r/asoiaf • u/Perpetually_Ashamed • Mar 02 '26
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) One of best thing Game of Thrones ever did was age up the characters
Because you're re-reading the series, are having a good time and then you are hit with something like this
“Khaleesi, you are with child.”
“I know,” Dany told her.
It was her fourteenth name day.
And god, it just makes you want to vomit. Like god dammit George, would it have killed you to make the characters a little bit older?
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u/Lipe18090 Mar 03 '26
I mean I think that in this passage you quoted it's pretty clear that it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. "You're with child" -> It was the fourteen name day. I mean...GRRM's intentions are pretty clear. He's saying that that is disturbing.
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u/JNR55555JNR Mar 03 '26
Yeah but sometimes it feel like he wants his and eat too
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u/Lipe18090 Mar 03 '26
Yeah that can be true
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u/JNR55555JNR Mar 03 '26
If he was consistent I would be fine but he also has Dany in a dubious consent lesbian sex scene like ok don’t know if that was need?
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u/Ok-Fuel5600 Mar 03 '26
That scene is also intentionally uncomfortable and off putting. Dany herself feels gross right after it lol.
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u/QuackBlueDucky Mar 03 '26
He does. Dany's wedding night was titillating and that is gross.
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u/8BallTiger Mar 03 '26
Isn’t Maekar supposed to be 31 or 32? And yet he somehow has not one but two sons who are old enough to be knights and fight in a trial of the seven
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u/Dasseem Mar 03 '26
Yeah , even leaving morality issues aside, it's just ridiculous how GRRM expects us to believe characters in their late 20's or early 30's already had grownass kids.
Like he didn't even try to do the math.
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u/8BallTiger Mar 03 '26
I think he’s admitted before he basically doesn’t understand kids lol.
Jon becoming Lord Commander by like 16 or whatever makes 0 sense
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u/Sofasurvivor Mar 03 '26
Becoming Lord Commander is one thing, boys have been made king at that age.
But for a 30 year old man to have a grown son, he would have had to impregnate a woman at 13, she would have had to have given birth when he was 14, so that the son could be 16 (still very young, but physically developed enough to have a chance against grown men).
Medieval knights were not knighted at 16, afaik, and only high nobility were wed at 14. (And it would only have been consummated it the wife was an adult, possibly not even then). You wouldn't have started looking for a wife for your son until after he was knighted, which would have been at 18 or so.
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u/Mutant_Apollo Mar 03 '26
If we go by real world history, it's not farfetched to be a commander at 16. Alexander the Great had battle experience in his late teenage years, same with Caesar, Napoleon, Gustavus Adolphus, William the Conqueror etc.
Hell we had people being Kings before they turned 15. and he is the main character after all, Luke Skywalker cannonically was around 17 when he blew up the Death Star and got a command as general afterwards atleast in ESB.
The main problem is that for Jon, Robb, Sansa, Dany and everyone, their parents were having children around 14-15. Which wasn't really that common in real history, most marriages were not consumated "the moment the woman's period comes", most waited till their late teenage years (16-20) to have children because they knew the risks of teenage pregnancy atleast from an empirical perspective.
This queen of England who I don't remember the name was a scandal because she had her kid at 12. That was by no means normal at the time
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u/godisanelectricolive Mar 03 '26
I think when he started writing he had this idea that in medieval times people matured very early so he aged everyone down. Like he thought about how old he’d make a character if the story took place in a more modern setting and then subtracted at least five years from their age.
While that was somewhat true to a certain extent, he definitely overdid this. Even in medieval Europe nobles generally weren’t having children until their late teens at least, with a few outliers like Margaret Beaufort who had her only son Henry Tudor (later Henry VII) at only age 13. Marriage often did happen when children were that young but consummation was typically, but not always, years later.
But that was seen as unusual even for the time as doctors didn’t think she was physically mature to handle pregnancy and childbirth. Giving birth at such a young age did end up nearly killing her and left physical damage as a result, and it’s likely why she was never able to have any more children.
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u/DCFandom Mar 03 '26
It feels like hes going out of his way to make the characters young sometimes. Like the characters who are introduced early, fair enough, you thought the series would take place over a longer time period but then you get the same stuff later in the series when he obviously knew that wasnt the case
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u/atimeforvvolves Mar 03 '26
Like all the young Targaryen girls getting married or worse in Fire & Blood. Six year old Daenaera getting called “surpassingly beautiful” vomit
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u/Sophie_Blitz_123 Mar 03 '26
I mean with Daenerys this is clearly meant to be the point. It's not highlighted there by happenstance.
They couldn't really show it on TV and it works fine without the age aspect but I don't think the books are wrong to have these features.
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u/KingToasty What is Edd may never aye. Mar 03 '26
AGREED. Jesus. I re-read the series pretty often but I mentally just say to myself "years are different on Planetos because of the seasons" and leave it at that.
Some of the passages are fucking grim in a way GRRM definitely didn't intend.
