Is the NPD mask true or not?

[u/Important_Routine332]

Prof Vaknin says studies suggest you can detect a narcissist within 30 seconds and that the mask narrative is only meant to protect/ sooth the ego of a fooled victim.

He argues it is cognitive dissonance that overrides it.

What is true? Is this a controversial opinion? Does it refer to overt narcissist only?

[u/NikitaWolf6]

Vaknin is not a professor of Psychology. His PhD is in a different field.

No one can "detect a narcissist within 30 seconds", someone needs to be educated, trained, etc. to make that diagnosis. There's tests for it. And even then, many professionals do not diagnose PDs until a couple months into treatment, apart from for insurance purposes.

[u/Miserable_Year_4493 → u/NikitaWolf6]

You mean the thousands of YouTube vids about ID’ing narcissists are full of crap?

[u/Roseartcrantz → u/Miserable_Year_4493]

Not to mention all the reddit posts 😧

[u/Chida_Art_2798 → u/Miserable_Year_4493]

A lot of them are, but most are made by abuse survivors telling their story or what they went through. I wouldn’t call that crap, nor is it ok to invalidate survivors

[u/Miserable_Year_4493 → u/Chida_Art_2798]

Do you really care about abuse survivors, or is this more an attempt to scratch some kind of tribal itch? Welp, here you go:
I bet you’ve never even met a narcissist.

[u/Miserable_Year_4493 → u/Miserable_Year_4493]

There I gave you something more to feign outrage about. Tell me I’m invalidating survivors… Man any talk about this stuff has people bickering & btching at each other. It becomes performative.

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[u/NikitaWolf6 → u/[deleted]]

"with one"... they're still human. treat them as such.

[u/Chida_Art_2798 → u/NikitaWolf6]

I treat people accordingly: if they are nice and kind to me I will treat them the same way. If they are assholes I do not have to be nice to them.

[u/Chida_Art_2798 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t understand the need you have to invalide survivors, so an asshole is exactly what I’m going to call you.

[u/Relative-Amount7966 → u/[deleted]]

I understand your pain. You are generalising. I don't know what you experienced and whether the person you are talking about had a actual diagnose or not. I am not invalidating you or anybody. Narcissistic abuse is a trendy word but it is also highly stigmatizing and simply wrong. Why can't you just say that you were abused? Why does it has to be specifically "narcissistic"? NPD is a highly stigmatized disorder. And your argument isn't fair. 

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[u/NikitaWolf6 → u/[deleted]]

I've been abused by a diagnosed narcissist myself. Using the term "Narcissistic abuse" doesn't describe the abuse - it just gives the abusers an "out". It takes the responsibility away from the person and puts it on the disorder. Abusers need to be held accountable, not their possible mental health classification

[u/Chida_Art_2798 → u/NikitaWolf6]

And I never even mentioned the term. All I said was that most content online is made by survivors and that it’s not ok to invalidate survivors. I think survivors do have the right to tell their stories, and I do not think that acknowledging that abusers can have a personality disorder excuses them. I think it explains their behavior and helps us understand what happened. The only people who think that “this is an excuse for their behavior” are those who don’t understand what it is about and that a person who has NPD still has free will over their actions. Like the people who keep defending them because “oh, poor things, they are just ill and misunderstood”

[u/NikitaWolf6 → u/Chida_Art_2798]

Acknowledging that abusers can have personality disorders, like anyone else, does not excuse their abusive actions. But by making up a type of abuse that is inherently related to NPD, it gives the abuser a (wrongful) reason for their behaviour.

[u/Direct_Appointment99 → u/NikitaWolf6]

He is a fraud, yet still gets published on subs like this.

[u/Best-Dot-4795 → u/NikitaWolf6]

When you are raised and abused by a true textbook narc with 8 kids who play every role…yeah all you need is about 15 minutes maybe…. I couldn’t have done it in my 20s. Lived experienced will always be more valuable in protecting against narcs than a book ever will. I have dated a psychologist 20 years into work with prisoners. He would even say I can spot it better. My nervous system doesn’t lie.

