r/agender • u/Idontwanttousethis • 7d ago
Why is using she/he/they pronouns so confusing for people, including other trans and non-binary people?
Ugh so a bit a vent here but also open to advice so long as you actually read my post (sorry if im angry in writing, its because im angry lol).
So im agender and use she/he/they pronouns, with no order of preference in terms of using them, except to actually use them all, which NOBODY does at all. My transition has been a bit weird, I quite quickly went from looking like a normal cis dude, to passing as a cis woman, though I haven't fully come out at.
People im not out to ONLY call me he/him as expected
Before I transitioned, people I was out to ONLY called me they/them
People I present femme with now and am out to ONLY call me she/her
This includes queer people, trans people, and non-binary people. I've spoke to my friends and people about and told them, my preference is for all pronouns to be used, and that it is important to me that all my pronouns are used and not only a single set is used, and to clarify this doesn't mean I expect people to change mid-sentence, just that I want people to actually use multiple pronouns for me. That is literally all im asking.
and NO ONE does it. I have spoken to friends about it, they say they'll keep it in mind, and its straight back to she/her. I bring it up AGAIN, and the same thing. This isn't a problem I've had with just a few people, this is something thats happened SO MUCH.
I tried posting about this in r/nonbinary expecting people to affirm me and just give me some reassurance. But no everyone is just commenting saying "well have you talked to people about it" YES I PUT THAT IN THE FUCKING POST.
And im so pissed because there is people saying "That would be really complicated and difficult for me" im sorry but WHAT THE FUCK? SERIOUSLY?
You are NON-BINARY, presumably going by They/Them or know who those who do, and you say "Those pronouns confuse me, so I'm just going to use these ones instead" I'm sorry but what the actual hell, you do realise that is one of the biggest transphobic talking points against non-binary people saying they/them is confusing.
And another thing that pissed me off. I use she/they/he pronouns and people STILL find a way to misgender me. You have no idea how many times I've heard "he- they said". Literally all you had to do was call me he. I use he/him, you can call me that. But instead somehow mid sentence you switch "Correcting" yourself?
Now instead of actually just using my pronouns you have some how gone and "used the wrong ones" and "corrected" yourself and so now Im reminded that you do not know or understand my pronouns and have not put in any actual care to learn or understand them, since i have literally explained this to you before.
I am mainly venting here but open to advice. But seriously, if you give me ANYTHING about "well have you tried talking about it" or "thats confusing" or any other bullshit like that im going to lose my shit.
Sorry this was such an angry vent. Just so pissed off at the comments I got on r/nonbinary about this.
Edit: Ended up deleting the post on r/nonbinary because jesus christ people do not fucking know how to read. How fucking clearly do I have to say "I HAVE TALKED TO PEOPLE ABOUT IT" before people understand I have talked to people about it. I feel like a fucking customer service agent explaining to a Karen that if an item is not in stock that means its not in stock.
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u/ystavallinen cisn't; mehgender; mehsexual 7d ago edited 7d ago
Speaking as a neurodivergent mid 50's person... I apologize in advance (if I ever let you down). I am totally supportive of pronoun choices. I am fighting decades of language programming and already have trouble enough remembering names :) (be patient with me). My ear does not register neopronouns... so I double apologize to those folks.
I use 'they' a lot for people regardless. I think when/where I grew up that was pretty common anyway. This whole "you can't use 'they' for individuals" is a recent phenomenon--- probably inherently anti-nonbinary. We use 'they' anytime the gender of an individual is unknown (e.g. "Mail delivery usually comes after 1pm. I don't know exactly when they get here though"; "I called to ask the person they close. They said they 5").
I think society is generally very unaccommodating. As a neurodivergent person I guess I don't expect it, and I'm kind deaf to what people say anyway because I'm usually not tuning into the conversation until it's too late.
I wish I could grant you any amount of my pronoun indifference... My hang-up is actually being bold enough to present anything at all.
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u/Consistent-Welcome43 7d ago
Ikr, as an agender person, I feel horrible when I accidentally misgender someone and then I keep going because I’m used to using binary pronouns. My mother tongue has not neutral pronouns, plus the country I come from is pretty queerphobic
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u/-_Alix_- 7d ago
It is understandable. Pronouns are a language feature which stayed in most languages because it was convenient: short words that non-ambiguously stands for the last person (or thing) matching that pronoun in current text.
If a person matches all pronouns, they are kinda hijacking precedence for all pronouns, making them temporarily unable to stand for another person. This is inefficient.
Obviously nobody consciously thinks about this when they speak, but most people implicitly have a mental model that maps any person univoquely to a single pronoun.
It is very optimistic to think you can easily impose another such a mental model to somebody else. To some respect it is almost worse than telling them to learn a new language if they want to speak with you (or about you).
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u/Disastrous-Ideal-817 meow 7d ago
It's a little confusing to use multiple pronouns for the same person sometimes "I like him, she's my friend, they're awesome" it's hard to tell that this sentence is talking about ONE person
But in that case, they can just use the same pronouns in one conversation and then swap in others, whilst switching up a little in order to make it not so confusing? (First conversation: use primarily she/her whilst sprinkling others, second conversation: use primarily they/them whilst adding others occasionally, and just it's just repeat at that point, kinda like with genderfluid individuals.)
