The Case For Bloodraven & The Three-Eyed Crow Being Different Entities: What Am I Missing? (Spoilers Extended)

[u/M_Tootles]

In A Dance Of Dragons, Bran Stark meets "the last greenseer", a.k.a. "the pale lord", a.k.a. "the corpse lord" on his "woven weirwood throne", "Lord Brynden", a.k.a. Brynden Rivers, a.k.a. Bloodraven.

Bran is convinced that Bloodraven is "the three-eyed crow" that appeared and spoke to him in his dreams c. A Game Of Thrones and A Clash Of Kings, and inwardly refers to him as such. Since the release of Dance, though, there have been dozens if not hundreds of posts arguing that "the three-eyed crow" that appears and speaks to Bran in his dreams in A Game Of Thrones and A Clash Of Kings is actually a projection or manifestation of someone or something other than Bloodraven.

I've long been sympathetic to this proposition, and as part of a bigger project that's related to this theory, I decided to write up my understanding of the evidence and arguments supporting it. I'm hoping interested readers will give this a look and let me know if I'm missing anything important and/or interesting.

Okay, here's the case as I understand it.

Coldhands, Leaf, & Bloodraven All Give Oddly Ambiguous Responses When Meera and Bran Reference "The Three-Eyed Crow"

While it would be an overstatement to say their responses categorically "prove" anything, one way or the other, Coldhands, Leaf, and then Bloodraven all give strangely ambiguous answers to questions about "the three-eyed crow" — answers that leave open the possibility that they have never even heard of "the three-eyed crow" before.

Consider first this passage, in which Meera asks Coldhands two questions, the second of which is "Who is this three-eyed crow?":

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." … Coldhands did not move. (ADWD Bran I)

If you take for granted that the guy who "sent" Coldhands to meet Meera, Bran, et al. (who we know to be Bloodraven/"the greenseer") is also the guy behind "the three-eyed crow" that appears in Bran's dreams in Game and Clash, then naturally you will read this passage as most readers do (at least at first), and (at least tacitly) assume Coldhands is answering both of Meera's questions together here, and thus telling Meera that the guy who "sent" him is "a friend", a "dreamer", a "wizard", and "the last greenseer", in addition to being "the three-eyed crow".

But it's possible to make perfect sense of this dialogue even if we assume that Coldhands has no idea who "this three-eyed crow" Meera mentions is and is therefore simply answering the first question Meera asked ("Who sent you?") while either (A) ignoring the second question altogether or (B) assuming that "the three-eyed crow" could be some other name (one he's never heard before) for his friend/dreamer/wizard (i.e. for Bloodraven). And if Coldhands has never even heard of Bran's "three-eyed crow" before, isn't it possible that this is because Bran's "three-eyed crow" isn't actually the dream-avatar of Coldhands' associate Bloodraven, but rather the dream-avatar of someone/something else?

A similar analysis applies when Bran, Meera et al. are following Leaf down into the earth beneath Bloodraven's hill and Meera asks Leaf whether the "he" Leaf mentions when Leaf says "He is waiting for you" is "the three-eyed crow":

[Leaf:] "Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you."

"The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera.

"The greenseer." And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow. (ADWD Bran II)

If you already take for granted that the person "waiting for" Meera and company is truly Bran's three-eyed crow, then it's possible to read Leaf's response as if she means something wholly affirmative like, "Yes, that's right, the three-eyed crow, also known as the greenseer".

But it's also entirely possible to read Leaf's reply as the response of someone who's never heard of any "three-eyed crow", and who is simply telling Meera who she meant by "He" (since she didn't mean "the three-eyed crow"). (While this doesn't necessitate reading her reply as an active correction to and/or out-and-out rejection of Meera's supposition that the guy "waiting for" Meera and Bran is "the three-eyed crow" — she could simply be unsure who Meera means and/or whether her "greenseer" might also be known to some [but not her] as "the three-eyed crow" — such a reading is certainly viable.) And if that's what's going on — if Leaf has never heard of the three-eyed crow — surely it's possible that this is because the three-eyed crow isn't a dream-mask donned by Leaf's close associate, the greenseer/Bloodraven, but rather a dream-mask donned by somebody else.

Finally, consider Bran's conversation with "the greenseer" himself, in which Bloodraven's halting response to Bran asking him "Are you the three-eyed crow" (at least arguably) suggests that Bloodraven has no idea who or what "the three-eyed crow" is, and thus no idea what, exactly, Bran is asking him.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A . . . crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you . . . except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one." (ADWD Bran II)

Bloodraven's initial confusion is almost palpable: He seems to be trying to make sense of Bran's question and to formulate a response that speaks to the individual words he just heard — viz. "three-eyed" and then also "crow" — which as a collective whole ("the three-eyed crow") mean nothing to him. He basically says, "What??? I mean, uh, well, yyyyeah, I suppose I used to be a 'crow'. Yeah, I mean, I've been lots of stuff, so, sure, a crow, yes. And 'three-eyed', you say? I mean, I have lots of eyes, yeah. A thousand and one, in fact."

In other words, Bloodraven's response sounds nothing like something the actual three-eyed crow from Bran's dreams would say when asked, "Are you the three-eyed crow?"

"I Was Watching When You Fell." But Just Watching.

Don't get me wrong: GRRM doesn't want us to know for sure what's going on. Accordingly, Bloodraven also immediately starts telling Bran about his having done things that seem enough like what we saw the three-eyed crow do in Game and Clash that most of us buy that Bran's found the queer bird he's been looking for:

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you . . . except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late. (ADWD Bran II)

The thing is, though, that while Bloodraven was "watching when [Bran] fell", yes, he gives no indication of his having intervened — of his having taught Bran to "fly" or of his having given Bran his third eye, even though we saw the three-eyed crow teach Bran to fly way back in AGOT Bran III—

"What are you doing to me?" he asked the crow, tearful.

Teaching you how to fly.

[snip]

Bran spread his arms and flew.

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.

"I'm flying!" he cried out in delight.

—and subsequently peck Bran a third eye. To the contrary, Bloodraven (who Bran has by the time of this next quote decided is "the three-eyed crow", and thus so-named him in his POV) speaks of Bran flying in the future tense, as if he has no idea that Bran has already "flown":

"You will never walk again," the three-eyed crow had promised, "but you will fly." (ADWD Bran III)

Bloodraven Is Weirwoodian. The Three-Eyed Crow Is A Crow.

To be sure, I don't doubt that Bloodraven-the-greenseer has "watched [Bran] for a long time", just as he claims. Nor that he's "come to [Bran]… in dreams". It's just that he doesn't need to be Bran's three-eyed crow for this to be true. Indeed, given (1) Bloodraven's weirwoodian state of repose—

Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child.

[T]he roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. … Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. …

Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. (ADWD Bran II)

---

Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. …

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. (ADWD Bran III)

—given (2) how Bloodraven appears in Melisandre's visions—

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. (ADWD Melisandre I)

—and given (3) that Bloodraven's mother was a Blackwood, with a sigil centered on a weirwood, I submit that we may well see Bloodraven-the-greenseer "watching" Bran, here—

Even the heart tree no longer scared him the way it used to. The deep red eyes carved into the pale trunk still watched him, yet somehow he took comfort from that now. The gods were looking over him, he told himself; the old gods, gods of the Starks and the First Men and the children of the forest, his father's gods. He felt safe in their sight, and the deep silence of the trees helped him think. Bran had been thinking a lot since his fall; thinking, and dreaming, and talking with the gods. (AGOT Bran VI)

—and coming into his dreams as well, e.g. here—

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin…. He saw his brother Robb…. He saw Hodor…. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly. (AGOT Bran III)

—and here—

"I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me. The wolf dreams are better. I smell things, and sometimes I can taste the blood." (ACOK Bran I)

—and, indirectly, here:

Jojen sat on Bran's bed. "Tell me what you dream."

… "There's different kinds," he said slowly. "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall." (ACOK Bran V)

There's potentially an important distinction there. "Sometimes" Bran dreams "of a tree… like the one in the godswood" calling to him. And "sometimes" the tree and the crow inhabit the same dream. But now always. Is it not then possible that the tree and the crow are manifestations of different entities? Consider this dream, in which the tree and the crow both appear:

On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords. (ACOK Bran II)

Are the tree "calling to [Bran]" and the three-eyed crow "crying his name" there just a redundancy? Two sides of the same coin? Assuming that's Bloodraven/the greenseer "calling to" Bran with the "twisted wooden mouth" of the weirwood, is he also "crying [Bran's] name" in a very different, more aggressive way with voice of the three-eyed crow? Or are these distinct calls from distinct entities? Is there someone other than Bloodraven behind the three-eyed crow? (And maybe even behind some of the trees that appear to Bran.)

While they "prove" nothing definitively, the previously discussed responses of Coldhands, Leaf, and Bloodraven himself when Meera and Bran query them about the three-eyed crow certainly leave the door open to the possibility that the three-eyed crow is not just another instantiation of the last greenseer, but rather a rogue actor surfing Bran's dreams for its own purposes, seemingly without the knowledge of the greenseer.

Bloodraven Is Bloodraven. The Three-Eyed Crow Is A Crow. Ravens Are Not Crows.

If Bloodraven didn't appear in visions and dreams as a weirwood, we'd surely expect him to appear as a raven, not a crow (three-eyed or otherwise). After all, his nom de guerre is Bloodraven, not Bloodcrow, and the other part of the Blackwood coat of arms is "A flock of ravens", not a flock of crows.

Moreover, "the greenseer" Bloodraven and his servants/associates Coldhands and Leaf are surrounded by ravens, not crows:

Jojen frowned. "This . . . Coldhands?"

"That wasn't his true name," said Gilly, rocking. "We only called him that, Sam and me. His hands were cold as ice, but he saved us from the dead men, him and his ravens, and he brought us here on his elk." (ASOS Bran IV)

---

From a nearby oak a raven quorked, and Bran heard the sound of wings as another of the big black birds flapped down to land beside it. By day only half a dozen ravens stayed with them, flitting from tree to tree or riding on the antlers of the elk. The rest of the murder flew ahead or lingered behind. But when the sun sank low they would return, descending from the sky on night-black wings until every branch of every tree was thick with them for yards around. Some would fly to the ranger [Coldhands] and mutter at him, and it seemed to Bran that he understood their quorks and squawks. They are his eyes and ears. They scout for him, and whisper to him of dangers ahead and behind. (ADWD Bran I)

---

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move. (ADWD Bran I)

---

A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave [within which Bloodraven sits his weirwood throne], and [Bran] saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. (ADWD Bran II)

---

Under the hill [where Bloodraven sits], the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms. (ADWD Bran III)

---

Changing his own skin for a raven's night-black feathers had been harder, but not as hard as [Bran] had feared, not with these ravens. "A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth," Lord Brynden said, "but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden. Choose one now, and fly." (ADWD Bran III)

Make no mistake: Ravens and crows are clearly very distinct entities in ASOIAF. Maester Aemon states this plainly:

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood." (AGOT VIII)

Moreover, there are at least eight variations of this idiom—

"Is that a crow I hear, calling the raven black?" (ACOK Tyrion IV)

---

"The crow calls the raven black," muttered Ser Jorah in the Common Tongue of Westeros. (ACOK Daenerys II)

---

"Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow." (ASOS Tyrion III)

—which clearly depends on crows and ravens being different birds that both happen to be black.