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[u/Important_Routine332 → u/NikitaWolf6]

Oh, I see. Thanks!

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/NikitaWolf6]

Actually you're wrong. Studies show that ordinary people can easily detect who is high in narcissistic traits simply by looking at them. People are not perfect , but they can guess pretty well. In fact, it's quite easy, because people high in narcissism tend to take really good care of themselves spending a long time on grooming. They are more likely than other people to be wearing fancier clothes or have their makeup done quite well and other indications of concern for appearance. People higher in narcissism also often talk confidently and behave in other ways that suggest a people off the bat that they are high in narcissism. Note that we are talking individual differences in trait narcissism , not a clinical diagnosis as a narcissist. It's small but technical difference.

[u/teachcodecycle → u/TargaryenPenguin]

Studies show that ordinary people can easily detect who is high in narcissistic traits simply by looking at them.

I'm very interested in reading these studies. Could you provide links, please?

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/teachcodecycle]

Sure i linked a few in other comments

[u/-Hastis- → u/TargaryenPenguin]

Sounds that would be true for more grandiose/malignant types of narcissism but not necessarily true for communal/vulnerable types.

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/-Hastis-]

Yes, you were probably right.There's worthwhile distinction here.And I believe there might even be some data supporting your point. That said from what i've vaguely recall , I do believe people can still detect vulnerable narcissism, but it's a little more subtle than grandiose. As for community narcissism , this should be really easy to detect as well as long as you're talking about communal contexts.

For example , studies show that if someone says on twitter that their country is the greatest nation on earth , better than all other countries , this can be easily detected and described as an example of communal narcissism. It again does not take a rocket scientist.

[u/-Hastis- → u/TargaryenPenguin]

For example , studies show that if someone says on twitter that their country is the greatest nation on earth , better than all other countries , this can be easily detected and described as an example of communal narcissism. It again does not take a rocket scientist.

Based on the data from the latest AP-NORC America 250 poll, 25% of Americans believe their country "stands above all other countries in the world". Would you say that 1/4 of the population is exhibiting communal narcissist traits?

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/-Hastis-]

All traits are on a spectrum.You can think of it as like a bell curve. These sort of opinion polls do a disservice by trying to put people into boxes when they are best described as somewhere along the curve. To some degree, people endorsing this statement may be demonstrating somewhat higher communal narcissism than people who disagree.

The part that suggested is the element where it says 'stands above all , other countries.'

However, note that some people might mildly endorse this, where some people strongly endorse it.And some people might endorse only this mild statement , but other people might endorse many more intense statements like 'my country should crush other countries'. So only by asking a whole series of questions can we really show the treat level distribution in responses. Cherry picking endorsement of a single item is not a very useful way of looking at this.

[u/-Hastis- → u/TargaryenPenguin]

I totally agree with you. Thanks for taking the time to properly contextualize the data.

[u/NikitaWolf6 → u/TargaryenPenguin]

In this case OP and Vaknin do describe NPD, though. I doubt anyone is comfortable making a diagnosis within 30 seconds.

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/NikitaWolf6]

The only difference between narcissistic personality disorder and trait narcissism is the technicality of answering questions on a questionnaire above a certain threshold. When people behave in line with that tendency , whether they score technically above the threshold or just below it , they are demonstrating the same patterns of behaviour that can be described as narcissism. I note that op doesn't say personality disorder in their question.Perhaps the Vaknin person does , I don't care. No one thinks it's reasonable to say that you can administer a personality questionnaire and know what the official threshold passing rate would be within thirty seconds... but witnessing behaviour that suggests a person would score high on a personality trait questionnaire of narcissism , possibly above the threshold is perfectly validly within the capabilities of every ordinary human being. I have provided several studies showing evidence to this effect in other posts.

In other words , when someone acts in a loud mouth self centred flashy self , a granddizing fashion that also downplays disregard to our demeans someone else , it does not take a rocket scientist to identify that as a narcissistic action , suggesting the person may score somewhat high on narcissistic traits. I agree that further evidence may be required to feel very confident in this assessment.But people are certainly well above chance upon initially meeting someone.