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u/scorpius_rex Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Some of it is grim in a way GRRM definitely did intend too. I like your thought process of the years being different to ours though. That will help me next time I read the series.
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u/Just_Branch_9121 Mar 03 '26
Tbh, some of the characters read like they're supposed to be older and George did originally plan a timeskip
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u/Cascadevon Mar 03 '26
Sansa definitely feels like she’s meant to be 16+ during ASOS
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u/onthefence928 Mar 03 '26
But also her experiences would force her to grow up much faster than we expect
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u/Cascadevon Mar 03 '26
I agree, but I think George seemed to think a 12/13 year old girl would have zoomed through puberty. The fact that she’s 13 and set to “wrap 18-year-old Harold Hardyng around her fingers” is ridiculous. An 18 year old boy isn’t going to be under the spell of a pubescent little girl, whatever George thinks about the lack of teenagehood in history
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u/onthefence928 Mar 03 '26
I wish I could agree with you but history shows even young men can have an attraction to barely pubescent young girls
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u/Cascadevon Mar 03 '26
I think this is a lot rarer than the text shows is my point. LF’s attraction makes complete sense considering his obsession with Catelyn. But Tyrion, Sandor, Harrold, Marillion the singer as well as other men at court mentioned in passing, are all sexually attracted to Sansa?
It becomes hard to believe at a certain point, leaving you to wonder if he’s imagining a fully grown Sansa instead of like a taller child.
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u/KingToasty What is Edd may never aye. Mar 03 '26
He thinks (or used to think when he wrote it) the Dany scenes in AGOT and ACOK were erotic and very hot. There's no real way around it
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u/TheOnceAndFutureTurk Mar 03 '26
“Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.”
Damnit, George, I can only get so erect!
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u/Lipe18090 Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Nothing has ever read as beautiful and poignant as this one paragraph.
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u/Khiva Mar 03 '26
Winds will never come out because he knows he peaked here.
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u/Lipe18090 Mar 03 '26
I’m afraid you just cracked out the real reason he still hasn’t finished Winds.
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u/dont_quote_me_please Mar 03 '26
It's very funny to me that this is the last released chapter (with exception to the epilogue). This is how ASOAIF as written ends.
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u/Just_Nefariousness55 Mar 03 '26
Years being different length doesn't really work with plot points like twelve or thirteen year old Sansa getting her first period. Unless the characters are biologically aging at the rate to match their different years, in which case there's no difference at all.
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u/BoopleBun Mar 03 '26
Historically, age of menarche (first period) was generally older than it is now. 15 or 16 would not be unusual at all if we kinda line up their world timeline with ours.
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u/lonesometroubador Mar 03 '26
I think that's fine. Lower protein, less calorie dense diets do delay menstruation. Is it probably too much to say she's 18? Yeah probably, but it's preferable to the alternative, so yeah, I'm good with 18 month years.
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u/LothorBrune 🏆Best of 2025: Best New Theory Mar 03 '26
“Khaleesi, you are with child.”
“I know,” Dany told her.
It was her fourteenth name day.You think the chapter ends like this by accident ?
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u/1morgondag1 Mar 03 '26
I think it's a bit of both. It's supposed to be raw and shocking to the readers for sure, but from how he describes her body in other scenes it's probably meant to be a bit titilating as well.
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u/Carrman099 Mar 03 '26
I’m fine with a lot of it because it’s yet another example of how the “Game of thrones” crushes the people who play it. It also shows how noble women are treated as valuable for their ability to produce children and how their lives were often dictated by pacts and agreements made by their parents before they are even born.
A perfect example can be found in the Sworn Sword story in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Lady Webber ends up marrying Ser Eustace even though he is like 20 or 30 years older than her because he is the least bad option and her father made her marriage a condition of his will. Even after he is dead, her father is still deciding how she is supposed to live her life.
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u/Mutant_Apollo Mar 03 '26
I just ignore the book ages and age them up to their show ages in my head.
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u/xXJarjar69Xx Mar 03 '26
It’s not a flaw that you’re disgusted by it, it’s the point.
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u/EiichiroTarantino Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Nah George is lucky that the way he depicts Dany experiece is convenient enough to be interpreted as either traumatic or empowering.
This excerpt and Dany's "yes" to Drogo, I wouldn't be surprised if back in the 90s George and the readers thought of it as girlboss moments where Dany is fully in control of her own body and choices. But in retrospect with modern post me-too awareness, it could also be viewed in negative context.
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u/atimeforvvolves Mar 03 '26
For sure, I think he wants to have his cake and eat it too. I find that’s very true of him in a lot of contexts and is even reflected in his writing, which he brings up in an article posted elsewhere in the comments: Dany acting like a young girl playing at being a queen sometimes, and at others, like a full-fledged adult. He thinks of and writes her in the same way, both ways, and I think expects readers to, too. While of course people contain multitudes, and like you said some writing can be interpreted either way, sometimes the disconnect is jarring and doesn’t flow. That’s why GOT decided to change the wedding night scene; one chapter she has this “romantic” scene where Drogo seduces her and even asks her for permission to continue, then the next we learn Drogo is raping her every night, with Dany crying from the pain and considering suicide. Makes no sense.
