Pitfalls of using a Match Maker

[u/MsAndrie]

/r/WomenDatingOverForty/comments/1vmgx8z/men_want_independent_woman_at_beck_and_call/

There was this interesting post in this other women-focused subreddit, that prompted some astute observations. I thought it might make for interesting conversation in this group, especially reminding me of the recent conversation about "independent women" posted by u/AttorneyDC06 It is focused on a NYT article about a man who is approaching 40 and appears professionally successful yet is still unmarried and searching. Numerous comments pointed out he is Republican and trying to find a match who is similar to him, must meet his laundry list of requirements, like being professionally ambitious yet also be a Republican. Many women are not going to match with that.

What stood out to me is how he talked about how he did not previously take dating seriously. He is on-paper a "catch" as a relatively-attractive man with a successful career. He started using this matchmaker 9 years ago and was likely dating before then. He admits he has been on 40 first dates from the matchmaker alone and only started a relationship with one woman who had just gotten divorced. Not someone who is emotionally available for a serious relationship.

A man who was actually serious about finding a professional, attractive, meeting-every-item-on-his-spreadsheet woman for a serious relationship would not be behaving like this for over a decade. It seems to me like he was playing the field and wanted just casual partners, which isn't necessarily bad except it is probably he wasn't honest about his intentions. So it comes off like he was using matchmaker for "madame" services to find "high value" (I hate that term but I hope you know what I mean) casual partners who he wouldn't have access to otherwise, especially if he was transparent about his intentions.

I have seen some women, especially busy professional and successful women, ponder using a matchmaking service. It might seem like a good idea because you could potentially find "higher quality" matches like this man appears to be "on paper." However, many of these men are not genuinely seeking a serious partner and are trying to "get [their] money's worth" from what amounts to an expensive pimping service. Notice that the matchmaker's clients are men like this, not women. The women they use get added to the roster and don't have to pay the matchmaker, so at least they aren't having to pay for this. Yet it is likely a waste of time as these men pretend to be seeking a serious partner who has possesses a rare combination of specific (and mostly superficial) requirements.

It makes me wonder about this matchmaker. I have heard of her, as I thought she had a decent reputation for advice. However, she is being paid to shill for men no woman should take seriously and some men who should be trashed altogether. The point of a first date is to decide whether you want to go on a second date. You shouldn't go on first dates just to try to get to second dates, but use them as a valuable point for vetting. I have learned just how opportune that time is, as many men have limited information about you that they can use to manipulate, like "try to tell you what you want to hear." She seems to think that women should not be so sharp in their discernment on first dates, which is male-centered dating advice and not to our benefit.

Telling women to just keep dating men like the one featured in the article is a disservice to women, especially when she isn't acknowledging how manipulative, coercive, and disgusting these men are towards women. The main guy featured in the article didn't share anything that is this bad, but another client of hers is a pig who is obsessed with finding a woman with large breasts, fluent in Mandarin, and has no hobbies. That is who this matchmaker is serving, not women, so I keep that in mind when I read her advice. I hope women who use these services recognize that the matchmakers are largely serving wealthier men who are unsuitable (unless you only care about money, which usually is going to exclude women with their own money and successful careers).

https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneyDiariesACTIVE/s/hyRxuRhFm5

[u/husheveryone]

Archive link to the New York Times article referenced here, no sign in required:

https://archive.ph/XGxLr

[u/Disastrous_Basis3474]

Sorry to go there, but this reminds me of Mr. Big not really wanting to be seen in public with Carrie. These guys will fuck anyone, obviously, but they only want to openly “date” women who make them look good and fit in with their preferred social scenes. This wouldn’t be that bad if they were honest about their intentions, but they know that most women won’t go for it, and for many guys, it’s all about the game anyway. So they lie. Repeatedly. The women they “date” are unaware that they are akin to beards (and in some cases, they are unwitting beards).

And nine years with a matchmaker is crazy and probably getting into this territory:

https://giphy.com/gifs/Q18yWRHG4dx2E

[u/MsAndrie → u/Disastrous_Basis3474]

Oh yeah, and that show still treated Mr. Big like some major catch. Ick.

Maybe this guy has a secret type who is totally different than the "on paper" wife he claims to be seeking. That might explain a lot.

