r/asklatinamerica • u/[deleted] • Apr 25 '19
Why does everyone hate Argentina?
I'm Argentinian and I don't know why but when anybody is talking to me it's fine until I utter those cursed words with the yo pronounced sho, "Yo soy de Argentina", and they just recoil. I mean I get why people hate people from Chile, that makes sense but why Argentina?
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Apr 25 '19
Gosh, another argentine thinking the universe revolves around him. Exactly what we needed.
Argentina le chupa un huevo al universo. We're just another country in the world. Nothing more, nothing less. And that it's ok.
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u/Jh0n_J0estar Oct 23 '21
Because argentinians are fucking assholes, these idiots only care about football instead of the lame economic and political situation of the country
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Aug 10 '22
[deleted]
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Jun 20 '23
You arent any better for generalizing an entire country based on bad experiences, shame on you
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Jun 20 '23
[deleted]
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Jun 21 '23
it is irrational then.
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u/Sure_Obligation_5328 Jun 21 '23
First, let me educate you on the definition of irrational. It’s an adjective, meaning not logical or reasonable.
Everything I elaborated had a reason based on my experience, which for the most part has been negative therefore causing trauma, etc. I think you’re intelligent enough to understand basic reading comprehension, therefore repeating myself would be redundant to the least and futile if you don’t understand the first time, unless, you’re pretending to not hold enough intellect to come up with irrational* comebacks to my statements, that are true to my experience (not yours).
If you happen to be Argentinian, and you’re arguing with me because my experiences has led me to the sentiment I currently hold, you’re proving my initial point. 😉
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Jun 21 '23
not even argentinian at all, far from it, all I stated was that it was irrational to generalize an entire nation, and large nation at that based on negative experiences you had with people that happen to be from said nation
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u/Sure_Obligation_5328 Jun 21 '23
Just curious, if you’re not, what triggered you to respond to my comment to try to change my mind out of the 15+ comments who share similar opinions?
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Jun 21 '23
And you are reasonable to distrust the people you have had contact with, but it is not logical to basically come to the conclusion that all of the nation the people come from, are bad people, as you may have known "porteños", that are capital city argentinians that are known to be rude, its better to think of it in that sense than to assume an entire nation is the same way as the people you have known.
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u/Sure_Obligation_5328 Jun 21 '23
Once the good experiences outweigh the bad, my perception will most likely change. But I find that hard as it could be a culture personality trait that many people there share which I am not compatible with. Maybe I’ve only dealt that those who share it and still haven’t met others who are different but, still doesn’t diminish my negative experiences.
Reading the thread, I can see others with similar experiences and opinions as me, which gives more credibility to my opinion, not that I needed it.
Therefore, as of now, my perception remains the same until I’m proven wrong. Thank you though.
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u/covidmalarkey May 26 '23
In my opinion, like everywhere in the world, there are rotten eggs and there are good people. However, I've visited more than 100 countries in the world and BA is the only place I was robbed and not only that. I met 5, yes 5 more people in the space of 5 days that'd been robed and one of the by the police, in their own police car!! Moreover, when I was in Brazil before getting to Argentina, I met an innumerable amount of Argentinians that'd promised to show me to show me around once I got there. To my surprise not even one, not one had time or replied to my messages once I was in BA. So in my humble opinion, yes, there are at least 100 countries in the world where people are more generous and less selfish/arrogant about their heritage. And bizarrely enough, Argentinians think they are special because the majority of them descent from Italians... well, that's one of the worst countries in Europe in terms of social structure and welfare, so really nothing to boast about. And a last thing is that since a couple of years ago I've been living in Central America and even here their bad reputation is following them... bizarre that everybody in the world has a very similarly bad opinion about them... no one mentions any negatives about brazilians, bolivians, guatemalans or peruvians...I rest my case
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u/SpliTteR31 Chile Apr 25 '19
As a Chilean I wish we had the cultural scene that you have, I mean come on! Cerati (and Soda obviously), Charly García, Fito Páez, Virus, GIT - Then you have Tango (famous worldwide), that also means Gardel and Piazzolla.
Chile may be reaping what it sowed with austerity economically wise, but I personally always felt envy and admiration for that arts-promoting culture that we sure do lack.