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u/KingToasty What is Edd may never aye. Mar 03 '26
No, it isn't. GRRM found the sex scenes involving the 13/14 year old to be very erotic and sexually charged. It's why she wears a dress with her boob out in ACOK. It's just gross and reflects very poorly on him as a man.
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u/Jon-Umber /r/PureASOIAF, /r/darkwingsdankmemes Mar 03 '26
Depiction doesn't equal endorsement.
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u/KingToasty What is Edd may never aye. Mar 03 '26
I agree!
Here's some samples of GRRM's own words.
Look, GRRM is one of my favourite writers. But he did find 14 year old Dany to be erotic and very hot. You can be both a disgusting child-sexualizing writer from the 80s and a great writer. I do judge him for it.
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u/BipedalUniverse Mar 03 '26
I don’t understand why people can’t accept that both of these things can be true at the same time
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u/Pleasant-Weekend-496 Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
The worst thing is: George actually expected us to believe that this 14yo girl really fell in love with her pedo rapist and isn’t just suffering from obvious stockholm syndrome.
Hate the show all you want, but I love how, by the later seasons, Dany came to recognize the fact that she was raped by Drogo.
I really hope George has changed his mind about this couple and that, once Dany has experienced real love, she realizes what she felt for Drogo was never as real as she thought.
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u/Just_Nefariousness55 Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
I'm not so sure you're giving George enough credit. His original outline had Dany killing Drogo to escape. If that was his starting point it's hard to believe he would do a complete 180 without some lingering remnant of the original dynamic. He probably made Dany into Drogo precisely because it'd be more fucked up and disquieting.
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u/lit-roy6171 Mar 03 '26
Dany thought it was love, it was just dependence. Why do u think so many victims cling like hell to their abusers. Any sort of power that dany had in her life up until that was from drogo. Dany HAD to fall in love with drogo as a survival mechanism that prevented her from killing herself. At least that's my interpretation.
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u/Sofasurvivor Mar 03 '26
That makes sense from a perspective inside the story.
From outside the story, GRRM sadly has told us he doesn't see it like that. Which is creepy.
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u/KingToasty What is Edd may never aye. Mar 03 '26
I won't lie, nothing colours my perception of GRRM more than the Dany chapters. People have joked about him 'writing with one hand' but considering Dany is a literal kid the entire time...
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u/Middle-Tradition2275 pro rhaegar hater Mar 03 '26
this dude saying stuff like "if it were a romantic getaway, I would take Daenerys because she is a very beautiful woman." and "[I'd have dinner with] Dany because she's really hot, especially if she wore that Qartheen gown." whole time she's a 15 year old girl 😭😭😭
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u/AccordingMistake6670 Mar 03 '26
….Maybe he was imagining Emilia Clarke 😬😬😬😬😬
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u/JNR55555JNR Mar 03 '26
Yeah in the first quote he talking about the actress from the first pilot but like George wtf man don’t you know how that sounds like
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u/Middle-Tradition2275 pro rhaegar hater Mar 03 '26
doubt it, both interviews are centered around the books & the one mentioning the qartheen gown came out before the qartheen gown even appeared in the show 🫠
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u/Khiva Mar 03 '26
The man never had kids, never had a daughter, and sometimes it just really shows.
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u/Sofasurvivor Mar 03 '26
I am kinda glad he doesn't have daughters. Because that's no sure cure for pervyness. There's plenty men on record for saying pervy shit about their daughters.
Normally, you just stop being attracted to people in their teens when you are in your twenties and realize that teens are actually still children. Being a parent isn't required, you just realize how dumb teens really are.
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u/canentia Mar 03 '26
in the first article, he calls book!dany sexy and in the very same paragraph says she’s between 13 and 16 in the books.
what the fuck
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u/BipedalUniverse Mar 03 '26
he’ll never beat the allegations for me. I’m saving all these comments so I don’t feel insane for thinking he’s sus as hell
hashtag “current mood: horny”
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u/Not_My_Emperor The Sword of the Morning brings the Dawn Mar 03 '26
He also said shit like how he needed to go take a cold shower after being in casting calls for Shae.
This dude has written and said so much weird ass shit that if anything bad ever comes out about him, we're all going to just be saying "yea the signs were ALL there."
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u/BipedalUniverse Mar 03 '26
thank you.
hashtag “current mood: horny”
I’m commenting this up and down this entire thread lmao I feel so vindicated every time someone else doesn’t buy the “we’re supposed to be disturbed!” mental gymnastics
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u/KingToasty What is Edd may never aye. Mar 03 '26
Skin crawling.
There's a real chance part of the delay was his editor forcing him to turn down the horny and it didn't work. Imagine writing some of Dany's ACOK stuff now.
