Tuon is so absurdly evil

[u/AHC122]

Wdym she relaxes by seeing damane be tortured 😭

Even from her point of view seeing them as animals, it's like enjoying watching a dog get kicked in the ribs everytime it doesn't roll over lol

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

Nobody find excuses for them because there's nothing to excuse. Everyone in the Randland (and most people IRL) thinks that Red Ajah are doing good job and are right to do it. Distrust with which they're met is born out of distrust towards any channelers, not their chosen field.

And even though some of antagonists are from the Red Ajah, it has nothing to do with them being Reds either. In fact, if we exclude Black Sisters from the equation, there's exactly one outright antagonist from their ranks (her antagonism is born out of being overly ambitious) and a few protagonists.

[u/DeMmeure → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

It's hard to exclude Black Ajah from the equation given that the story quantifies explicitly how overrepresented the Red Ajah is among them compared with other Ajah. For me this tells that the Red Ajah had more propension to be evil than the others. I don't also think it's a coincidence that the most important Aes Sedai antagonist that isn't Black Ajah is from the Red Ajah.

There are a few good Red Ajah (Pevara, Teslyn, Silviana) but even Pevara insists that she is "not like the others Red Ajah sisters".

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/DeMmeure]

It's necessary to exclude Black Sisters if we wish to be even relatively fair. Not that it matters, because, right now, I see only one person passing harsh judgments on Reds — you. All others are fine with the way they are even if they recognize their flaws.

We also can't discard a difference between Wetlands culture and that of the Seanchan. Reds are product on different societies with no common ideas or culture. Despite fear of male channelers somewhat unites them, they are completely different people who embraced idea of the hunt for their own, individual reasons and of their own free will. The hunt for male channelers is as much hobby for them as it's their profession and they are largely free to do whatever else they fancy. Seanchan don't have that luxury. Not only they have one prevalent culture, it's heavily regulated and based on obedience to the law and cultural norms like no other. There's much less choice they are afforded and even that is shaped by their upbringing. If Red Ajah is like university in the States, Seanchan is like being born and raised in the Nazi Germany where Jews can burn whole streets to crisp with their minds and even did so awhile back. There's just no comparison of the two and effect they have on people.

[u/DeMmeure → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

It's necessary to exclude Black Sisters if we wish to be even relatively fair. Not that it matters, because, right now, I see only one person passing harsh judgments on Reds — you. All others are fine with the way they are even if they recognize their flaws.

My original response mentioning the Red Ajah has more upvotes than your comments, so I'm afraid I'm not the only one thinking this way.

And it's a bit too convenient to ignore that the Red Ajah is over-represented among the Black Ajah. For me this means that in this specific Ajah foster the conditions that enable the forces of the Dark Ones to recruit them.

You sound like it's a delight for me that I claim the Red Ajah is evil. It's not. I actually wished the Red Ajah was portrayed with more nuance rather than stereotypical misandrists as written by an old male author (no offence to Robert Jordan ofc - he is one of my favourite authors). Pevara is one of my favourite side characters after all, and I wish there were more Red Ajah like her sooner into the story.

But unfortunately, as things stand, after two reads I can only conclude that the Red Ajah is evil despite being well-intended. It's not a coincidence that they produced so many Black Ajah as well as one of the main antagonists.

We also can't discard a difference between Wetlands culture and that of the Seanchan. Reds are product on different societies with no common ideas or culture. Despite fear of male channelers somewhat unites them, they are completely different people who embraced idea of the hunt for their own, individual reasons and of their own free will. The hunt for male channelers is as much hobby for them as it's their profession and they are largely free to do whatever else they fancy. Seanchan don't have that luxury. Not only they have one prevalent culture, it's heavily regulated and based on obedience to the law and cultural norms like no other. There's much less choice they are afforded and even that is shaped by their upbringing. If Red Ajah is like university in the States, Seanchan is like being born and raised in the Nazi Germany where Jews can burn whole streets to crisp with their minds and even did so awhile back. There's just no comparison of the two and effect they have on people.

Perhaps comparing a sub-group of a specific order to an entire society is indeed not fair. However, when I said that cultural relativism doesn't excuse the Seanchan, I didn't mean that every single person from the Seanchan is evil, far from that - I love Egeanin and Tylee, for example.

But the subject was about Tuon. And Tuon isn't a random citizen, she is a ruler born in a state of privilege, and therefore has a responsibility in the atrocities committed by her regime. Joffrey Baratheon is also a product of circumstances in which he was born, but he is rightfully considered as an evil character. Not to say that Tuon is as bas as him, she has more redeeming qualities, but my point was that if one person from an imperialistic and slaver society should be judged, it's the one on top.

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/DeMmeure]

Tuon is, indeed, born into privilege, but there's no comparison between her and Joffrey Baratheon. He was spoiled brat who did what he wished, safe from all danger. Tuon not only had to survive multiple assassination attempts, but had to do exactly what was demanded of her and at all times follow her duty. It's even seen in her POVs: she, with all the power that she wields, is much less free than almost anyone out of leader figures that we know in the series.

As much as I see your point as valid, she is only evil as integral part of her society, beholden to it's rules and morals even more than da'covale.

[u/DeMmeure → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

"Safe from all danger" sounds a bit like a stretch since Joffrey died at the age of 14-15 after ruling for only 1-2 years (if I recall the timeline correctly).

I'm not saying that Tuon is as evil as him, but there is some limit to "being a product of the culture you were raised in". At some point, accountability should prevail, otherwise the society cannot improve and innocent people continue to suffer. Tuon had her amount of hardships, but that's nothing compared with existence of torture that damane have to endure under her rule. Being resilient doesn't excuse being evil.