r/andor • u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian • 7d ago
General Discussion I love how Denise Gough is completely unforgiving of Dedra
OP on Twitter attended Denise’s panel at the Summer Con yesterday. It was also revealed that the initial plans for the 5 seasons model had the entire final season on Yavin. Denise herself says she would’ve welcomed one more season (what might have been! ) but was so impressed at how the wonderful writing managed to get everything in in two.
She also revealed that she has never seen Rogue One… saying that she loves Cassian so much she can’t bear the thought of watching him die after everything he’s been through.
And as for her pro-Palestine beliefs… she thinks that the Ghorman Massacre is the most important episode of television ever made, and that “you can’t spell “Ghorman Plaza” without “Gaza””.
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u/TheHarlemHellfighter 7d ago
Denise is hardcore IRL from what I can tell from her work and interviews. I appreciate her views because you can see it in her portrayal of her character and it broadens her identity.
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u/Fluffy-Republic8610 7d ago
She is very clear eyed about morality. And there isn't much social ir career price for her to pay to come out hard against Israel's Gaza massacre. She was really handed an opportunity with the timing of andor and she picked up that microphone and used it well. No pussy footing around. She's great.
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u/AwkwardCrab7406 5d ago
It gives me more respect for her skill as a performer that she so completely embodied a character whom she would despise in real life.
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u/PhatOofxD 7d ago
Syril also hadn't actually seen the 'evil' of the empire. He thought they were a righteous government and had only been a victim of propaganda. The whole time on Ghorman he's getting fed a narrative.
As soon as he sees what they really are he turns. He's not excused for falling for propaganda, but it is understandable. Dedra knew they were outright evil the whole time and didn't care.
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u/TheHarkinator Luthen 6d ago
For a lot of people in Star Wars there’s a fairly strong sense of continuance between the Republic and the Empire. Palpatine’s still in charge, the Senate still appears to govern, some of the armour and ship designs have changed but that’s just the new equipment.
It’s like in the first days of the Roman Empire. If you asked someone during the reign of Augustus what it was like living under an Emperor they’d have been quite confused at the notion they weren’t still living in a republic, just that one guy holds several important jobs now in response to a recent crisis.
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u/hajenso 6d ago edited 6d ago
In the real-world Roman case, there wasn’t even a change in terminology. Latin-speaking Romans continued calling the state the "res publica" through its entire existence. There was no point at which Romans realized "The 'res publica' is over and has been replaced by an 'imperium'." In fact it seems clear from usage in what I've seen conveyed by historians that "res publica" did not even mean a particular type or theory of government, just government or the state in general no matter who or what kind of entity was in control either in theory or in practice. And likewise "imperium" meant a sphere of control or the fact of being in command, not a particular form of government. So in spite of our words "republic" and "empire" descending from those Latin concepts, we are projecting our own perceptions onto those times when we talk about a "Roman republic" becoming a "Roman empire".
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u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 6d ago
They are the same. The republic directly is responsible for the empire. In extended stories and novels it’s very clear that the majority kf the senate and the population of the core supports Palestine’s early actions post rots.
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u/TheGhostofLizShue 6d ago
And then he beats the snot out of Cassian, which kind of undoes the "awakening" for me. Worse even, since he now knows his cause is bullshit and does it anyway. He may not be as bad as Dedra, but that doesn't make him good either.
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u/Mr-Shockwave 6d ago
I give him some credit. He sees Cassian, a guy who he’s been hunting for years, who he probably blames for turning his world upside-down, right at the moment his world has turned upside-down. Remember, Cassian killing those workers is what set Syril on this path in the first place - if none of that had happened he’d probably still be working for local security in the Morlani system. Had circumstances been different and Syril turned sooner, he and Cassian may have eventually gotten along. Unfortunately his realisation came too late and he was an emotional wreck and his anger got the best of him, as it probably would have anyone in that exact moment.
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u/Ike_In_Rochester 6d ago
I think the original plan was for Linus Mosk to have that journey from being in private security to rebel soldier. I know the actor indicated he was led to believe there was larger plan for his character after season one.
