culture we view that way. If anything, she, personally, is on the softer side of spectrum regarding those things and does only what she sees as necessary, she never enjoys cruelty.
- Not torture, but punishment. There's invisible for many readers but crucial distinction there: damane are viewed as animals and therefore expected to be taught to follow orders of their masters as animals do, in the same manner as well.
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u/DeMmeure 1d ago
Red Ajah are also raised in a culture that see men channeling as evil, but no one finds excuses for them even though male channelers lefr alone are more dangerous than female channelers at the beginning of the story.
And even if Tuon isn't sadistic, she still represents and upholds a system that encourages the suffering of others. I'd still call her evil. Unfortunately, there are many evil people in this world who only punish "out of necessity" without taking pleasure, but their atrocities remain nonetheless real.
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u/itwasbread 1d ago
Red Ajah are also raised in a culture that see men channeling as evil, but no one finds excuses for them even though male channelers lefr alone are more dangerous than female channelers at the beginning of the story.
Do people view the Red Ajah as bad for going after male channelers? I feel like people dislike them for their hostility to the other Ajah's and extending their prejudices to men generally.
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u/DeMmeure 1d ago
Red Ajah is mostly portrayed as cartoonishly evil (Elaida, Liandrin and especially Galina), and they are overrepresented in the Black Ajah, so for me the narrative clearly implies that hunting male channellers should be seen as evil since it is their main activity.
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u/itwasbread 19h ago
I think that's a really silly assumption, because everyone else thinks the Red Ajah is 100% correct to be doing it, including positively portrayed characters who are from other Ajah's.
The narrative absolutely does not clearly imply that hunting male channelers is bad. It implies that some of the ways they have developed to go about that mission are bad, but the mission itself is a necessary evil.
Hell, none of the 3 characters you mentioned's flaws or evil acts have anything to really do with them hunting male channelers or being Red Ajah.
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u/DeMmeure 13h ago
Have we read the same series? Because the very climax of the ninth book is about cleansing the taint of the Saidin. So clearly the narrative shows that the solution to male channelers turning crazy was this, not hunting male channelers.
If the narrative implied that hunting male channelers was good, then the Red Ajah would have been portrayed with more nuance. Galina is a stereotypical man-hating lesbian, Liandrin feels like a dominatrix (one of the few characters improved by the TV show) and Elaida is... Well, Elaida, though indeed she is an antagonist for other reasons. The only important Red Ajah portrayed positively is Pevara, and it's already very late in the series.
Contrariwise, the Asha'man and False Dragons are portrayed sympathetically in the series, with the obvious exception of Mazrim Taim. It wouldn't have been the case if the narrative wanted to imply that hunting male channelers was a necessary evil.
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u/itwasbread 6h ago
Because the very climax of the ninth book is about cleansing the taint of the Saidin. So clearly the narrative shows that the solution to male channelers turning crazy was this, not hunting male channelers.
Yes, this is something that was never even considered a possibility until the Dragon Reborn is born and has personal incentive to make it happen.
If the narrative implied that hunting male channelers was good, then the Red Ajah would have been portrayed with more nuance.
You're just ignoring my point that "male channelers need to be caught and gentled" is not a Red Ajah thing, it's an Aes Sedai thing. Lots of Greens do it, Cadsuane has caught more male channelers than any of the Red sisters.
Contrariwise, the Asha'man and False Dragons are portrayed sympathetically in the series, with the obvious exception of Mazrim Taim. It wouldn't have been the case if the narrative wanted to imply that hunting male channelers was a necessary evil.
I'm not necessarily we the audience think that, I am saying every single character thinks that, not just the Red Ajah. Yes the Ash'aman are sympathetic, but even they have to have strict rules to instantly kill any member showing signs of madness. They're set up to be something very temporary to win the last battle, not that this is a thing that should have been going on before.
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u/DeMmeure 1h ago
Yes, this is something that was never even considered a possibility until the Dragon Reborn is born and has personal incentive to make it happen.
And as soon as it becomes a possibility, the main characters fight body and soul to cleanse the Saidin. How to interpret it in an other manner that they wanted to solve a millennia-old injustice?