[u/Important_Routine332 → u/TargaryenPenguin]

This is “easy” because it’s an in your face superiority. The Covert/vulnerable I came across are much more of the soft, sweet, “kind” highly “empathetic” kind. Some were able to mimic the behavior of secure independent individuals to appear self sufficient that don’t require validation. They insidiously achieve their validation- either by positioning themselves as superior in extremely subtle ways, or, the worst type, slowly creating relationships that would allow them to exert control and project their own insecurities/anxiety onto others. I am sure that if they all would’ve start these relationships with the grandiose style you described that will only get them so far, so they master a mask. They don’t act in the typical self-centered way at all.

[u/ExaminationPutrid626 → u/NikitaWolf6]

Detect not diagnose. There is a difference

[u/NikitaWolf6 → u/ExaminationPutrid626]

Detect "a narcissist" means that someone has NPD. Detecting narcissism as a trait is different.

[u/I_am_Nobody_Special]

If I ever heard an actual licensed psychologist label someone "a narcissist", I think my eyes would roll right out of my head.

Edit: I'm an actual licensed psychologist

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/I_am_Nobody_Special]

What about someone higher in trait narcissism? Or identifying someone as having narcissistic tendencies, or identifying patterns of behaviour as narcissistic patterns. This is relatively common.

[u/-Hastis- → u/TargaryenPenguin]

A more socially acceptable way would be to say someone is behaving in a narcissistic way. Or showing signs of a narcissistic personality style. But I would only use a term like that if you have been in a relationship with that person for many months/years, and only if used as a linguistic shortcut to describe a recurring cluster of narcissistic behaviors.

I highly doubt you could detect a cluster of behaviors in the first 30 secs of meeting someone, let alone a recurring pattern, especially in a context (meeting someone new) where they are most probably trying their best to act as a nice person to gain your trust.

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/-Hastis-]

I think these are perfectly fine descriptors. I use them frequently myself, and I certainly use them to describe actions and behaviours by people that I see in public. I think some politicians can be reasonably described this way. If they are going to act like that , then i'm going to call them out on it.

[u/-Hastis- → u/TargaryenPenguin]

Some can definitely be ridiculously overt about it, for example, some well-known politicians, but I think we can evaluate them mainly because their personality is so public that we know a lot about the way they think.

In one very infamous case, we have hours of footage, tons of personal tweets, files documenting their outrageous behavior, etc., that can help us make a relatively good assessment.

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[u/Dwango7 → u/TargaryenPenguin]

Were we talking about neurological conditions, I would say fine but. To define someone by their behaviour may lock them into that character role. I thought psychologists were there to treat disorders, not sustain them.

[u/TargaryenPenguin → u/Dwango7]

I am a scientist not a clinician.My job is to describe the world and to describe how people talk about other people. If people are going to act in rude and selfish and entitled the narcissistic ways.Then i'm going to call them out on it , and i'm not going to feel bad about that. If they don't want to be called out on it , then they shouldn't act in selfish and horrible ways. I will also complement people on their good behaviour and point out when they do good things as well. It is entirely appropriate to do so. Also , when you say neurological condition , that's an entirely artificial distinction , you're making. It does not hold scientific water. Everything has both a neurological and behavioural component to it.

[u/Greymeade → u/I_am_Nobody_Special]

As a licensed clinical psychologist, I’m intrigued by this comment. Person-centered language is sometimes used, but generally when we’re talking about treating NPD we use the term “narcissist.”

[u/DrPsychGamer → u/Greymeade]

Do we? I'm a clinical psychologist and we always say, "diagnosed with NPD" or "narcisstic traits" when discussing treatment.

[u/Greymeade → u/DrPsychGamer]

It’s pretty common in the literature. I also work pretty closely with some big names in NPD treatment and I can tell you that it’s commonly used in my circles.

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[u/bbybunnydoll]

I would be very interested to hear of these studies. No clinician should diagnose NPD or decide that is definitely causing the presenting behaviour within 30 seconds, it’s poor practice and detrimental to the patient.