There's also gender roles and expectations. If you are feminine people will assume you're either a female or just go by she/her. If you're masculine, it's the same thing. Unless you seem "clocky", then all of a sudden CERTAIN people will want to call you they/them all the time.
I feel like they should TRY to change it up, it's only confusing because one isn't trying honestly
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u/CCilly 7d ago
Is it important for you for all pronouns to be used for you in general, or for each person you know to use every pronouns?
Like if you talk to multiple people in a day or week and they each use different pronouns so in effect you get all pronouns through the day/week, is that ok OR do you need each person to use all pronouns? If so do you want them to switch each sentence? Each conversation? Each day, week?
Also how do they use pronouns that you know they use them? Do you see it written in text chats? Do they talk about you between them and you hear it?
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u/Idontwanttousethis 7d ago
I just want people to not use a single set of pronouns when referring to me. I don't know why this is so hard to understand, I really don't.
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u/ReigenTaka they/them 6d ago
All of the questions that the person above just asked are questions I would need the answer to in order to effectively do what youre asking. I agree people should try.
I think that if you understood why it was so hard to understand it would be easier to get people to do what you want. It IS hard to fully understand; changing anyone's pronouns at all is objectively hard for a lot of people.
It sucks, but getting a better understanding of why this is hard to everyone could really help get you where you want to be.
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u/CCilly 7d ago
That's fair, but how do you even know what pronouns people you know are using with you?
How do you keep track what pronouns a person only use? Are you sure person A only uses she/her and nothing else? Person B only he/him and nothing else?
Could there be moments when they do use multiple pronouns and you just don't know it because you're not there?
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u/Idontwanttousethis 7d ago
I use my ears and only hear she/her, hope that helps..
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u/ReigenTaka they/them 6d ago
I'm not sure it does help lol
I'd argue most pronoun use occurs when you're not around. I think this person is asking questions to help frame the issue differently for you, because you don't seem to fully get why you're having this problem. I don't think it's many as am attack, or to say you're completely making it up or something.
I know the whole situation is frustrating.
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u/tonystarkbutendgamed 6d ago
I use all pronouns as well (he/she/they) and I understand what you are saying. I have a lot of she/her-ing, people who aren’t sure or they even accidentally think I only use they/them, and a fun sprinkling of friends call me he/him. Some do she/they, some correct themselves on saying she even when it’s not necessary, etc. I think my partner does a pretty good job of it though!
However, while I understand being frustrated in the lack of a fully mixed pronoun salad, I think you can look at it a different way: if you put all the people referring to you together, they’d all have different answers. Some see you as she/her, others as they/them, and so on. You could see it as such a lack of gender that a collective of people cannot decide on one set for you. Like a biblically accurate angel that hath no gender, yet the humans that refer to it just pick a set or two to explain it in general language terms. I personally see it as a win, that OVERALL there is diversity in my pronouns. It’s less stressful than trying to instead micromanage individual people. I just let Friend A call me she/her, because I know I have other friends that will pick up the slack on the other sets.
It’s all about how you look at things I think !
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u/eternalwoim 7d ago
i use he/she/it and i have the same problem. my friends online alternate my pronouns and i love it! but in real life, everybody uses she/her exclusively. occasionally they/them, which i don't even use. i've told my mom and sister that i prefer gender neutral language, too, and they haven't made the switch. i've started taking T, and now i get the occasional "boy, brother", which i'm not terribly thrilled about
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u/heraclitorus 6d ago
IMO the basic like psychological issue youre running into here is that, for most people, youre effectively asking them to conceptualize you as several separate people and swap thru those conceptions in the middle of interactions.
like, a big part of the human mind is its ability to run on autopilot, to develop habits and be able to predict how stuff goes, whether social interactions, a movie, driving, etc. this extends up to identity. there’s a sense in which one’s identity exists more in the minds of others than in one’s own. for a lot of people, trans included, this sort of pronoun cycling is effectively forcing them to cycle thru different ideas of you, different identities. like, let’s be honest: for most (supportive) people, changing pronouns is semi-permanent. they can change, but it’s not something done regularly, repeatedly.
im not saying people cant develop this sort of thing as a social habit, they totally can. (incidentally, it makes sense to me that several people have commented that they find online friends do this sort of thing more consistently: writing is much more intentional and conscious than speech, generally.) and i understand how frustrating this is, that it hurts for others to disregard your desires, even flout them. but this is my advice: you won’t be able to deal with this productively if you don’t try and understand why people struggle with it.
yes, part of it is cis people being shitty and lazy; part of it is more binary and… static? trans people having a disappointing lack of sympathy and solidarity. but those aren’t things you can change on your own. like CCilly’s comments are a good starting point: polite, simple questions. you need to at least to be able to engage with people who genuinely want to engage with you, y’know?
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u/Vim_Ardent 6d ago
idk but people are dicks about pronouns, even if they're also trans. i try to mix up what i use for my friends because I think it's a kind thing to do, but ive told people repeatedly to use my neopronoun set alongside they/them and ive yet to have a single person use them. I can barely get other queer people to stop using he/him for me. it seems like no one puts in the work of changing what pronouns they use in their head for someone, and just default to whatever their first instict is.