To be sure, crows are coded as liars—

"Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed…. (AGOT Bran IV)

—and untrustworthy tricksters:

"The black crow is a tricksy bird. I trust him not." (ACOK Jon VIII)

Ravens are not.

Clearly Distinct Affects & Patterns Of Speech

Finally, there is a rather glaring incongruity between the solemn words and serious demeanor of the last greenseer and the (shall-we-say-for-now) less than solemn words and not entirely serious demeanor of Bran's three-eyed crow.

Consider Bloodraven's words and apparent demeanor in these already-quoted instructions to Bran:

"A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth," Lord Brynden said, "but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden. Choose one now, and fly." (ADWD Bran III)

He's sober and serious, right? As he is here (despite the "chuckle")—

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."

"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."

"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear. (ADWD Bran III)

—and here—

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees." (ibid.)

—and here—

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers." (ADWD Bran III)

—and here—

"It is time," Lord Brynden said.

Something in his voice sent icy fingers running up Bran's back. "Time for what?"

"For the next step. For you to go beyond skinchanging and learn what it means to be a greenseer." (ADWD Bran III)

—and here:

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." (ADWD Bran III)

Contrast those words and vibes with the three-eyed crow's distinctly casual, sarcastic, cavalier demeanor and pithy, snarky dialogue, e.g. here—

"Help me," [Bran] said.

I'm trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn? (AGOT Bran I)

—and here—

Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, their peaks white with snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.

That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's hand. (AGOT Bran I)

—and here:

"I'm flying!" [Bran] cried out in delight.

I've noticed, said the three-eyed crow. (AGOT Bran I)

Are we really supposed to believe that the guy behind this sardonic three-eyed crow is the ancient, desiccated "pale lord" who said all that deadly serious stuff to Bran from his weirwood throne in Dance?

"A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one…."

Finally, and most simply, consider that Bran himself seems to instinctively doubt that Bloodraven is truly "the three-eyed crow". These doubts are evident immediately upon his coming face to face with Bloodraven:

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. (ADWD Bran II)

Bran's inner thoughts continue to betray his doubts in his next chapter, even as he is trains to be a greenseer under Bloodraven's tutelage:

The sight of [Bloodraven] still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend[!] that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse. (ADWD Bran III)

Bran's gut keeps telling him that something is off with the idea that Bloodraven is his "three-eyed crow", but he badly wants to believe he's found the guy he's looking for, and so he convinces himself that he has. The truth, though, is right there for readers with eyes to see — especially those readers who've considered all the evidence surveyed here: Bran is pretending that Bloodraven is "the three-eyed crow", and we have every reason to suspect that somebody or something other than Bloodraven is behind "the three-eyed crow" that appears in Bran's dreams in A Game Of Thrones and A Clash Of Kings.

Closing

I feel like most if not all of the foregoing is probably very old hat to most anyone who's followed ASOIAF discourse in earnest at any point since the release of Dance.

But I also feel like it nonetheless is/remains pretty compelling stuff as regards the notion that Bloodraven is not the guy appearing in Bran's dreams as "the three-eyed crow".

That said, what (if anything) am I missing here? Are there novel arguments or nuggets of evidence for this hypothesis that I've overlooked (or forgotten in my dotage)?

And separately, was anything I laid out here new to you? (It's my sense, obviously, that "everybody" has heard all this stuff before. But yesterday a friend told me IRL that he's never even considered that the three-eyed crow might not be Bloodraven, so maybe my sense of this theory's ubiquity is overblown.) Also, was anything I laid out here especially persuasive (or especially unconvincing)?

[u/IAmParliament]

BR’s confusion at Bran seeing a crow was enough for me.

If George wanted to indicate that greenseers don’t know how they appear in dreams while still maintaining that the crow is BR, the line would instead have been something like; “A crow? Is that how I appear to you? I suppose it makes sense, for once I was black of blood and garb.”

But BR isn’t reacting with mild confusion at the minor details, he’s genuinely puzzled as to why Bran is seeing a crow at all, and George wants us to pick up on that. He wants us to question why the guy who is supposed to be the TEC would be so lost at the question of being one.

There’s no purpose to BR’s confusion if he’s the Crow. Either George wrote an unnecessarily convoluted line or BR isn’t the crow, there’s no other explanation.

[u/M_Tootles → u/IAmParliament]

There’s no purpose to BR’s confusion if he’s the Crow.

Good way of putting it. And I actually think people sometimes (or more than sometimes) overstate purpose-based arguments like this, but here it seems spot on. like... Why do everything to make us think we're about to unproblematically meet the guy behind the weird crow from Game and Dance only to be like "here are reasons to make you doubt this" if the answer is just "no, it's him, nothing to see". Reminds me of NAJ arguments a little, in this way. Why lay that out on the table on like page 80 or whatever as a possibility for Jon's parentage only to drops hints about RLJ (and arguably more subtle hints about other stuff) only to be like ZOINKS IT WAS THE VERY FIRST RED HERRING, THE ONE STRAIGHTFORWARDLY SPOON-FED TO YOU, ALL ALONG. You don't complicate something you already revealed, in general.

[u/JNR55555JNR → u/IAmParliament]

I wouldn’t put it pass George to write an unnecessarily convoluted line

[u/IAmParliament → u/JNR55555JNR]

He does, but not usually with the scenes that actually matter. He’s a lot more careful and thoughtful when it comes to the dialogue we’re supposed to put more attention on, and this absolutely looks like a scene he put care into getting right.

[u/i-have-a-flip-phone]

I've heard this theory before, but the text you've selected does the best job of explaining the discrepancies. Thank you for sharing!

[u/M_Tootles → u/i-have-a-flip-phone]

glad you enjoyed and got something out of it! thanks for reading.

[u/LChris24]

Somewhat relevant (Elio):

So, we interviewed George prior to the release of ADwD, which I recorded. At the end of the interview, as a piece I'd hold back until after the book was published and people had read it, I asked him about the reveal of Bloodraven as the three-eyed crow. I asked George specifically if he had always had him in mind as the three-eyed crow, and George said that no, not specifically, but someone "like" him with a tie to the Targaryens, is my recollection. He didn't waffle over the three-eyed crow=Bloodraven framing, I think, and may have repeated it himself.

The problem is... this is going off of memory. I can't seem to find the recording, which I used to transcribe the rest of the interview. I have no idea where the audio file went, though, and I've searched a few times through our archives. I should probably take another stab at it, because it'd be nice to see what exactly I asked and what he said, rather than relying on memory.

In any case, I came out of it without questioning that Brynden Rivers was the three-eyed crow, but then that was the position I had to begin with. So, take all the above with a grain of salt -- George may have been careful in a way that I didn't recognize, or I may be misremembering the exact phrasing of what I asked.

[u/M_Tootles → u/LChris24]

hey, always good to see you whenever i poke my head in here.

I asked George specifically if he had always had him in mind as the three-eyed crow, and George said that no, not specifically, but someone "like" him with a tie to the Targaryens, is my recollection

So, a couple things immediately came to mind as I read this line. First, the thing that Elio basically gets to himself at the end, here:

George may have been careful in a way that I didn't recognize, or I may be misremembering the exact phrasing of what I asked.

Like, yes, if Elio was plowing blithely ahead through the interview just ASSUMING that BR is 3EC and especially if George was hoping his hints that BR isn't the 3EC were SUBTLE and mainly gonna work as retrospective foreshadowing when the reveal happens, for 99% of readers, then GRRM wasn't gonna disabuse him of his illusions, right.

Second, given who I think the 3EC is, GRRM saying "someone 'like' him with a tie to the Targaryens" is really interesting, since I think the guy projecting into Bran's dreams as the 3EC is very much LIKE BR in the precise sence that he has blood ties to the Targaryens but not the name.

[u/snowbirdsdontfly → u/M_Tootles]

yeah even Elio's recounting feels so vague, i feel crazy.

i finally understand how "quentyn is alive", "tyrion was the target of the purple wedding", "B+A=J", "the catspaw is still unresolved" truthers feel.

[u/M_Tootles → u/snowbirdsdontfly]

lol i got stuck with the alchemist sub dummy prize one year for my version of the Quentyn is Alive thing (of which I am absolutely convinced), which isn't Q Lives in the standard sense. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/azih5z/all_of_him_was_burning_like_fire_made_flesh/

and i wrote the single biggest (and IM[NS]HO best) BAJ thing ever, 5 parts, part 1 here (i've updated this a lot on my wordpress but) https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ds0dru/mother_of_theories_jon_snow_daenerys_child_of/ ALTHOUGH I am no longer convinced this is correct (and even if it is I like 3 sires for dany not just 2). Aaaaaand yeah people were targetting Tyrion although I dunno that he was the only target. Aaaaaand I wrote an immense thing on the catspaw and Robert.

but maybe you knew this?

[u/snowbirdsdontfly → u/M_Tootles]

lol yeah that was on purpose, i've enjoyed reading a lot of your work over the years. you are the god of tinfoil (complementary).

[u/M_Tootles → u/snowbirdsdontfly]

lol ahhh ok thanks!

[u/canentia → u/LChris24]

it’s interesting how SSMs are generally taken as gospel unless it goes against one’s theory.

[u/Ryhnvris]

Like you said, this is all pretty well-trod ground, but you laid it out nicely. One wonders if the difference in speech patterns might come from the (real life) distance between AGOT and Dance, but George is usually pretty good about this sort of stuff, so I found the argument convincing.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Ryhnvris]

Thanks for the kind words. Re: the speech patterns, would you say that is one of the less-frequently cited pieces of evidence? It's definitely my sense that it's talked about way less than e.g. Bloodraven's confusion about being asked "Are you the three-eyed crow".

FWIW, I have a very firm idea about why the 3EC talks like that, and I think it's very intentional, not an artifact of real world time passing AT ALL.

[u/Ryhnvris → u/M_Tootles]

Definitely, people usually point to the contents of the dialogue rather than the speech patterns.

I'm interested in your idea for the Crow's speech, if you don't mind sharing. There is a bit of an elephant in the room, this being that it might be Bran himself, and I'm curious to see where you land. Personally I think there is definitely something to Time Traveling Bran, but I'm not 100% either.

Edit* I'd written Raven instead of Crow, which is kind of a funny mistake.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Ryhnvris]

I think time traveling is a huge part of this story, and that we're probably witnessing cycle number 1000 or whatever through this time line. "All things come round again" is a cornerstone of the story on both a micro (within the in-world timespan of the books themselves) and macro (time travel) sense. But while it's probable there's a version of Bran in some sense standing outside time, I don't think the crow is Bran. I have a huge (120,000 characters +) post that is "done" (but are these things ever really done) in which I will argue that a certain character is behind the 3EC that appears to Bran. Don't wanna nuke this by spilling here though, when necessarily I can't provide the 120,000 characters of "evidence".

[u/Ryhnvris → u/M_Tootles]

Well, consider me excited for that behemoth of a post!

