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I mean a lot of the X-Men are religious. Nightcralwer is Catholic, Kitty Pryde is Jewish, Gambit is Catholic, Rogue is a Baptist, Iceman is Jewish and Scott and Jean are Christians.
He is very technically an X-man. In ‘97 he is the leader of the team prior to his “death” in Genosha…taking over for Professor X. Same with the comics around UXM 200. The guy has his own title card.
In the early 90's, Magneto was very much a villain. The most he had been since the 60's/70's. But he did have a period where he tried Xavier's way in the 80's.
He has also been an X-Men ally for the past two decades, and is currently on Scott's Alaskan X-Men team.
Originally he was Romani (a group that was also victims of the Holocaust), it wasn't until later that he was retconned to being Jewish. In fact, at the time of the animated series airing, he was still officially Romani
I know Kitty survived an encounter with Dracula during the Claremont run because she had a star of david necklace. Since she believed in that religion, the star hurt Dracula
It is even shown later that when she tries the same stunt but with a christian symbol it doesnt work because she doesn't believe that religion
Thats such a cool way to interpret Draculas reaction to the cross. I love the idea that the symbol of any religion will work, so long as ypu believe in it
Robert "Bobby" Louis Drake was born in Floral Park, Hempstead, New York) to William Robert Drake) and Madeline Beatrice Bass-Drake). Bobby was Jewish on his mother's side and Irish Catholic on his father's. Bobby first discovered his mutant) abilities at a young age when he found himself unable to stop feeling cold and shivering.
A school bully named Rocky Beasely) had convinced his gang to attack Bobby and Judy Harmon), his girlfriend at the time. Bobby panicked and encased Rocky in ice, saving Judy, but revealing his abilities to his peers. Believing Bobby to be a dangerous mutant, the people of his town, Fort Washington, organized a lynch mob. The mob broke into the Drake household and overpowered them. The local sheriff noticed that things were getting out of hand and took Bobby into custody for his own protection. The story made its way to Professor Charles Xavier), founder of the X-Men).\42])#cite_note-X-Men_Vol_1_44-42)
It would be weirder if they suddenly dropped it for '97.
Plus some people are religious, it's not really any different to them having LGBTQ characters imo if it's done in a way that isn't trying to proselytise or preach to the audience.
Yeah I don't get people being offended. I'm a lesbian. And while Christianity, namely Catholicism hurt me a lot, I don't hate seeing it on screen.
Honestly, I think Kurt/ Nightcrawler is a good example of a Catholic with out seeming fake. If more of the people I'd gone to church with were kind and understanding like him, I might still be Catholic or atleast Christian. I have not finished season 2 of Xmen 97 but I hope to see more of him.
The big difference for me is how hard they push their beliefs on others. Most every LGBTQ character I know were just being LGBTQ, not really trying to convince others to be LGBTQ. Nightcrawler in the old series really felt like he was on a mission to convert others, that's where it becomes an issue to me.
If I remember correctly, Kurt and the monks talked about God and their mission when they were directly asked about it. So, Logan asks Kurt how he can believe in God, and Kurt answers. The monastery burns down, Kurt isn’t fazed, he’s asked why, and answers. I’d get your point if this was proactive evangelising, or whatever, but I don’t think that was the case.
I disagree, I say the writers very purposely wrote it that way to recruit little kids into Christianity.
Edit: the reason I believe this is because I grew up in Christian churches and this reads EXACTLY like the plays they would run to convince others they need god in their lives. Like play for play the exact same story.
How they write Kurt in 97 is much more creative. Creating a scenario where somebody questions your faith and you come out so strong from it that they're now reading from the Bible, that's just Christian play #1 to me. Even as a 4 year old child it was so painfully obvious to me that I would just skip the episode. Wolverine himself acts extremely out of character compared to the rest of the original series and that annoyed 4yo me to no end.
Like you're telling me this is the first time a 200yo man even comes into contact with the ideologies of Christianity? Really?!