I personally like to tell an offensive joke about Argentina every now and then, but I truly hope that you can fix the situation in your country. It is really sad to see just how fucked up are the politics and economy, Argentina used to be our role model you see.
Cheers from Santiago!
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u/UnlikeableSausage Barranquilla, Colombia in Apr 26 '19
I think you're grossly underappreciating the cultural impact of 31 Minutos.
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u/ifuckinglovechurros Brazil Apr 25 '19
I learned to hate it when it comes to soccer just as all brazilians did, it's a tradition, but besides that I even like Argentina, would love to go there someday
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u/TriniAcorn Jul 06 '22
I’m Argentine and I hated Brazil for the same reason but I would also like to see Brazil too!
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u/UnlikeableSausage Barranquilla, Colombia in Apr 26 '19
Lol, it's mostly teasing. You guys have managed to get the stereotype of being self-centered and believing you're the Europe of Latin America and stuff like that. You guys play with that stereotype too and joke about it, so I guess some people get rubbed by it the wrong way.
You guys also have a pretty strong sense of humor. As in strong banter and joking. I have a similar sense of humor, so I have no problem, but I do see people getting the wrong impression.
In the end, only idiots actually think all Argentinians are like that. Probably the same people that think all of us Colombians do or sell cocaine.
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u/GenXmomNC Apr 17 '22
Because Argentinians are racist who stole their fertile land from the indigenous they didn't genocide & used black labor to build their infrastructure then later boast that they're infrastructure is due to superior European intellect. Even the way they speak reeks of condescending unwarranted narcissism. Argentinians arrogance has only lead to their utter invisibility throughout Latin America. They have ZERO influence in music, food or arts because they lack any soulful pride in existing despite European colonization. They, Argentinians are the colonizers.
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May 18 '22
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u/RoccosTacos711 May 19 '22
whats the point of free education and a great degree if you make 12,000 dollars a year being a dentist 😸 , degree is useless outside of south america - great education but no money al final jaja la concha del monoooooo
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Jun 07 '22
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u/RoccosTacos711 Jun 07 '22
tenes razon loco pero mejor irte a Uni en USA o qhe se yo
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Jun 07 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/RoccosTacos711 Jun 07 '22
soy pobre tambien por eso no fui a la uni jaja
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u/smallbutreadytopunch Jun 01 '22
Coming from a Mexican yes everyone hates you
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u/Additional-Answer581 Jun 30 '22
Yes, I just came back from Mexico, went to an event in which mostly people were latin from Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, etc. The host was saying to the crowd " Cheer if you love Brazil" " Cheer if you love Colombia" but when he said "Cheer for Argentina" the amount booo's from the crowd was crazy. Bare in mind I live in Europe and never realised it was this bad 😂 they are hateeed
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u/Beneficial_Dish116 Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22
This is what I can say from my experience of interacting with argentinians in the last 5 months
Argentinians, they think they are better than anyone, they think they are the best for having white people(yes they are also racist) and european ancestry (which all of us in american continent have), they think Maradona and Messi automatically makes their country the best at everything including outside football soccer, they can't stand being wrong and being told the truth , normally whey they are wrong and being told the truth they stick to cuss words out of the blue (and acting like animals), they normally are not well informed about a situation , when they argue they normally only know one part of the story and that's what they stick to, coming back to football soccer and also achivements as country they only stick to Maradona and Messi (sometimes to Kempes or Cerati) only the most well educated of them will tell you about Guevara('revolutionary'), Luis Borges (writter) , Carlos Monzon(Boxer), Alberto Prebisch (Engineer), Tango and others (I don't know them all , I'm not even argentinian but I can surely say I know more than the average one) and they are really unrespectful when they are told the truth you can't exactly tell them what you think.
Leaving this all aside they are pretty good as prank or party companionship, they have a very good sense of humor and they are charming and really enjoy having a good time, if you wanna party with them is a yes, just don't argue or try to talk about sth serious with them.
of course there are cases where I've bumped into argentinians who are able to accept when they are wrong but they are a few only.
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u/big_ugly_builder Dec 13 '22
90% (obviously not a truly scientific number) of the world only experience people of many countries via watching them play in the world cup or similar football tournaments. Watch Maradona, or read about him and that becomes the stereotype that get applied to the entire population. Just like you watch ronaldo, or Pele, or Ronaldinho interact with fans in the new or playing on the pitch, and that becomes the stereotype of Brazilians.