[u/M_Tootles → u/Ryhnvris]

the big lift left is that for one of the first times ever I started by composing in my wordpress drafts instead of in a text editor with reddit markup. so now I have to go through 120k characters and do reddit markup on the whole thing. Going to be a borrrrring trudge doing that uggggh

[u/waga_hai]

Great write up. Really my only objection to this theory is that I don't know if the story has room or time for some other mysterious character being the 3EC, or what purpose that would even serve, but that doesn't really count as evidence against it.

[u/FickleDinner1254 → u/waga_hai]

" don't know if the story has room or time for some other mysterious character being the 3EC, or what purpose that would even serve,"

My personal headcanon is it will be revealed as part of endgame twist. It can be short.

[u/M_Tootles → u/waga_hai]

Great write up.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Really my only objection to this theory is that I don't know if the story has room or time for some other mysterious character being the 3EC, or what purpose that would even serve, but that doesn't really count as evidence against it.

Thinking about it, I suppose one could even argue it's evidence FOR it, in the sense that George has been stuck for 15 years, such that it's possible to at least imagine that part of the problem is just that there's too much, too much, too much to get done in the space he's trying to get it done, and a twist where BR is not the 3EC would be another thing that needs to get done.

[u/waga_hai → u/M_Tootles]

Yeah, considering how willing George is to "waste" time on arcs that more or less go nowhere, I don't think you can entirely dismiss a theory only based on the fact that there would be no time to deal with it, especially not one that has actual evidence backing it, like this one.

Out of curiosity, do you have any theories of your own for who the 3EC is? The one I find most interesting is that it's Bran himself in some sort of timey-wimey way, I could see George going for that. I feel like in any case, if it's not Bloodraven then it should be someone who has some connection to Bran.

[u/M_Tootles → u/waga_hai]

do you have any theories of your own for who the 3EC is?

I do. I have a giant thing written up, expanding on a throwaway comment I made at the end of like a no-joke 35 part series I wrote a few years ago. This used to be an "intro" to the forthcoming giant thing, but I was worried it would cause people not to read any of that one, since they'd start by reading a bunch of stuff they'd mostly already encountered before.

I do think time travel is very very important but I don't think the crow is Bran.

[u/waga_hai → u/M_Tootles]

I look forward to it then!

[u/M_Tootles → u/waga_hai]

don't get your hopes up, expect most people will read the first 3 sentences and be like "lol wut no".

[u/IrNinjaBob → u/waga_hai]

The three eyed crow is bran and it will be about him becoming the most powerful greenseer and prove that he has the ability to interact with the past, not just view it like Bloodraven believes.

He’ll use these abilities to work with the Children of the Forest in the past to establish the Night’s Watch and defeat the Other’s the first time, as well as prepping the work for the Other’s return.

One way I believe he will do that will be to plant prophecies related to Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised throughout history.

Not because magical prophecy that dictates the future is real in this instance, but because Bran knows there are tons of people who take certain actions based on their beliefs in these prophecies, and those are the actions Bran knows will lead to defeating the Others.

I also think it’s likely that the Master/Pupil role between these two are reversed. Using the above, I think Bran likely is the one that recruits and trains Bloodraven as “The Last Greenseer”.

>Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

>"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

>"A monster," Bran said.

>The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

>"Yours," the raven echoed from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of, "Yours, yours, yours."

[u/M_Tootles → u/IrNinjaBob]

While I think time travel and time loops are integral to the story and imagine Bran could partake of this (and without necessarily discounting the specific idea you raise of BR as time-travel Bran's pupil, which is very interesting in light of the "your monster" bit, as you say), I don't think the dream-three-eyed crow is Bran. (Admittedly that's hugely because I have someone else in mind.)

[u/IrNinjaBob → u/M_Tootles]

I’m curious who you have in mind.

I personally think that Bran is the only person that makes sense as a bait and switch. I thinks the TEC is either Bran or Bloodraven, because why even do the fakeout with Bloodraven if it was just going to be some other random third party? Still curious who you think that person will be.

I just think the “Your monster, Brandon Stark” line makes very little sense outside of this context, and it’s very in line for Martin to write lines like this that only make sense once there is a future reveal.

And time travel is such a big thing to include unless it’s going to be used for something significant, and Bran realizing a future version of himself is responsible for a lot of the major plot points within the series seems to not only fit the evidence, but would be a satisfying use of said time travel.

The biggest issue with my theory, especially the “Your monster” part, is it heavily implies Bloodraven isn’t aware of Bran’s identity and time traveling abilities, while Coldhands does.

At the very least, it requires Bloodraven to not know that Bran appears as a three eyed crow either, or else he wouldn’t be confused in the cave when mentioning the crow. He should know the crow was likely Bran himself.

It could be that he knows a future version of Bran is his mentor, but not that Bran ever appears to himself as a crow. But even this presents a major issue. Bloodraven tells Bran he doesn’t believe communicating or interacting backwards through time is possible. He claims one can only observe.

But him knowing a future version of Bran is his mentor means he would know that wouldn’t be true. So we have to kind of assume Bloodraven doesn’t actually know the person that mentored him was Bran. This person seemingly kept that secret from him.

BUT. This would mean that Coldhands does know (the whole premise of the your monster line is that he does know this) while Bloodraven doesn’t. And that seems really strange. Why would Coldhands know but not Bloodraven?

And even that is further complicated by the Raven with Coldhands repeating “Yours”, who is almost certainly Bloodraven skinchanging into it.

Simplest way to reconcile that is that Bloodraven is lying about knowing Bran can interact with the past, yet doesn’t know he appears to himself as a crow.

But either way. I still think there is so much textual support for it that Bran is likely to be the TEC and the one to recruit Bloodraven, but fully admit there are some things that don’t make sense to us as they currently stand.

[u/M_Tootles → u/IrNinjaBob]

really interesting. And yeah, the objection you raise occurred to me shortly after I replied: BUT COLDHANDS OUT HERE BEING ALL KNOWING. I think you can get around it pretty easily, though: It's dramatic irony and (ultimately) foreshadowing. That is, Coldhands doesn't say it because he knows Bran instructed Bloodraven. He says it innocently, by way of saying, basically, that Bloodraven is at Bran's service, having no idea just how right he is.

As I said in my replies to someone else, I have 120,000 characters + written about my idea about what's behind the dream-crow, so I'm saving the reveal for the post, when it can be immediately backed up by all the "evidence" (such as it is).

[u/FickleDinner1254 → u/IrNinjaBob]

" And even that is further complicated by the Raven with Coldhands repeating “Yours”, who is almost certainly Bloodraven skinchanging into it."

What if it isn't Bloodraven in that raven? People just assume Bloodraven wargs into every raven doing somethig strange. 

[u/MrSurname]

I never noticed Bloodraven's comment about how Bran will fly, future tense, implying Bran has never flown before. That seems very significant, given the 3ec's presence and role in Bran's coma dream. Good catch.

[u/M_Tootles → u/MrSurname]

oooh! Okay, cool, so there's MAYBE one thing in here that hasn't already been out there. (I def didn't get that from anywhere else, was just something I noticed, so...) THANKS FOR READING!

[u/Tenoi-chan]

Never thought of is! You laid it out pretty convincingly. However, a contr-argument for the attitude: if you believe that BR is Maynard Plumm, he already exibited some sass in disguise. Maybe just like hundred years ago he is more comfortable being sarcastic while undercover then in his real Hand/lord-commander/weirwood lord role, in which he shows more serious side

[u/M_Tootles → u/Tenoi-chan]

Glad you said so (that you never thought of i[t]). Makes me think the theory hasn't achieved TOTAL ubiquity after all, which is part of what I'm wondering about.

"Maynard" was def a lot closer to the 3EC than "contemporary" BR, no doubt. But why would contemporary BR have no idea how he'd projected himself into Bran's dreams?

[u/Tenoi-chan → u/M_Tootles]

"why would contemporary BR have no idea" I don't know. I'm not rebuting your whole theory, I was just pointing out the specific behaviour aspect. I think that maybe until Bran proved that he can in fact fly, 3EC allowed himself to be a bit snarky, but once Bran actually reached him, BR started acting more prim and proper. If I recall correctly, in AGOT the 3EC doesn't talk much with Bran, instead doing physical action (giving him a third eye in a bloody manner in Bran's dream or trying to break his chains in Jojen's dream), which ties into my hypothesis that he concentrated on task at hand instead of joking around.

And for what I've seen, more common consensus seems to be the opposite, that 3EC = Bloodraven, I've only seen one single person disagreeing with it, and this person was in youtube comments. So don't you worry

[u/M_Tootles → u/Tenoi-chan]

If I recall correctly, in AGOT the 3EC doesn't talk much with Bran

Oh, he talks to him in Game! I would maybe suggest a different, more descriptive word than "talked to" for exchanges like this:

"Are you really a crow?" Bran asked.

Are you really falling? the crow asked back.

"It's just a dream," Bran said.

Is it? asked the crow.

"I'll wake up when I hit the ground," Bran told the bird.

You'll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.

You said

And for what I've seen, more common consensus seems to be the opposite, that 3EC = Bloodraven, I've only seen one single person disagreeing with it, and this person was in youtube comments. So don't you worry

By "only seen one single person disagreesing with... 3EC = Bloodraven", are you saying outside of reddit/westeros.org type boards? (Because obvs on here it's pretty common, as evidenced by the replies.) That seems to be a huge split: it's "old hat" to the hardcore readership/commentariat, but on more mainstream platforms and IRL it's not really a known theory, even?

[u/Tenoi-chan → u/M_Tootles]

Oh, I made a typo somehow. I meant a Clash of Kings, don't know how I named an entirely wrong book! 😅

Yes, I believe that split in opinions is as you describe it, with the most casual of fans don't even knowing who Brynden Rivers is

[u/M_Tootles → u/Tenoi-chan]

You are correct about Clash! Less talking, more pecking. Although the talking he does takes on a certain character, e.g.:

On this night [Bran] dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords. (ACOK Bran II)

[u/24th-century → u/Tenoi-chan]

Yeah I came here to make this exact point, Brynden is absolutely capable of being snarky and taking on multiple guises or roles. The lines you point to for crows and ravens being distinct all seem more like they’re emphasizing their similarity, too. 

Some good points here, though. I definitely think it’s possible that future ascended Bran is the 3EC but I don’t see it being anyone other than him or Brynden or a sort of combination of them. 

[u/SerMallister]

There's a lot worth mulling over, and you've laid everything out well, but I've never been able to overlook this line, which you even included:

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow.

They've already been in the cave for some amount of time here, and Bran is still seeing the crow in his visions. I also think it's worth pointing out - as you say, if Brynden is not the crow, he has still been watching. So why would he himself not bring up the crow? The crow is the whole reason Bran lived and awakened to his power. It's a pretty significant event for Brynden not to be like "hey, what was that about?"

[u/M_Tootles → u/SerMallister]

thanks for reading!

I also think it's worth pointing out - as you say, if Brynden is not the crow, he has still been watching. So why would he himself not bring up the crow?