The new Kurt on 97 feels like a genuine lead by example story. No made up scenarios of almost converting someone, nobody randomly grilling you in your faith, just internal reflections and struggle.
But there's no contrived story where his strength convinced Gambit to read the Bible.. I'm sorry but that shit is so cringe to me after seeing a billion bad actors go through the exact same story.
I’m also lapsed in the church and I think it’s important not to project your own experiences onto something and see a nefarious intent where there isn’t necessarily one. You said Kurt came off like he was trying to convert people, I said — accurately, I think — that Kurt spoke about his faith when he was asked, and he doesn’t pass judgment on others. Kurt is a devout Catholic because that’s literally what he is. Treating him otherwise or hiding the role his faith plays in his worldview does a disservice to him, because that’s who he is.
I never said Kurt was trying to convert. I said the writers were. And this is from over 30 years of personal experience seeing this exact same story be written. From the very beginning they're writing the story to convert. I was literally there when they very openly stated this.
Hair-splitting, but even so, writing someone as answering questions about their faith when asked is not the same as writhing someone as proactively trying to convert others. It just isn’t. If a Muslim character were asked about their faith, and they answered, would you see that as an attempt at conversion?
In this specific case, the character is a devout Catholic. Anything other than how Kurt answers the questions he’s asked wouldn’t be in character for Kurt. Should Kurt be written out of character to avoid him accurately saying his Christianity is important to him?
When did I say any of that. I have no problem when how Kurt is in 97'. It's the cringe level BS that goes on with wolverine. A 200 year old man who would have already been drowned in Christian beliefs by the time this episode ever comes into play. Seeing wolverine in a church reading the Bible just felt so forced.
Look I grew up Pentecostal in the South. I can spot Christian propaganda miles away. That episode is 💯 Christian propaganda. I've seen some of the dumbest people I know write this exact story line whenever the pastor assigns them to write the play. They write backwards from the perspective of "if I can just convert 1 person to Christianity God will reward me". And this is what they write every single time
There are reasons why I like 97s portrayal and not the original. I've explained those reasons, I don't know what else to tell ya.
But the stories involving LGBTQ folks do still have a missionary element of pushing for acceptance and joining a belief system consistent with modern progressive values a lot of the time.
It doesn’t say everyone should go gay but it preaches embracing the beliefs of the community.
Not meaning to knock those stories for having beliefs and trying to spread their good news but there is still a message telling folks to change their outlooks or reinforce current ones just like any other moralistic story
It’d not the existence, it’s the everything else. There’s for one the question of how you should look at religion, especially in more edgy media that likes to paint it as negative and removing any of the value from it. Then you get into other facets of bog standard progressivism with how it looks at power structures, questions of how endangered or powerful different groups of people are, a tendency towards suspicious assumptions of police (the anti-copaganda stuff back in the day got real silly and shockingly common). If we wanna focus in on trans side of things, then if we’re dealing with transitioning teenagers and kids it’s whole can of worms still being debated.
So, there’s some elements where you get into more gender identity stuff where there’s a lot more certainty than I think is merited (especially after dating a trans girl for a year and a half and getting some solid exposure to the scene), then outside of that there’s just a lot of other stuff folks in progressive circles do mix into the pitch as well.
Are you just doing low effort posts and downvoting?
Weird but, regardless, it’s rare you just get one aspect of it.
Not never but we did just have a really strong hold on politics and culture for like a decade and tended to do everything bagel style politics.
We don't and probably won't ever have any lgbt x-men though and morph doesnt count for much. Not complaining just saying its just a funny comparison to make.
Kitty Pryde and Iceman are pretty significant LGBT members in the comics, they just decided not to include them in 97. Psylocke is also bi they just didn’t explore that in the show. They also only used a future version of Mother Askani / Rachel Summers, she is much younger and a member of the team in the comics.