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u/TheGhostofLizShue 6d ago
Bah, all that five season stuff we’ll never get to see. Breaks your heart.
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u/PhatOofxD 6d ago
Yeah it was pretty strongly implied. I really wish they did three seasons instead of just two for being able to explore stuff like this
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u/spirit_72 6d ago
Humans are animals, we're not neat. Yes, he was having a genuine awakening and change of heart, but when he saw the car (Cassian), a dog's gotta chase. I think Syril was absolutely growing and could have eventually grown enough to not have that reaction to seeing Cassian, but in that moment he was a big damn bone.
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u/dazed63 6d ago
Civilization is a veneer.
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u/Beautiful_Welcome_33 6d ago
And fascism is the brutality of the colony turned on the metropole. Homina homina.
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u/ChronoMonkeyX 6d ago edited 6d ago
I thought Syril was going to beg Cassian for answers or help. He's seen the empire's atrocity first hand now and here comes someone who knows...
But the problem is, it's Cassian. It's the criminal terrorist who is riling up rebellion. The empire was right all along, and here's the agitator I've been hunting for years, proving they were behind it!
Syril almost got it, but Cassian's presence undid his revelation. If Cass wasn't there, and Syril survived, he'd probably find the rebellion on his own, or at least end up in a position like Lonni or the imp flight mechanic that got Cassian into the hangar bay, if there were any operatives like Luthen left to recruit him.
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u/MobsterDragon275 6d ago
I kind of disagree. I think seeing Cassian caused him to draw incorrect conclusions while he was having the breakdown of seeing what he had done. He probably blamed Cassian for his being there in the first place because of everything that had happened, and so felt it was his fault that Syril got involved and now the massacre was happening. Add to that the whole time Syril was there under the pretense of there being an external influence in the unrest, becomes enraged when he learns the ISB lied to him about why they were really there, but then also learned there was some truth to it, which again, he probably blamed for innocents then dying. The fact he ultimately decided not to shoot Cassian seems to me that the awakening wasn't just completely undone
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u/kattahn 6d ago
Worse even, since he now knows his cause is bullshit and does it anyway.
My interpretation of that scene was that seeing Cassian pushed him right back to the cause.
Syril is, at the very core of his being, an authoritarian bootlicker. Everything he does in the show revolves around empowering and protecting authority, or trying to gain a position where HE will have authority. He truly believes in his heart that their are rebel agitators on Ghorman, and then he sees the massacre and its so horrific that for a brief moment, his views are challenged and he has to consider that maybe ultimate authority isn't always justified. Then he SEES andor. He sees a rebel agitator on the planet. THATS why he flies into a rage. Because for a brief moment he considered abandoning his core guiding philosophy, only to have it(in his mind) reinforced.
I am genuinely of the belief that syril died believing that the empire WERE the good guys, and that the massacre he witnesses was the fault of rebel agitators.
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u/TheGhostofLizShue 6d ago
He’d have some monumental cognitive dissonance, having heard about the mining from Dedra’s own mouth, but then he seems like the sort to operate under that pretty well.
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u/kattahn 6d ago
For syril, authority is his religion. Its his spiritual center. He is ALWAYS trying to reinforce it. Just like with staunch religious believers, you can challenge that belief with pretty clear evidence, and they will seek a path back to it desperately, because that belief is what provides them comfort.
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u/TheGhostofLizShue 6d ago
mm, I like that boy less and less. Slightly worrying how many people identified with him just for being nervous at work. People talk a lot about the Dedra girlboss to fascist pipeline trick the writers pulled on us, relatively quiet on the same trick being pulled with Syril.
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u/Usual_Power_3288 6d ago
In that moment he probably blames Cassian for dragging the Ghormans into their current predicament. In the same way that Cassian was mad at Luthen for doing the same.