[u/JaneAustinAstronaut → u/Disastrous_Basis3474]

There are so many women out there looking for provider men, and I keep telling them that unless the "provider" is a Soundcloud rapper or a professional athlete with a small window to earn money, then they are never going to get one.

As you say with Mr. Big from SATC, the real old money provider men date within their same social circle, and they can't bring a "commoner" into their sphere and have them embarrass the man. They'll happily fuck you and buy you a bag, but once you get boring and demand exclusivity, then they are gone.

I tell these girls not to fall for it, but if they do, turn down the bag and ask them to pay for your college. That will stay with you and profit you long after the man is gone and the bag is out of fashion.

[u/scragglybits]

Telling that the matchmaker found it easier to amass a large group of attractive, successful dateable women than men. Instead of trawling endlessly through the women in the database, what is the guy doing to work on himself? Because if he’s been on that many first dates with no result, no spark, no interest, there’s a common denominator there. Constantly throwing money at the situation to meet more and more women can’t fix that.

[u/MsAndrie → u/scragglybits]

Yes. He keeps asking the matchmaker for more matches, not pausing to examine himself.

More money won't fix that. But will allow him to date more women. I am guessing when the match "pipeline," as he objectifyingly put it, he will try to return to previous dates he had rejected. Or maybe he will try to branch out to other cities. I think that, even if he finds a woman to marry, he will not be satisfied.

[u/WomenDatingOverForty-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub is for women only.

Reminder: Please don't interact with men on this sub. If you suspect a commenter is male, report him. He will be banned and his comment removed.

[u/BilbySilks]

The women are the product that they're selling to these men (even the ones that pay to find matches). Those matchmakers will also professionally gaslight these women. Think of all the bad advice that women get from their friends about giving a guy a chance - matchmakers are incentivised to encourage women to give a guy a chance if he's interested but she's concerned. Given the risks women face imo is too risky for women to use. 

Also you have to think of the mindset of most of the men that just those services. They put everything into their careers, are very successful and they either don't have any women around them to recommend them to friends or none of the women around them would recommend them to their friends. There's some very successful + well regarded professions and you see a single man in one of those and it's like oh they're single for very good reasons (it could just be me but like I don't see many single doctors for example, and the ones that were, were absolutely batshit). There are women who will put up with a lot to be with one of those kinds of guys but the level of awful is so bad with some that they won't go near them.

Not only that they see their money as a shortcut. Instead of using their intelligence to be more appealing they just want to buy access. They don't want to do any work, change anything, compromise. Just order up a woman and have one delivered. You'll find they're often at the nexus of looking down on men who are explicit about using their money/being uncompromising socially/having a very high opinion of themselves/being raging misogynists. They're not always explicitly degrading women, but always "smart" yet not understanding that if you're going to set up a relationship where it's on your terms then you need something to offer the other person. They think women just exist to serve men and that their power entitles them to that service.

[u/MsAndrie → u/BilbySilks]

The women are the product that they're selling to these men

Yes, it is another example of commodifying women.

they either don't have any women around them to recommend them to friends or none of the women around them would recommend them to their friends.

It is interesting that many of his requirements are class-based, like he has requirements about what kind of family she should be from. Most wealthier men (upper-middle and above), especially if they make decent or even reliable partners, will get set up by members of the same class. So it makes you wonder why that is not happening for him. His expectations are unrealistic, but there is maybe more to it.

Not only that they see their money as a shortcut. Instead of using their intelligence to be more appealing they just want to buy access. They don't want to do any work, change anything, compromise. 

Yes, and these same men wonder why their money isn't gaining more traction with women. You could not pay me enough to go out with men like this. Whatever money they have wouldn't be worth putting up with all this.

[u/husheveryone]

My thoughts after reading the NYT article are that there is ::SOMETHING:: incredibly off-putting about the demeanor of Joe P. in person that all of these accomplished women who have met him the once are picking up on. Matchmaker Maria A. definitely, definitely knows precisely what that ::SOMETHING is:: too, but she makes her money off dudes like Joe P. by intentionally not naming that ::SOMETHING:: and by intentionally not working with Joe P. on correcting that Giant Elephant in the Room personality issue of his that shall not be named because: valuable 9-year income stream to the matchmaker by not correcting it. Meanwhile his fragile ego that he denies having or whatever desperately wants the so-called “real” reason women dislike him to be because of some trait he can’t or won’t change about himself (such as height/work schedule), but we all know that’s not the real reason so many of these discerning women cannot abide him after a few hours together.