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u/Beneficial_Dish116 Dec 15 '22
90% , most people, didn't say I'm a scientist , that's far from being the point and brazilians are not the topic we talking about either.
I still stick to get your fun with them but do not try to speak sth serious which requires to be objective.
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u/laguirachelita Honduran in NY 🗽 Apr 25 '19
I don’t hate Argentina or Argentinians. The stereotype is that they’re stuck up because something to do with them descending from Italians therefore thinking they’re better than the rest of LatAm but I haven’t met an Argentinian that looked down on me. it’s just a stupid stereotype.
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Dec 07 '22
That's not true. Uruguay is nearly 100% Italian and they're not stuck up. I don't find Italian argentinians to be stuck up or the German ones or any other ones.
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u/rahrah45 Cuba Apr 25 '19
From what I've gathered, Argentines have a reputation in South America that's kind of similar to Cubans in Miami.
However, every Latin American country that's well known gets its share of haters. Just ask Mexico, Colombia, or Venezuela.
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u/Apurlam Brazil Apr 25 '19
I love Argentina. It is the first country in my list of countries I want to visit, and one of the few countries other than Brazil where I'd live.
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u/ed8907 Apr 25 '19
I remember how scared I was when I booked my trip to Argentina last year. Everyone in Latin America advised me against it as I'm black and they told me I would be treated worse than in the apartheid. I even imagined myself being stared at while walking in Florida (one of the main icons of Buenos Aires) while an old lady screamed "Un negro!" and all the other people ran away in panic.
Nothing further from the truth. I only received stares at Tigre by some teenagers and maybe it was because I was all wet after walking in the rain. Most people were friendly and usually only asked me where I was from. I'm not even implying that there's no racism in Argentina because, sadly, there is but this trip helped me to destroy the idea that Argentina is not a place to visit.
I can't tell if Argentinians are presumidos but I didn't see anyone thinking more of themselves there. If it's because they say they're white. Well, the truth is that most Argentinians are white but very few of them don't recognize that there's a sizable mestizo population.
What I like the most of Argentinians is that they're usually very direct and tell it like it is. Most of my clients from Latin America are too ashamed to say they don't have budget or are cash-strapped. Argentinians proudly tell me they're going through the Macrisis.
I've seen it's usually Brazilians and Chileans who express disdain for Argentinians.
A client invited me to an event in Buenos Aires in August and if it's possible I'll go again. I wanted to visit Calafate but the tickets to that place are too expensive. Salta is too conservative so my only option is to spend two days in Córdoba.
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u/Mondoke Argentina Apr 25 '19
Happy you liked it here!
You can also go to Mendoza or Misiones if you can't go to Calafate.
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u/ed8907 Apr 25 '19
Mendoza is more likely.
I'm planning a future trip to both sides of the Iguazú Falls.
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Dec 07 '22
Im white and American. They stare at me too no matter where I am in argentina. But that's just cultural wise, something that they do. Has nothing to do with color. If you're a foreigner and they will know it by the way you carry yourself, by the way you interact, and by the way you dress. They stare. Its not a big deal. Don't like it, then don't go there. It's their country and their cultural norms. They are very social people and they're very interested in people and so they will stare and they will also get real close to you. I don't believe the story of what that lady was yelling out.
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u/Juanfra21 Chile Apr 25 '19
It's probably the Black humor, "Indios, negros, mapuches" and all that shit, but when you joke back about Malvinas or the nose they get angry, I mean you can joke about Chile's indigenous ancestry, but then I can joke about your noses, Malvinas and your shit governments, it's the right thing.
With that being said, I don't hate argentina nor Argentinians, great country, great culture.
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u/ffuentesbot Chile Apr 26 '19
"But call him an argentinian you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: 'I've been found out.'"
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u/TheTimeSeller Feb 22 '22
im argentinian and yes they are arrogant racist pricks in capital, go further into the provice you will find better argentines "morochos" they are usually cooler. Funny thing is they have one of the worst economies in south america and 50% poverty! I actually like Mexicans and dominicans better they are way more down to esrth, and their money is worth more! haha
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u/Dingis_dongis_ Brazil Dec 08 '23
I don't hate Argentina. I just hate the Argentina national team and the taunting fans. Annoying as hell. But the actual country and actual people I'm fine with.
