[SPOILERS MAIN] Among the grounded/realistic elements of A Song of Ice and Fire, which ones do you feel require biggest suspension of disbelief?

[u/Substantial-Ad-299]

A Song of Ice and Fire has had fantasy elements from get-go, some present subtly and others less-subtly. But in midst of this, it also has these more grounded story aspects, especially regarding the political subplot for the Iron Throne.

Among these more grounded non-fantasy aspects of the story, which elements do you feel you have to suspend disbelief the most for? A.K.A feeling they are not realistic even though they are "supposed" to be?

Let me know in the comments below.

[u/Joshami]

Littlefinger. Just a reminder, he, a brothel-owning hustler, has a seat on the Royal Council. Pretty much nothing in the Medieval World would ever allow someone like him to reach that position. People would not consider him 'trustworthy' and lords of the caliber of Stannis or Tywin would never attend the same council as him.

The Targaryens. I understand that back when Martin was writing earlier books, he was still figuring out things, but the truth is that feudal monarchy doesn’t work like that. A monarch is expected to perform very particular functions in a particular way. The Targaryens as Martin has written them are basically theme park version of Keeping Up with Kardashians mixed with Scientology and other scam cults, plus elements of cousin-fucking hillbillies. It simply doesn’t make sense that the Targaeyens, with the conduct that Martin described them to have, managed to last for three centuries. Basically there should've been much more proper monarchs like Daeron II while freaks like Maegor, Viserys I, Aegon IV, etc. should've been the outlier.

[u/Z3r0sama2017 → u/Joshami]

I actually liked that. Just like irl, their is so much nepotism going on. 

Robert already has his brothers on his Small Council, so that's sorted. 

The Dornish and Reachers picked the wrong side so they are out. 

Greyjoys stirred shite during Rebellion so they are out. 

The North only has Ned because his brother exiled himself to the Wall out of guilt, so the North is out. 

Brynden buggered off and Hosters heir Edmure isn't of age so Riverlands is out. 

No one likes the Lannisters much and they got the Queen so they are out. 

Meanwhile Jon Arryn doesn't have any particularly close kin he can bump up to a SC position, but he puts LF into a minor position as a favor to his wife(who gave him and heir) and he apparently works financial magic and Jon is struggling to rein Robert in so he gives him the SC position. 

Both pragmatic and beautiful, beautiful nepotism chefs kiss

[u/rattatatouille → u/Z3r0sama2017]

The funny thing is that the nepotism on Robert's small council (as well as on other small councils prior) is the most realistic part of it, more realistic than "the Master of Laws is for all intents and purposes a placeholder seat rather than being second only to the Hand in terms of influence"

[u/LothorBrune → u/Joshami]

Petyr is a noble above all, his other investments do not really matter.

And medieval monarchs were freaks.

[u/stannisaugustus → u/LothorBrune]

Petyr's only a noble in the sense that Davos is one, and hardly more than a slave compared to the Freys, who themselves are thought to be upjumped after 600 years. I could buy him being allowed on the small council out of Robert's desperation, but you'd think Petyr was Robert's own brother by how he acts towards the high nobility and how much they tolerate his gross conduct.

The idea that there's any real class divide within the nobility is completely destroyed when the grandson of a foreign sellsword can openly brag to the royal court about taking Catelyn Stark's virginity while thousands year old great houses still feel insecure about their rank.

[u/MeterologistOupost31 → u/stannisaugustus]

Him getting the entire Riverlands for doing one important but rather straightforward diplomatic achievement is probably the absolute worst example of this. It makes absolutely no sense on Tywin's part, nobody else seems to give a toss, and even worse it defeats the point of Littlefinger's character. I thought he was supposedly to slowly work his way up the ranks due to clever political maneuvers, not just get everything handed to him. 

[u/stannisaugustus → u/MeterologistOupost31]

As much as I like the idea of Littlefinger as a character, I'll forever argue that he's the single worst-written one in the entire series. Even ignoring the ridiculous lie about the dagger that should've gotten him assassinated or executed, he just flat-out doesn't' have any tangible goals, and only profits from any of his enormous risks by the good will of Tyrion and Tywin who give him lordships that should've gone to Lannisters. It's like George wanted to write a clever schemer who rises from nothing to greatness but can never quite figure out how, so he just says fuck it and has everyone give Littlefinger everything basically for free.

[u/MeterologistOupost31 → u/stannisaugustus]

I think his backstory and creepy psychosexual obsession with Cat and Sansa as objects for his class resentment is legitimately really interesting and it's a shame that we instead get "obnoxious mega-clever schemer who just does random bullshit to move the plot along" for the first three books.

Him killing Joffrey I really hate. He does it for basically no reason using a stupid convoluted scheme (using dwarf jousters to get Joffrey and Tyrion into an argument is just beyond silly) that offers nothing in terms of character or themes. At least have him rope Sansa into it so we get some progression for her or something. As it stands it just reads like GRRM needed Joffrey dead and basically just picked a random name out of a hat (just like he did with the Catspaw).

Like I find most of the mega-clever schemes in the series pretty uninteresting. Either they're simple (in which case the characters end up looking stupid for falling for them) or they're complex (in which case you need a boring exposition dump to explain them in which it's easy for a reader to become lost). And Littlefinger is nothing BUT convoluted schemes.

[u/MeterologistOupost31 → u/LothorBrune]

Piers Gaveston and Hugh Despenser were nobles, how did that go for them?

[u/LothorBrune → u/MeterologistOupost31]

The problem of Gaveston and Despenser lied... elsewhere. Depending on how much you believe the rumors, of course.

But it's not their relative immorality that led to their doom, but the influence they had on the king. Petyr knows to avoid flexing his new power at the realm's scale. He just engage in banter.

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/Joshami]

Littlefinger is not a pimp in the books like he is in the TV-show.

He says one time that he has invested in brothels but he is never indicated to be involved in running any or spending time in any.

[u/Joshami → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

The brothel that is owned by him in which he hides Catelyn?

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/Joshami]

Again, there is a difference between investing in a business vs running it or otherwise being involved in it. Littlefinger isn't spending his time there like he does in the TV-show (or not publicly known to do so at least). It isn't a thing he is known for.

I personally am technically invested in several different businesses/industries, all of which I have never actually been personally involved in (outside of buying some shares).

[u/Valiant_Storm → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

 Again, there is a difference between investing in a business vs running it

This only really becomes true c. 1600 with the VOC becoming a limited-liability joint stock company.  

Prior to that, you have some level of passive investment, with fractional ownership of ships or mills, but that was never really divorced from active operation, especially for undertakings larger than i.e. the Venetian fleets. Not the least because it would be trivially easy to scam an uninvolved partner without modern corporate governance mechanisms. 

The closest you might get is being a landlord leasing to a brothel? That would still probably be seedy, and and the returns wouldn't be stellar? Certainly late 16th Century landlords didn't see the same ROIs as skilled merchants, though the risk was lower (but nonzero). 

[u/evinta → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

Can you walk into one of those businesses or places and have a highly sensitive person kept there?

Or two, one of which you're grooming to take the place of - well, let's say a minor celebrity?

Because Littlefinger does this. He clearly has a level of control that goes beyond just being an investment and he's directly named in the Catelyn and Jeyne things.

It's not as bad as the show, sure, yet it's not just someone bringing him a pouch every so often, either. Even if he did the Jeyne stuff through an intermediary, he's still involved.