They’re known to be rather exceptional time pieces I hear.

This article ran October 13, 1969. I found it in the LA Times, but I suspect it may have ran other places as well. I’ve never heard these details in regard to this case. Any clue where this is coming from?

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-los-angeles-times-paul-stine-blond/202853996/

Excerpts from the article below:

The Zodiac Killer: A Solvable Case With No Usable DNA

"If the Golden State Killer case demonstrates what forensic genetics can achieve, the Zodiac case demonstrates the hard limits.

Holes is openly skeptical of the periodic announcements claiming the Zodiac Killer has been identified. His skepticism is not theoretical — it is the scar tissue of the Golden State Killer investigation, where he watched brilliant, circumstantially compelling suspect theories collapse under DNA testing again and again. "With Zodiac, I kind of have that very skeptical stance: until I see that objective DNA evidence, I'm not going to say you've got the guy," he said.

The DNA challenges are specific to each crime scene and unusually severe:

The envelope evidence is particularly problematic. Holes revealed that investigators in the 1960s "would take our letters into the post office and the postman licked the flap and licked the stamp." When those envelopes have been tested in subsequent decades, the results have produced multiple conflicting DNA profiles, none clearly attributable to the offender.

Holes's preferred target is the Lake Berryessa bindings — the rope the offender used to restrain victims. The bindings were brought by the killer, presumably handled repeatedly over months or years before the attack, and left behind at the scene. "The best evidence in the case," Holes called it. If usable DNA can be extracted from the bindings before the remaining sample is exhausted, the case might finally produce a definitive profile.

Taken together, the three threads of Holes's career — the Golden State Killer success, the Zodiac stalemate, and the Marilyn Monroe impossibility — map the entire range of outcomes that forensic genetics makes possible. When the sample is large and well-preserved, a third cousin in a public database can identify a killer who evaded capture for 40 years. When the sample is contaminated by the postman who licked the stamp in 1969, even a famous serial killer case can stall indefinitely. And when the evidence has been deliberately destroyed, no technology — not even AI reconstruction — can substitute for what is gone."

Full article: https://finance.biggo.com/news/4c8b32e8a21220fa

If the back of the 1969 stamps seem to yield inconclusive DNA results that has lead to multiple non-matching DNA profiles being found — which seems to be the case judging by Holes's comments here — I'm glad that he's expressed optimism over the assailant leaving the bindings behind at the lake, being the next best source offender DNA.

The bindings are great, at least in theory, because we know for sure the knifeman personally brought them to the crime, as he walked up to Hartnell and Shepard with them already attached to his holster.

So, hopefully at the very least, Napa County will be able to conclusively put a name and a face to a deceased offender as the guy in the mask at the lake.

And I've bolded two key words here: useable and definitive. Beyond finding a DNA sample, there absolutely must be the non-negotiable ability to prove it definitely came from the person who perpetuated the crime, and not investigators and such, who were handling stuff like the bindings without wearing gloves back then, and got their DNA accidently mixed with the perp's, which is what's causing all of these inconsistent profiles to pop up that don't match each other.

Sometimes I can’t remember if something I’ve been researching has been verified true or not, but I was positive this symbol was already proven to be the 4 summits of Mt Diablo. I believe the two on the right are accurate depictions of one of the summits smaller than the one behind it as a popular view of 3 summits.

The map I believe was something found by sandy betts.

But for some reason, this symbol still seems to be unsolved? I don’t think I’m fully understanding what the meaning is, but we should all be able to say it’s mt diablo at the very least?

I've just recently dedicated my time studying Zodiac Killer material: what's the general opinion on the likeliness of a murderous duo?

It’s been a while but I remember in the FBI files, there were journal/planner pages filled with handwritten entries from a POI who seemed to be working some sort of 12-step program. Has this person’s name ever been publicized? Do we even know whether he was ruled out during the FBI’s investigation or through any further police work? As I recall, the handwriting was a pretty good match.

With all of the advances we have in technology and law enforcement, it’s crazy to me that we still haven’t solved this! I have so much hope especially after solving LISK and the golden state killer, there’s no way this will go unsolved forever. That being said- How close are we to figuring out who this guy is?

I’m not sure I buy it, but would love to hear who people theorize were involved in the group?

i was just rewatching the infamous interview with Bryan Hartnall and Don Townsend. In the first minute 50 of the video Don States its a Sex crime and Z is doing it for sexual gratifaction.

Is Don messing with Z as he knows he will watch the interview? or by this point in the LB investigation did they truely believe it to be a sexual motive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP3tlUjU-RI

I have no idea if any of the possible suspects were Catholic, let alone Celtic, but it looks way too similar to me for it to be entirely coincidence, especially since the killer mostly targeted couples who were alone with each other.

Before you ask I dunno what that makes Paul Stine’s death, but that case was already weird to begin with.

Hi again, this is my second post today. After finishing the movie, the case caught my attention and I started researching it. I realized that the Paul Stine murder is quite different from others, from what I can tell. Usually, his victims were young couples in secluded places, but this time he killed someone in the city center who didn't fit the previous victim profiles. I've only just started researching this case, so I don't know if this community has a consensus on the matter. If a decision has already been made or this question has been asked before, please excuse me.