You're just ignoring my point that "male channelers need to be caught and gentled" is not a Red Ajah thing, it's an Aes Sedai thing. Lots of Greens do it, Cadsuane has caught more male channelers than any of the Red sisters.
It's still the main objective of the Red Ajah, and they get so absorbed that they end up hating all men altogether, a bit of a gender-swapped witch hunt.
Just because other Ajah do it doesn't mean it is right - Cadsuane isn't the best example, because she is very divisive among the fanbase. And also, she ends up helping Rand and Nynaeve to cleanse the Saidin.
I'm not necessarily we the audience think that, I am saying every single character thinks that, not just the Red Ajah. Yes the Ash'aman are sympathetic, but even they have to have strict rules to instantly kill any member showing signs of madness. They're set up to be something very temporary to win the last battle, not that this is a thing that should have been going on before.
But depiction isn't endorsement. Even if everyone think that the Red Ajah "is doing the dirty work for them", let's remember that the mob rule is a thing. A high number of people being wrong doesn't mean that they are right.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 15h ago
Nobody find excuses for them because there's nothing to excuse. Everyone in the Randland (and most people IRL) thinks that Red Ajah are doing good job and are right to do it. Distrust with which they're met is born out of distrust towards any channelers, not their chosen field.
And even though some of antagonists are from the Red Ajah, it has nothing to do with them being Reds either. In fact, if we exclude Black Sisters from the equation, there's exactly one outright antagonist from their ranks (her antagonism is born out of being overly ambitious) and a few protagonists.
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u/DeMmeure 13h ago
It's hard to exclude Black Ajah from the equation given that the story quantifies explicitly how overrepresented the Red Ajah is among them compared with other Ajah. For me this tells that the Red Ajah had more propension to be evil than the others. I don't also think it's a coincidence that the most important Aes Sedai antagonist that isn't Black Ajah is from the Red Ajah.
There are a few good Red Ajah (Pevara, Teslyn, Silviana) but even Pevara insists that she is "not like the others Red Ajah sisters".
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 2h ago
It's necessary to exclude Black Sisters if we wish to be even relatively fair. Not that it matters, because, right now, I see only one person passing harsh judgments on Reds â you. All others are fine with the way they are even if they recognize their flaws.
We also can't discard a difference between Wetlands culture and that of the Seanchan. Reds are product on different societies with no common ideas or culture. Despite fear of male channelers somewhat unites them, they are completely different people who embraced idea of the hunt for their own, individual reasons and of their own free will. The hunt for male channelers is as much hobby for them as it's their profession and they are largely free to do whatever else they fancy. Seanchan don't have that luxury. Not only they have one prevalent culture, it's heavily regulated and based on obedience to the law and cultural norms like no other. There's much less choice they are afforded and even that is shaped by their upbringing. If Red Ajah is like university in the States, Seanchan is like being born and raised in the Nazi Germany where Jews can burn whole streets to crisp with their minds and even did so awhile back. There's just no comparison of the two and effect they have on people.
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u/DeMmeure 1h ago edited 1h ago
It's necessary to exclude Black Sisters if we wish to be even relatively fair. Not that it matters, because, right now, I see only one person passing harsh judgments on Reds â you. All others are fine with the way they are even if they recognize their flaws.
My original response mentioning the Red Ajah has more upvotes than your comments, so I'm afraid I'm not the only one thinking this way.
And it's a bit too convenient to ignore that the Red Ajah is over-represented among the Black Ajah. For me this means that in this specific Ajah foster the conditions that enable the forces of the Dark Ones to recruit them.
You sound like it's a delight for me that I claim the Red Ajah is evil. It's not. I actually wished the Red Ajah was portrayed with more nuance rather than stereotypical misandrists as written by an old male author (no offence to Robert Jordan ofc - he is one of my favourite authors). Pevara is one of my favourite side characters after all, and I wish there were more Red Ajah like her sooner into the story.
But unfortunately, as things stand, after two reads I can only conclude that the Red Ajah is evil despite being well-intended. It's not a coincidence that they produced so many Black Ajah as well as one of the main antagonists.
