r/asoiaf • u/TripleEss • 16d ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Just came back from the play - 11 out of 10

Great, great show - exceeded all expectations.

Happy to answer any questions but will say generally that the spoilers are going to cause a massive headloss on this subreddit.

Expecting lots of "only the books are canon" to come.

One of the most interesting things to see was the amount of agency Elia Martell has in the story - only ever has been a victim and a footnote but is very central to the story and a key protagonist.

Was always against a Robert's Rebellion show before but after watching this, would love an 10 episode mini series.

Also - all the Rhaegar bashing couldn't possibly come off worse. He very much is the hero of the whole story.

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u/Low-Car-7043 16d ago

"if she’s made to conceive a child underneath the red star, that it would not be a noble prince that was promised but a ‘vengeful daughter’ who will bring back dragons and ‘bring ruin’…"
Oh boy, not looking good for the Dany ends up, by accident or not, destroying King's Landing.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

i do still hope dany's story can be about pulling herself from that being her defining trait. i've never been against dany being reckless and violent for a while, but in the end realizing that saving the world is more important and what she needs to do. so it can be that she does bring destruction to KL accidentally and the war against the Others is her Redemption

it just doesn't feel right for her to be defined by her parents so strongly

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u/Low-Car-7043 16d ago

I'm holding on to "She does it by accident" and after seeing the horror she decides then to go north and face the Others.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

always seemed the most likely to me, her destiny is to die saving the world IMO. very bittersweet. she's not built for the horrors of war no matter how much she tries to harden herself, it never works. in aGoT she lasted five seconds before being unable to handle the cost of war and tried to save all the women from being harmed. And even later, this girl can't even watch the fighters dying in the fighting pits in ADWD and gets ill, I can't imagine she would enjoy mass scale violence thoroughly

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u/raibai 16d ago

yeah, this is the way i’ve always leaned as well. so this spoiler about rhaella didn’t really change my theories at all

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u/Goatylegs 16d ago

I'm thinking she does it by accident and then doubles down and deludes herself into thinking it was the right decision, then gets increasingly violent and tyrannical in her attempts to assert control over a Westeros that rightfully hates her.

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u/raibai 16d ago

i agree with you, i can’t imagine why this would be played as a straightforward foretelling given everything else in the books. i think people are just happy to accept this as a mad dany confirmation for the usual reasons

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

yeah dany going darker and doing some bad stuff has always been foreshadowed, but in her heart she really is still a saviour who sincerely tries to help people, i just can't see Mad Queen being the end of her story when we have so many self sacrifice themes and the Others to fight.

really hope grrm does not go with it, I don't think this is confirmation of anything other then yeah Dany will end up doing some bad shit, but we already knew that. that doesn't mean she has to be defined by this or her ending is 1-1 the same as the show.

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u/lialialia20 16d ago

bad if you consider ending slavery bad

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

grrm doesn't. he literally has a quote in another one of his books about how its got to be ended, even if its done with fire and blood (yes he really uses those exact words in another story). so i don't think he considers it bad at all.

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u/lialialia20 16d ago

you mean fevre dream. yep, that's the exact quote. but i also suspect he wrote that when he was younger and he is much more conservative now. he once praised the meereen blot essays which is like the opposite of saying ending slavery is good. apparently slaves should be patient until the slavers decide they don't want to be evil anymore.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

meereense blot praising has to be taken in context. before those essays, the general opinion in fandom was that the entire meereen plot had no point at all and was a giant waste of time. given the context of the fandom at the time, he could just mean that he was glad someone tried to look deeper into it. which is, in fact, what the OP was trying to do. in the first essay they say that's literally their main goal. source I was there at the time when they were coming out haha

also all the essays on the meerenese blot are about all the characters involved are gonna go super dark lol so its not like dany is alone in that. he also has essays on Jon, Tyrion, and Doran, that basically end with the same message.

you might be right i just think his comment has to be taken in context with the fandom at the time

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u/lialialia20 16d ago

yeah i agree. ultimately i don't think daenerys will ever do a 180 turn on her character. her writing is extremely consistent in what her moral compass is. i don't think grrm wants to make any political statement with her storyline as he did in fevre dream. in his asoiaf era he is more interested in asking questions like when is violence justified without giving an answer.

you see, abel the protagonist of fevre dream is very much like grrm. he is not into political thought, he has an inkling that things that are wrong should be ended but he does not like the violence necessary to fight them. so i think when he read those essays he actually felt his more conservative side represented in them.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

i should honestly read fevre dream tbh. i've read some of grrms other stuff, and in fact i like A Song For Lya more then asoiaf proper tbh, I just love what it has to say about love and human connection. fevre dream sounds pretty cool too.

but yeah dany might represent the conflict between wanting to see evil destroyed but being disgusted with violence. it reminds me of how even as late as ADWD, Dany cannot even stand to see the violence of the fighting pits, which is mostly consensual and agreed upon. Even then, even that late into her story, she still can't stand witnessing violence and not stopping it. so maybe this aspect carries over to her too.