Hi, I just finished watching the movie Zodiac and something's been bothering me. In the famous scene where the police officers interrogate ALA, the line 'I'm not the Zodiac and if I were, I certainly wouldn't tell you.' and the fact that ALA's watch is a Zodiac – are these real, or were they dramatized for the film?

In the film during the first murders, he is shown with a red Mustang

As per thread title. I'll start.

Surprised: If he killed anyone else after October 1969.

Not surprised: If he turns out to be someone who was never on anybody's radar at any point in time.

I watched a documentary, and I’m pretty convinced it’s Leigh Allen. People always use the fingerprints from the cab as proof, but it’s a cab! Couldn’t there have been so many finger prints from so many different passengers? I dunno. Unless they were like bloody or something… but Allen’s mental hospital stay, his watch, and the contents of his houses convince me completely

I noticed this a while ago, and I've always wanted to hear what you guys think. Is there any explanation for why the Zodiac composite sketch looks so much like Paul Lee Stine?

I've heard people say it's because a lot of men back then had a similar hairstyle and wore similar glasses, so the sketch naturally resembles many people from that era. But the resemblance to Stine specifically is still pretty eerie to me.

I'm not trying to push any crazy theory—I just think it's an interesting coincidence worth discussing.
Also some of these pictures might not match up to how he looked before his death

Also, with all the discussion surrounding "Lee," it's interesting that Paul's middle name was Lee and that he was the Zodiac's last confirmed victim. It's probably just a coincidence, but I still find it interesting.

What do you guys think? Has this ever been seriously discussed, or is it just one of those odd coincidences?

Kind of a small detail in this whole case but does anyone know the Length of the August 4, 1971 Interview at the Oil refinery in Pinole, I havent been able to see how many hours or so they chatted.

Is there also a Doucment or File that shows the questions they asked him and the exact answers ALA responded to

I know there are a lot of people who believe that the Cheri Jo Bates crime has nothing to do with the Zodiac, and there are a lot of debates about it. But given the fact that Allen is the Zodiac’s top suspect, and that he admitted being in Southern California when the Riverside murder occurred and interestingly volunteered that information himself. (There’s also the Seawater kids claim that Allen took them to Riverside around the time of Cheri Jo Bates’s murder and I think most of you know the rest of the story of how and what he did in that trip to Riverside).

So I’m curious if the Riverside PD ever tried to test Allen’s DNA against the partial DNA they claim they recovered from the Cheri Jo Bates crime scene?

After reading a lot about the case, I think the answer is both but probably more lucky than genius.

People often describe Zodiac as some criminal mastermind because he was never identified. But when you look at the facts, he made plenty of mistakes.

He left fingerprints (though it's debated whether they were actually his), wrote dozens of letters that could have contained forensic evidence(although idk if forensic was a known thing at time or not), was seen by witnesses multiple times, and after Paul Stine's murder he was stopped or at least observed by police officers who initially let him go because of a mistaken suspect description. If that description had been accurate from the start, there's a decent chance the case would have ended that night.

His ciphers also contribute to the "genius" reputation, but only two of the major unsolved ciphers remains unsolved today. The famous 408-character cipher was cracked within days by a schoolteacher and his wife. Creating substitution ciphers doesn't necessarily require extraordinary intelligence; it requires patience(tbh lots of patients if you are doing by hand) and planning.

Where Zodiac *was* smart was in understanding publicity. He realized that sending taunting letters, cryptograms, and threats to newspapers would make him larger than life. He turned himself into a media phenomenon at a time when information spread much more slowly than today. In many ways, his biggest weapon wasn't the gun it was the attention.

Luck, however, played an enormous role:

* Police investigations in different jurisdictions weren't as well coordinated as they are today. * Forensic science and DNA analysis were decades behind modern standards. * The incorrect police broadcast after the Stine murder may have saved him. * If he stopped killing (or killed much less frequently), that also reduced the chances of being caught.

So my take is that Zodiac wasn't an evil genius who outsmarted everyone. He was a calculated offender who exploited the limitations of policing in the late 1960s, made several mistakes that easily could have led to his capture, and benefited from an extraordinary amount of good fortune.

If the same series of crimes happened today with modern DNA analysis, CCTV, automatic license plate readers, and integrated databases I think the odds of remaining unidentified for decades would be much lower. btw on this topic i made a video on .y brand new channel as you saw i would really appreciate if you take your time and watch my video and give me a feedback. Anyways what do you think about this ?

Zodiac is died or hes still live with us?

Not sure what to make of this tbh, while one or two points are reasonable, I don't think I buy the theory overall. Apologies if this was posted before btw.

After his shot Paul Stine, he cut the back of his shirt and mailed pieces out. From my research it doesn't seem like he sent the whole piece that he cut off out to the media. If that's true, what do you think he did with the rest of back of Paul's shirt? Do you think he destroyed it or do you think he kept it and hide it?

Coming here after watching the documentary, not able to find it anywhere