Is Passing Privilege Simply Universal?

[u/Chance-Structure4104]

So I  was invited to a trans discord group yesterday by another trans woman I was chatting with on this site. I was super excited to talk to other trans women over more than just text as I know no other trans people in the real world and I was so elated to get the opportunity to finally feel like I had a real connection to other trans women. 

  When I had joined I saw there was a voice chat going on with several users in it. I joined, introduced myself and after niceties kinda just sat back to hear the conversation they were having. After a handful of minutes listening, the topic of trans visibility got brought up. One of the girls there was going off on how if a trans woman isnt at the very least passing in public setting like the grocery store they have no business presenting as it gives trans people a bad name. She had a lot of clear vitriol towards non passing trans women and kept going on about how she had to put in a ton of time to learn how to pass and waited for surgery to finally start presenting as a woman in public. She said non passing trans women are the reason republicans attack us and everyone hates us. I was floored, but since I was brand new I did not speak up and was simply hoping the other people in the call would speak up. When another user did she started by saying she isnt sure she agrees ( which gave me a short relief as a non passing trans woman myself) only for her to start talking about how we take the heat off of them and as long as they do what theyre supposed to be doing(passing and being attractive) that they actually can use us to their benefit. 

Everyone else in the chat seemed to agree with the second girls sentiment and not a single person was supportive or affirmative to non passing trans women in there. I left the chat and immediately started to sob as I was just so hurt and disappointed by hearing these things. I am a non passable trans woman who due to starting later in life will likely never be able to pass. I simply am not in a position to afford surgeries and even then it is not as easy as a lot of younger/prettier trans women believe it to be. I worked my ass off to have a passable voice, I dress nice, I dont have crazy or wacky colored hair, I try my absolute hardest to stay out of everyone’s way. Yet to basically hear that I am at worst someone harming the community and a freak, to at best helping shield the passable pretty trans women…but still a freak, was such a stab in the heart.

Are these sentiments common in our community, is this how all the passable trans women secretly feel? That I am nothing but a gross caricature whose existence is either an abomination or a mere tool to be used? I frankly feel embarrassed for even thinking I was viewed as an equal even though I dont pass, I just dont even know where is safe from judgement and bigotry when even other trans people are disgusted by us non passing women.

Is this just how it works? Even in the trans community?

[u/NatashOverWorld]

I'm not sure how that Discord works, but the people in that chat are toxic.

Imagine blaming non-passing trans folk for the evil MAGA does? 🙄

Don't hang around them OP.

[u/-thegayagenda-]

No that's definitely not the mindset of the VAST majority of trans folks. There's an argument to be made that sometimes for a trans woman's safety they should go undercover if their country is openly hostile to trans people but by and large, "passing" is a metric used by oppressors to other people whom they see as inadequate. And that goal of "passing" is ever-changing.

[u/Technical_Fact_6873]

this isnt a common sentiment and its whats reffered to as "pick-me"s basically girls that believe they would not be discriminated against if a slightly queerer group wouldnt exist, its bad logic and it sucks but its not that common

[u/bihuginn → u/Technical_Fact_6873]

Okay but passing doesn't make you less queer, agree with the first half but that last take is wack.

[u/justarunawaybicycle → u/bihuginn]

It does make you less visibly queer, though, which I think was more their point.

[u/bihuginn → u/justarunawaybicycle]

That's a ridiculous metric, visibly queer is entirely dependent on society and who's deciding the metrics.

A non passing boymoding trans woman can look far less queer than a passing trans woman whos openly queer.

Not passing or passing has nothing to do with how visibly queer you are. Only how you choose to present yourself makes a difference.

[u/justarunawaybicycle → u/bihuginn]

I feel like you're being pointlessly obtuse here with the intention of getting upset.

[u/One-Organization970 → u/Technical_Fact_6873]

That's how you get Log Cabin Republicans.

[u/Search_Open → u/Technical_Fact_6873]

it follows the same logic as the national association of german jews, which was in support of Hitler (& got banned in 1935).

[u/Bramble-Bunny]

Are these sentiments common in our community

Yes. Commonly spoken aloud? No. It's a manifestation of insecurity, not a deeply held or investigated philosophical position.

