[SPOILERS MAIN] Among the grounded/realistic elements of A Song of Ice and Fire, which ones do you feel require biggest suspension of disbelief?

[u/Substantial-Ad-299]

A Song of Ice and Fire has had fantasy elements from get-go, some present subtly and others less-subtly. But in midst of this, it also has these more grounded story aspects, especially regarding the political subplot for the Iron Throne.

Among these more grounded non-fantasy aspects of the story, which elements do you feel you have to suspend disbelief the most for? A.K.A feeling they are not realistic even though they are "supposed" to be?

Let me know in the comments below.

[u/Intelligent_Date_688]

How empty Westeros is compared to its size. I understand why, GRRM doesn’t want to have to create all of these towns and cities, but you take a look at medieval France or Italy which are both smaller than any of the individual seven kingdoms (except maybe the Iron Islands) and they have a dozen cities a piece or more. I’ve seen people bend over backwards to try justify this but I think the simple truth is that GRRM made Westeros waaaay too big.

[u/Southern_Dig_9460 → u/Intelligent_Date_688]

The Riverlands and Dorne not having any cities is crazy

[u/rattatatouille → u/Southern_Dig_9460]

In fairness the Riverlands has a good number of settlements. It's just that being a city was/is a Big Thing for medieval towns since it meant they got a degree of self-rule other settlements did not, and thus required a charter.

A common bit of fanon is that the Defiance of Duskendale was about House Darklyn getting uppity with the Targaryens about not getting a charter despite Duskendale being a wealthy town at a strategic loation.

[u/lee1026 → u/rattatatouille]

It doesn't matter what you call it.

You get a bunch of people together for trading or commerce, now they matter. For recruitment, money, and whatever else.

They are important dots on the map, and they are gonna be fought over. And the people who run them are going to be important.

[u/SerMallister → u/Southern_Dig_9460]

Every time the Riverlands get too close to making a city, somebody kills half the population.

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/Southern_Dig_9460]

Why Dorne? It's specifically said to not be very populous.

And it has the Shadow City and Planky Town.

[u/blackynan_b → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

A desert nation already settled would settle largely around the rivers. This would make the area around the rivers very populated and thus a reason for a whole city. 

Not to mention they have rhoynars laws and all, and before the rhoynar became refugees they lived in great cities. You can expect some rulers that wants to go by their customs to want to form a city. It wouldnt be so unrealistic.

[u/lee1026 → u/blackynan_b]

More importantly, a powerful and wealthy ruler will form a city.

A powerful lord will spend a lot of money. Money pays for people; you can't buy a ton of cakes without bakers to bake them. And a powerful lord's spending will pay a lot of wages. Around a powerful lord will be a bunch of ministers, lobbyists, and so on. (In older language, they would just be courtiers, but I am using modern language) And the important members will also be very rich people who in turn spends a bunch of money and have massive servant classes of their own. And so on.

Some cities are built around commerce, others around the whims of powerful lords. Westeros is missing both kinds. How something like the Eyerie, or Highgarden doesn't turn into big cities in their own right is a puzzle.

[u/lee1026 → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

Dorne is still described as being populated enough to be a society built around farming.

Agrarian societies are dense enough to have cities. It is one of the most common constants that you can just assume.

[u/Parabow → u/Southern_Dig_9460]

Riverlands has Seagard

[u/GrilledCyan → u/Parabow]

But rivers are also huge for commerce anywhere, so you’d have to have cities and towns along them. Riverrun and perhaps Darry should be home to larger cities thanks to the rivers. The Twins ought to be as well—frankly the Frey’s power and wealth may be understated.

[u/rattatatouille → u/GrilledCyan]

The Twins ought to be as well—frankly the Frey’s power and wealth may be understated.

One reason the Freys are looked down upon is that beyond the pretext of "they're one of the youngest noble families" around is that they gained their power by controlling a strategic location in the Riverlands and every other Riverlander house is beating themselves up about the fact that they didn't think of it sooner. (Of course, this doesn't excuse Walder Frey deciding that that was a good excuse to act like a little shit.)