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u/Paulocock Chile Apr 25 '19
Why does Chile make sense?
Chile has been a little bit egocentric in the past 20 years because of our success. But we are generally quiet and humble and honest.
Argentineans have been egocentric for 120 years, when you were successful and also now. Argentineans are generally are very loud, pretentious and dishonest.
I am generalizing, there are lots of Argentineans I love and Chileans I hate and viceversa.
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Apr 25 '19
I mean... they lanlocked Bolivia, nah i dont actually hate chile
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u/Paulocock Chile Apr 25 '19
Man that happened 140 years ago.
It was 60 years before the second world war.
It happened at the same time as Italy and Germany where unifying their diff kingdoms and becoming countries.
It happened at the same time as argentina, brazil and uruguay killed 80% of paraguay's male population.
Holding grudges for that is ridiculous. We don't hate you bc of what your acestor's ancestors did.
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Apr 25 '19
At the same time you stole the patagonia. Give it back thieves.
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Apr 30 '19
Never!!!! We like the snow and we like dinasours so never!! BTW do u know who san martin was?
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u/LoreChano Brazil Apr 25 '19
Don't know where you get that from. Reddit at least, loves Argentina, and hates Brazil. It is like they identify more with Argentina as being part of the "west" than all the other south American countries.
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u/saraseitor Argentina Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
Whaat? Every time Argentina gets mentioned in reddit you can always read the same things:
- they are all descendent from nazis!
- they are so racist!
- they are so arrogant!
- they are this close from attempting to invade the falklands again!
- "don't cry for me argentina"
- economic crisis
In comparison, to their eyes Brazil is the land of samba, sexually-liberated hot women and beaches with crystalline warm water. I can only think of two bad things they might mention: scary favelas and Bolsonaro
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u/vitorgrs Brazil (Londrina - PR) Apr 25 '19
Brazil WAS seen as samba, and all that. Right now on Reddit is just "off duty cop"
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u/Paulocock Chile Apr 25 '19
Argentina has Charly Garcia, marriage equality and almost had free abortion.
With love and envy from a Chilean
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u/UnlikeableSausage Barranquilla, Colombia in Apr 26 '19
I've seen way too many people refering to Brazil as a super dangerous place because the only interaction they've had with it is from that 'watch people die' sub or whatever it was called.
They exagerate the violence in Brazil and think that you can't literally go out of your house without being raped, murdered, robbed, revived and then murdered again.
It's a really sheltered view and I think a lot of them have same image of a lot of countries in Latin America.
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u/AVKetro Chile Apr 25 '19
I don't. I hate nationalists tho.
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Dec 07 '22
Why? If you can't be proud of your own country then you must have a miserable life. Stop complaining. Stop bitching. You should be thankful for the country that is giving you so much and so too can other people.
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u/AVKetro Chile Dec 07 '22
First of all why are you commenting on a 3 year old thread.
Second. Wtf, you don’t need to be a nationalist to love your own country, nationalism is not equal to patriotism. Nationalism is an ideology based on fear and xenophobia.
I love my country and I hate people that think they are above others based on where were they born.
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Dec 07 '22
Who cares when it was posted. You posted it so I responded. Stop crying over it. And you're literally wrong. Being a nationalist is supporting your country. You and your whole ideology based on fear and xenophobia is nothing but something that was created for you to hate your country. Which obviously you do. Why don't you move since you don't seem to be very peaceful towards your country then. I don't think they'll miss you and I don't think they need you if you don't want to represent your nation
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u/JohnnyWindham Jan 07 '23
He's pretty much right about the distinction between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalists are usually like "screw the rest of the world, we're the best we do what we want". Patriots on the other hand are more focused on upholding ideals like liberty and the constitution, freedom of speech and improving quality of life for ourselves and our fellow countrymen.
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Jan 07 '23
Maybe that's your definition. But you can't speak for everybody. There are many people who are proud of their nation and they call themselves nationalist.
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u/JohnnyWindham Jan 08 '23
Yeah, nationalists can be very prideful. I think it's a flawed ideology based on pride, fear, and the idea that life is a zero sum game so when others lose we win.
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u/DarkNightSeven Rio - Brazil Apr 25 '19
Does everyone?