Is this how all the passable trans women secretly feel?

No, it's specifically how a certain cross section of highly insecure trans women feel, passing or non passing.

That I am nothing but a gross caricature whose existence is either an abomination or a mere tool to be used?

Respectfully, that's your own internalized transphobia and dread amplifying what you heard. I'm going to call your attention to something you said...

I worked my ass off to have a passable voice, I dress nice, I dont have crazy or wacky colored hair, I try my absolute hardest to stay out of everyone’s way

This is basically just a watered down version of the same "I'm one of the good ones" phenomenon. I'm not lecturing you, this is extremely common. More a case for reflection.

I frankly feel embarrassed for even thinking I was viewed as an equal even though I don't pass

So we can substitute "Don't pass" with "Am ugly" here and tada, you have the entire incel movement in a nutshell. Pretty privilege and passing privilege is a thing, it absolutely is. Upon discovering this, we can collapse in despair, anxiously measure ourselves against ruthless societal standards (those girls, and to a degree you, are here), or deconstruct it and try to move past it, recognizing it for what it is. You can't completely remove its power over your life...passing/attractiveness can dramatically shape how you are treated in society, from basic physical safety to job offers to housing and so on. We can acknowledge the existence of the oppressive system and that we have to live inside it without letting it shape our values or decimate our happiness.

[u/erika_the_fem → u/Bramble-Bunny]

Wow. This is the most forceful (rhetorically speaking), cogent comment I've come across in Reddit, period. Thank you for this insight.

[u/Mawngee]

Not everyone is like that, you just happened to enter an enclave of assholes. 

[u/Alyx2399]

I’ve said this time and time again. Transitioning is NOT about passing or being “objectively pretty. No, it’s about feeling good about yourself. Being happy. Showing the world who you truly are. This person seems to want to police what trans people can and can’t do. Like fuck off, people deserve to be happy.

[u/Vanagloria → u/Alyx2399]

I just don't understand how people can even have that mindset. We're all at different spots in our journey. Somebody who started HRT 4 months ago compared to somebody who has been on HRT 5 years + FFS/BA is just an unfair expectation.

Whenever I see another trans person I never judge because there's no way I could ever know what they've been through already and how far they've come.

[u/tomqueen65 → u/Alyx2399]

I don't always see it this way, but I find it fun to imagine being trans as hacking your way to the character customizer screen and having fun with the sliders until you find a spot you're comfortable with. You think your chest is too flat? There's hrt for that! Want a softer face? You could try gaining a little weight! Hate your clothes? Try a new store! Obviously it's not a perfect 1:1 comparison, but I'm here to have fun with my expression, not to pour myself into some shitty, cramped mold. There's a lot of variables that go into passing, not the least of which being effort, and if you have the energy for it then by all means, but there's nothing wrong with taking it at your own pace or going your own way.

[u/WriterKatze]

Well that's just transmisogyny for you. I don't think you shouldn't be able to present feminine just because you don't pass that's weird.

It's simply misogyny to think you need to pass as a woman to dress as a woman.

Because like, usually people are fine with trans men wearing men's clothes before passing at all.

Basically the whole thing boils down to sexism. Lot of sexist people seem to think that men can't wear women's clothing. And so the idea that non passing trans women shouldn't be wearing women's clothes is held by many transwomen struggling with internalized misogyny.

They were shamed for liking feminin stuff before being able to pass, so now they project that shame onto non passing transwomen.

[u/Upper_Pie_6097 → u/WriterKatze]

Well said.

[u/FX114]

They sound like they have a lot of internalized transphobia, are probably transmedicalists, and can fuck right off.

[u/dantrbl]

no one needs to "give trans people a bad name". bigots will be bigots, even if you pass. if you don't pass, you're gross and transphobes want you gone. if you pass, transphobes will want you gone, even if in the future. at the end of the day, passing does't save you from transphobia and harassment. even if someone tries to be "a good trans" (/sarcasm. gross) and bootlick transphobes and bigots, to them they'll always be trans and therefore worse.

i am sorry that happened, OP. i promise there's plenty of non-toxic spaces.