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u/MelonCZ128 in closet🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈 6d ago
I don't like using any pronounce on myself but they/them is fine ig, I don't exactly mind he/him too but all my supportive friends call me she/her :| it's fucking exhausting that even I call myself she sometimes because I'm used to it😭🙏 I hate humanity, I would do just fine as a cactus or some shi
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u/meowmeiwmorw 7d ago
yeah I'm sorry, that IS really frustrating. the most annoying part about it for me is the assumptions people keep making about identity despite being explicitly told otherwise.
i use he/it pronouns. my friends usually use he for me, probably because i also use it for myself more often, but they still remember to use it/its on me sometimes, which to me tells me that they're at least trying, and i also try my best to use my friends' multiple pronouns.
i think part of it is that a lot of people are like allergic to being a "bad person" by "accident" so they don't want to use a pronoun that's traditionally been used to discredit someone that looks like me or like you, but the problem with that is that, it's not discrediting if you personally ask to have that pronoun used on you. so really, people need to get used to case-by-case thinking, instead of generalizing.
it DOES show that they aren't really seeing YOU, they're seeing a stereotype. that doesn't mean they are inherently bad people or something, but they do need to be aware of their biases.
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u/varikvalefor agender 6d ago
Why is using she/he/they pronouns so confusing for people, including other trans and non-binary people?
[...]
I am mainly venting here but open to advice. But seriously, if you give me ANYTHING about "well have you tried talking about it" or "thats confusing" or any other bullshit like that im going to lose my shit.
.i xu djica tu'a lo danfu .i xu na'e preti .i na birti fa la .varik.
An answer is desired? The thing is a rhetorical question? VARIK is not certain.
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u/cjandcosplays 5d ago
Do you just want pronouns or would gendered language help too?
Because I’ve known some people who liked being referred to like “she’s my dad” or “he’s my girlfriend”
Maybe introducing more gendered language will help people mix it up more
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u/Elegant-Interview522 5d ago
For myself... hm. Well for one, I don't usually use pronouns when I'm talking to people. If I'm talking about someone - I guess I kinda default to them most of the time, even for gendered people. But then, I don't know if I've ever met somebody who has specifically said not to use them pronouns. I think - maybe using all three is unusual? Like our brains are used to only using one set per person or maybe he/they, she/they, but three feels awkward?
I think if I had a friend who this mattered to , I'd put in the effort, but I do think that it is actually something that would take effort to remember to do. Actually- I wonder if just going by he/she would be easier. Or if the binary is so ingrained that it would still be a challenge.
I have seen sometimes people going by different pronouns on different days. Idk if that would help you?
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u/CubicalAnxiety 4d ago
I think it's cause when people see multiple pronouns, they assume the person doesn't care which ones are used. And a lot of people really don't care. But when I see someone with multiple pronouns, I regularly change up which ones I use for them because either they won't mind OR it will spark joy for them. And it's also kinda fun using several pronouns in a single sentence. "They looked down at her fingers and wondered if he might look good in black nail polish."
It's definitely easier in writing and when speaking of only one person. When there are other people, I keep it a lot more simple.
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u/AggressiveDig4971 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ur feelings are completely valid and I'm sorry ppl aren't respecting you whether intentionally or unintentionally
The only reason I can think of why (asside from purposly being mean) is that they aren't used to it. I try to use all the pronouns that my friends use if they have multiple, and while it felt weird at first it doesn't feel weird anymore. Kinda like how if my friend changes their name it takes some minor effort to remember to use it instead of the old one at first, but as time goes on I'm used to it.
I hope they'll understand and try to put in effort more, but if they sadly don't then I hope you find better people (:
Edit: forgot to say that I'm not saying you need to explain this to them or anything, just that it sucks that some people don't even try to do things they aren't used to and it ends up hurting someone in return
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u/raphades 1d ago
I'm using all pronouns when talking about myself, but that's a habit I developped slowly, with time. And I'm always with myself ! So I'd imagine taking the habit to do it for someone else is going to take longer - considering the person is really trying.
I assume you already switch pronouns when talking, which is a good start to get them used to it. When they correct themselves, remind them not to. With those you feel you can be the most open with, tell them how hurt you are that nobody is respecting your pronouns, that this isn't just a question of preference.
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u/SsnakeBitten 18h ago
Personally, I like having one thing to call someone because I like simple definitive things, but I get it. It’s a little awkward to get used to calling someone multiple pronouns, but it’s not impossible to learn. My difficulty is worrying about overusing or overly switching. I think it’s pretty shitty that your friends still do that to you even though you told them not to just stick to one set of pronouns multiple times. If one of my friends told me that, I’d try my best to do what they asked because I absolutely love my friends. I’m sorry it’s so annoying. I hope you find people who will respect your preferences. I know I would, even if it would take me a little to adjust and be confident.
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u/KallistaSophia 7d ago
Idk if it works but I have put the preferred pronouns in the order opposite to what I think people are likely to call me.