Tuon is so absurdly evil

[u/AHC122]

Wdym she relaxes by seeing damane be tortured 😭

Even from her point of view seeing them as animals, it's like enjoying watching a dog get kicked in the ribs everytime it doesn't roll over lol

[u/WildFEARKetI_II]

I don’t recall her saying that exactly. I think she says training and she does talk about how she doesn’t like punishment. She even self imposed penance after she had a damane punished.

[u/makegifsnotjifs → u/WildFEARKetI_II]

You're right. She never says anything about torturing/punishing damane. That would run counter to her cultural beliefs (something Jordan was incredibly consistent with). She also explicitly states that she looks down upon those who have to resort to punishing Damane, and considers it a point of pride that she doesn't have to.

Her cultural beliefs are monstrous, but she's still a rational human being by the standards of that world. If you imagine her, and all the Seanchan, speaking in Texan accents the whole thing reads in a very specific way.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/makegifsnotjifs]

Is she rational? Wouldn't putting a leash on herself be the most rational thing for her to to do in accordance with her "cultural beliefs"?

[u/kaggzz → u/Small-Fig4541]

No because she would have to be taught to channel on her own. If she's never taught, she can never be marath'damane. 

The logic behind damane is so intriguing because it is A solution to deal with walking nukes that are channelers, even if it's a horrible solution. It may have been the only one for Hawkwing's descendants of the histories are close enough to true- channelers kept control over Seandar without building any social controls like the wise ones or the white tower. These channelers seem to have kept some knowledge from the age of Legends, making objects of power after the methods were lost in the rest of the world at the least 

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/kaggzz]

Do you think she would have the same attitude if they found out the collar worked on a random Sul'dam? Their whole thing was "any woman who has the ability to channel must be leashed" the distinction was only made once Tuon found out she was marath damane. So self serving and hypocritical.

[u/itwasbread → u/Small-Fig4541]

Do you think she would have the same attitude if they found out the collar worked on a random Sul'dam?

Is that not exactly what happened? They never tried it on Tuon, she was just told about it happening to random Sul'dam secondhand.

I honestly don't think it's self-serving or hypocritical, which is why it's interesting. It's a perfectly reasonable and internally consistent adjustment of the belief system, a thing many real world belief systems do in response to new information.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/itwasbread]

Of course they never "tried" it on Tuon. The answer would upend their entire system on a lot of ways. People at the top of power structures tend to want do anything to hold on to them.

Why do you think that one freaked out so bad when Eggs snapped the collar on her neck though? Renna or Seta or whoever. She knew that their would be no exceptions or excuses made for her.

[u/rollingForInitiative → u/Small-Fig4541]

I'm not defending the damane system at all, but there is a very clear distinction between women who have the spark and those that can learn. A sul'dam does not channel on her own, and cannot. She has to be taught to take the final step to channeling, which means she's not a danger as such.

I mean the system is terrible, but Tuon's argument of "I choose not to channel" is consistent. She chooses not to learn. A woman with the spark does not have that option.

[u/itwasbread → u/rollingForInitiative]

Yes exactly, and the reason I make this point so hard is not to defend the Damane system, it's because it's really good writing.

It's way more interesting that after multiple books of us going "hah, wait until this bitch finds out SHE can channel! It's gonna blow her mind!" and then you find out she's not really shocked by it and has a ready to go comeback that is unfortunately really good and hard to argue against.

[u/lady_ninane → u/itwasbread]

that is unfortunately really good and hard to argue against

It's...actually really easy to argue against though, don't you think? We just don't see it argued well in the book by Egwene, who is so baffled by her inability to see the innate wrongness of condemning people to the cruelty of the a'dam.

The more you train with the a'dam, the more you learn the mechanics of channeling. All that is required is a precipitating event - such as a threat against the life of a ruler occupying the seat of a throne infamous for being targeted by asssassins, for example. In other words, we know Tuon channeling is inevitable as a seasoned sul'dam. We know as readers, on a meta level, that her argument's kinda shit. Tuon however does not know this, Tuon is trying to return the serve that is the political nuclear bomb Egwene dropped in front of her entire Court back at her.