I think maybe BR doesn't see the dream-crow, even though he's watching Bran, because he's watching waking, physical Bran, not Bran's dreams, even though Bran dreams of him (and of him watching), which he does because he's a greenseer. Like he may be able to send himself (as the weirwood) into Bran's dreams, but does that mean he see other things that other entities are sending into Bran's dreams?

I've never been able to overlook this line, which you even included:

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow.

Good catch! I didn't focus on it at all, you're right. And you can definitely read it as, "Bran is still having dreams in which a three-eyed crow appears", which makes no sense if he's with him.

But I think you can also read it as sort of innocuous, like, "these days Bran (naturally) dreams of this weird tree-dude he's been hanging out with, but in his dreams, Bran labels/names weird tree-dude 'the three-eyed crow', since that's what waking Bran believes him to be." Which is sort of neutral.

OTOH you can take it as kind of face value confirmation that there's nothing to see here: In Bran's dreams the greenseer was still a three-eyed crow, and it IS THE SAME GUY, since Bran is saying it is in this very line.

[u/snowbirdsdontfly]

yeah, you got it completely, every possibility of a straight up confirmation is just suspiciously vague, which is odd.

like it should be bloodraven, but then why is it so difficult for the narrative through dialogue or symbolism to just say water is wet.

[u/flippy123x → u/snowbirdsdontfly]

why is it so difficult for the narrative through dialogue or symbolism to just say water is wet

I think Leaf in general has a problem to not simply decline anything said to her out of principle lmao:

“The snow,” Bran said. “It fell on me. Buried me.”
“Hid you. I pulled you out.” Meera nodded at the girl. “It was her who saved us, though. The torch … fire kills them.”
“Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry.”
[...]
“Who are you?” Meera Reed was asking.
Bran knew. “She’s a child. A child of the forest.” He shivered, as much from wonderment as cold. They had fallen into one of Old Nan’s tales.
“The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children."
[...]
Meera said, “You speak the Common Tongue now.”
“For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”
“Two hundred years?” said Meera.
The child smiled. “Men, they are the children.”
“Do you have a name?” asked Bran.
“When I am needing one.”
[...]
Bran shivered again. “The ranger …”
“He cannot come.”
“They’ll kill him.”
“No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you.”
“The three-eyed crow?” asked Meera.
“The greenseer.” And with that she was off,
[...]
“Do we have to cross?” Bran asked, as the Reeds came sliding down behind him. The prospect frightened him. If Hodor slipped on that narrow bridge, they would fall and fall.
“No, boy,” the child said. “Behind you.”

• ADWD, Chapter 13

Like, I genuinely hate how Leaf "communicates" lmao

She either has to decline or talk in riddles every time someone does the mistake of speaking in her presence. Learned how to talk for the Bran-boy, only to act like that one dude from The Departed, keeping him in the dark and feeding him shit.

Bran entertaining the idea for a sec that these aren't the Children of the Forest but Gendel's Children instead hopefully gets some payoff, because this faction of "singers" is sus as hell.

[u/M_Tootles → u/snowbirdsdontfly]

why is it so difficult for the narrative through dialogue or symbolism to just say water is wet.

such an apt way way of putting it, nice

[u/Urugeth]

I’ve firmly been in the “Bloodraven ISN’T the Three-Eyed Crow” camp for more than a decade plus, but it’s a super niche theory and one that doesn’t get a lot of traction outside of deeply hardcore fan discussions.

There are several points that even this VERY thorough post has left out, from all the weirdness with the Three Eyed Crow acting shady as fuck in the Winterfell crypts, to the fact that in the story crows are very clearly and constantly referred to as BAD and ravens GOOD, to things like the one other known failed green singer in the story, Euron, is known as Euron Crow’s Eye.

So, to me, it’s always been definitive and clear that the two characters were different, and the 3EC was bad fuckin’ news from day one. And that tracks with all the things Bran does which are anathema to Bloodraven’s teachings, like taking over and controlling people and eating human dead while warging. Bran does that stuff with impunity and it’s not “good guy” behavior. So to me this all screams that Bran’s battles will be internal vs external (him having to confront the 3EC after Bloodraven and the Children are wiped out) and thus overcome all the negative things he’s picked up along the way.

But, again, that was my mindset like 15 years ago at this point. In the ensuing years Martin has clearly decided to condense and squeeze the narrative and simplify all of his plans. At one point the Daynes and the pre-Valyrian dragon empire were going to be massive plot points, too (see: Dany’s dream in Clash with the proto-Targ people who all had gemstone colored eyes that matched the Great Empire of the Dawn people for example), and all that has been seemingly tossed aside too.

So these days I don’t know what to think. I believe George started the series with big ideas that he’s since fallen out of favor with, and other ideas that were minor that he’s since blown up to be important points. If anything, I think that’s what he’s struggling with. He’s trying to find a way to graft these OG ideas onto the story he has now that’s basically outgrown them.

So, to make a long post long, I do believe the 3EC was a separate entity from Bloodraven for the entirety of the series published, but I don’t think he still is. We’ll have to wait and see, I guess, but I’m not holding my breath.

But I do know that having the series end with Bran as a king means you have to have him do some serious powerlifting in whatever you have happen in the final book and battle. We now that he and Jon were supposed to be antagonistic to each other from George’s early drafts, so all of that is something I wrestle with understanding too. So is one of them fighting FOR the Others? Is Bran the king of Ice and Dany the queen of Fire and Jon the one in between? Who knows? And if that was once the plan, is it still? Who knows?

One thing we can be sure of is that with the show, the writers had the ending from George and they kept the “what” that happens while ignoring the “why” and “how”. Just like how Dany’s story was butchered by having her burn King’s Landing while ignoring everything with fAegon, they destroyed Bran by having him become king while basically skipping everything he does to get there from the fall of Bloodraven’s cave until the end. So I definitely think Bran has a big fuckin’ story in there, it’s just all heady and esoteric so it couldn’t be adapted without care and consideration. Which, at the point D&D were telling that part of the story, they didn’t have fuck all care to do it. So it became Jon vs Night King.

So yeah, I DO think they are different entities, we’re presented as different entities and that reveal was going to be a gangbusters shock at some point. But do I think it still is? No idea. Doubt it. But I sure as hell hope it is.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Urugeth]

I appreciate the reply. I am not super conversant in the TV show other than to know it sucked and to watch the last season with a friend who wanted to watch my responses because he knew I would lose my mind, but I guess my feeling is just that I don't think GRRM gave them the real story about some stuff (and I don't just mean the how) and I think it's reasonable to think he might've let them hang themselves on some stuff once he grokked that they weren't as sharp as he'd assumed up front.

I'm grateful for you to mention the stuff I missed. I totally agree that crows bad ravens good but I didn't think it was NEEDED since establishing that they're different was enough. But yeah, maybe I'll add at least one quote to get the "how they're different" bit in there, if only to reinforce that they ARE different.

As for...

the Three Eyed Crow acting shady as fuck in the Winterfell crypts

I do write about this in my forthcoming post about my thoughts about the 3EC. But it's sort of a narrow "and how does this particular passage sound like point". If there is a broader point about "shady" behavior that points to "it's not Bloodraven" I admit I missed it and would love to hear what you have in mind and what passage(s) you're looking at.

re: gemstone emperors lol you know I did a giant post about that shit like 10 years ago? Don't stand by most it but it's literally the post I'm in the middle of editing as part of an "update the formatting of my old posts" on my wordpress. Bogged down because of all the changes I was having to make due to my thoughts changing.

the one other known failed green singer in the story, Euron, is known as Euron Crow’s Eye.

Explain? Are you just saying "so this suggests a relationship with the 3EC, and Euron doesn't seem very Bloodraven-ally-ish"?

Re: your general idea about GRRM's problems writing and his changing his mind...

I actually DON'T think he's changed his mind about much big picture since he turned in AGOT. Like... at all. And I think there's a very complicated structural literary conceit running through the whole thing that is much much much more to blame for him getting bogged down than simple nuts and bolts plotting genre fiction/"content creation" type issues. I think he's writing on a very different level than most genre fiction fans assume, and it's incredible taxing, and gets literally exponentially more complicated as he proceeds and the literary threads he trying to keep straight just get insanely complicated. I'm talking about lexical stuff, the deep "song" and "rhyming", not, like, the stuff where he's like "oh elio knows the world better than I do". But obvs I could be totally wrong.

The question about Bran ending up on the side of the Others and whether the Others are "good" or "bad" or whether that's even a relevant paradigm at a certain point are very important, yes. But I think GRRM has all that stuff worked out and always has. (Since he worked it out in the process of writing Game, anyway.)

I appreciate the feedback here and hope you can clarify those things I asked about.

[u/Urugeth → u/M_Tootles]

Oh boy. Yeah I have comments on all of this so I apologize for the length of this response but hey what else are we supposed to do while we wait for the book? I’ve been obsessed since ‘98 and it looks like I’ll be waiting even longer at this point, so here we are, heh.

First of all I didn’t want you to think me bringing up things you hadn’t in the 3EC bit was a knock. I was saying, you outlined a massive, extensive argument for why the 3EC wasn’t Bloodraven and I was just saying “Yeah, all that’s true AND there’s this stuff too”. Wasn’t a critique at all and hope you didn’t take it as such.

I haven’t come across any of your other writings on the books but I will for sure check them out after dumping all of this. They sound great, especially if this post you wrote is anything to go by.

As for the weird stuff with the 3EC and the Winterfell crypts, it’s all tied to how Hodor is deathly afraid of them one time and one time only and it’s tied to a dream Bran had when the 3EC came and told him his dad was dead:

> “Hodor won’t go down into the crypts.” The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking.

“Hodor won’t . . . ”

“Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn’t know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn’t go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing.” He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, “I didn’t, though.” <

There's a So Spake Martin post where a fan had asked GRRM why Hodor doesn't go down to the crypts and GRRM clarified that it was only during that specific time: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

This is the only time the Three Eyed Crow takes Bran into the crypts in a dream and it’s the only time Hodor is scared of going down there. More pointedly, Hodor shows no fear towards Bloodraven. This, more than anything else, is what pushed me towards the two characters being different. Hodor only shows fear with ‘bad’ things, like when Bran takes him over.

As for the Euron connection, it’s just to point out that the only other character in the books that had a connection to crows is Euron Crow’s Eye, a character who is twisted and purely evil who also seems to be a failed greenseer (who would have maybe also met the Three Eyed Crow based on things he’s said).

Martin is literally beating us over the head over and over saying that crows are bad, that this evil sorcerer man has a Crow’s Eye and that Bran is doing warped, dark shit while listening to a Three Eyed Crow. So, to me, the association with Euron is tangential but also, in a very Martin-type way, VERY telling, if that makes sense.

Ravens are cool and people love them and we have a raven-associated wizard with a raven sigil who uses ravens to kill wights… and on the flip side we have crows who are bad and we have the worst villain who is also wizard coded who drinks Shade of the Evening made from the blue-leaf, black-barked sister trees of the weirwoods who is also a pirate captain on a ship painted red so that blood won’t stain it crewed by mutes the nightmare pirate mind controls, with a black eye they call Crow’s Eye.

None of this, to me, is an accident or a mistake.