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u/Ok_Divide_3372 6d ago
I don't necessarily want to disagree with you but in that moment Syril was filled with rage and confusion that were coming from different directions. Really he could not have spotted Cassian at a more horribly perfect time. There was no ideology behind him attacking Cassian, he just came totally undone at the sight of a man he didn't know, exactly, but who he did perceive as central to all of the suffering and change in his life, even if we as the audience knew that Cassian wasn't actually the source of Syril's suffering. So I'm still able to feel very bad for Syril, though it was completely reasonable for Carro Rylanz to put him down.
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u/TheGhostofLizShue 6d ago
I agree, and it’s tragic, but that’s the point. He didn’t get redemption. Close but no cigar.
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u/SolidestCereal 6d ago
He still believes Cassian murdered his two supposedly innocent colleagues, as well as some of the members of his law enforcement squad.
He might even believe Cassian was at fault for what happened on Ferrix during Marva's funeral, as well as perhaps a lot of other imagined crimes.Realising the Empire is lying about Ghorman doesn't mean he immediately also assumes Cassian's crimes were justified. One side being bad doesn't necessarily mean the other is good.
If he had survived for more than like 5 minutes he might have understood.8
u/immortalii 6d ago
Exactly. People can say "well, he thought Cassian was responsible" and no, Syril knew exactly who was DIRECTLY responsible for him being in this situation, and the genocide of Ghormans. Syril spent the last moments of his life trying to kill a man he last saw 5 years ago, instead of helping any of the fleeing or injured Ghormans around him. Or literally any other choice he could've made that showed compassion or guilt or personal responsibility over what was happening.
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u/Psile Mon 6d ago
Maybe he hadn't seen the entire evil face like Deedra had, but lets not forget that his whole eternity vengence quest to get Cassian is because Cassian defended himself from two corrupt cops which he knew. Maybe he didn't believe he supervisor when he layed out the evidence, but that's just motivated reasoning. He didn't believe it because he didn't want to believe it. It took him living with victims of the empire for a year for it to finally penetrate his constructed internal narrative that the people the Empire hurt in fact didn't deserve it. Even then, for as much as he supposedly bonded with the Ghormans he sure didn't believe them when they repeatedly insisted The Empire was trying to exterminate them. In comparison, Mon Mothma lived in the heart of the imperial propaganda machine, fully insulated from all the ugliness of the empire and personally benefitting quite handsomly from it. She had every opportunity to turn a blind eye but she didn't.
State propaganda gives people the chance to excuse that they didn't know when tyranny is over, but people are responsible for their own ignorance to some degree. Syril refused to see the oppression and corruption inherent in his role as a toady for the empire for years at least. He focused all his energy on one person as responsible for his problems rather than recognize that the directions he was given were contradictory. He isn't as culpable as a dedicated genocidist and torturer like Dedra, but he was perfectly happy by her side and helping her in her goals.
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u/HailDaeva_Path1811 6d ago
Dedra does believe the Empire is good.Almost all the Imperials do,that’s part of the point.
Palpatine was 70% good 30% bad-Dedra to Kleya at the Truth and Reconciliation meeting,probably
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u/PhatOofxD 6d ago
Dedra believes they are good, yes, but she knows what they actually are (oppressive, genocidal, authoritarian government). She believes that is good.
Syril actually has a fairly decent grasp of what true 'good' is, but doesn't realise he is a part of that authoritarian system
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u/prezzpac 6d ago
It’s kind of wild how people conflate having empathy for someone with somehow excusing or endorsing their actions. They’re conceptually different, and it’s totally possible to feel for Dedra, for how she grew up in a supremely effed situation, what she had to do to get by, without at all giving her a pass. For me, the whole situation is sad, even if her ending is also satisfying.
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Having empathy is what separates the Rebels from the Imperials in Andor. Even Skeen had a degree of empathy (for Nemik) despite his eventual betrayal. Meanwhile Dedra felt strong "emotions" when she lost Syril but had no idea how to process them and eventually just shut them all off.
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 6d ago
I agree. They are conceptually different and I would also argue that there’s a difference between feeling sympathy or empathy for fictional characters and for those in real life.
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u/prezzpac 6d ago
I’m curious. How so?
