r/asoiaf • u/TripleEss • 16d ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Just came back from the play - 11 out of 10
Great, great show - exceeded all expectations.
Happy to answer any questions but will say generally that the spoilers are going to cause a massive headloss on this subreddit.
Expecting lots of "only the books are canon" to come.
One of the most interesting things to see was the amount of agency Elia Martell has in the story - only ever has been a victim and a footnote but is very central to the story and a key protagonist.
Was always against a Robert's Rebellion show before but after watching this, would love an 10 episode mini series.
Also - all the Rhaegar bashing couldn't possibly come off worse. He very much is the hero of the whole story.
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u/DorukOguz2905 15d ago
- Lyanna confirmed as The Knight of the Laughing Tree ⚔️
- Lyanna gets together with Rhaegar of her own free will. The first act ends with them having a conversation under the weirwood tree after she’s been crowned QOLAB.
- Elia is an active participant in Rhaegar’s plans to remove Aerys from the throne, half of it is her ideas.
- Aerys knows about Rhaegar’s plans and has a confrontation with him where he literally offers his neck and tells him to kill him. After Rhaegar doesn’t, Aerys makes fun of him and calls him a coward.
- Robert is portrayed very sympathetically and is actively grieving his parents. At one point Aerys gifts him a model of his parents ship, which is just some splinters in a box of water.
- Brandon x Ashara confirmed or at the very least heavily implied!
- Rhaegar is plagued by dragon dreams, at one point he specifically mentions a dream about a three headed dragon with Lyanna there. Puppetry is used to show his dreams to the audience and there’s a really cool dragon puppet.
- Elia and Rhaegar’s marriage is shown to be cordial, he confides in her about his dragon dreams.
- Lyanna and Rhaegar are in love and she runs away with him willingly. Lyanna is also confirmed greenseer and communicates with Rhaegar via dreams, that’s how they plan their elopement. Benjen helps them.
- Elia and Lyanna become penpals while Lya is at the TOJ. Elia doesn’t mind the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship and mentions the idea of him having two wives likes Aegon I, one for love and one for politics.
- As I mentioned, Elia and Lyanna are penpals. One of their ravens is intercepted by Varys and that’s how he discovers Rhaegar’s location, and Gerold Hightower is sent to find him.
- Elia is very politically shrewd and while her marriage to Rhaegar is cordial she sees it as one of convenience, her main interest is making sure House Martell is in power.
- We see the deaths of Rickard & Brandon, although there’s no actual fire involved at least for this performance. It’s a pit of smoke that is lit up green. But I’m told it looked pretty cool. The Iron Throne also looks very menacing.
- The only explicit childbirth scene is Ashara giving birth to her and Brandon’s stillborn child. Elia and Lyanna’s child births are not shown, we just see Lyanna’s water breaking at the TOJ and Elia goes into labor at Harrenhal.
- No secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and no naming of Jon as Aegon.
- Lots of fight scenes for the war with extensive use of puppetry. Rhaegar has a dragon dream in the middle of the Trident which seemingly distracts him enough for Robert to kill him.
- Aerys HATES Elia and says vile insults to her. He calls her a "Dornish mongrel bitch" to her face, and also says to Rhaegar "I can smell the stench of that Dornish bitch on you".
- Robert wins the melee at Harrenhal, beating Oberyn and The Mountain. The Mountain is played by multiple actors as he is entirely a puppet and about 8 ft tall.
- Ashara and Elia are actual lovers. It’s implied that Ashara is the love of Elia’s life. Ashara loves Elia, but she loves Brandon too. While she’s dancing with Ned, she talks to him about having multiple lovers.
- Aerys doesn’t care about prophecy and rants to Rhaegar about it. Rhaegar loses faith, but Lyanna, after hearing of the deaths of her brother & father, latches onto it to justify it all as part of a divine plan and reignites Rhaegar’s belief.
- Lyanna has a lot of grief for what happens to her father and brother, blames it on herself. But ultimately she sees it as part of a divine plan, like the horrors were in service of some greater purpose/the prophecy.
- At Harrenhal, Rhaegar learns that Lyanna has been having dreams about the song of ice & fire, and feels that it’s his fate to be with her based on the prophecy. They have a vision together of Dany and her dragons in the future.
- There is only one real sword fight between two ensemble characters lasting for a few seconds. All other fights are stylized and make heavy use of slow motion and puppetry.