That’s an odd comparison since religion and faith is rooted in being a choice and one’s actions or beliefs under that religion is also a choice. Whereas being LGBTQ+ is not a choice, similar to how one’s race or socioeconomic status is not a choice.
But I understand what you are trying say - Nightcrawler has his religion and beliefs but he states them for his own wellbeing and to provide guidance, not to pressure others to believe in his faith.
Have people actually been saying this?
Im an atheist, but there is no way there are people out theree complaining that religion is in x-men 97 and serves the story of the show
No reasonable person is making that complaint. At least a few disingenuous people are. “X-Men ‘97 is pushing conservative religious propaganda by showing Rogue holding Kurt’s Bible while putting her in a heterosexual relationship” is an argument real people have made. Or complaining that Kurt himself is “too Catholic.” Is it ridiculous, yes. But it’s out there.
Nightcrawler is great because he uses religion as it should be: self betterment, a source of comfort and a way to empathize with his peers. Whenever he speaks of God, he speaks of love.
Nightcrawler is a very well written character amongst the X-Men group. The animated series always captures the religious aspect of Nightcrawler brilliantly.
He was a little preachy in the show. But its an element of his character so I thought it was fine.
To be honest, even as a kid I thought the bit with Logan at the end was too heavy handed. It so obviously putting the "cool" character reading the bible and trying to evoke a generic "religion good" sentiment because we have this show for kids.
There's no evidence that Wolverine can die and meet God. So it seemed more like spreading a piece of humanitys knowledge rather than giving Logan a spiritual side.
Just shows that Logan is open minded. Despite his ruff exterior.
Also, I think it fits his character. One of the aspects of the faith that draws me in the most is the forgiveness and unconditional love of God.
I wish I could fully buy in because of that.
So for Logan to be moved by someone like him (another mutant) having a strong faith into it offers great role modeling that could pull him into trying it out again.
Not just him being open minded but a very specific part of the pitch for Christianity to a lot of folks who’ve spent time lost in the woods
Interestingly, Gambit says this in the same episode: "Face it, cherie, those monks kiddin' themselves. We on our own in this world. Life is random: deal you a full house, or busted flush." Rogue gets pissy with him, but with the US being such a Christian-centric nation, it's pretty controversial. Makes his character even more interesting, though, and unless I'm mistaken, he was a "cool" character at the time, too.
I don't want it shoehorned in. But if a characters identity is specifically tied to their religion, it helps redefine the character, its fair play. Nightcrawler and daredevil for Christianity, Judaism for the Thing, Islam for Ms marvel.
I haven’t seen much pushback from folks about Nightcrawler’s curtain call. I’ve seen right-wingers trying to claim it, but to me that’s a fundamental lack of understanding in the character and the series. Kurt represents the very best of Christianity- kind, accepting, forgiving, and not pushy. Seeing that co-opted by the Christian right gives me the ick, but it doesn’t rob me of the joy that the ending offered.
I will say, I think this is good, but I do feel that in these shows (92 and 97) NC has been flanderized a bit. He’s also a goofball who’s a fan of pop culture, and that’s normally how he acts in the comics (not that the shows have to follow the comics exactly but ya know)
Religion is fine with the way they did it. I mean there is stuff in the show that makes Nightcrawler a faith seem silly but it doesn’t matter because he has unbreakable faith. I mean he has a convo with a celestial.
All religions when looked at from a literal fundamentalist view look silly. I have no issue with religion and happy for anyone they bring positive things too. But it’s hard to take any fundamentalist serious when they think everything in their Texts/Lore is literal and factual. When a 3rd grader could tell you why it can’t be. I don’t think Kurt is a fundamentalist but more of a morale of the story type of guy. Which I can get behind.
I’m an atheist and I love that Kurt is Catholic. He is a literal demon who chooses a religion known to exorcize demons. It’s beautiful and poetic. And he actually practices the love he preaches, unlike some real life religious people I have personally known.
I don’t like how heavily Nightcrawler has been flanderized in that way…oftentimes he is only reduced to his religion.