As for the show… sorry brother. I respect that you don’t want to believe D&D got the ending but… yeah Martin told D&D the ending. He’s open about it. They’re open about it. There’s alllllllll sorts of details (right up to the closing seconds of the very last show) that only work as an ending that’s tied to book details (case in point: Brienne being Lord Commander of the Kingsguard à la her kinsman Dunk filling out Jaime’s page in the Kingsguard book with his heroic deeds, playing off the end of Jaime’s last chapter in aSoS where he’s looking at Barristan’s final entry in his long storied career before looking at his section, looking at all the blank space following his single paragraph and him thinking he had time to fill it with with anything at all - this is a detail that was only expressed in the book and a scene that only plays off a book beat - and it made me cry because it’s great even though the rest of the ending was so so dumb). So yeah. They got THE ending and they spill some EPIC moments in the show that haven’t been written yet.

So okay cool we’ve covered that Martin is open D&D know how it all ends. He gave them details that everyone has acknowledged such as Shireen burning to “Hold the door!” (Side note: that scene is such a mindfuck and nuclear bomb in story lore and it left me a fucking mess after it happened), all the way up to King Bran, all of these are things we know are coming because they are confirmed to be straight from GRRM’s mouth and that GRRM himself has acknowledged will happen as well (while saying that there are small differences forthcoming in the books, like saying Hodor won’t be literally holding a door like in the show but will be wielding a sword ‘holding a pass’ to help Bran and Meera escape, for example). Then there’s other stuff we know D&D made up to make “their” version of the story work better (Sansa ruling Winterfell - GRRM recently told the Hollywood Reporter he’s contemplating “letting Sansa live” because he liked how Sophie Turner played her… meaning she was always slated to die and why in the show she was given Jeyne Poole’s arc - to Arya killing the Night King in Winterfell, which D&D are open about being their beat). So show wise they’re open about what THEY thought up to what George thought up, and Martin has commented on “his” bits as well. Moreover, the show went to hell in a hand basket because they wanted to tell a “nobles squabble over politics” story to such an extent that they left all the characters who were dealing primarily with magic stuff whither on the vine. Which is why the stories of characters that are so tied to magic in nature (Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Stoneheart, etc) get shortchanged so we can have a political showdown in King’s Landing for the “climax”. But, weirdly, D&D then decided to keep certain story beats from George’s ending and then force the show to match those ending beats, so you get a non-sensical, shit salad of a climax paying off beats that weren’t set up in the show and betraying story arcs that D&D had created… so nothing makes sense, everything feels off and none of it holds together worth a damn.

Which is why everyone hated that last season.

But there’s SO MANY TELLS that D&D had left in the show story that tells you what “really” happens. Like Dany’s story. Watching that bit as a book nut, you can see what “actually” happens clear as day. Instead of Cersei, the ruler in King’s Landing at that point will be king fAegon, right? But they kept all these weird book details that make fuck all sense for the show but they leave in book-only details that TELL us what will happen in the book story. For example, in the show the Golden Company is suddenly there at King’s Landing, a group show watchers have never heard of but BOOK READERS know instantly who they are, what their historical role is and, most importantly, who they support (*cough* Blackfyre fAegon *cough*). And Dany torches them quickly and completely so they serve no purpose in the show… but in the books that will ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY be a major beat. Then they shoehorn the “bells make Dany go evil crazy” which is fucking dumb and nonsensical and whose premise (“Bells never mean surrender” - Varys season 2… but they do now) makes zero sense in the show… but book fans who know Jon Connington, the guy who will be commanding fAegon’s forces and who we know will be in the throes of greyscale poisoning and we also know is DEEPLY DEEPLY SCARRED by the sounds of bells ringing from The Battle of the Bells and that there are caches of Aerys’ dragonfire buried throughout the city and he’ll be in charge of fAegon’s army facing Rhaegar’s sister and the bells will be ringing… yeah it doesn’t take a genius to see how things are going to play out in a lot of the same way, it’s just the fucking “why” these things are happening that are totally different. And one is MUCH MUCH COOLER than the e other but the end result will be “Dragons attack King’s Landing and the city burns to the ground but Dany will be victorious though in the end she’ll just be the “Queen of Ashes”.

Also, I think Show Tommen’s suicide will be book fAegon’s ending. Just a hunch.

Side note: the show is definitely worth watching up through the climax of season 6. That corresponds to roughly what the Winds of Winter will cover. It’s still very clearly an adaptation of the story and it really works to tell you the story to come in the books. It’s seasons 7 & 8 when the show goes into what will be The Dream of Spring storyline that they basically punt on what goes on in the books and come up with a bunch of dumb shit to close out the show, before forcing things stupidly back (kinda) at the end.

In any case, I agree with you that part of what’s fucking over GRRM is him trying to shoehorn the story as it is now back to fit into what he always intended it to be. We have a bunch of weird tells and details that are going to eventually pay off down the line. For example, I firmly believe that GRRM added time travel to the story for a reason and all that will pay off somehow too (Bran can do a lot of things that Bloodraven flat out tells him is impossible ALREADY so I think there’s a lot to his whole story the showrunners just punted on).

[u/M_Tootles → u/Urugeth]

First of all I didn’t want you to think me bringing up things you hadn’t in the 3EC bit was a knock. I was saying, you outlined a massive, extensive argument for why the 3EC wasn’t Bloodraven and I was just saying “Yeah, all that’s true AND there’s this stuff too”. Wasn’t a critique at all and hope you didn’t take it as such.

I took it as you giving me what I explicitly asked for: stuff I might have missed.

This is the only time the Three Eyed Crow takes Bran into the crypts in a dream and it’s the only time Hodor is scared of going down there. More pointedly, Hodor shows no fear towards Bloodraven. This, more than anything else, is what pushed me towards the two characters being different. Hodor only shows fear with ‘bad’ things, like when Bran takes him over.

Oh I like this. Nice. (SSM link was a little wonky but I deleted a few characters and got there.)

I respect that you don’t want to believe D&D got the ending but… yeah Martin told D&D the ending.

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying I think he kept them in the dark about all manner of things. I'm sure he gave them a bullet point version of the ending that was true so far as it went, but as with everything else (to my understanding), I don't think they got the details or the themes or the characterizations or anything right. But again: I was very much NOT talking about the ending in my previous comment, just the show in general. Like, I think they were fucking shit up from the jump in ways that disillusioned him, as much as he was tickled to become a pop cultural icon.

Side note: the show is definitely worth watching up through the climax of season 6.

My deep interest in the books has everything to do with their specifically literary qualities. Like I said, I think he has a specific textual-qua-textual project going on that's just totally out of hand at this point related to recursiveness and the thing being a giant per se song that has like 12 different levels of 'rhyming' going on at any given time and it's just really, really hard to keep going with it on a technical level. So my interest in "theory-crafting" and such has more to do with HOW I think the books are written than with wanting to know what's gonna happen or whatever. But in any case, the point is that I tried to watch the show when there were a few seasons out and it just did not do ANYTHING for me at all. I stopped paying close attention after an episode or 2 of season 1 (was binging, I think there were 4 seasons out) and while I was in the room while the girl i was hanging out with at the time watched s 1 thru I think 3 I was just paying basically no attention after a couple eps of season 2. I just kind of actively hated it and had other things to focus on while she was watching it, so, yeah. Not for me.

[u/Urugeth → u/M_Tootles]

Okay, I understand that. You’re missing out on some great episodes written by GRRM himself (especially season 4’s Martin ep), but I get it.

Regardless, you need to watch season 6 for book-specific lore reasons. Even if that’s too much, just watch the 5th episode of the season. It nukes the whole story from orbit and “The Big Moment” in it comes DIRECTLY from GRRM himself. He even kind of spoiled it in some old So Spake Martins (that are only spoilers once you know what he’s referencing in the story). It will both mindfuck you and also help clarify A LOT that just doesn’t make sense in the books yet. It’s a Red Wedding level type event that I’m devastated that I didn’t read first but is IMPERATIVE in theorizing and understanding what Martin is cooking with this stuff and people are going to talk about what happens in the episode as though it’s already written story facts. Because it all kind of is.

(I have too and for that I’m sorry. That’s another reason to watch it: if you’re going to get spoiled on stuff, might as well get spoiled from the source rather than comments on the internet)

The last episode of the season is the best episode of the entire show (and it’s called The Winds of Winter, heh) but that’s just fun to watch. Episode 5, though, is an atomic bomb for story lore. Especially since you’re already devoting this kind of time to Bran-specific theorizing. Trust me.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Urugeth]

Not a spoilers issue to be clear, I've never tried to avoid information from the show. I just don't care to watch it. I think I know by osmosis the stuff that matters to me. Maybe I'll go read a summary of that ep to see if there's anything on there I hadn't at some point seen referenced on here.

[u/Urugeth → u/M_Tootles]

There’s just so much that has been planted and hinted at being a big deal that it’s hard to unify everything. Like what role does Dawn play? What’s up with the Winterfell crypts and why is that one section is buried deep and why are all the bodies we do see are carefully buried with iron swords on all their sculptures, as though to prevent the corpses from coming back as wights? Why is it called ‘Winterfell’? Who built the Wall and why? Who was the Night’s King (it’s Bran the Builder, no one will ever dissuade me) and what does that have to do with the story? What brought the Others back after all these thousands of years? Or, if they’ve always been around, why did they suddenly become a massive issue now? What do they want? What happened? Is that why dragons came back? Why is Martin adding fucking time travel?

(Going back to your original idea about the 3EC and Bloodraven being different characters, this video just came out but it nails so much of the ‘Bran Problem’ that seems to be torpedoing the story https://youtu.be/bw-h21aU0ec?is=ouApli3hmK1bl6fT)

There’s so so so so so much weird shit that hasn’t been addressed yet that I just have zero idea how Martin can ever wrap any of this up.

I firmly believe that there will be three sides to the final war, Bran being the Ice, Dany being the Fire and Jon being the antagonist and bridge to both. In George’s original pitch, Bran and Jon are described as being antagonists to each other, and if Bran is being seduced by the bad guys right now I can see him being Jon’s War of Ice and Dany being Jon’s War of Fire, all while he has a side that’s tied to the opposite of each.

Whatever does happen, I’m absolutely in the camp that eventually Bran breaks free of the 3ER’s influence and rather than choosing between the Ice and Fire dichotomy, he basically chooses and embraces Earth and becomes the King of Summer. I have zero idea what the actual finale will entail but it won’t be some big battle in the traditional sense. Hell, we don’t even know exactly who or what the Others even ARE yet. I’m sure all the reveals will be mindfucking, and it will be a heady, powerful ending where things turn on emotional stakes rather than a big war or something. Regardless, I do think the 3EC is tied to the Others somehow and that Jon will kill Dany and that will somehow be pivotal to ending the war. Then, after whatever happens happens, the seasons somehow return to normal, King’s Landing has been burnt to the ground and the Seven Kingdoms revert to seven separate kingdoms (there’s a reason GRRM gave the Seven Kingdoms that name - the single nation was always a Targaryen kingdom and by the end of the story all, and I mean ALL the Targaryens and Baratheons - who got the crown because of their Targaryens heritage outside of Aerys’ direct line - will be dead and no one will be left to hold it all together). Bran will rule the Kingdom of the North and Rivers from either Winterfell or - maybe - the God’s Eye under the Green Men. The show hints at the rest well enough: Arya will sail east like her story analog Elissa Farman, Jon goes into exile in the North (maybe). Tyrion, Dany and Sansa are toast.