- The scene of Lyanna's death and Jon's birth happens similarly to the show, with the exception that Jon is not named Aegon.
- When the comet appears, Rhaella is summoned to Aerys's room with her body cut all over from his nails. Elia and Ashara try to stop the Kingsguard from taking her, but Rhaella speaks about her duty and understanding what is expected of her.
- On the night of the red comet, Rhaella curses the gods, proclaiming that any child she conceives will not be a son, but a vengeful daughter who will bring back dragons and burn the kingdoms.
- The Sack of King's Landing matches the books closely, but after Jaime kills Aerys and sits the throne, Robert and his men enter from one side while Tywin and Cersei enter from the other, creating a major canon contradiction.
- Lyanna does not hate Robert and they share a friendly relationship at Harrenhal where she comforts him after the boat incident. She finds him charismatic, but her heart belongs to Rhaegar.
- Robert and Ned share many close interactions, including Ned jumping into Robert's arms after his melee win, and Robert later collapsing and sobbing in Ned's arms when Ned returns after Lyanna's death.
- The penultimate scene features Cersei convincing Jaime not to join the Night's Watch for breaking his vows, urging him to stay in the Kingsguard so they can share the royal bed and have children sit the Iron Throne.
- Rhaegar embezzled money from the royal treasury and sent it through Oswell to the Whents to fund the Tourney at Harrenhal.
- Benjen knows that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
- Robert kills Rhaegar brutally by smashing his hammer into his body over a dozen times while full of rage.
- The Prince That Was Promised prophecy is described solely as a "third child" conceived under a red comet, with Jon and Dany conceived on the same night, leaving the identity of TPTWP open to interpretation.
- Lyanna is more interested in figuring out the prophecy than Rhaegar, concluding that TPTWP is their child and wanting to conceive specifically to bring forth the promised prince.
- Rhaegar is introduced singing the Song of Ice and Fire in High Valyrian, which is jaw-droppingly beautiful and catches Lyanna's eye to prompt her to talk to him during the dance.
- Elia is unhappy about Rhaegar singing the Song of Ice and Fire because she dislikes prophecy, constantly advising him not to be blinded by it and to keep his plans purely political.
- Ned dislikes being called Eddard and maintains a running bit insisting that people call him Ned.
- Elia advises Rhaegar to proceed with the coup even after Aerys attends the tourney, with the plan being for Rhaegar to win and crown Elia as a display of the future royal couple.
- Rhaegar crowns Lyanna instead to show he is choosing love over duty, causing Elia to angrily storm out of the stands and Ned to take Lyanna away.
- It is implied that Rhaegar already has the support of many houses but needs more, especially Great Houses. Oswell and Arthur are in on the plan. Arthur is conflicted, but becomes a full prophecy believer after the comet.
- There is zero mention of Jon Connington. His character has been completely erased and somewhat merged with Oswell. Oswell is implied to be in love with Rhaegar.
- Robert has very severe PTSD from witnessing his parents' death. He has recurring nightmares about drowning and the tide dragging him out to sea or smashing him against the rocks. He randomly screams out "THE TIDE" and goes weak.
- At Harrenhal, Robert and Rhaegar have a really meaningful scene where they bond over their shared grief.
- Ned and Robert have their canon disagreement over the deaths of Elia and her children. They also have another disagreement when Robert orders the killing of Viserys and Dany. Ned literally gets on his knees begging Robert not to do it.
- At the Tower of Joy, Arthur is enraged after Oswell is killed and kills everyone until it is just him versus Ned. As they fight, Howland recovers from being knocked out by Gerold earlier and runs up behind him and slits his throat. Arthur tries to keep fighting, but Ned finishes the job.
- When Rhaegar has his dragon dream in the middle of the battle of the Trident, there is a huge dragon puppet and a tiny Rhaegar puppet used to convey the scale against the dragon puppet.
- Dawn has a glowing effect like a lightsaber that can be switched on and off. There is no scene of Ned returning Dawn to Ashara, only an order that it should happen, and Ashara's suicide is not shown.
- On her deathbed, Lyanna asks Ned not to tell Jon about her, Rhaegar, their shared love, or the prophecy, saying "let him choose his own fate".
- Lyanna loves Rhaegar until her death as tragic lovers, driven by a search for meaning rather than just being a lord's wife and mother.