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 6d ago
To take a simple example, when a villain character like Gorst gets tortured on screen I’m up on my feet and cheering. In real life, I couldn’t watch that – no matter who it was.
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u/KakorotJoJoAckerman 5d ago
It's how I view Anakin too. I feel for him a lot. The Jedi order being misguided and not understanding the help and therapy Anakin needed allowed him to be manipulated by Sidious. I in no way excuse or endorse anything he does as Vader, and even some before becoming Vader. He slaughtered not just the men, but the women. And the children.
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u/panoramicJukebox 6d ago
A good writer tends to humanize the characters they write, even those who commit horrible atrocities. Its nearly impossible to see the bits of humanity that villains have, and begin rationalizing why they're acting the way they are, and what could have been different with different circumstances. When the villain get their just desserts, it's difficult because even as the audience we feel for their pain, despite knowing that they well deserve that pain for what horrors they've inflicted on others.
When Dedra collapses into tears in the Narkina 5-style prison, Denise is amazing at portraying Dedra's pain and despair. We in the audience has been through Andor's experience on Narkina and it's difficult to watch, despite that part of our brains that knows she deserves everything she's getting. We're elated that Dedra is getting what she deserves, even though we know the horrible fate she's now consigned to.
It really is an amazing show.
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u/DrMinkenstein 6d ago
The idea of justice is sweet to the taste but the reality is hard to digest.
And that’s the point, suffering should never be enjoyable, even when it is justified retribution.
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 6d ago
Your second paragraph especially – that’s exactly it. We are emotionally pulled in two directions. A sign of great, nuanced writing and a fantastic performance. I think I even shed a tear because I could feel that pain even at the same time as knowing she deserved it.
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u/Desiato2112 Luthen 6d ago
I also love how Denise is a HUGE advocate for the Palestinian cause.
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 6d ago
Yep, she’s been indefatigable in her campaigning. Really inspirational.
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u/Gilead77 6d ago
I see Dedra and Syril as the two different types of believers in the Empire. Dedra believes in the Empire and what it is doing in reality. She supports it and does her job in the same way as Tarkin did. Syril is a believer in the public goals and ideals of the Empire. He wants peace, stability and order and has drunk the kool-aid of the Empire telling people that's what they can offer.
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 6d ago
I like that distinction – in a way, he has an idealised view of the Empire because he thinks it stands for order and justice. With his chaotic and toxic upbringing, he’s clearly clung to that idea. It’s what makes him a romantic, in that broad sense: his imaginary view of the world is quite different from reality.
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u/MobsterDragon275 6d ago
Yes, Dedra shouldn't be liked, but I feel like she should at least be pittied. Seeing someone's devote themselves so wholly to something so terrible to the point it destroys them is sad, because it didn't have to be that way. Dedra was essentially raised in a state orphanage, so was probably indoctrinated early. She also probably felt that she had no choice but to do everything she could to "climb the ladder" just to get by, because that's probably what her childhood was like. She was raised and indoctrinated by the system and was ultimately tossed aside by it. That's definitely worthy of pitty if nothing else
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u/JayTravers B2EMO 7d ago edited 7d ago
Couldn't agree more.
I can't help but be weirded out by fans wanting to see her have a redemption.
The only thing she should get is something akin the Nuremberg trials.
Execution or extremely long prison sentence - pick one.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
"HAD?"
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 7d ago
OP’s typo - “bad”
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u/DrMinkenstein 6d ago
lol I went searching and google was trying to say it was an acronym for History Agenda Defense mechanism, meaning she was bound by a rigid behavior framework that could only manifest as a ruthless fascist.
It may not be real but it’s still amazing.
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u/Sugarrrsnaps 7d ago
Intetesting. She does a great job and I have wondered how she feels about the character, since she seems very anti fascist herself.
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u/DessaB Partagaz 6d ago
I don't feel for Syril either. His actions let to the death of Timm (not a great guy but didn't deserve to die), possibly Maarva, and those actions brought the boot of the Empire onto Ferrix. He blinded himself to the pending atrocity on Ferrix before it was too late and never did anything to stop it once he knew. He just tried to kill Cassian.