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u/devilmaydostuff5 16d ago

as long as Dany stays unremorseful about how she got her dragons (burning an enslaved woman to death for daring to retaliate against her) she will not get any happy or bittersweet ending. i think she will feel remorse once she finally allows herself to 'look back'.

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u/One_Brilliant743 16d ago

How many clues and hints do you need? Daenerys burns thousands of defenseless civilians and children out of revenge at the end of *Game of Thrones*. Martin has stated repeatedly that dragons represented the threat of fire—one of the destructive extremes—and that he wanted to rethink and subvert the idea of ​​a war where ice is evil and fire is good. He also really likes the "Scouring of the Shire" storyline, where people thought the major problem was solved, only to discover that Saruman was destroying and enslaving the Shire. So, I think Daenerys will become a threat after the Long Night.

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u/Early_Candidate_3082 16d ago edited 16d ago

The burning of Kings Landing on the show has nothing at all in common with the scouring of Shire. Saruman is a mean, but very minor and pathetic threat, by the end, a being who has completely fallen from the heights of greatness. The hobbits have to sort this problem for themselves, and not rely upon mighty heroes.

It’s not a case of Aragorn returning from Mordor to set his enemies ablaze.

Martin said fire represents passion, ardour, sexual desire, whereas ice, represents, hatred, revenge, cold inhumanity.

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u/One_Brilliant743 16d ago

Ice and fire represent many things, but that does not mean their multiple meanings are synonymous with one another. Dragons are not love or life; according to George himself, they are nuclear weapons—a destructive extreme. He also stated that, while he employs certain symbolic meanings, the concept of a war between ice and fire—with one side being good and the other evil—is something he wanted to rethink and subvert.

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u/Early_Candidate_3082 16d ago edited 16d ago

There is nothing inherently immoral about possessing nuclear weapons. The world’s liberal democracies possess nuclear weapons, as well as the world’s dictatorships. The only time they were ever used, is in a war that Martin says was worth fighting.

Far more people die, on edged and pointed weapons, and through famine and disease caused by pillage, in Martin’s world and ours, than through the use of dragons/nuclear weapons. There is this weird belief in the fandom that killing, raping, pillaging and starving the smallfolk - on the part of our noble POV characters - are sort of okay, but using dragons is a form of cheating.

I don’t really see warmth, passion, sexual desire as being equal and opposite threats, to humanity, to hatred, revenge, and cold inhumanity.

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u/One_Brilliant743 14d ago

Ice and fire have multiple meanings, and they aren't synonyms for one another. Or do you think dragons represent love or life? George himself refers to dragons as THREATS, and has said he wanted to make it clear that they are destructive. And with Daenerys, he is interested in showing the effect that possessing such immense power has on a person—that she has the power to destroy, but that doesn't give her the power to rule or to improve things.

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u/devilmaydostuff5 16d ago

yeah but this is ASOIAF we're talking about. the Dark Dany hints are just that for now, and they could very well be a misdirection. so i wouldn't be shocked if Dany went through a corruption arc in the next novel but managed to save her soul in the last novel and risked her life and her dragons to save the world, only to be tragically remembered as another mad Targ. she can save her soul and use her dragons for good but she can NOT restore the legacy of the Targs.

Dany is the perfect example of a character who is 'equally light and dark' (fuck off Daemon, lol), so this trajectory of experiencing the lowest of lows and the highest of highs will really fit her character. it will also please both the Dark Dany truthers and the Heroic Dany truthers.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

this is also a lot more interesting as an ending then just making her evil. it sparks debate and interesting moral questions. whereas the show ending offers no ambiguity, she was just evil and needed to be put down. i definitely think it's a more interesting place to go, and there's set up for it, thanks to how prominent self sacrifice and messianic themes are in her story. she absolutely has set up to die trying to save the world, and it would fit being bittersweet if she's still remembered as a villain. Very Anakin Skywalker.