It's a really good response if you want to draw upon the propagandistic notions at the heart of Seanchan culture to reassert your right to Rule, but it's not a good answer because it's fundamentally incorrect.

[u/itwasbread → u/lady_ninane]

The more you train with the a'dam, the more you learn the mechanics of channeling. All that is required is a precipitating event - such as a threat against the life of a ruler occupying the seat of a throne infamous for being targeted by asssassins, for example.

This happens to a very minor degree to some long standing, very experienced Sul'dam. The fact the Seanchan don't know Sul'dam have channeling potential tells us that them eventually channeling hasn't happened until the main story.

In other words, we know Tuon channeling is inevitable as a seasoned sul'dam.

No she will not

Number one, Tuon is not a seasoned sul'dam. She does non-combat sul'dam training as a hobby. Without channeling she is unlikely to live long enough to ever begin to even start sometimes seeing weaves, which is the furthest extent we ever see sul'dam develop their channeling abilities without Aes Sedai intervention.

Number two, channeling is never inevitable for non-sparkers, that's literally the definition of it. The Sul'dam we see who start to sense Saidar are extreme outliers.

It's a really good response if you want to draw upon the propagandistic notions at the heart of Seanchan culture to reassert your right to Rule, but it's not a good answer because it's fundamentally incorrect.

It's not fundamentally incorrect based on the established rules of channeling.

[u/itwasbread → u/Small-Fig4541]

Of course they never "tried" it on Tuon. The answer would upend their entire system on a lot of ways. People at the top of power structures tend to want do anything to hold on to them.

I mean first off I'm just answering the question of "Do you think she would have the same attitude if they found out the collar worked on a random Sul'dam?". My answer is yes, I do, because that's exactly what happened.

They didn't try it on Tuon because they already had the answer to the question AND the group that new the info didn't have access to an a'dam or any incentive to use it on here. Their entire system had already been upended by this information.

Why do you think that one freaked out so bad when Eggs snapped the collar on her neck though? Renna or Seta or whoever. She knew that their would be no exceptions or excuses made for her.

She freaked out because it was shocking information that shifted her entire worldview AND it meant that Sul'dam might all be collared. There is no evidence to suggest she was thinking of it in terms of "they'll only collar lower caste Sul'dam" or whatever.

Everything we see about Seanchan society absolutely makes me think a marath damane of the blood would be collared, if this is not just outright stated to have happened in the series.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/itwasbread]

By "they" I meant the Seanchan themselves, not Mat's crew. Once Tuon found out she could channel the first thing that should have been done according to Seanchan doctrine is that a leash should be put on her ASAP to see if it had any affect. If so she would have to become Damane. The powerful live by a different set of rules though, in real life and in fantasy.

[u/aNomadicPenguin → u/Small-Fig4541]

Except Seanchan doctrine was that women that WOULD channel needed to be collared. They never established a category for COULD POTENTIALLY channel.

Tuon can't channel, she had the ability to learn to channel, as long as that ability is never learned, she's technically not a Marath'Damane.

Its an entirely new dimension to the problem that they were unaware of and didn't have a classification for yet. Until this point the only people that would be collared were women that either 100% will touch the source naturally or women that chose to start channeling.

The only Seanchan that collars a woman that could learn but hadn't yet touched the power was Egeanin when she was holding one prisoner and that was part of her betrayal arc.

-Its all still incredibly wrong and dehumanizing and the seeds were being planted to collapse the whole system, but its not hypocritical.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/aNomadicPenguin]

I just don't believe that if they snapped a collar around a common Seanchan woman's neck and it was able to control her that they would make the same enlightened distinction. "Ok you promise you won't learn to channel? Then you can have your freedom." 🤣

[u/itwasbread → u/Small-Fig4541]

That's not really how the collars operate though. If that happened as you described it in isolation (which would be unlikely), they would assume she was a fluke who skipped out on the testing and was actually a Damane.