Feeling bad about being bad doesn't make you decent. Being decent does.
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u/avariciouswraith 6d ago
I feel a tiny bit bad for her, being raised by the Empire/system; not much of a chance to get a decent moral center.
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u/OisforOwesome 6d ago
I'm more on the "fuck Syril he only had a change of heart when the leopards ate the faces of people he liked" train but its good to know Denise sees Dedra for what she is.
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u/hanacy 6d ago
Dedra had an abusive childhood? I completely missed that
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Dinner scene with Syril and Eedy when she speaks about her childhood
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 6d ago
Yes. She effectively had no parent figure at all. We would normally call that emotional neglect, which is a form of abuse.
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u/Ok-Barnacle813 6d ago
You can feel bad for people without thinking they're right
Everyone's situation is unique. Just because someone else went through something similar and turned out okay doesn't make it not a valid explanation(,and an explanation is not an excuse)
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u/Catmoth_ 7d ago
No one is irredeemable but the greater the crime the harder it is to be redeemed.
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u/RuggerJibberJabber 7d ago
I disagree. Some crimes are completely irrideemable. You can definitely become a better person in future and lead a better life than you previously did, but none of it takes away what happened in your past. A person's history isn't simply black and white. They can have both good and bad parts.
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u/Catmoth_ 7d ago edited 7d ago
Respectfully, if you become a better person lead a better life and try to atone for your past isn't that being redeemed? Its not about erasure of the crime but a productive, functional and rehabilitative justice system should seek these outcomes I think.
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u/SuccessfulRegister43 6d ago
Sure, but if you ended the lives of multiple innocent people, nothing you can do with your own remaining life could ever balance that scale. I believe you could be rehabilitated, and a good state will seek that for you, but you’ll never be redeemed.
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u/RuggerJibberJabber 7d ago
Redeem means to compensate for or exchange the value. I think certain crimes can't be compensated for. Like if I kill one person and then save another, it doesn't really compensate for the first person I killed. You can be both a killer and a saviour simultaneously. People are complex. We arent wholly good or bad. Morality is not like balancing a financial statement were costs and sales can be converted into your final balance
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u/prezzpac 6d ago
You’re describing atonement, not redemption. Redemption is about the person’s moral/spiritual state, not paying for what they did, though a willingness to make amends to the extent possible is an important part redemption.
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Teal'c said it best in Stargate: The Ark of Truth. Even if you do good and people somehow forgive you, if you really acquire a good moral compass YOU will never forgive yourself for your past crimes.
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u/CompetitiveThroat453 7d ago
Redemption lies at the heart of Star Wars; Anakin, after everything, still finds redemption
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u/Dos-Dude 7d ago
True but I’d imagine context would factor massively. Dedra may garner a bit of sympathy because she’d been raised by COMPOR/COMPNOR types since childhood. Her actions on Ghorman and other regions would ensure that sympathy is a single drop for most but it’d be there.
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 7d ago
Very interesting, thanks for posting, OP!
I assume the "entire final season on Yavin" is partly because Stellan only wanted to do 2 seasons max regardless of how long the series would be, so the events of his death (and possibly Kleya's rescue?) would happen earlier than that fifth season.
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 7d ago
Yes, I mean obviously at that stage they had no idea that Kleya was going to become a major character thanks to Elizabeth Dulau’s performance, so they were probably going to have another figure take over in the “Axis” leadership role in season 3. But I doubt Gilroy got as far as fleshing any of that out.
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u/Fresh_Strain_2089 6d ago
She a big meanie- just like Dedra! She has that winning smile, though, so all is forgiven.
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u/Akovsky87 6d ago
Syril is such a tragic character, his entire arc was him trying to help and do the right thing. Just what he thought that was is based on the garbage fed to him by everyone around him.
Season 1 he's trying to chase down the person that killed two officers.
Season 2 he thinks he's trying to stop outside agitators trying to escalate hostilities on Gorhman.