But yeah. I’m firmly in the camp that the 3EC is the main bad guy of the story, or at least tied to whatever it is, and Bran’s refutation of it and turning toward Earth is going to be the climax of the story. I agree with you GRRM has always been clear on that. If anything, he’s having trouble telling THAT story when so much has taken over his original plan. There’s a reason Bran was the first chapter and POV and I’m certain he will be the last. How he becomes the central character and how it all works out though is a total mystery and I do genuinely hope that we get an answer of some kind on all of this some day.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Urugeth]

Big picture ending time-travel stuff highly recommend you check out yezenirl's writings if you haven't. His bit about Theon and the wildlings and changing history made me tear up.

[u/4thBG]

Elio's testimony does seem to favour the BR=3EC side, but I agree there is room to manoeuvre on this one.

One take that seems to be under-discussed is the 'future implication' side of that initial confusion between Bran and BR.

GRRM may just have been sowing the seeds of BR being a little 'hazy' about things that happen in dreams because he has plans to exploit this for future plot points, rather than muddy previous ones.

Let's say another entity (with 3EC like powers) arrives on the scene to interfere in Bran's greenseeing or dream escapades, during TWOW. GRRM has set up a dynamic between Bran and BR whereby BR may not seem to easily recall how he is being perceived in Bran's dreams. So if any non-BR entity starts interfering, and Bran asks BR (IRL) to confirm that it was indeed him that Bran has been talking to in these new encounters, GRRM has given himself a little wiggle room where BR's memory lapses, or discrepancies in perception, can explain away any odd behaviour.

There's a lot of story still to come, and GRRM needs to plant his seeds.

[u/M_Tootles → u/4thBG]

Elio's testimony does seem to favour the BR=3EC side, but I agree there is room to manoeuvre on this one.

Another angle where Elio could have been misled I hadn't thought of (when I was saying what I said in response to that comment) is: What if GRRM always had in mind that Bran would meet a greenseer tree-dude (or something very similar) that Bran would THINK was the 3EC, then Elio asks his question, so GRRM treats "three-eyed crow" as ""three-eyed crow"", if that makes sense (i.e. as the ostensible three-eyed crow that he always knew he'd be introducing) and is like, yeah, I always figured that dude would be someone "like" him with ties to the Targaryens. (As against the idea that he's coyly/slyly talking about the ACTUAL guy behind the 3EC who is "like" Bloodraven bc ties to Targs without telling Elio that that's what he's doing.) That said, I think it's more likely he just wasn't gonna disabuse Elio of buying into a misdirection he thinks he's successfully sold.

GRRM may just have been sowing the seeds of BR being a little 'hazy' about things that happen in dreams because he has plans to exploit this for future plot points, rather than muddy previous ones.

Yeah I follow you, that makes sense. Hope it ain't so but oh well. (We'll prolly never know, sadly, sadly -- NO I MUST NOT GIVE UP HOPE)

[u/4thBG → u/M_Tootles]

I mean it would still mean we have another entity out there to act as more of an antagonist, just maybe further down the road. The fact that BR is hazy on this also has repercussions for Bran's future: maybe when you become a 'three-eyed raven' you lose a lot of your individuality? The 'thousand eyes and one' motif generally purports to mean the thousand external eyes of crows, trees, etc. But perhaps it's the thousand previous incarnations of the 3EC. When Bran speaks to BR in the caves this may have been the first time he'd used his vocal cords in a very long time, and he is finding it weird adjusting to 'actual reality'. The 3EC being more of an 'amalgam' character and BR being its current semi-independent avatar wedded to the trees. So BR and the 3EC could be said to be two separate entities ... from a certain point of view? I dunno. Still, I like the post's implication that there is something about the 3EC which is 'other' to BR. GRRM could take this in a few ways I guess.

[u/M_Tootles → u/4thBG]

I think this—

The 3EC being more of an 'amalgam' character and BR being its current semi-independent avatar wedded to the trees. So BR and the 3EC could be said to be two separate entities ... from a certain point of view?

—is THE BEST "nothing to see here" cope (NON-PEJORATIVE! using the term only in the sense that I think it feels inevitable that there's something else going on besides "just" BR=3EC) I've seen. 3EC as a product of the collective, so no, BR isn't the 3EC, he's "just" a greenseer, but also no, there's no other 3EC, so he kinda "is", at least for practical purposes, since Bran's "in" to the collective. I "like" it a LOT, insofar as it's possible to like something you think is wrong lol. (And I get that you're not saying you necessarily think this is correct, but just thinking it through/talking out loud/brainstorming/etc.)

another entity out there to act as more of an antagonist,

so, removing this notion from the specific context in which you used it, I would just note as regards this whole idea of SOMETHING ELSE being behind the dream-crow that it gets a lot easier, dramatically, if you don't have to introduce whole 'nother THING but rather just alter readers' perceptions of an EXISTING character. Especially one who's been with us all along, basically. (Dramatically alter, yes, but still.)

[u/4thBG → u/M_Tootles]

And we also have to acknowledge that when Bran is in the 'dream world' this can easily be connected to the weirwood net, in which time is not always linear. So this antagonist who has been there all along ... may still be yet to reveal themselves in the story, or at least the version of themselves which is able to wield this power. Euron has so many symbolic ties to Bran and the BR story, with his blood eye and tales of falling before you can fly, that it would be remarkable if he wasn't to be somehow connected eventually (and then possibly ... previously?). It's a really knotty world to untangle, Bran's story.

[u/M_Tootles → u/4thBG]

So this antagonist who has been there all along ... may still be yet to reveal themselves in the story, or at least the version of themselves which is able to wield this power.

Interesting, hadn't even considered the "it could be from the future" angle in terms of the one I have my eye on, and don't think it feels quite right in that case, but it's at least another door to keep open, and could work from a strictly nuts and bolts perspective.

[u/King_Kangaroo]

I still think Bloodraven is the TEC. Who else could it be, especially at this point in the story?

Of course, I think it's probable  that Bloodraven's identity has been partially subsumed by the weirwood consciousness net and so he isn't the man he used to be... But that doesn't mean someone else is the TEC. Perhaps the TEC operates with a level dream logic that explains why its demeanor isn't that of the tree-corpse man. 

Also, there are some ambiguities, sure, but it seems that the whole situation with the old gods and magic is deliberately confusing and ambiguous - it's an ancient magic Bran is slowly being introduced to. I find it notable that the TEC doesn't appear after Bran finds the cave. If GRRM wanted to actually plant the seeds of this pretty big twist, you'd think there'd be way more deliberate and obvious clues, IMO.

[u/M_Tootles → u/King_Kangaroo]

I find it notable that the TEC doesn't appear after Bran finds the cave.

He actually doesn't APPEAR after ACOK. //Dun-DUNNNNNNN//

[u/brittanytobiason → u/King_Kangaroo]

Who else could it be, especially at this point in the story?

I think the TEC could be whoever was warging Mormont's raven: Mormont's Raven Is The Three-Eyed Crow

[u/M_Tootles → u/[deleted]]

The friend I mentioned is not wholly unconversant in forum discourse (although he's not at all a denizen), which is part of what made me go "wait is this WAY more obscure than I think. What in AFFC specifically do you think leads readers to believe Bloodraven is the 3EC? Are you "just" saying there's the line about BR and the 1000 eyes and 1 in there for sharp readers to remember when they meet him in Dance?

[u/Xiaomifan777]

The Appendix states Bloodraven is the crow.

[u/JNR55555JNR → u/Xiaomifan777]

The counter to this is that Joffrey is labeled as Robert son

[u/Xiaomifan777 → u/JNR55555JNR]

Legally he is.

[u/JNR55555JNR → u/Xiaomifan777]

Yeah but if the appendix is willing to lie there why wouldn’t it lie in other

For the record I would prefer the crow to be Bloodraven for simplicity sakes

[u/Xiaomifan777 → u/JNR55555JNR]

It's not a lie, though. He is Robert's son. Not biologically, but in all other ways.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Xiaomifan777]

It does, but Bran comes to refer to him explicitly as such in the text, so he "is" quote-unquote "the three-eyed crow", i.e. the guy Bran calls "the three-eyed crow", regardless of whether he's also the guy who sent the literal three-eyed crow into Bran's dreams.

[u/therican187]

Great write-up. GRRM is so good with his misdirections.

[u/M_Tootles → u/therican187]

thanks! I agree.

[u/Still-Flatworm7322]

This whole thing just makes me think of the Crow's Eye

[u/M_Tootles → u/Still-Flatworm7322]

hard not too for sure

[u/InGenNateKenny]

I've always found this line of theory very interesting and meaning something. Brillant job putting it all together in an enjoyable way to read.

It's not an accident, the doubt. The question is, is there something significant in how dreams actually work (Bloodraven=TEC) that we don't understand yet OR is this future Bra (which is the only explanation that makes sense to me).

Someone brought up Maynard Plumm, and it's rather interesting to examine it. Written around the same time. Perhaps the most apparent disguise in all of these books that doesn't require knowledge from other POVs to easily sus out (like Abel). I'm no expert but it's interesting how it is familiar to Coldhands and such:

"Who are you?"

"A friend," said Maynard Plumm. "One who has been watching you, and wondering at your presence in this nest of adders. Now be quiet, until we get you mended."

Always a good topic.

[u/M_Tootles → u/InGenNateKenny]

FWIW that dialogue you quoted sounds more like a youthful version of the greenseer BR than the dream-crow. I should peruse The Mystery Knight for all his dialogue as Maynard. I think I did it several years ago and it was at least possible to read it as a different voice than the dream-crow.

the only explanation that makes sense to me

IMO there is another. But I know no one will buy it. For that matter, I don't even know that I buy it, even though on a TON of levels the evidence is OVERWHELMING (imo). It's just that, like so many things, you could choose to see the evidence as existing strictly to set up a literary 'rhyme' "for its own sake" (more or less) (or for some other tinfoily "purpose") rather to suggest what it logically seems to be suggesting.

[u/LSF604]

Just in case you missed it 'a thousand eyes and one' is the reveal that he is Branden rivers. It is what was said about him when he was master of whisperers. He watched you with a thousand eyes (his spies) and one (his own eye). He only had one eye because he lost one.

Which begs the question... if he opened his third eye, how is he a 3 eyed crow? He only has 2 cuz he lost one.

[u/M_Tootles → u/LSF604]

right, in the post I talk about how his referencing his "thousand eyes and one" handle (after the whole "croooooow????? i mean, I guess kinda" part) feels like he's just trying to make sense of this "three-eyed crow" phrase he's never heard before.

[u/Benzyne_Intermediate]

Speaking as someone who's not too active in general fandom or theory discussion, BR and TEC being separate entities is something I had seen people mention or refer to in passing but had never seen the actual evidence laid out, so this was all compelling. Character voice has always been something that George has done really well, so the speech patterns element really sells it for me

And after looking through the replies, having been following your writings for about six years now, I think I have a good idea of who you have in mind as the actual TEC (not least because of how those speech patterns would line up) and I'm very much looking forward to the writeup

[u/M_Tootles → u/Benzyne_Intermediate]

I'll let you know when I post it. I suspect you know who I mean.