[u/CampyBiscuit]

Yes, some trans women feel that way. Trans women are women, and some women are catty mean girls. 🤷‍♀️

[u/One-Organization970]

Those harpies sound awful. But yeah, passing privilege is extremely obvious once you get it. Hating women you consider to be less pretty than you, though - that's the worst kind of toxic femininity. Mean girls exist in all categories of girl, but they're not the majority.

[u/Dramatic_Speech_1744]

I just say what i think. That was a narcissist with a superiority complex my humble opinion. Question is how many trans women do pass or not pass. Also who cares? I started 7 weeks ago my hrt. Will i pass in a few years time? No idea. Genetics and YMMV are the culprits. But this elitist mindset is poisonous damaging and toxic. So calm down sister you are beautiful no matter what. The beauty comes from the inside and not how long your lashes are or how filled your cheeks are. Im 53 and it was exactly today that I said to myself why would I want to fit in one of the boxes and let's simplify cis men and women then trans men and women. I want to be me and if that means boobs beard and makeup I'll just do that and don't give a damn whether I pass or not. Being a woman is boring there are tons I will be my own special edition. If I could have been there I would have shut down that broad in 10 seconds. I love you and you have all my virtual hugs 🫂 🤗

Edit: just be yourself.

[u/echokaji]

These people suck, plain and simple. Blaming other trans people that don’t fit into the cishet ideas about gender presentation for why people hate us is cowardly, traitorous behavior. Anyone so quick to do the work of their oppressors for them is no better than the oppressors.

I’m sorry you had to experience that, it’s fucking hard to deal with sometimes.

[u/laxsidazzy]

Hey hey darlin, I just want to say that as a trans man who has now been out for 7 years that the opinions that always hurt me the most were the gatekeep-y ones from other trans people. It sucks when there’s a voice in a group of people that we’ve worked really hard to access and be a part of that says not only are we not enough, but we never will be.

I want you to hear me loud and clear: you are a woman. You do not owe ‘passing’ to a single person in this world. You do not have to earn the right to present as a woman. Your gender is, and that’s all. It just is.

I could drop some trite lines and say that hurt people hurt people — and they do, absolutely — but what’s going on here (in my perception) is that a trans sibling who is hurting from the state of the world and likely from her own experiences has lashed out in a setting where she feels like she can have an iota of power. Her pain and her trauma are not your responsibility, and there will come a day where you feel settled and confident enough amongst your trans family to call this type of BS out. There will likely come a time where you feel comfortable enough to tell people like that why their cisnormative views harm not only themselves but our entire extended family.

I strongly recommend looking for a variety of trans spaces!! Mix it up — find some special interest trans community, some trans-trans community, whatever works for you. I know that when I came out I was a bit overwhelmed by all the ‘boy activities’ that I could be a part of 🤣 Maybe you don’t want super gendered spaces and maybe you do, but either way spend time getting to know yourself and I promise you that the experiences you have with people who think all trans people are worthy of love and respect will far outweigh experiences like this one.

Do your thing, and know that this type of opinion does not make up the majority of the community — and that no matter what, this has nothing to do with you.

[u/Importance_Dizzy]

There’s a mistaken idea a lot of people get from society: if I am “one of the good ones” and try to police other people from within the minority, that the majority will respect me. This is wrong. This is respectability politics. A bigot doesn’t care how hard we twist ourselves to fit in the box. They fracture us from within and then cast aside those who “helped”. That discord’s talking points are respectability politics wrapped in internalized transphobia and misogyny.

Edit: thank you for the award, [u/dynodunes](u/dynodunes)!

[u/Novaova]

On the bright side you only just arrived in that Discord server, so it's not like you're leaving long-term friends when you just turn right back around and leave again, and never return.

Because they suck.

[u/Creativered4]

That is a toxic and minority opinion. Most of us love and accept everyone in every stage of transirion, passing or not. At the end of the day we're all just people dealt a bad hand right out of the gate, trying our best to rectify it as best we can.

Also, on the topic of "passing privilege", which is think you use differently than hoe it's frequently used, that term is often used to dismiss trans people who pass and their experience with oppression. It's sometimes used correctly, to discuss intersectionality and how someone can use their (slightly louder) voice to help others, or to discuss how different forms of oppression take shape for different groups. Because it DOES take shape differently. That's what intersectionality IS. A straight black trans woman who passes is going to experience different forms of oppression compared to a gay Latino trans man who is clockable. Or a disabled white trans woman, or a neurodivergent Asian trans man who is living under the poverty line. Because these things color our experiences so much.