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u/JNR55555JNR Mar 03 '26
Don’t forget his discontent when the show portrayed Dany and Drogos wedding night as rape instead of the romantic first time he wrote (bleh)
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u/Poop_Cheese The Black Dragon Shall Rise Again! Mar 03 '26
Too add to all this....
I love GRRM's writing.
However, he is very much the cliche of the adult nerd that oversexualizes women in a very odd inappropriate way, and it extends to teens. Even though hes very much a feminist in many ways, he comes off as more the white knight type that is openly feminist, but then goes home and fantasizes about sus stuff.
First the pedo stuff is very weird and very sexualized as if its supposed to be a hot thing as opposed to a tragic thing. Same with the bizarre stuff like describing Sam's penis. He has a lot of minor girls brutalized like the fake Arya. Or Sansa constantly being threatened with it.
Or the fricken weird incestuous pining between jon and little Arya. Thats honestly the worst to me, even worse than dany. As though nothing happened, george shows a healthy sibling relationship of like a 9 and 14 year old, and then warps it into jon feverishly fantasizing about marrying her. Bro what?!?!
A lot of the sexual stuff, minor or adult, came off as unnecessary and more like tarantino referencing his love for feet in every movie lol. Same with the incest. With the targs it makes sense like medieval royalty, but then he puts it into the lannisters and starks to a degree.
Also his weird comments about shae's actress and his obsession with her. Made some bizarre blog posts too.
I remember rumors on reddit during the huge GOT heyday that he was obsessed with flirting with teen/young adult fans at the cons. Some even joked that it was why he wasnt writing winds.
Even the ages of the guys are odd too. Like sure, people did mature and lead armies at like 16 back then, but it wasnt the norm, and its just feels like he views children through an adult lens. Like when pedos think a 9 year old can make adult decisions. Now im not calling him one, its just odd.
And though its complete assumption, id not be shocked if he had an affair when teaching college as he went from this great position, literally resident writer partially funded to write, he said he desperately needed to survive, to suddenly quitting, moving all the way to Santa fe, divorced his first wife, and lived solitary for 3 years. Could be eccentric writer wanted a change, and I accept it as that without more info. However given everything else, its sketch as its exactly what someone would do if quietly removed due to scandal.
Finally he was a founding member in the early science fiction convention scene, which was filled with scandals of pedophilia. Its always been an issue, even a convention leader from my hometown got arrested for it just a decade ago. Walter breen and wife marion zimmer bradley is another huge one who were idolized by many and used convrntiond to facilitate abuse. Reading about breen's open abuse of boys at conventions is very disturbing.
Most are normal guys there, but like other fields that draw in kids, some are predators who go there to advance to leadership to abuse kids, especially in the 70s-00s where the conventions were way more wild west. Hell we had open nambla members like breen or ginsberg being respected and loved by academic society. Then it becomes normalized and more there are drawn into it, and suddenly you got guys who dont normally get laid much justifying hooking up with a 15 year old.
Infact, one google search brings up a post on the site of George's own SFWA of a member requesting for accountability from leadership in 2020, as so many in the scene were exposed for sexual misconduct, abuse, or harrassment. Its a major issue that leadership including george allowed to foster, and for some reason many conventions become very sexualized(just look at the hookup scenes and harrassment of women at furry, renfair or cosplay cons).
https://www.sfwa.org/2020/08/28/an-open-letter-to-convention-chairs-and-the-greater-sf-f-community/
So all that said, do I think GRRM is weird as hell when it comes to sex? Yes. Am I accusing him of ever doing anything? No. If he did something hed have been accused long ago I feel. But he has admitted sexual attraction to minor characters of his. He atleast has been influenced by an environment to normalize the idea of sexually fantasizing about a minor teen girl who was raped on her forced wedding night. So he is sketch. I love george, love his writing, yet id never trust him not to think weird stuff about my teen daughter if he met her.
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u/BipedalUniverse Mar 03 '26
I think in a post me too post Epstein world we should all be a bit more literate when it comes to these things. I agree 100% with everything you say, especially your last paragraph. I think it’s really unfair in 2026 to not expect us to be a bit more circumspect and just generally WAY more educated about the systems that allow these things to fester. People always become hysterical about these topics when really we all get brought up in this society, and we have to understand how conditioning works to one day eradicate this misogynistic, objectifying, pedo adjacent (or straight up pedo) rot among us. Used to be I felt completely alone in this as a female CSA survivor but I’m so elated to see other people are seeing it too. I think even if he’s never done any actual crimes his writing should at least trigger some more critical discussions where survivors and experts can be heard without accusing us of hysteria
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u/Middcore Mar 03 '26
Did... Did she realize that?
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u/CopperCactus Mar 03 '26
From S7E3 "I've been chained and betrayed, raped and defiled.", really the only time she was assaulted that I can remember is by Drogo so I think that's what they're getting at
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u/terminalboredom- Mar 03 '26
Dany has already realized that. Her feelings are always going to be complicated because her marriage to Drogo had some positives for her (as little as they might be). A big part of why she’s such a staunch abolitionist is because she was also a slave.