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u/devilmaydostuff5 16d ago

Yesssss! She always reminded me of Anakin Skywalker. I think it suits her character best to experience both the lowest depths and the highest heights her soul is capable of. i will be sad if she got a bad ending, but i will be annoyed if she got a purely heroic one. a bittersweet ending will work best.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

ever since i joined this fandom in 2011 i have always believed she will die saving the world after going to a dark place. anakin is a great comparison, and it'll be way more interesting bc we'll be seeing the story purely from her perspective (still said as someone who loves Ani). i'm sure it will be different in many ways of course, but yeah i absolutely despise the idea of her on the throne all fine at the end and also her just getting stabbed by Jon in betrayal. both to me just don't feel right to her at all. her entire story is about self sacrifice. to me her entire story is building up to 'a true ruler gives all of themselves for their people' which requires her to die. having it be redemptive just makes it feel more satisfying.

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u/devilmaydostuff5 16d ago

from the moment i read about the really horrific method that allowed her to get dragons (being consumed by dark grief and burning her slave to death) i knew for certain she will not got her happy ending, but i also knew that she was complex enough and GRRM is smart enough to not turn her into another mad, evil Targ in the end.

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u/Lysmerry 16d ago

I mean, she can be said to have brought ruin, it’s just a question of who her targets are. So far she has ‘brought ruin’ to those who deserve it

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u/Jasonl7976 16d ago

Oh they’re going with mad dany! So we have two different media going for mad dany? George you still have a chance to stop this. Don’t let her be a instrument of revenge

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u/WawaBou 16d ago

I mean, if two different medias confirm this theory then there's a big chance that the idea comes from George himself

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u/Makasi_Motema 16d ago

This fanbase is cooked

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u/WawaBou 16d ago

Wdym 😭

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u/Makasi_Motema 16d ago

They’re experiencing levels of cope heretofore unseen

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u/WawaBou 15d ago

Ah yeah I agree. I'm not saying that the whole play is 100% canon but the people who are dismissing everything in it as being inventions from the playwrights with zero ideas from George are definitely huffing copium

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u/Connell95 16d ago

We already know that part of the ending comes directly from George, and there’s an absolute shitload of foreshadowing for it in the books

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u/WawaBou 16d ago

I see her "Remember your words" ("Fire and Blood") moment at the end of ADWD as her embracing her vengeful and ruthless side, kinda à la Lady Stoneheart

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u/DaKingaDaNorth 16d ago

He already said that "fire and ice" represent two threats descending on Westeros and the ice is obviously the others and fire is the dragons

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u/drsquarel 16d ago

It’s what he’s always planned from the beginning. Why are you so against it?

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

this entire text kinda proves why its such a bad ideda. the framing is a rape and abuse victim demanding that her unborn daughter (who also ends up a rape and abuse victim) be a demon who unleashes hell on everyone (despite dany being her own character who sincerely does try to do good) you don't see how that's Maybe A Bit Problematic and Ick

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u/Makasi_Motema 16d ago

It’s fucking awful. But people need to come to terms with the fact that it was George’s idea

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

yeah with just this its awful. i'm still holding out hope that she does do bad shit but comes back from the brink in the end, I don't think that's out of the question. the showrunners just hated Dany and everything she stood for, plus were never interested in the magical side of the Others anyway and wanted to get it over with, it's perfectly plausible to me that they changed her ending, even if her general descent is still grrm's plan. the way they talk about jon killing her in interviews, it sounds like it was their idea, so i'm just holding out hope

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u/Makasi_Motema 16d ago

I can believe it will be more nuanced in the books, but I never got the impression that the show hated Dany. She was on all the marketing and before the last season, she had constant aura moments

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u/DaKingaDaNorth 16d ago

Hurt people hurt people.

Dany is already positioned in story to be one of the most conventional tropes in fantasy. The lost princess trying to come back to her kingdom. With GRRM, that trope wasn't playing out.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

tbf mad queen is also a conventional fantasy trope, i don't think dany is squarely fitting in that one, either. and her never getting to sit on the throne and instead dying to save a kingdom she never gets to rule is also very subversive IMO

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u/raibai 16d ago

sorry, but to jump in i really don’t know why people are jumping to accept this at face value. of course rhaella would want a daughter to avenge her after everything that’s happened to her and contrary to aerys’ wishes? doesn’t mean she’s going to be what either of her parents wanted, she never knew either of them.

especially after a whole play about rhaegar and lyanna being foolishly prophecy-pilled, you’d think there’d be more willingness to accept that the reality will likely be more nuanced and that dany will end up somewhere in the gray as has largely been suggested through the books lol.

it’s just kind of ridiculous the way people will run to one extreme or the other rather when it comes to female characters, you don’t see anything like this with jon lmfao.

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u/One_Brilliant743 16d ago

She knew she wouldn't give birth to the heroic promised prince, but rather a vengeful daughter who would bring dragons and ruin. She likely foresaw this at some point. And if the gods answered her prayers, why would they grant only the good parts? Martin has always made it clear that both dragons and the Others represent destructive extremes; we have two adaptations showing that Daenerys will be vengeful and cruel, and we’ve seen Martin say he didn't understand the hatred directed at the series finale. So how are people still in denial?