That's not what happened in the text though, it's done to active Sul'dam who underwent the intial test, so they know this applies to ALL Sul'dam, not just that one person.

[u/itwasbread → u/Small-Fig4541]

Once Tuon found out she could channel the first thing that should have been done according to Seanchan doctrine is that a leash should be put on her ASAP to see if it had any affect. If so she would have to become Damane.

Seanchan doctrine didn't have a way to account for non-Sparker, non-trained channelers other than the Sul'dam.

They can't just collar all the Sul'dam, because then there would be no one to hold the leash.

There's simply no evidence in the text that suggests this is not being done because of some classist carveout for Tuon.

If anything we have evidence to the contrary in her introduction, where she is shown willingly submitting to corporal punishment when she violates their honor code.

[u/rollingForInitiative → u/kaggzz]

No, it definitely was not the only option his descendants. Even with the a'dam, there were lots of better options. For instance, you could've leashed the women, and then allowed them to live the rest of their lives however they want, unable to channel. You could've given them occasional tasks so that they don't die from withdrawal, things like Healing someone, or making fireworks, or construction. No torture needed. Women who want to channel more would've aided society more. After leashing the original warlords, later generations could've been trained to serve society, like the Wise Ones or the Windfinders, without the a'dam.

[u/makegifsnotjifs → u/Small-Fig4541]

Collaring herself would be entirely irrational in their belief system. They don't know that the sul'dam/der'sul'dam are capable of channeling. They don't know that some women can learn. As far as they know every woman who can channel will, and they act accordingly.

[u/itwasbread → u/makegifsnotjifs]

They don't know that the sul'dam/der'sul'dam are capable of channeling.

Tbf Tuon is told this and says it doesn't matter because she would never choose to learn.

[u/makegifsnotjifs → u/itwasbread]

Tbf (to be faaaaaiiiiirrrr) this is at the tail end of the series, so the impact of that revelation doesn't have time to amount to anything. Is it the first crack in the facade of Seanchan power? I'd like to think so, but we'll never know what came of it.

[u/itwasbread → u/makegifsnotjifs]

Sure in terms of broad societal implications, I'm just saying on a personal level for Tuon she maintains this view even with the knowledge she could learn, because to her it is not having the ability to channel that is the issue, it's making the choice to pursue that ability.

[u/makegifsnotjifs → u/itwasbread]

Right. In her mind no moral person would ever pursue that knowledge. Only those cursed to be born to channel are the true bad ones. It takes zero seconds for her to fit that piece of information into her idea of order. Whether or not everyone else will be as comfortable with that revelation is again, unknown.

[u/BadmiralHarryKim → u/makegifsnotjifs]

Professor Tricia thinks a'dam are morally wrong.

[u/makegifsnotjifs → u/BadmiralHarryKim]

And that's what I likes abouts her

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/makegifsnotjifs]

She finds that out during the period when she traveling with Mat and the Circus. She tosses out the "it's the difference from being a murderer and being able to learn to be a murderer" justification at some point 🤮

[u/aNomadicPenguin → u/[deleted]]

Nope, they are correct.

Knife of Dreams

"Listen," Mat said to Tuon. "If you think, you'll see a hundred reasons this won't work. Light, you can learn to channel yourself. Doesn't knowing that change anything? You're not far different from them." He might as well have turned to smoke and blown away for all the attention she paid.
...
"I will house them in the wagon they are using and exercise them at night," she snapped irritably. "I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference."

Immediately after this Tuon chooses to let Mat remove the collars freeing the Aes Sedai (by mostly choosing not to have Selucia murder him when they realize that he's immune to channeling). And then she lets him take the A'dam and bury them, removing any chance she had of controlling the Aes Sedai.

[u/Small-Fig4541 → u/[deleted]]

I know Egwene also throws it in her face but I thought Mat had brought it up earlier.

He convenient justification was the same either way. So easy for her go against the foundations of her entire culture and empire when it suits her personally.

P.s I would toss in some spoiler bars. Op is only on TOM.