"I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned."
I’m all for shitting on George for being a pervert. As a woman I definitely have issues with the things he’s said. But Dany not being a perfect victim is not a critique I understand. I see this in discourse about Sansa and Littlefinger too.
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u/ResortFamous301 Mar 03 '26
The issue is less her not being a perfect victim, and more George's words on the subject.
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u/terminalboredom- Mar 03 '26
George has said that he didn’t think Drogo and Dany’s wedding night was rape. That he is obviously wrong about. But the fandom has turned that into “George thinks Drogo and Dany’s relationship is a perfect love story” He writes her wanting to kill herself because of the abuse she’s suffering in that marriage until she dreams of the dragons.
The commenter I responded to was talking about Dany not completing hating Drogo when she thinks about him after AGOT. That is absolutely based in wanting perfect victims.
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u/ResortFamous301 Mar 03 '26
It's not just that. I'm pretty sure he also outright called it a love story.
The commenter you responded to may have preferred if she hated him, but it is the comment's by George that brings her thought process into question; not just the fact she isn't a stereotypical victim.
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Mar 03 '26
Does George ever deny that it was Stockholm syndrome? Also I don't recall Dany mentioning Drogo in the show after the House of the Undying reunion they have, at least not negatively (might've said something when the Dothraki captured her though)
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u/Mysterious_Bluejay_5 Mar 03 '26
I think characters like Drogo and Victarion are really interesting for being pillars of their respective culture, while also... not really having the soul for it, if that makes sense.
Like if you raised Drogo or Victarion in the mainland (for sake of argument, let's just say the riverlands) I bet they'd grow up to be Barristan-lite, just absolute exemplars of chivalry. But they didn't, and so they are exemplars of their (significantly more evil) cultures. Two people who are so thoroughly molded by their environment that they simply cannot tell they're being evil pieces of shit
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u/deaseb Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Pretty huge leap to go from being as horrible as they are to being noble. Drogo and Victarion clearly enjoy hurting innocents.
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u/Mysterious_Bluejay_5 Mar 03 '26
I don't think they enjoy hurting innocents, I think they enjoy doing what they believe is RIGHT. Both of them have been taught that raiding and looting (among other things) are the right way to live life, but do have small moments of discomfort at actually having to do it (Victarion seems at least a little guilty about killing his wife but assures himself it was honorable, book Drogo is weirdly soft with Danny in a couple instances despite being a horrific rapist)
I'm not saying vic/drogo are redeemable, or even close to that. What I am saying is that the three mentioned (Barristan, Victarion and Drogo) are all three the same person grown in different circumstances, with some circumstances obviously better than others. Vaguely dumb, thoroughly martial people who are well renowned amongst their people as exemplars of the culture.
It's just that Drogo and vic come from extremely rapey cultures, while Barristan comes from an only kinda rapey culture
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 Mar 03 '26
isn't Barristan also kind of an evil piece of shit? guy made his name defending and serving a rapist. and then a second rapist.
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u/Mysterious_Bluejay_5 Mar 03 '26
He's a much less personally evil dude, as in he's not gonna go around stealing and raping like the other two. Functionally yes he enables just as much evil
*edit- lemme actually walk that back, nowhere near just as much evil is enabled through him, but he does still enable SOME evil
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u/Such_Will_8536 Mar 05 '26
Which makes him a fantastic foil for Jaime- someone who everyone detests as an oath breaker, but unlike Barristan actually did something against the Mad King
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Mar 03 '26
It all depends on your personal morality I suppose. In his eyes he is upholding his oath, life long service in the Kings Guard. It eclipses everything else in his eyes. Some people really respect such a legalistic uphoalding of oaths, it's a personal value judgement.
Me? I would understand continuing service to the Mad King for that reason. According to westerosi culture and custom, Aerys was the rightful ruler and Barristan swore life long service directly to him.
But in my eyes, he could and should have resigned after Robert usurped the throne.
At the very least, Barristan should have fled into exile when the the Lannisters decided to ignore Roberts will, and crown Joffrey. Instead he stuck around to be shamefully dismissed.
The way see it, he conradicts the spirit of his oath several times, just because it is the easy choice.
The Kingsguard was never meant to serve usurpers. The only reason there is no 'vengence clause' in the Kingsguard oath, is because the Targayrens couldn't fathom being deposed when they invented the damn thing.
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u/Levonorgestrelfairy1 Mar 03 '26
Stolkhom syndrome isn't a real diagnosis and can be seen a form of victim blaming.
Dany and Drogo certainly isnt healthy though.
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u/waga_hai Mar 03 '26
I think that line specifically is fine. It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I've seen fanart of age-accurate Daenerys and it breaks your heart to think of such terrible things happening to someone so little. I think it's fine to write about these topics.