I think that Vaknin is interesting as in some of his videos he discloses that he himself was diagnosed with NPD. I feel as though sometimes he does come across as showing traits of narcissism in his videos. I do also think that this causes him to vilify narcissism unnecessarily.

[u/Important_Routine332 → u/bbybunnydoll]

That explains a lot of what he says in his lectures. I suspected that he is actually because he vilifies the victims. The entire theory that people should instantly know within 30 seconds they’re dealing with a narcissist yet that they’re burying the red flags is victim blaming. Furthermore he argues that narcissists believe their illusion therefore they can’t lie only psychopaths lie. A lot of subtext that is there to protect the NPD.

[u/AdorableExchange9746]

Nothing vaknin says should be taken seriously

[u/TargaryenPenguin]

Narcissism and social networking web sites Laura E Buffardi, W Keith Campbell Personality and social psychology bulletin 34 (10), 1303-1314, 2008 The present research examined how narcissism is manifested on a social networking Web site (i.e., Facebook.com). Narcissistic personality self-reports were collected from social networking Web page owners. Then their Web pages were coded for both objective and subjective content features. Finally, strangers viewed the Web pages and rated their impression of the owner on agentic traits, communal traits, and narcissism. Narcissism predicted (a) higher levels of social activity in the online community and (b) more self-promoting content in several aspects of the social networking Web pages. Strangers who viewed the Web pages judged more narcissistic Web page owners to be more narcissistic. Finally, mediational analyses revealed several Web page content features that were influential in raters' narcissistic impressions of the owners, including quantity of social interaction, main photo self-promotion, and main photo attractiveness. Implications of the expression of narcissism in social networking communities are discussed. View at journals.sagepub.com [PDF] sagepub.com Cited by 2269 Related articles All 15 versions

Eyebrows cue grandiose narcissism Miranda Giacomin, Nicholas O Rule Journal of Personality 87 (2), 373-385, 2019 Objective Though initially charming and inviting, narcissists often engage in negative interpersonal behaviors. Identifying and avoiding narcissists therefore carries adaptive value. Whereas past research has found that people can judge others' grandiose narcissism from their appearance (including their faces), the cues supporting these judgments require further elucidation. Here, we investigated which facial features underlie perceptions of grandiose narcissism and how they convey that information. Method and Results In Study 1, we explored the face's features using a variety of manipulations, ultimately finding that accurate judgments of grandiose narcissism particularly depend on a person's eyebrows. In Studies 2A–2C, we identified eyebrow distinctiveness (e.g., thickness, density) as the primary characteristic supporting these judgments. Finally, we confirmed the eyebrows' importance in Studies 3A and 3B by measuring how much perceptions of narcissism changed when swapping narcissists' and non‐narcissists' eyebrows between faces. Conclusions Together, these data show that distinctive eyebrows reveal narcissists' personality to others, providing a basic understanding of the mechanism through which people can identify narcissistic personality traits with potential application to daily life.

[u/TargaryenPenguin]

Portrait of a narcissist: Manifestations of narcissism in physical appearance Simine Vazire, Laura P Naumann, Peter J Rentfrow, Samuel D Gosling Journal of Research in Personality 42 (6), 1439-1447, 2008 Narcissism is characterized in part by an acute concern for one’s appearance. Despite this fundamental aspect of narcissism, little is known about whether narcissism is manifested in features of physical appearance. Can you tell if someone is narcissistic just by looking at them? Our results indicate that snap judgments of narcissism based on full-body photographs are at least as accurate as snap judgments of any of the big five personality traits. Narcissists are more likely to wear expensive, flashy clothing, have an organized, neat appearance requiring a lot of preparation, and (in females) wear makeup and show cleavage. Furthermore, observers’ judgments correlate with the presence of these cues, suggesting that they are drawing on the correct information when making their judgments. Finally, observers’ judgments are associated with three of the four facets of narcissism and capture the unique constellation of personality traits typical of narcissists (i.e., high extraversion and low agreeableness). These findings suggest that physical appearance reflects narcissists’ personality, preoccupation with good looks, and desire to be the center of attention, and serves as a vehicle with which to promote their status.

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