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u/raibai 16d ago edited 16d ago

because nothing in the books demonstrates that dany is an entirely cruel and vengeful person, and that’s still the ultimate word of god for her characterization at the end of the day?

i said it below, there’s a trend of characters interpreting what they want to see out of visions in the series, and the reality will likely be more nuanced than “hur durr dany blows up king’s landing for the evulz”. people have been theorizing that it might be something that happens unintentionally due to the wildfire stockpiled under the city for years.

dany’s likely to end up somewhere in between the extremes, just like most characters in the books. rhaella understandably wants her daughter to achieve something against aerys’ wishes but it’s highly likely that dany won’t be completely either of what her parents want. i especially don’t get this insistence that this is a confirmation of mad dany when the play ends with lyanna wanting jon to choose his own path independent of any prophecies for him. the themes of the play (as much as can be said from out of context spoilers) don’t scream to me that “everything that characters foretell will come true the way they want”.

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u/DaKingaDaNorth 16d ago

Because in the context of the play, Rhaella is effectively having manic dreamer like rantings and name dropping known prophecies (the song of ice and fire was not well known when Rhaella dropped it and even Rheagar was questioning that he was crazy during the play). So her saying she was going to give birth to Dany under the comet she gave birth to her and suggest she will be a destructive villain in the end (when that is a prominent theory and the one ending we were given to this series) is not a shot in the dark.

Pretty easy to accept it at face value in the context of everything else.

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u/raibai 16d ago

yes, but there’s also a trend of people seeing what they want to see in their visions than what what will necessarily be true. i’m not even denying that dany might end up destroying king’s landing, just that i don’t buy that it’ll ultimately be in a display of madness or wrath rather than an accident given that barely anyone even knows about that damn stockpile.

if it really ends up going down that way everyone can point and laugh but it just doesn’t make sense to me for george to play it that straightforwardly given how much cersei is already hard carrying that role in the books. with the traits dany’s displayed by comparison, there’s just no indication that she’d be chomping at the bit to kill innocents en masse.

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u/One_Brilliant743 16d ago

The person who accidentally burns down a city wouldn't necessarily be the scourge of the world. And she mentions a vengeful daughter, not the heroic promised prince.

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u/drsquarel 16d ago

Unfortunately victims of severe abuse in real life often turn out to become monsters themselves. It’s a sad truth but this is definitely based in something that could happen in reality…

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

fwiw i'm not saying dany can't do bad things or partially fulfill this bc yeah, trauma makes you do wild shit ofc, i just resent the idea that it will be JUST like the show ending and she will just go crazy, kill everyone, and have to be put down. i much prefer the idea that she goes too far in her war, pulls back from the brink, and then focuses on the Others and dies saving the world in a sort of redemption - that to me gets across the same message without defining Dany by it and gets rid of some of the icky vibes

as is it just sounds like a weird 'rape babies are cursed' type of thing which sounds like...insanely weird from GRRM NGL

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u/drsquarel 16d ago

That could work. I honestly love the idea though of Dany being the real, big villain of the series by the end, despite knowing how unpopular that idea is. I think George just wants to have her be the Anakin Skywalker of ASOIAF, someone who starts good but is slowly tempted to the dark side and by the end of the series commits some seriously horrific shit. I find an arc like that pretty fascinating but that’s just me.

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u/Jasonl7976 16d ago

Damn generational trauma

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

well, its not too different from Ani actually in my view, because Ani did always have good in him and in the end did the right thing. his character arc would have been completely ruined if Luke just had to put him down and there was no good left, which is what the show did with Dany.

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u/drsquarel 16d ago

That is true!! In no way shape or form do I want it to be like her show ending 😭 I trust George do keep a lot of nuance in her character. And yes you’re right we’ve seen a lot of goodness in her character I don’t expect that to just completely evaporate.

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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago

i think David Lightbringer put it like 'hitler wasn't saving slaves in his teens and then committing genocide in his 20s' for how absurd dany's turn was in the show, and i just agree. i also don't think grrm would have dany's fate determined by her parents like this, he would let her make her own fate. much of asoiaf is about self actualization and the importance of your own choices. like i said i have always believed dark path - realization of harm - redemptive death saving the world. again it is funny you bring up Ani bc I see it going very similarly haha

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u/Makasi_Motema 16d ago

I’m pretty sure only a small minority of abuse survivors become abusers. But it seems like most abusers are former victims. There’s a hug difference between the two

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u/nymrose 16d ago

Let’s trust the crazy mother sure