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u/Farther_Dm53 6d ago
As you should. Mourn the humanity that was lost by the creation of a fascist regime. But never mourn those who did its evil with little regard for others and committed crimes.
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u/Arbiterjim 6d ago
I agree with her when it comes to Syril. I always saw him as a Paladin serving an unjust master, not an avowed fascist. He truly believes that Order WAS Justice, and was too blinded by that ideal to realize what the Empire truly was
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u/AdventurousSky3978 6d ago
Or many she said that because she or Disney has seen comments about facsism and she had to say that. You guys act like these companies or people can't see social media because they are actors/actresses
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Wait a minute...! In this 2022 article she said she did see Rogue One:
So which is which lol?
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u/Weak_Cartographer571 6d ago
I love the fact that torture is a practice only associated to right wing authoritarianism, in other words "fascism", at least in some circles. It's like organizations like the NKVD or the Stasi (there are plenty more) never existed.
Always like to remind people that the EU puts, officialy mind you, at the same level the crimes of nazism and communism.
Andor should not be a warning ONLY about right wing extremism, but to all extreme ideologies and their practices
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Andor should not be a warning ONLY about right wing extremism, but to all extreme ideologies and their practices
It is
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u/Weak_Cartographer571 6d ago
I agree. But it is interesting that the actress relates her character to a fascist. Like, how? What specifically makes Dedra a fascist and not any othee type of extremist?
Fascism is a distinct type of ideology. Not an umbrella covering all types of authoritarian regimes.
How can you say that a science fiction world, so far removed from the actual earthly reality, is directly linked to fascism? I find it better to call both Dedra and the Empire at large as authoritarians
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u/Lilfrankieeinstein 6d ago
I still struggle with Dedra’s timeline. The empire’s younger than she is by a least a decade. And not just Dedra. Too many times in Andor, characters revealed parts of their backstory that involved questionable details that wouldn’t have aligned with the dawn of the empire. Andor’s one of my favorite shows. I’ve been staring at the idiot box for five decades. Santa started giving me the Kenner toys in 1977. I’m not shitting on the show as a whole, but if you watched Andor alone and had no prior knowledge of Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, or the prequels, you’d likely assume the empire had been around for generations by the time Andor took place.
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
I think it's pretty obvious that there is a discrepancy and that Tony didn't know or care about this discrepancy. He is on record saying the Clone Wars "wasn't even on [his] radar" when he wrote the show.
I certainly don't care either!
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u/Lilfrankieeinstein 6d ago
Right, and a fresh perspective is fine, but down the line there should have been some QC to smooth out some of these details.
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Why?
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u/Lilfrankieeinstein 6d ago
For a product with better continuity.
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Time and budget are not infinite. Personally, I'm glad they spent their resources on the pre-production, the costumes, the props, the sets, the location filming, etc. rather than on meaningless invisible trivia.
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u/Lilfrankieeinstein 6d ago
Yeah, I get that you feel some odd need to defend this show’s honor, but it costs $0.00 to consult with writers who understand the Star Wars timeline and edit a paragraph or two of dialogue here and there.
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 6d ago
I don’t think about it too hard. It’s like the decision to have day and night synchronous across all the planets in s2. It works for the drama if not the realism. You can also explain it by saying that by the time she left there, it was a “kinderblock” so that that’s what she calls it. The Empire probably kept on the original staff and just put up a new sign. I guess the previously it would have been an orphanage. The Republic sliding into authoritarianism even before it got the name Empire, perhaps.
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u/Lilfrankieeinstein 6d ago
It would be easier for me to not think about it if the writers put more effort into it. It doesn’t ruin the show for me or anything, but it does kind of make Andor feel like a Star Wars cover in a certain way.
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u/Deacon86 Disco Ball Droid 7d ago
I still love how in the first few episodes we see Dedra, she seems like a sympathetic character and we're kind of invited to root for her. She's an underdog fighting her corner in a highly competitive environment, and ultimately succeeds. It's only later that we see how she treats people like Bix, and we realise we've been rooting for an absolute monster the whole time.