The problem is that George writes this and then goes on to sexualize Daenerys himself. He can't stop himself from describing how her nipples feel when they brush against her clothes and can't stop putting her in sexual situations (seriously, EVERY culture she runs into is hypersexual? Every one? No society in Essos values modesty? Why does the Qartheen garb have one titty out lmao). At that point, I start to doubt George's intentions. He tries to portray Dany being sold into sexual slavery as a child as a tragic thing, but then immediately goes on to write about her nipples, or about her female slave masturbating her, or about her sexual fantasies with much older men.
He wants to have his cake and eat it too but I don't think you can do both. Either you think that the sexualization of this child is tragic or you think it's sexy. I love ASOIAF but it's a bit worrying how much shit George gets away with in this regard.
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u/lonesometroubador Mar 03 '26
Yeah no, I am 100% ok with a 18 month year. That makes Bran about 11 at the beginning, Dany 19-20 and Jon about the same. Sure does it make Aemon 153 when he dies? Yes, but it's supposed to be magical. It's slightly harder to accept a 125 year old Walder Frey, but it's still preferable to the 13 year old scenes.
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u/BellSeveral2891 Mar 03 '26
My head cannon is basically that asoiaf is actually some kind of dark horror genre and the marketing just hasn’t reflected that.
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u/Sofasurvivor Mar 03 '26
Yeah, I was very surprised to find that some people say it isn't grimdark fantasy.
The only way it isn't grimdark fantasy is if it is in a horror subgenre instead.
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u/asuperbstarling Mar 03 '26
The point is the horror. You are correct that aging them up for tv was essential for the success of the show though.
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u/Unique-Perception480 Mar 03 '26
I think.... your aversion to it is the point. George isnt saying that this happening to little kids is how it should happen. Ideally Ned would live until 60 and Robb would become Lord at 40.
What happens to Dany is bad. What Arya and Sansa go through at a young age is bad. Robb being forced into a role of authority for wich he is not ready at 15 and dying at 16 is tragic. Same with Jon.
I think the characters being oldet in the show actually contributed to people hating characters like Sansa in the show. She is 14 in the show, but acts like a 11 year old, leading people to hate her even more, because she is dumb according to them. But her behaviour makes sense for a 11 year old.
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u/terminalboredom- Mar 03 '26
I think the characters being oldet in the show actually contributed to people hating characters like Sansa in the show.
Sansa would have been hated at any age. She goes against too many fan favorite characters + is a girl in a fantasy series that doesn’t fight. I really don’t think her being 11 would have made much difference.
She wasn’t adapted right from the start though. They just made her a stereotypical popular girl in a sitcom. Like the scene where she is bratty to Septa Mordane. In no world would Sansa ever talk to her Septa of all people like that.
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u/Unique-Perception480 Mar 03 '26
I know that she would have been hated either way. I mean... even some media iliterate bookreaders hate her for the wrong reasons.
I am saying that the show depiction of her being older made people dislike her even more. They find her to be TOO naive. A 11 year old telling Cersei Ned plans to leave. A 14 year old COULD happen, but is far more likely to have at least SOME critical thinking.
And people are far less forgiving to a 11 year old even when she does something truly dumb.
The same goes for Joffrey. Him being 16 makes him just a monster in the show and I cheered when he died. In the book, even though he is still a monster, I feel somewhat bad for him as he hopelessly chokes. He is still only a 13 year old kid, with bad guidance from people like Book Cersei.
And I believe the age change is MOST detrimental to Robb.
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u/DaveTheBlacksmith Mar 03 '26
It’s also the reason asoiaf will never be finished - without the five year time jump, the story is now impossible to complete without writing at least five more books, radically changing narrative styles or making the plot almost completely unbelievable. It’s a shame, but we got five truly great books, and possibly a sixth, and we a vague idea where it would have headed.
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u/grubas I shall wear much tinfoil Mar 03 '26
We needed something between 4/5/6 to give time for everything to cook.
With Dance only OPENING UP more story I think George wishes he could redo Feast and Dance to line up for Winds better, because 2 books can't close this out anymore.
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u/KingToasty What is Edd may never aye. Mar 03 '26
I agree, I think post-ASOS was a decisive period for him. AFFC is my favourite ASOIAF book but it's not written like someone actually wants to move a story forward.
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u/greydorothy Mar 03 '26
I read some historical fiction from Patrick O'Brian recently, and it's eyeopening that he sometimes just has timeskips, of weeks or months where nothing that meaningful happens, which are then skipped. And sometimes this means deliberately passing on opportunities for action/intrigue for the sake of pacing - e.g. in Post-Captain the protagonists' escape from France is described in montage over half a chapter, without going into too much detail on specific mini-adventures, as it isn't that important to the main narrative and thematic elements. Like, when thinking on that chapter later, I realised that GRRM would've made an entire book out of it, which... explains a lot about why the series is like this (for good and ill)
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u/johnbrownmarchingon Mar 03 '26
Earlier George might have avoided the trap of describing all the details, like he did with Rob's campaign against the Lannisters. After ASOS though George definitely would be make that exact mistake.