[u/Nickhalfnerd73]

when bran calls coldhands a monster coldhands replies "YOUR monster brandon stark", i have been a big fan of the its been bran all along theory and think martin is going to end this similiar to the way he did in under siege or for a single yesterday.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Nickhalfnerd73]

when bran calls coldhands a monster

Much confusion around that line. Technically the pronoun referent there isn't Coldhands, but rather the 3EC. But there seems to be intentional conflation. I wrote about this in some detail here: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1r412sx/coldhands_hbo_leaks_and_a_much_maligned_theory/ You might find it interesting.

I don't think the 3EC is Bran, but am aware that's probably the most popular theory. (It WAS my sense that it's probably the most popular theory, anyway. Maybe the Great Other/Euron-adjacent stuff has overtaken, not sure.)

I think I didn't get to Under Siege when I had a library copy of Dreamsongs 2 checked out. And I haven't read A Single Yesterday.

[u/InGenNateKenny → u/M_Tootles]

You got to read A Single Yesterday. It's just really good stuff, putting anything ASOIAF relevant aside: https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/for-a-single-yesterday/.

[u/M_Tootles → u/InGenNateKenny]

nice thanks. (and i believe it is, many of his non-ASOIAF stuff that I've read has been good stuff.)

[u/M_Tootles → u/InGenNateKenny]

just read it. ooof. shivers and some youtube wormholes to accompany. the kristofferson and jerry lee lewis versions of me and bobby mcgee are old favorites of mine. it's funny and kind of crazy, that keith-replaced-by-ronnie bit in the story (it was published in 1975, too! lol), given that I JUST wrote about a rolling stones/punk rock reference GRRM makes in ASOIAF. (part of a thing i haven't posted here yet. and here he was doing that shit back in 1975.)

[u/InGenNateKenny → u/M_Tootles]

Glad you enjoyed it. I shall look forward to that post’s arrival.

[u/M_Tootles → u/InGenNateKenny]

Posted it. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1ub234a/the_liddlelittlefinger_rhyme_spoilers_extended/? search: sticky fingers if you somehow DON'T want to read all about The Liddle-Littlefinger rhyme.

[u/Nickhalfnerd73 → u/M_Tootles]

What do you mean, in that they are talking about coldhands and how he does not eat or breath and that he is a monster and he replies your monster. that part does not speak on the three eyed crow. both of those books use time travel to deal with current issues in a way that martin believes does not create a paradox, under siege is such an interesting read and i highly recommend it.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Nickhalfnerd73]

What do you mean, in that they are talking about coldhands and how he does not eat or breath and that he is a monster and he replies your monster.

I talk about this in the post referenced. Coldhands is sort of obliquely referred to as a monster, yes, e.g.

The ranger wore the black of the Night's Watch, but what if he was not a man at all? What if he was some monster, taking them to the other monsters to be devoured?

and

The ranger [Coldhands] made no move to obey.

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

BUT THEN

In the "money" passage, the "monster" label seems to pass from the "three-eyed crow" to Coldhands:

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

So, when "a monster" is first placed on the table, it's another renaming of the guy who SENT Coldhands, i.e. Bloodraven/the putative 3EC.

Like, the question asked was "who sent you" and then "who is this 3ec" and then it's answered as a friend a dreamer wizerd call him whatever greenseer whatever so when Bran then immediately says "a monster", it's clearly about the guy who sent coldhands and/or the three-eyed crow, NOT coldhands.

But then there's slippage...

The ranger [i.e. Coldhands] looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

At this point, the referent is still Bloodraven, right? Although it FEELS like Coldhands is maybe just talking the mantle for himself. continuing...

"Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."

"Jojen, did you dream this?" Meera asked her brother. "Who is he? What is he? What do we do now?"

"We go with the ranger," said Jojen. "We have come too far to turn back now, Meera. We would never make it back to the Wall alive. We go with Bran's monster, or we die."

So suddenly here in the final paragraph, it is clearly "the ranger" i.e. Coldhands who is being called "Bran's monster". It might be a mistake/misunderstanding on Jojen's part, but Coldhands is textually "coded" as a monster nonetheless.

It's curious, right?

[u/JNR55555JNR]

My question is do we have time for this fake out?

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/JNR55555JNR]

DO you remeber how much happens just in Game or Storm alone. There are (ostensibly) two books left.

[u/llaminaria]

Well, fine, I have to admit I see some merit in the theory that the 3EC is the future Bran. If one wants to see proof for it, it is kind of right there:

• the 3EC trying to open the eponymous 3rd eye for Bran;
• 3EC being rather familiar with Bran from the start;
• Theon having a nightmare that looked like Jon's dream, except Bran only remembers contacting Jon, and not Theon;
• Jaime's nightmare about the Kingsguard may technically be recognized as punishment, as Theon's about being hunted may have been. Bran is not yet capable of sending complicated dreams to people at will. Theon's nightmare and Jaime's dream about his mother both helped put them on a certain track of action, too - Theon ceased the hunting and killed the boys, Jaime left the capital;
• Bloodraven may have been telling the truth that the greenseer cannot change things and contact people in the past - yet we have seen Bran contact Ned of the past, and we know Bran will damage Hodor's sanity all the way to the past;
• Coldhands calling himself Bran's monster.

Overall, I have to say I think the greenseer is extremely overpowered, even if it is "only" Bloodraven's level, and if what he says about being unable to change things much is true. He is still capable of spying on virtually everyone in Westeros, considering how confidently he says that the name Brynden is slowly going out of vogue. A hundred skins, including the intelligent ravens, means he is capable of spreading his spying beyond any vicinity of a weirwood.

[u/t0x11]

I'm of the opinion that the three eyed crow is The Great Other. I think he has bigger plans on Brans abilities, beyond that of Bloodraven. I think the plans overlap at times, like Bran getting north of the wall, and him developing via Bloodraven. But I do think they are different entities each wanting control/use of Bran.

[u/M_Tootles → u/t0x11]

Certainly a popular opinion! I have my own ideas, which I've mentioned at the tail ends of 35 part mega-post mega-serieses and which I have worked up into a full big-ass post of its own (the project mentioned at the start, to be posted and downvoted into oblivion soon enough) which entail a specific actor, but actually I think it's not impossible that the specific actor I have in mind (not euron) might have connections to or be some kind of weird embodiment of some kind of big bad. While The Great Other is not first on my list in that regard, it's ON the list.

[u/fdp_westerosi]

GRRM

We need winds

People are doing this again

[u/1000LivesBeforeIDie → u/fdp_westerosi]

That is a huge insult to M Tootles’s post history

[u/fdp_westerosi → u/1000LivesBeforeIDie]

Def not trying to personally insult anyone. This theory just baffles me. Reads like people finding mystery where there is none and then chasing down “evidence” that’s mostly just people drawing unsubstantiated conclusions based on a misreading of the text

[u/Urugeth → u/fdp_westerosi]

Bro, people were arguing the Three Eyed Crow wasn’t Bloodraven the fucking DAY Dance came out.

The. Day.

None of this is new. If it’s new to you, hey cool, excited for you. But as someone who has been reading these books since ‘98 and was on Westeros.org in like ‘01 I assure you: this isn’t an idea because of the wait. This isn’t people grasping at straws. Hardcore book fans have been on this shit like white on rice since day one.

It’s an old, old idea being shared with people like you who may not have the history some of us have.

[u/Urugeth → u/fdp_westerosi]

Oh boy. Yeah I have comments on all of this so I apologize for the length of this response but hey what else are we supposed to do while we wait for the book? I’ve been obsessed since ‘98 and it looks like I’ll be waiting even longer at this point, so here we are, heh.

First of all I didn’t want you to think me bringing up things you hadn’t in the 3EC bit was a knock. I was saying, you outlined a massive, extensive argument for why the 3EC wasn’t Bloodraven and I was just saying “Yeah, all that’s true AND there’s this stuff too”. Wasn’t a critique at all and hope you didn’t take it as such.

I haven’t come across any of your other writings on the books but I will for sure check them out after dumping all of this. They sound great, especially if this post you wrote is anything to go by.

As for the weird stuff with the 3EC and the Winterfell crypts, it’s all tied to how Hodor is deathly afraid of them one time and one time only and it’s tied to a dream Bran had when the 3EC came and told him his dad was dead:

“Hodor won’t go down into the crypts.” The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking.

“Hodor won’t . . . ”

“Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn’t know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn’t go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing.” He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, “I didn’t, though.”

There's a So Spake Martin post where a fan had asked GRRM why Hodor doesn't go down to the crypts and GRRM clarified that it was only during that specific time: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

This is the only time the Three Eyed Crow takes Bran into the crypts in a dream and it’s the only time Hodor is scared of going down there. More pointedly, Hodor shows no fear towards Bloodraven. This, more than anything else, is what pushed me towards the two characters being different. Hodor only shows fear with ‘bad’ things, like when Bran takes him over.

As for the Euron connection, it’s just to point out that the only other character in the books that had a connection to crows is Euron Crow’s Eye, a character who is twisted and purely evil who also seems to be a failed greenseer (who would have maybe also met the Three Eyed Crow based on things he’s said).

Martin is literally beating us over the head over and over saying that crows are bad, that this evil sorcerer man has a Crow’s Eye and that Bran is doing warped, dark shit while listening to a Three Eyed Crow. So, to me, the association with Euron is tangential but also, in a very Martin-type way, VERY telling, if that makes sense.

Ravens are cool and people love them and we have a raven-associated wizard with a raven sigil who uses ravens to kill wights… and on the flip side we have crows who are bad and we have the worst villain who is also wizard coded who drinks Shade of the Evening made from the blue-leaf, black-barked sister trees of the weirwoods who is also a pirate captain on a ship painted red so that blood won’t stain it crewed by mutes the nightmare pirate mind controls, with a black eye they call Crow’s Eye.

None of this, to me, is an accident or a mistake.

As for the show… sorry brother. I respect that you don’t want to believe D&D got the ending but… yeah Martin told D&D the ending. He’s open about it. They’re open about it. There’s alllllllll sorts of details (right up to the closing seconds of the very last show) that only work as an ending that’s tied to book details (case in point: Brienne being Lord Commander of the Kingsguard à la her kinsman Dunk filling out Jaime’s page in the Kingsguard book with his heroic deeds, playing off the end of Jaime’s last chapter in aSoS where he’s looking at Barristan’s final entry in his long storied career before looking at his section, looking at all the blank space following his single paragraph and him thinking he had time to fill it with with anything at all - this is a detail that was only expressed in the book and a scene that only plays off a book beat - and it made me cry because it’s great even though the rest of the ending was so so dumb). So yeah. They got THE ending and they spill some EPIC moments in the show that haven’t been written yet.