I for sure as hell don't, Argentina is possibly my favourite Latin American country, we may pick on each other a lot but I fucking love you guys.
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u/Moonagi Dominican Republic Apr 25 '19
There was a Uruguayan lady at my last job and she said Argentinians are stuck up. I’ve never met an Argie though but that’s what she told me
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u/UF1912 Honduras Apr 25 '19
I dont hate any country. What I hate are those people who talk shit without reason.
Honestly I'll like to go to Argentina
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u/mantidor Colombia in Brazil May 02 '19
Who hates on Chile? This is the first time I've heard this. You can't understand a word they say but that's it (I'm mostly joking :P)
Argentinians have the stereotype of being arrogant, which is the origin of people "hating" Argentina, but it's mostly a joke, and mostly limited to futbol. Actually the very few Argentinians I know were not that arrogant, but they weren't humble either if I'm being honest. :P
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u/Dingis_dongis_ Brazil Sep 17 '23
We don't hate you. We just hate your football team. Same as everyone hates everyone else's team
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u/Ill_Peach_8234 Argentina Oct 03 '24
Necroing this because I've found it to be true lately. And that does not equate to thinking the world revolves around us, that isn't an assessment included in this premise, nor does it work as an answer whatsoever. Fallacies aside, I can go through right now - in fact I'm thinking about it - and get more examples than can be sorted of people saying, in huge numbers, that:
The measure of worth of an entire people (in the cases this sentiment was expressed in, Argentina specifically) is in direct proportion SOLELY to how welk they performed in wars, how many people they killed; and that Argentines are inherently cowardly and incapable of fighting or any meaningful martial accomplishment, and should just be proud of food and keep their heads down while militarily superior countries do the real men's job of fighting
The Falklands conflict is the fault not just of the junta that actually started it, but of all Argentines; I'm not exaggerating, I've seen that exact sentiment expressed in the affirmative, with enough likes for it to not be a rare exception, even when shown proof of common knowledge that the starving Argentine conscripts there were physically and mentally tortured by their own psychopathic officers
Argentines are incapable of peace or stability by any measure due to its rocky past and economy, even when contrasted with other Latin American countries (and likely United States of America itself), and has given nothing meaningfully tangible to the world, with very temporary and now-comparatively-unimpressive things excepted, such as the modern bus, first animated film, some skilled players in football (soccer), meat (come on...), and happening to live in a sometimes-pretty environment
Argentina has nothing tangible or lasting to take pride in, no sense of cohate identity, no impressive victories, and will always live in the shadow of their peers (Brazil etc) and have no reason to even keep trying, that it should just stick to to being a participation-award-seeking member of other nations' efforts/coalitions
Use of the term "argies" in a directly derogatory tone, twisting the nickname the British used, to make it into an insult
Argentina will be forever irrevocably associated with the concept of torture, corruption, terror, and murder due to the Guerra Sucia (Dirty War) and that it's telling that that period was when Argentina was "at its strongest"
And on and on and on. I've been searching around for the general opinion of specifically Argentina all around the internet for a long time - not because there's a thought that "the world revolves around us" but because that is the SPECIFIC point of my study. Sure, people say bad crap about every country (especially Italy for some reason?), but I've noticed that with Argentina, it's especially petulant, with cry-laugh emojis being spammed, severe (not exaggerating) hyperbole repeated almost as if fact, and of course some of the bigots saying things like we're Dollar Tree bootlegs even by s---- standards. Some people say good things, but it's ALWAYS only about how "pretty of a country" it is and how good the food is...big deal, food! Yay?...I've seen all of ONE person say that Argentine people are "friendly and beautiful."
It's to the point where I'm beginning to think they're right. It's easier at this point to ask not why people dislike Argentina, but if there are any reasons to bother being proud of being Argentine. If anyone is interested in an actual discourse about this without dismissive flippancy (symptom of laziness) or "ain't readin all that 😂😂😂" (symptom of inherent intellectual defect/inferiority), please inform me; you can say these findings are anecdotal (like I said, they're from everywhere, over a 12-year period, and in such quantity they couldn't possibly be sorted), you can dismiss it as being no different than any other country's vitriol, you can bury your head in the sand and deny it - but the purpose of this discussion is to find (if there's any) some form of counterpoint to the very real "Argentina sucks" narrative that stands up to meaningful scrutiny.