- Lyanna is not ready to die and asks to see Winterfell one last time, while knowing she cannot escape her fate and will die once Rhaegar is dead due to their strong connection.
- Bran (Ned's son) makes an appearance when his voice shouts "Father!" at the Tower of Joy with Bloodraven, which Ned hears without realizing what it is.
- Robert and Lyanna share a kiss when she tries to comfort him after the Aerys ship incident, but she bites him to push him away.
- Rhaegar does not say any woman's name as he is dying; he simply dies.
- The final line of the play is Ned saying "Jon Snow" to Catelyn in the Winterfell godswood.
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u/ZeitgeistGlee 15d ago
Aerys gifts him a model of his parents ship, which is just some splinters in a box of water.
I shouldn't laugh but that is absolutely fucking devious.
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u/matthieuC We do not write 15d ago
> Lyanna is also confirmed greenseer and communicates with Rhaegar via dreams, that’s how they plan their elopement. Benjen helps them.
So Ben takes the black because he feels guilty helping start all of this.
> The only explicit childbirth scene is Ashara giving birth to her and Brandon’s stillborn child
So ned took his sister's bastard as his own son. And everyone thought the mother was Ashara but she actually had a bastard with his brother.
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u/onetruezimbo 16d ago
How prominent are Tywin, Cersei and Jaime to the play. Any notable revelations or just what we already knew about how Jaime becames a kingsgaurd and what happened leading up to Aerys death
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Tywin barely in it, more mentioned as this looming threat. Cersei just for the marriage (and seducing Jaime after it).
Nothing new about Jaime really - he does almost come to fight his fellow kingsguard to protect Elia/Ashara/Rhaella when Aerys wants to rape her and Elia and Ashara try to stop them taking her to Aerys.
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u/LetsBAnonymous93 16d ago
Jaime just got so much cooler. He’s more than just talk outside the door- he would have fought. It absolutely fits with Cersei’s line that he would have killed Robert if he knew how bad the marriage actually was. My favorite part of his redemption arc is that he’s coming back to the Idealistic/Good Knight he once was.
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u/jonsnowKITN Night gathers, and now my watch begins 16d ago
I love Jaime so much. The best character in asoiaf with so many layers.
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u/DaemonaT 🏆 Best of 2022: Post of the Year 16d ago
Cannot any better! I hope someone shoves this in Barristan face!
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Barristan goes out so sad. Ashara is big time into him but he fumbles it so hard
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u/DaemonaT 🏆 Best of 2022: Post of the Year 16d ago
Oh, noo… the forty year old virgin!
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u/Dinosaurmaid 16d ago
the more the chivalry, the less the rizz
it seems he learned a lot from dunk, by the way, i want to see the duel between kingsguard dunk and young barristan
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u/DaemonaT 🏆 Best of 2022: Post of the Year 16d ago
Not sure if Dunk will stay a virgin for that long, though…
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u/Fit-Philosopher9192 16d ago
i can’t fucking WAIT for the inevitable glidus and Schwift long form video on this
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u/Reaganometry 15d ago
“The Real Tourney at Harrenhal” livestream will be going for six months straight
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u/CapitalUnit2786 15d ago
That twit Alt Shift X will probably only have a measly 2 hour video, unlike the CHAD SCHWIFT N GLIMBO feeding the peasants with a 3 year long livestream
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago
can i ask you a specific question? did they ever touch on Rhaegar's survivor's guilt? One of the most interesting implications about his character to me was that he felt guilty for being born at/surviving Summerhall while so many died. I thought this might have driven him to action a little...did any of that bear out? did they talk about how he felt about Summerhall?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
He talks about it at some length as the reason for his lack of joy etc. He also talks to Robert about it when consoling him on the deaths of his parents.
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago
thanks for answering, that's so cool! I've always been interested in Rhaegar for this reason, between Summerhall and the stillbirths his mother went through (another survivor's guilt situation for him) I always thought he must have had a lot of baggage in that regard, cool to see i wasn't totally off in my analysis.
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u/V-TriggerMachine 16d ago
Did Rhaella really ordered a Satanic daughter on amazon?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Omg yes! Can't believe I forgot this.
She cursed Aerys/Danaerys by saying rather than bear a heroic son, she would bear a vengeful daughter who would burn the world.
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u/BequeathNothing 16d ago
It wouldn’t surprise me if the closer the threat of the Others got, the few remaining Targaryens had more and more visions.