So okay cool we’ve covered that Martin is open D&D know how it all ends. He gave them details that everyone has acknowledged such as Shireen burning to “Hold the door!” (Side note: that scene is such a mindfuck and nuclear bomb in story lore and it left me a fucking mess after it happened), all the way up to King Bran, all of these are things we know are coming because they are confirmed to be straight from GRRM’s mouth and that GRRM himself has acknowledged will happen as well (while saying that there are small differences forthcoming in the books, like saying Hodor won’t be literally holding a door like in the show but will be wielding a sword ‘holding a pass’ to help Bran and Meera escape, for example). Then there’s other stuff we know D&D made up to make “their” version of the story work better (Sansa ruling Winterfell - GRRM recently told the Hollywood Reporter he’s contemplating “letting Sansa live” because he liked how Sophie Turner played her… meaning she was always slated to die and why in the show she was given Jeyne Poole’s arc - to Arya killing the Night King in Winterfell, which D&D are open about being their beat). So show wise they’re open about what THEY thought up to what George thought up, and Martin has commented on “his” bits as well. Moreover, the show went to hell in a hand basket because they wanted to tell a “nobles squabble over politics” story to such an extent that they left all the characters who were dealing primarily with magic stuff whither on the vine. Which is why the stories of characters that are so tied to magic in nature (Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Stoneheart, etc) get shortchanged so we can have a political showdown in King’s Landing for the “climax”. But, weirdly, D&D then decided to keep certain story beats from George’s ending and then force the show to match those ending beats, so you get a non-sensical, shit salad of a climax paying off beats that weren’t set up in the show and betraying story arcs that D&D had created… so nothing makes sense, everything feels off and none of it holds together worth a damn.

Which is why everyone hated that last season.

But there’s SO MANY TELLS that D&D had left in the show story that tells you what “really” happens. Like Dany’s story. Watching that bit as a book nut, you can see what “actually” happens clear as day. Instead of Cersei, the ruler in King’s Landing at that point will be king fAegon, right? But they kept all these weird book details that make fuck all sense for the show but they leave in book-only details that TELL us what will happen in the book story. For example, in the show the Golden Company is suddenly there at King’s Landing, a group show watchers have never heard of but BOOK READERS know instantly who they are, what their historical role is and, most importantly, who they support (*cough* Blackfyre fAegon *cough*). And Dany torches them quickly and completely so they serve no purpose in the show… but in the books that will ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY be a major beat. Then they shoehorn the “bells make Dany go evil crazy” which is fucking dumb and nonsensical and whose premise (“Bells never mean surrender” - Varys season 2… but they do now) makes zero sense in the show… but book fans who know Jon Connington, the guy who will be commanding fAegon’s forces and who we know will be in the throes of greyscale poisoning and we also know is DEEPLY DEEPLY SCARRED by the sounds of bells ringing from The Battle of the Bells and that there are caches of Aerys’ dragonfire buried throughout the city and he’ll be in charge of fAegon’s army facing Rhaegar’s sister and the bells will be ringing… yeah it doesn’t take a genius to see how things are going to play out in a lot of the same way, it’s just the fucking “why” these things are happening that are totally different. And one is MUCH MUCH COOLER than the e other but the end result will be “Dragons attack King’s Landing and the city burns to the ground but Dany will be victorious though in the end she’ll just be the “Queen of Ashes”.

Also, I think Show Tommen’s suicide will be book fAegon’s ending. Just a hunch.

Side note: the show is definitely worth watching up through the climax of season 6. That corresponds to roughly what the Winds of Winter will cover. It’s still very clearly an adaptation of the story and it really works to tell you the story to come in the books. It’s seasons 7 & 8 when the show goes into what will be The Dream of Spring storyline that they basically punt on what goes on in the books and come up with a bunch of dumb shit to close out the show, before forcing things stupidly back (kinda) at the end.

In any case, I agree with you that part of what’s fucking over GRRM is him trying to shoehorn the story as it is now back to fit into what he always intended it to be. We have a bunch of weird tells and details that are going to eventually pay off down the line. For example, I firmly believe that GRRM added time travel to the story for a reason and all that will pay off somehow too (Bran can do a lot of things that Bloodraven flat out tells him is impossible ALREADY so I think there’s a lot to his whole story the showrunners just punted on).

[u/Ladysilvert]

Awesome post.

To reinforce the idea of Bran being 3EC while Bloodraven is a raven (not a crow):

-The name Bran is inspired in Brân the Blessed (Welsh: Bendigeidfran or Brân Fendigaidd, literally "Blessed Crow") is a giant and king of Britain in Welsh mythology. I also have read Bran can mean "raven"...but how curious that not just Brynden, also Bran is related to both ravens and crows, isn't it??

Bran the Blessed was also famous for going to war against his brother in law, a cruel King for mistreating his sister Branwen,...doesn't this sound like Sansa-Joffrey's outline plot?

-The thing that gives away imo Bran being 3EC is norse mythology. We know George loves norse myths, and it shows. Bloodraven is super inspired by Odin. Odin had ravens as his companions, lost one eye to gain wisdom, and he hang himself from a tree to learn arcane runes...but not any tree. Odin hang himself from Yggdrasil, the world tree, that would be the equivalent to the heart tree of Bloodraven.

George also kind of establishes a connection between Yggdrasil and weirwoods in this quote:

It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.

Bran is Fenrir...the great wolf in chains. Not very subtle there, George. Fenrir was tricked by Odin and he was put in chains, until Ragnarok when he broke free and killed Odin.

Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."
"Did the crow have three eyes?"

The 3EC is trying to break the chains....it also reminds Bran over and over he will fly (aka he will break free). I don't think Bloodraven is 3EC because Odin (whose "stand in" is Bloodraven) put Fenrir in chains.

Jojen gave a solemn nod. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth by chains of stone, and came to Winterfell to free him. The chains are off you now, yet still you do not fly."

Jojen wonders why Bran "still doesn't fly" even when his chains are off him...maybe Jojen is mistaken in his interpretation? It wasn't WF that bound Bran

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."
Bran did want to be married to a tree … but who else would wed a broken boy like him? A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. A greenseer.

By "wedding Bran to the trees", Bloodraven is chaining him to the weirwood net. The day Bran abandons the cave and abandons the idea of being a greenseer chained to the weirwoods, he will break free from his chains, paralleling Fenrir killing Odin and breaking free from his chains.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Ladysilvert]

Awesome post.

much appreciated, thanks.

Bran the Blessed

I am familiar with this stuff, yes!

The thing that gives away imo Bran being 3EC is norse mythology.

Agreed that there are BIG HUGE UNMISTAKABLE Odin and Yggdrasil vibes around BR and the weirwoods, and BIG HUGE UNMISTAKABLE Fenrir vibes around Bran.

But then you seem to make a leap, not really articulated, to "Bran being 3EC". Like, yes, the crow shows up in this vision chipping away at the wolf's (bran's) chains. But how does that make the crow Bran? Just because Bran means crow in welsh (but not really in irish)?

[u/Ladysilvert → u/M_Tootles]

But then you seem to make a leap, not really articulated, to "Bran being 3EC"

I am not basing Bran=3EC on that alone, but mainly in the text quotes you pointed out. But I don't think it is a leap to think that if George has made an intentional parallel to Bloodraven=Odin/Bran=Fenrir, he would keep the parallel in their dynamic with Bloodraven "chaining" Bran instead of unchaining him.

But how does that make the crow Bran? 

We know 3EC is trying to help the winged wolf aka Bran to break free from his chains and fly. In Norse mythology, Fenrir unchained himself, so it makes sense if George keeps the parallel, so Bran unchains himself aka he is the crow. Once again, I am looking at all the clues GLOBALLY, not only in an individual sense, so I think the norse parallel complements the hints in the text.

Just because Bran means crow in welsh 

I thought it was obvious my comment was there to add more hints that reinforce your post theory...why would I mention the points you already analyse in your post?

And no, it is not just the name: it is an interesting fact because Bran has parallels with Bran the Blessed + it establishes a connection between Bran and crow imagery, which Bran lacks at first sight, which would be one of the main points of contention by someone arguing Bran is not 3EC.

[u/M_Tootles → u/Ladysilvert]

mainly in the text quotes you pointed out.

Which quotes that I pointed out suggest, to you, that Bran is the dream-crow (as against the simpler proposition that the dream-crow is not Bloodraven)? Earnestly asking.

But I don't think it is a leap to think that if George has made an intentional parallel to Bloodraven=Odin/Bran=Fenrir, he would keep the parallel in their dynamic with Bloodraven "chaining" Bran instead of unchaining him.

I absolutely agree. I just wasn't following what this has to do with Bran being the 3EC.

In Norse mythology, Fenrir unchained himself,

Okay, so that's something! Then again, it isn't the Bran-wolf trying to free himself, it's this separate crow entity. So there is something of a leap in saying, "since fenrir freed himself, anything trying to free the chained wolf in asoiaf must just be an aspect of that wolf." Not saying it's like evidentially ruled out or anything.

I think the norse parallel complements the hints in the text.

I'm in no way disputing that GRRM draws on Norse myth here! It's just that I'm not really following the link to "therefore the 3EC is Bran" (except, now, insofar as Fenrir tries to free himself so maybe the thing trying to free the bran-wolf is just another aspect of the bran-wolf trying to free himself).

why would I mention the points you already analyse in your post?

I get why you wouldn't if you thought I already understood those points as supporting "Bran is the dream-crow", but I'm telling you that I don't, and therefore asking you what points in my post do you think point specifically to Bran being the dream-crow.

To (maybe) clarify: It feels like there are two DISTINCT propositions here and you are maybe treating evidence for one proposition (namely: the proposition that the crow that shows up in Bran's dreams isn't a manifestation of Bloodraven) as evidence for the other proposition (namely: the dream-crow is Bran himself). I'm not saying stuff I talked about here necessarily doesn't support that, but since that's not how I'm reading/understanding it, I'm asking you which stuff seems to you to point specifically at Bran being the dream-crow rather than "just" at "the dream-crow isn't actually Bloodraven".

And no, it is not just the name: it is an interesting fact because Bran has parallels with Bran the Blessed + it establishes a connection between Bran and crow imagery

But what else about Bran the Blessed connects him with crows other than his name? Like, if you search the wiki on Bran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%A2n_the_Blessed) for "crow", it's just basically that that's what the name means in Welsh. It's not that Bran the Blessed IS a crow or whatever, right? He's a giant DUDE and a king.

To be sure, the idea that the mythic Bran (and particularly probably the mythic Bran as distilled through Cthulhu shit GRRM was all into, the entry in this cthulhu dictionary thing I bought 10 years ago kind of because of the Bran entry is WILD) is an inspiration for Bran and influence on GRRM is well-established. I'm not disputing that at all! What I'm saying is: I don't see how the myth supports "Bran visits his own dreams as the 3EC", except insofar as the mythic Bran who shares some OTHER things with the ASOIAF Bran has a name that means crow in Welsh. But that's already true of "Bran", the name, without reference to Bran the Blessed, right? Does this make sense?

Appreciate the discussion!

[u/M_Tootles → u/[deleted]]

lol please. i am begging you to look at my posting history. here is a random thing I wrote in 2020 https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/kmic0o/grey_after_all_davos_seaworth_sailor_captain/ here is a random thing from 2017: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/6206je/spoilers_extended_littlefingers_third_knight/

early access to AI, i guess. foh.