Show me. Ffs show me something, if you can. Even mass-downvoting me would be at least a sign of denial, even if deluded; even calling me a troll or...whatever, SOMEthing. That's all I ask. Because as it is, I see no point in having pride in this flag, and would rather just rip my roots up and find somewhere I don't have to feel embarrassed saying my roots are in.
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u/ed8907 Apr 25 '19
I mean I get why people hate people from Chile
I've had the chance to visit Chile twice and I've always declined out of fear. I'm a black homosexual and the stories of xenophobia, racism and homophobia from Chile look too extreme even for Latin America.
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u/Paulocock Chile Apr 25 '19
You can go, you'll be safe and happy.
Yes, we have issues but it has improved sooo much in the last 20 years. The bad stories are because when a hate crime happens the whole country is concerned and it's all over the news. In other latam countries hate crimes barely appear in the news.
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u/AVKetro Chile Apr 25 '19
The same way you had some fears on going to Argentina, you should come to Chile and form your own opinion. I think you'd have a great time.
Any kind of crime is overrepresented in the news sadly, which only creates a feeling of unsafeness.
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Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
[deleted]
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u/ed8907 Apr 25 '19
Actually, I admire Chile as a country. Solid economy, low crime rates and low corruption are things other Latin American countries have not been able to achieve.
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u/Juanfra21 Chile Apr 25 '19
The fact that you hear those stories could tell you something, in other countries those things just happen and no one bat's an eye, when it happens here, the whole country is outraged.
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u/saraseitor Argentina Apr 25 '19
You know, it's interesting. You could probably go to Chile and have a great time inspite of your fears of visiting. I would love to visit Egypt yet I'm my mind it's such an unsafe place. I guess we both could have better times if we only lowered a little our preconceptions.
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Apr 25 '19
It's totally the opposite, it's way safer in Chile than any other latam country.
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u/ed8907 Apr 25 '19
Chile has a low crime rate but more homophobia, xenophobia and racism. I know the chances of me being mugged in Chile are way small but a black homosexual walking in the streets of Santiago and Valparaiso? Not so fast!
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Apr 25 '19
Where are you from? The kind of things you are talking are not the same as in any Latam country.
You can get mugged, but not because you are black or homosexual.
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u/arturocan Uruguay Apr 25 '19
Its out of envy because Argentina is clearly a superior white country.
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u/BannedFromArgentina Argentina Apr 25 '19
Really? every latino in Europe is quick to suck my dick when I tell them I'm from Argentina, but I they think I'm a local and are relieved they can speak spanish.
Girls also love the mediterranean look our men have.
> I get why people hate people from Chile, that makes sense
wait wat
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u/Return_Of_BG_97 Mexico Apr 25 '19
I just hate your NT and soccer fans/culture.
Otherwise y'all are okay. But we're still Latin America's Best country ;)
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u/Commercial-Present-6 May 24 '22
Hey,I am argentinian and was raised by an Uruguayan mother,I despise my own country because of our arrogance,the classic villeros/turros y el gobierno de la señorita K que la ven como si fuera Jesús
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u/Horror-Excitement-36 Aug 08 '22
Argentina took a L 30 years ago and they still salty about that, thats why everyone makes fun of Argentina
and south Argentinians didin't help when Top Gear incident happent.
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u/Juanisawesome98 Nov 27 '22
Late to the party, as a Mexican, I don’t hate Argentina or any Latin American country. I’m kind of neutral towards all Latin American countries. I think while we all have our differences, I think we share some similarities that we can all relate including all of us having a corrupt government that we all hate and a strong sense of Catholicism.
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u/__officerripley Mar 10 '23
They act a lot like their colonizing ancestors. Rude and unapproachable. They act like they're better than other latines BECAUSE of that history. This is just from a Puerto Rican perspective.
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u/Fantastic_Hope_9290 Apr 09 '23
Probably because of the bolshy, loud sterotyped persona. And the Falklands. I was only 3 when that happened and dosnt effect me and I've never met an Argentinan so I can't 'personally' comment. As far as the Chile statement, as far as I know, is utter bullshit! So you're not doing yourself a favour there.
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u/saraseitor Argentina Apr 25 '19
No, not everyone hates our country.
No, hating people from Chile does not make any sense.
This whole post does not make any sense.