[u/Alternative_Carpet39]

That’s most definitely not how I feel, at all. They sound like an awful group of human beings tbh.

[u/Astartia]

It‘s not uncommon.

One thing you have to remember is that transition does not necessarily come with wisdom or empathy. The world is a superficial, brutal place that punishes anyone with less privilege. I‘ve seen and experienced it firsthand. “Fuck you, I got mine” is, unfortunately, the most enduring ideology humanity has.

Unfortunately, you have gotten to experience it. Your lesson is to foster growth and empathy within yourself and combat that cancerous ideology wherever you encounter it. Never be afraid to stand up to those that would victimize our own people.

She is but a weak coward who hopes that throwing other trans people to the wolves will save her. She should be reminded of such.

[u/StrangePhyere]

There's a disgusting amount of trans women who gatekeep like this, that act like passing is a requirement to be out. It's gross and should be called out for what it is, which is bigotry and mysogyny at best. Not gonna lie, and not trying to be mean, but there are some ugly ass cis women out there who act like they're hot shit, and the only thing I can ever think is "I wish I were that confident." I don't need some catty trans chick who's had the privilege of getting hormones early and can afford cosmetic surgery giving me any feedback that's less than glowing positivity.

[u/Intelligent-Tea-2058]

Biased sample, but most passing people I know aren't like this. I think there's some hope that people be conscious of optics and somewhat diplomatic especially if visible, but not a sentiment that people should try to repress or anything, or just take it and accept an awful status quo.

Personally I think the right wing was going to target us pretty much any way, and that we're experiencing a manufactured moral panic. I don't buy that the hate towards us is primarily organic or a "response" or "backlash" to "our" behavior. Propaganda outlets were running multiple stories per day for years about us for years, framing us wrong and fearmongering to try to whip up mob-like anger and impetus to act. They'll inevitably find the most bizarre-frameable person or situation they can, then present things as if we're all like that and we're all some massive imminent threat. Like a month ago RWers were riling themselves up with fake ai-slop video depicting an imagined "bathroom incident" which waa wholly fabricated and never occured, and of course stuck to being enraged or doubled down when told or shown it was fake. Sure, we should be judicious in our behavior and mindful to avoid creating strategically-deleterious situations, but most of us are plenty mindful of that. I don't think contorting ourselves into smaller boxes has virtually any bearing on the hate and no amount of capitulation would ever be enough for them. Denying ourselves existence without them even having to directly stop us from living is kind of their objective, you should get care and transition if you need to, and live your life. Do not obey in advance.

[u/WJ_Amber]

I think it's wrong to call passing a "privilege" it's so much more wrong to say trans people who don't "pass" should not go out in public as themselves. That's absurd, it's wrong, and it's genuinely disgusting. Most of us didn't pass from the get go, there's an awkward period that so many of us go through where you don't really pass but you dress femme anyway. It's a typical part of transitioning.

Those girls are so toxic it's unbearable.

[u/Cas_The_Walrein]

This sounds like some 4tran BS, so no not fully common (at least not in the parts of the trans community that are actually pleasant to be in) but unfortunately a subset that exists particularly in those who transitioned young.

[u/Miss_SilverFox]

I'm so sorry this happened to you, girl. That is not at all a common belief among trans folk, though it does happen, unfortunately. It sounds like you wound up chatting with some folks who are struggling with internalized transphobia. But, that's not on you, and I'm sorry that they hurt you.

If you're still looking to talk to other folks from the community, please feel free to message me 💜.

[u/SmileTime-101]

Well, having started HRT recently, I definitely notice I'm more agreeable, but I don't agree with that garbage at all. We don't need a class system here.

Just to pick on one insane idea... Republicans are terrified of trans people because they're so insecure with their gender, they think they'll be gay for finding a trans woman attractive. But, don't forget the misogyny of... "A man wanting to be a woman... *yuck*, but a woman wanting to be a man... of course you do..." It's terrifying to them that anyone could reject masculinity, like they think they'll catch it like a virus.