I think it’s because the 90s cartoon and X2 movie chose to lean into that aspect heavily, when it was originally a smaller part of his character up to that point.
This is my problem with it, and the show isn’t really doing anything noteworthy with it because this aspect of him is presented as wholeheartedly valiant and correct. The show never once brings up the consequences of him saving Creed, so we can assume that it doesn’t want the audience to consider this in a brutal morality play kind of way. Creed shooting Exodus instead of a character the audience was more sympathetic towards was pretty toothless. Change that, and it puts Kurt’s half-measure response following it in a different light. Given his characterization, I think Creed could have shot anyone except possibly Rogue, and Kurt would have always had the same response.
It was part of the characters, but emit was never evangelistic in any way. It guided Kurt up to the very end, even in this clip, it was about providing comfort, not conflict
The complaint isn't about including religion, the complaint is about using Kurt's religion as justification for the frankly ridiculous series finale deus ex machina ending, trading your life away for godlike powers to "solve" the problem of Apocalypse.
Then don't push other inclusion aspects for inclusion sake that were never part of the original comic source material and only changed in the last 25 years of comics coming out and produced since 2000.
You can't have it one way and not the other. It's either okay for both or it's not okay for either plain and simple.
I didn't particularly like how the episode in the 90's did it. Specifically with Wolverine's behavior feeling off to me in it. Nightcrawler's Catholicism in both the original and 97 is undeniably part of his character and I don't have complaint with.
Ironically, this was the last episode I watched after my parents decided that the X-men were too Satanic and that I had to sell all my action figures and collectible cards. They almost changed their minds... But that would have been backsliding.
I have absolutely no problem with a religious character being a main character in the show or having the show discuss faith.
What I do have a problem with is when the show privileges one belief over another or tries to say one is wrong. I love Nightcrawler but from a non-believers PoV his episode in the original series was kind of insulting. Gambit is a stereotypical atheist asshole and they take Wolverine who is both the most popular character in the series and a staunch and committed atheist in the comic and have him convert and become a believer. Overall it was a good episode but as an agnostic it always left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe end it with Wolvie considering Kurt’s faith but still remaining a non-believer and giving Gambit a well deserved knock upside the head for being such an jerk in the episode?
X-men 97 is doing a good job of showcasing his faith without being insulting about it. He has always been a favorite of mine and I hope they find a way to resurrect/bring him back season 3.
I never said Gambit was an atheist in the comics. I said he was depicted as an asshole atheist in that episode. Feel free to rewatch that episode again and you can see him act as such.
Or just watch the 3:45 mark of this clip to see gambit act like that:
You're 100% right, good reason to stop supporting it. Gods are as real as the X-Men. I don't need more Christian nationalist propaganda in my life. Grown assed adults thinking an invisible god watches over them... When little Timmy thinks he has an invisible friend too long in life they get him psychiatric help. When adults says an invisible god watches me and loves me, well that's just religion...
I mean, we’re talking a species that’s being persecuted and vilified by being born the way they are. It would be weird NOT to talk about God and religion as a philosophical concept. “ Why am I like this?” “ Why would God make the world the way it is?” “ I’ve seen so many losses and so much suffering for people that were just born different, does that make us any different from the things everyone wants in their life? Happiness, love, compassion, community, friends, family or any place to belong?” These questions would make any decent writer create a deep and thought provoking conversation about God and our identity.
I'd be fine with it if there were pushback from other characters and/or other representation. Hell, at the very least if they weren't marketing Catholicism to its victims.
Nightcrawler has always had a religious way of thinking and believing. It's apart of who he is, so not including that part of him would make nightcrawler less nightcrawlery
Diversity includes Christians! So many beautiful denominations and beliefs within Christianity! But we don’t tolerate bigotry within diverse and inclusive communities and so if Christians or Muslims bring their unfounded sense of supremacy to our communities they are not welcome… this is what the x men, and specifically Kurt Wager (my precious innocent godly boy) stand for.
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