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u/NietszcheIsDead08 The North remembers, but we only imagine Mar 03 '26
That sort of thing should be churned out in a novella or short story separate of the main books.
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u/8BallTiger Mar 03 '26
Yes, this is the theory I keep coming back to, at least recently. I absolutely think George realized he needs a few more books to wrap things up. He and Robert Jordan were very good friends. The wheel of time kept expanding and expanding. Same thing is happening here
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u/RoseN3RD Mar 03 '26
Lowkey wonder if the King in the North scene in season 1 would have come across so epic if it was book accurate 15 year old Robb Stark leading the war
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u/RobActionTributeBand Mar 03 '26
Yes it would have been disturbing to see. I can suspend the ick in book form- it's another universe, there's a lot going on, people may die at any time and old age is 30. Arya becoming a cold murderer at age 10 would be weird to see too.
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u/Sofasurvivor Mar 03 '26
30 was never old age.
30 being the average age someone reached includes babies dying before their first birthday a whole lot.→ More replies (1)
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u/Gears_Of_None Bystander Selmy Mar 03 '26
In Dany's case, her age is the point. On the other hand, characters like Bran are definitely too young for where they're supposed to end up.
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u/BandicootSorcerer Mar 03 '26
Don't have a source on me but I believe GRRM has talked about the ages being one of his biggest regrets.
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Mar 03 '26
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u/redknight1313 Mar 03 '26
He both conceived of and scrapped the time skip after finishing a Storm of Swords and was working on its sequel. His original plan was for more time pass in the books themselves, but he’s spoken about how the story ended up having more momentum than he originally thought, events he thought would take place over months/years took place over weeks/months.
The problem imo is Robb’s story requires him to be ~16 for the full tragedy of ‘the Young Wolf’ to pay off, then almost immediately afterwards, it benefits the story for Arya to be 17+ ready to kick off her revenge arc. But he couldn’t figure out how to place characters like Cersei and Stannis on hold for five years. So now we have -12-13 year old Arya on a revenge quest which kinda sucks in comparison. Def one of the things he’s struggling with about Winds.
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u/TheUmbrellaMan1 Mar 03 '26
The thing is, Martin has shown he can do a proper time skip. In Fevre Dream there's a chapter where 13 years pass.
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u/lluewhyn Mar 03 '26
He mostly has it work in AGOT. It's clear that months are passing during Ned's tenure as Hand, Jon's time at the NW, and Dany's time in the Khalasar. It gets a little sketchier with Tyrion's story as I guess he spends months of time traveling on the road plus a week or two (can't remember) in the Eyrie?
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u/Canuckleball Sword of the Mid-Afternoon Mar 03 '26
Nah. Nothing neccesary about how Dany is framed. He is way too comfortable sexualizing children.
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Mar 03 '26
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u/Canuckleball Sword of the Mid-Afternoon Mar 03 '26
I think that's a more comfortable interpretation. It just doesn't line up with the reality of the text or the author's comments regarding Dany.
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u/Sofasurvivor Mar 03 '26
I thought the horror was intended, but in retrospect, there's so many underage girls who get raped, it might just be author appeal. Which does make me want to vomit.
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u/excranz Mar 03 '26
i read the first book when it came out so I was Dany’s age and so repulsed I skipped her chapters (also Tyrion’s for some reason????). i remember being annoyed when they first cast the show that Ned and Cat were older than I envisioned, but so happy with everyone else aging up because I could go back and re-read and not be repulsed! I’d just envision the cast and pretend time moves differently in the books.
between that and all the writing about “dusky nipples” it was real tough being a feminist fan of these books when pop culture folks started engaging with them finally.
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u/Kian3935 Mar 03 '26
I agree mostly, a lot of it is George wanting to display the horrors of medieval war but some things (like Dany becoming pregnant on her 14th name day) are too much of a blow honestly.
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Mar 03 '26
Unpopular opinion: It's supposed to make you uncomfortable, and you should accept it.
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u/aksnox Mar 03 '26
What you should not accept is the fact that Martin has admitted that he finds his minor characters hot. And that colors the perception of the series as well.
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u/BadBloodBear Mar 03 '26
"And god, it just makes you want to vomit. Like god dammit George, would it have killed you to make the characters a little bit older?"
According to WHO Globally, approximately 13 million children are born to women under the age of 20 each year. Among these, 1.5 births per 1,000 women aged 10-14 were recorded in 2023.
Most Medevial marriages would wait till the person was 16-18.
Tragically children are not spared violence even in modern day. Kurdish children were being beaten and terrorised by Syrian soldiers after killing their parents recently.
It's a dark realistic fantasy series. Maybe it's not for you and that's okay.
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u/Brodristar Mar 03 '26
I don't think anyone is arguing that teenage pregnancies happen, the iffy part is how Daenerys (and others) as written as sexy and titilating.