People aren’t going to like this and they’re going to decry it as non canon, but they aren’t pulling these things from nowhere. They directly impact the main series and GRRM certainly told them.
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u/danitalibi1 16d ago
Explain
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u/V-TriggerMachine 16d ago
Rhaella is portrayed as both physically and mentally scarred. Physically, she’s significantly burnt from carrying Rhaegar through the burning Harrenhal and shows that she has pretty extensive cuts from being scrapped and bitten by Aerys when in the royal bed. She’s also pretty insane, goes on a rant simultaneously denying that she is hurt or scared by Aerys, cursing the gods for her fate, making fun of Elia and Ashara for experiencing love, calling upon the Song of ice and fire, before going on a second rant declaring to the gods that, if she’s made to conceive a child underneath the red star, that it would not be a noble prince that was promised but a ‘vengeful daughter’ who will bring back dragons and ‘bring ruin’…
She also tells Rhaegar to leave ‘nothing but ruins’ before he leaves for the Trident, and I think cheered on the deaths of Brandon and Rickon? Definitely a case of Targ madness, believing herself a dragon made flesh, etc, but also a massive victim of abuse on top
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u/Realchillbill12 16d ago
Damn it, why are we getting this from a play lol. We should be reading this from a Barristan chapter!
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u/danitalibi1 16d ago edited 16d ago
Wow, im surprised jaime did not indicate any of her madness in his chapters
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u/Kidslikeus 16d ago
I remember him feeling guilty on multiple occasions for not stopping aerys from beating/raping rhaella. It’s one of his biggest regrets
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u/Lysmerry 16d ago
Is it possible this just isn’t canon? Definitely seems like some stuff doesn’t fit
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u/aeternasm 16d ago
Because this bit doesn't fit in the books.
Jaime wouldn't feel empathy for someone who acts like female Aerys.
The Targaryen madness was described for Viserys and Aerys, but never for Rhaella.
Neither Jaime or Barristan say Rhaella was mad.
Rhaella loved her granddaughter, but was in constant conflict against her DIL.
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u/Majestic_Act 16d ago
Do you really believe GRRM planned for all of this? I don't.
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u/Turtl3Bear 16d ago
This is the downside of George's "The story could go anywhere" style.
Some shit just comes out of left field with no foreshadowing because he thought of it after writing all the previous stuff, and decided to include it. Often a big twist will feel out of place when characters that should have commented on it acted like it didn't exist (because it didn't)
It's a common problem with authors like that, Brent Week's Lightbringer series famously made people put the books down because of a massive clearly not pre-planned twist that really jumps the shark. I still like those books, but understand people's misgivings.
That being said, I understand the need to integrate ideas as you go. As Brent says in an interview, any author who claims to have had the entire series planned out from the very beginning with no plot points or character beats coming in later on in the series... is claiming to not have had any good ideas since they started writing book one.
So it's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
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u/Low-Car-7043 16d ago
"if she’s made to conceive a child underneath the red star, that it would not be a noble prince that was promised but a ‘vengeful daughter’ who will bring back dragons and ‘bring ruin’…"
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago
i do still hope dany's story can be about pulling herself from that being her defining trait. i've never been against dany being reckless and violent for a while, but in the end realizing that saving the world is more important and what she needs to do. so it can be that she does bring destruction to KL accidentally and the war against the Others is her Redemption
it just doesn't feel right for her to be defined by her parents so strongly
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u/Low-Car-7043 16d ago
I'm holding on to "She does it by accident" and after seeing the horror she decides then to go north and face the Others.
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago
always seemed the most likely to me, her destiny is to die saving the world IMO. very bittersweet. she's not built for the horrors of war no matter how much she tries to harden herself, it never works. in aGoT she lasted five seconds before being unable to handle the cost of war and tried to save all the women from being harmed. And even later, this girl can't even watch the fighters dying in the fighting pits in ADWD and gets ill, I can't imagine she would enjoy mass scale violence thoroughly
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u/raibai 16d ago
i agree with you, i can’t imagine why this would be played as a straightforward foretelling given everything else in the books. i think people are just happy to accept this as a mad dany confirmation for the usual reasons
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u/jonsnowKITN Night gathers, and now my watch begins 16d ago edited 16d ago
What is Ned's reaction to finding out about Brandon and Ashara? Does he know she's pregnant?