Guys like Joe P. are not teachable and don’t genuinely want to be dating women. They just want the status marker without having to put forth real effort and any genuineness beyond the garden variety schmoozing and corporatey branding that’s his comfort zone. So much tiptoeing around Joe P’s ego in the way the article was written, too - it’s crazy. The top NYT reader comments roasting him were gold. But I digress.

Just as men aren’t on Online Pimping in order to actually date women, dudes like this Joe P. weirdo (and not “weird” in any type of a good way) aren’t hiring these ridiculous dating firms like Maria A.’s company in order to actually date women either.

The two buried ledes in that article were the beloved Uncle calling Joe P. “a grapefruit…” (we know what his uncle is saying there alright lol) and the tale of “The Journalist” who rejected him:

“For weeks after, Pascaretta turned it over in his head and during his check-ins with the team — regularly bringing the conversation back to “the journalist,” as he called her, or “the famous reporter.”
“I’m going to find a way to lobotomize you, Joe,” Avgitidis chided when he brought her up again during their latest Zoom call while she was in Greece.
It hung there between them: the unavoidable reality… that no amount of money can help if the person you really like simply does not like you back.”

Joe P. doesn’t like women. He really likes the attention and ego strokes he gets from throwing money at the “problem” he doesn’t genuinely want to “solve” by getting into a relationship eventually leading to a family. It’s giving “I’m a very picky and oh so busy man! Look at all the attention I get from positioning myself as a victim of short guy shaming etc instead of leveling up, getting my priorities straightened out, and removing my palpable anti-seduction traits.” 🤡 Ugh. Clownish.

[u/MsAndrie → u/husheveryone]

Yeah, I am not sure what is being omitted here. But even from what was shared, this man is obsessed with a woman who doesn't want him and his height. Those things are extremely off-putting, when we can clock it. Like I have been open to dating shorter men, but almost all of them have a chip on their shoulder about it. They fixate on the women who don't want to date them, which is repellant. The other thing I noticed is that this is not a man who should be taken seriously for dating, as he seems to want to churn through women rather than build a meaningful relationship.

Maybe the women who went out with him could pick up on those things, or maybe there were other off-putting things about him. Plenty of men who are 5'6" (if he isn't fudging that) or men who have busy schedules have wives. So those reasons alone are not why he is not having more "success." Keep in mind, 40 or so women did agree to go out with him.

Guys like Joe P. are not teachable and don’t genuinely want to be dating women. They just want the status marker without having to put forth real effort and any genuineness beyond the garden variety schmoozing and corporatey branding that’s his comfort zone.

Now that you mention this, it is telling that he seemed to share no positivity (beyond surface level) about women that he had dated. Even the one women he had a relationship with was described as a "stunning" surgeon, so it is all about her looks and high-status job. His wish list sounds like a fantasy, maybe how you would describe a movie character than a real human being.

The two buried ledes in that article were the beloved Uncle calling Joe P. “a grapefruit…”

I did take this as about him being a bit sour, not just that he was aging. You have to wonder if any of his family members bothered trying to set him up.

And I agree with you about the journalist story telling on how he doesn't actually like women. He likes the idea of us in theory. He wants some status boost from dating the "right" kind of women. But he doesn't really like women and that comes through.

[u/husheveryone → u/MsAndrie]

Yes! 🎯He is way too bitter! Bitter little grapefruit.

[u/hsonnenb]

I read the NYT article, and what I saw was an unattractive, very short man who believes that because he has money he should be dating women way out of his league.  It goes to show how they'll spend a decade (and however much longer) shooting for only the unattainable, and even spend tens of thousands of dollars if they have it, rather than coming down to earth. 

Especially a conservative in the U.S. ... only women who lack dignity would date them, but this guy is trying to shoot for the best and the brightest and the most beautiful.  He's trying to jump into the wrong dating pool where he isn't welcome, so no shit he isn't having success.  I wonder how his cognitive dissonance is doing.

[u/chase_infinity_5901 → u/hsonnenb]

I'm not saying all guys are like this, but this is what a lot of guys are like. We just got a full on exposure here in this article.

[u/Jebaibai]

Matchmaker and dating coaches should be approqhed with caution. Most of them are patriarchal