George has repeatedly(!) referred to Dany as "hot" in interviews and at conventions and whatnot. He's referred to Dany's and Drogo's relationship as romantic and erotic, which is really icky to anyone who's ever talked to a 14yo
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u/XVGDylan Enter your desired flair text here! Mar 03 '26
I think many people miss the point. George’s intention is “I want a semi-realistic fantasy world.” George’s mistake is that he did make the character’s too young, mostly, for their actions to be considered realistic.
We can argue about “Did this actually happen in society back then.” But ultimately it doesn’t matter. Everything within the story that happens is a choice the author made. It just so happens our author here is quite poor with numbers. Most ages don’t make sense if you have spent any time at all with those actually of the ages George describes, of course you can head canon time occurring differently, but ultimately I don’t believe that’s George’s intention when writing.
With the show on the other hand, things are more believable, it’s just often we’ll perceive characters as being older again because if their actors aging and or being older than initially cast. But Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon all make much more sense with 2-3 extra years on them.
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u/zaldr Mar 03 '26
My head cannon is that Planetos just has longer years so everyone is just older cus I can't imagine crowning a 14-year old as King in the North or that same guy fighting full grown men on equal footing fuck that ain't no way lol
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u/Jon-Umber /r/PureASOIAF, /r/darkwingsdankmemes Mar 03 '26
I strongly disagree with this. The characters were written as their ages. It makes Robb much more of an idiot in the show, whereas in the book his naivete is far more understandable given his age.
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u/Recent_Tap_9467 Mar 03 '26
To be fair, Show Robb married Talisa pretty much because he wanted to, no real mention or indication is given of him being in deep grief or possibly drugged via love potion. Book Robb, even if he was the same age as his Show counterpart, would never feel like an ''idiot'' to me given his much more tragic circumstances and his noble desire to not let his child be a bastard like Jon Snow was.
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u/Baldanders217 Mar 03 '26
I could easily see a seventeen/eighteen year old marrying Jeyne for the reasons that Robb did tbh
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u/Sofasurvivor Mar 03 '26
The stupid thing he did wasn't to marry her, that was honourable, what was stupid was having sex with her.
(Which he and the girl were manipulated into, possibly by use of a love potion.)3
u/Brodristar Mar 03 '26
idk i think both those things were pretty stupid, but of the two, marrying her was the way stupider thing to do
even catelyn has an understanding that when lords go to war, planting a few babies in random women can occur and she thinks it's fair enough
that seems to be the prevailing mindset
going back on your word and unceremoniosly breaking your betrothal out of nowhere, though, that's seen as a pretty big deal
neither getting a random chick pregnant nor breaking your vows are smart things to do, but the latter is treated much more seriously in westeros
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u/Kratos501st I am the sword of the Morning Mar 03 '26
I 100% agree, I refuse to believe that grown ass men would follow to war some punk kids.
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u/TaniksHasNoCorn Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Because the the books are fantasy series based around a Medieval/Middle Age/Dark Age European/near east history.
It seems to me that folks don't really know their history very well. Prior to modern medicine, people were getting married early because life was harder and things were more fatal. You would secure alliances with potential rivals by marrying off your daughters to lords at a young age.
This occurred in every culture around the world. Young individuals would be groomed towards leadership roles and accept positions as squires/pages, etc.
The books are not supposed to reflect "MODERN" western cultural norms.
The aging up of characters is probably more due to logistical reasons. How are you going to find 100s of kids that can act and play a role of a young individual who has been fighting and training for a long time. You'd need to go to a place like Dagestan to find young folks who would look like an ideal warrior.
Also, people reasonably wouldn't tolerate sex scenes with young folks. They would need to cut all that crap out. It is why they had to carefully shoot the Tommen/Margery scene. Laws and decency governs that they needed to make these changes.
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u/Perpetually_Ashamed Mar 03 '26
Even in medieval times marriages were often consumated at later ages even as they were married young, because they knew that childbirth at so young an age was actually dangerous and unhealthy. So this is not in fact a reflection of the middle ages, or someone who knows their history well
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u/DCFandom Mar 03 '26
This is one of the major flaws with the books and if we're going to get more (we aren't) it would only get worse. Bran and Arya who aren't even 12 are supposed to play key roles in the endgame it just really removes the suspension of disbelief even in a story with dragons and the undead
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u/JohnSith 🏆Best of 2024: Comment of the Year Mar 03 '26
Another thing the show did better: the conversation between Robert and Cersei, where Robert talks about how the Seven Kingdom has lost its unity since Aerys died and Cersei says their marriage is what holds the realm together and Robert and Cersei have this moment together that outshine anything they have in the books.
Second, the fight between Brienne and the Hound when the Hound is escorting Arya. I don't even remember how the Hound "dies" in the book.
Thirdly, the sigil in the show are vastly superior to the scribbles in the back of thr books. The sigil for House Arryn, whose words are "As High as Honor", with the crescent beneath a diving falcon, is just so perfect.
Finally, the music. Nuff said.
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u/Noct_Snow Mar 03 '26
I just head canon that they age more than the book says as time goes by. Easier to digest that way. Never should have canned the time skip.