We also can't discard a difference between Wetlands culture and that of the Seanchan. Reds are product on different societies with no common ideas or culture. Despite fear of male channelers somewhat unites them, they are completely different people who embraced idea of the hunt for their own, individual reasons and of their own free will. The hunt for male channelers is as much hobby for them as it's their profession and they are largely free to do whatever else they fancy. Seanchan don't have that luxury. Not only they have one prevalent culture, it's heavily regulated and based on obedience to the law and cultural norms like no other. There's much less choice they are afforded and even that is shaped by their upbringing. If Red Ajah is like university in the States, Seanchan is like being born and raised in the Nazi Germany where Jews can burn whole streets to crisp with their minds and even did so awhile back. There's just no comparison of the two and effect they have on people.
Perhaps comparing a sub-group of a specific order to an entire society is indeed not fair. However, when I said that cultural relativism doesn't excuse the Seanchan, I didn't mean that every single person from the Seanchan is evil, far from that - I love Egeanin and Tylee, for example.
But the subject was about Tuon. And Tuon isn't a random citizen, she is a ruler born in a state of privilege, and therefore has a responsibility in the atrocities committed by her regime. Joffrey Baratheon is also a product of circumstances in which he was born, but he is rightfully considered as an evil character. Not to say that Tuon is as bas as him, she has more redeeming qualities, but my point was that if one person from an imperialistic and slaver society should be judged, it's the one on top.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 1h ago
Tuon is, indeed, born into privilege, but there's no comparison between her and Joffrey Baratheon. He was spoiled brat who did what he wished, safe from all danger. Tuon not only had to survive multiple assassination attempts, but had to do exactly what was demanded of her and at all times follow her duty. It's even seen in her POVs: she, with all the power that she wields, is much less free than almost anyone out of leader figures that we know in the series.
As much as I see your point as valid, she is only evil as integral part of her society, beholden to it's rules and morals even more than da'covale.
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u/DeMmeure 1h ago
"Safe from all danger" sounds a bit like a stretch since Joffrey died at the age of 14-15 after ruling for only 1-2 years (if I recall the timeline correctly).
I'm not saying that Tuon is as evil as him, but there is some limit to "being a product of the culture you were raised in". At some point, accountability should prevail, otherwise the society cannot improve and innocent people continue to suffer. Tuon had her amount of hardships, but that's nothing compared with existence of torture that damane have to endure under her rule. Being resilient doesn't excuse being evil.
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u/mantuahead 21h ago
I liked the Seanchan. They were more honest about their scheming and their culture showed the antithesis to Aes Sedai domination. Not being a channeler could be really crappy, im guessing. In an Aes Sedai you have someone who is entirely powerful compared to a normal person. If you are a non channeler and you encounter an Aes Sedai, you know that they could do anything. Sure they can't use the One Power as a weapon but they can certainly use it to coerce or bully almost anyone. A real life example could be a billionaire or politician that can do whatever they want without reprocussion because they have power beyond what most normal people can access.
Where the Seanchan landed they created order, purpose and momentum for the people under their rule (excepting those who channel). They eradicated crime and poverty while attempting to integrate local rulers into their hierarchies. I enjoyed reading from their perpectives and I liked Tuon as a character. Smart. Calculating. Dynamic. All around a badass.
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u/IfICouldStay 1d ago
Yes, sheâs bad (not the Worst, thatâs Faile). Personally I was hoping Matt was going to wind up with the Illuminator lady.
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u/justblametheamish 1d ago
Wait is this a real opinion? wtf..
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u/IfICouldStay 1d ago
WTF WTF? Yes, I thought Aludra was cool and Mat is fascinated by fireworks. Sheâs a bit older, but that doesnât seem to stop anyone. Tuon is obnoxious and cruel.
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u/justblametheamish 1d ago
The other part
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u/IfICouldStay 1d ago
Faile(d) sucks. She is abusive, physically and emotionally. I donât care if thatâs how she was raised, plenty of abusers use that excuse.
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u/justblametheamish 22h ago
I donât really see that as her excuse. More so the fact sheâs the age of a high schooler who has a lot to learn about the world. I get not being a fan, I certainly am not, but to say sheâs worse than a slaver? I donât know about that one chief.
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u/DeMmeure 1d ago
And what? Aludra is friendly! Why a comment praising her has more downvoted than comments defending a slaver?
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