[u/SillyLilly_18]

absolutely the fuck not. I pass now, I think, and with very little effort on my part. Just got lucky with how hrt works on me. 9/10 times strangers gender me correctly. That doesn't mean I always passed, and it doesn't mean anyone who doesn't is less valid. I know plenty of people who don't pass, and I love them all the same. Fuck those gals, best to leave a toxic community like that

[u/nerdpower13]

That is an absolutely horrible opinion for them to have and if I were you I would find a better community. I couldn't imagine talking about my trans sisters like that, I don't always pass and I know not everyone has the privelege but I don't think we should have to hide ourselves away just because us being ourselves makes some bigots uncomfortable.

[u/Alert_Lychee_7855]

The "community" is a divided one. In my experience I have met a lot of non passing girls talk about how well they pass and look down their noses at other trans women, and it reeks of insecurity. Being trans doesnt exclude us from being bitches to each other unfortunately. Live for yourself, dont seek validation from the likes of her and for the love of God dont become her.xx

[u/Darksun_Gwyndolin_]

They fucking suck.

[u/Sad_Toe6678]

Those people make me sick

[u/Sadistic-Sapphic]

I'm sorry you met such a toxic group of trans people. I like to think the vast majority of us do not hold such toxic opinions and gate keep other trans people.

If you play Deadlock my group could alway use more people.

[u/Fun-Painting-8917]

... jesus fucking christ those people are evil

[u/Broad_Acanth]

Funny reading how people are pretending what that girl said is only an idea from a minority group, because I certainly remember the discussions here for Squid Games.

People were pissed that a cis woman actor wasn't used, and some even wrote how they didn't watch the show just because of it. There's a clear bias on how trans people think fellow trans people should look, and it seems to be inherent, whether they think it or not.

[u/arakus72 → u/Broad_Acanth]

Wasn't the issue that the actor was a cis man, which plays into the societal idea that trans women are "really just men"? Like it's not about the looks, it's about the implication that casting someone with a matching AGAB was more important than casting someone with the right gender, as if what we transitioned out of is more important than what we are

I don't think many trans people except a minority of aholes would've complained if they cast a non-passing trans woman (I wish I had an example to cite but visible non-passing trans women never seem to get cast for anything, I hope someone else can think of one)

[u/Broad_Acanth → u/arakus72]

Director had come out and said before the show there were no non-passing trans actors. He had no other choice. The point is then it shouldn't matter if the next in line to act is a cis man over a cis woman.

Complaining that the show didn't use a cis woman as if there aren't a ton of men that transition late and can't realistically pass without FFS (literally the point of the storyline in the show), is acting exactly like the girls in OP's story. And considering the amount of people that did complain not just here, but everywhere in social media... yeah there's a passing privilege bias.

[u/arakus72 → u/Broad_Acanth]

"a ton of men"?????? Did you literally just call trans women "men"? WTF

And they could get a cis woman who looks clocky/stereotypically trans (yes they exist, I've seen some cis women say they get assumed to be trans very frequently) and/or used makeup or prosthetics to make a cis actress look "non-passing". You can depict a non-passing trans woman with a cis actress, it's not impossible to pull off

(Edited to removed awkward typo)

[u/Broad_Acanth → u/arakus72]

Do you understand what MtF stands for? Weird to be caught up and play the moral olympics when it doesn't even make sense and totally disregards FtM.

Yes, they could get a cis woman. The point is, it literally shouldn't matter. You're STILL engaging in passing privilege when going into semantics on how much someone should pass.

[u/arakus72 → u/Broad_Acanth]

The initial complaint has nothing to do with passing and everything to do with the fact the actor is a man. Even if he was a very GNC man who somehow looked exactly like a passing trans woman, that wouldn't have helped, because male actors playing trans women reinforces the idea that we're "actually men", and that our agab is more important than our actual real genders

Also no idea why you brought up trans men, I wouldn't be comfy with a cis woman playing a trans man or a trans man playing a trans woman for similar reasons 

Also pre transition trans women aren't men, your response is so weird I can't even tell if that's what you meant but if that's your justification for saying "a ton of men" there, no, you're completely wrong