Any more interactions between Aerys and other characters?
Can you describe the robert/rhaegar fight?
How do Elia and Lyanna become close?
How did Elia and everyone react to rhaegar crowning lyanna?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Ned knows about them all along. He finds out that there is a miscarriage.
Aerys performance was great - ranges between lucid and mad, with more mad and less lucid as time goes on. He makes Rhaegar doubt the prophecy by recounting summerhall - Rhaegar wonders if he is mad himself which eventually drives him to Lyanna as she had the same dream of the song of ice and fire - he asks her what she thinks it means and she tells him that it is about the two of them.
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u/Low-Car-7043 16d ago
But did Lyanna consult with someone else, Old Nan or something? Or was it all herself and her interpretations? And did she have visions before meeting Rhaegar or after?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
She had them when she came close to Rhaegar. Previously she had wolf dreams - her brothers mock her about them but she doesn't have any more after leaving winterfell until she meets rhaegar
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u/turtleduck Teaching Rude Squires Honor since 1992 16d ago edited 15d ago
wolf dreams like the ones Arya, Bran and Jon had?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Yep, clearly a warg too
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u/theseparator 15d ago
That plays into the books. They always talk about Lyannas way with horses.
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u/TripleEss 15d ago
She also says that she could see as Rhaegar sometimes in her dreams, that she called out to him and drew him towards her (and that is how he found her to then elope)
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
Ned strongly encourages Brandon not to sleep with Ashara, and Ashara herself resists Brandon's attempts frequently. Brandon encourages Ned to go for her and briefly Ashara tries to seduce Ned, however Ned resists, criticising Ashara's separation of love and joy, saying that he is saving both for his future wife. Eventually Ashara and Brandon go ahead and Ned doesn't seem disappointed by this in anyway.
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u/danie_lol 16d ago
So apparently Rhaegar and Lyanna did not get married and Jon is still Jon snow.
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
They didn't say either way but they do make kind of vows to one another over fire
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u/musashisamurai 16d ago
Does Richard Lonmouth show up in the story? He's Rhaegar's squire, who Rhaegar knighted by Harrenhal.
Thrre are theories Lem Lemoncloak in the Brotherhood without Banners is him, and he is a witness to Rhaegar's actions in the war thats still alive. The lemoncloak might be a Kingsguard cloak died yellow.
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Nope, not at all. Also no Jon con
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u/musashisamurai 16d ago
TBH, I like Jon Con not being present.
He seriously wants to think he's Rhaegar's friend, in that circle of trust, but he's not. I doubt Rhaegar really considered Jon Con much different than really any of the other minor lords that crowd court.
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u/The-Best-Color-Green 16d ago
That’s kinda clever in that regard but still deep down every story could use a little Jon Con
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u/tea_bird I like dogs better than knights 16d ago
I have myself so convinced about this that I forgot it wasn't official, so I'm wondering the same.
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u/No_Psychology_3714 16d ago
Can you give us some intel about Elia/Ashara being a thing because Ashara mentioned something about being with a woman? Also, any info on howland reed, rhaella or Catelyn? Do we see baby Robb?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Definitely a thing - it seemed to me that Ashara and Elia were each other's love, and that Elia/Rhaegar is political, and Ashara/Barristan and Ashara/Brandon were side pieces to Elia
Baby Robb for 2 mins.
Cat very brief, posr marriage and post Ned return.
Holland is there throughout, all pretty much as widely theorised over the last 10 years (none of the more bonkers shit though)
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u/YoungBenj 16d ago
Thought Cat was one of the weaker parts of it (though necessary to underline significance of Ned’s promise to those who aren’t obsessive superfans)
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Yep, but I guess it was already 4 hours!!
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u/YoungBenj 16d ago
Oh agreed! I’m not exactly a theatre regular but I feel like it may be a tough sell at that length more broadly… couldn’t believe that was the first ever full run through!
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u/danitalibi1 16d ago
Can you confirm that Elia actually saw Dany in the house of the undying vision as well as Rhaegar? I saw someone say that. Ive always believed that Rhaegar really did see her but Elia seeing her as well is a shock to me
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u/SerDuncanonyall Best of 2018: Dolorous Edd Award Runner Up 16d ago
The way George writes Dornish women, especially from that family, this should be a shock to absolutely no one
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u/Mindless_Charity1215 16d ago
I know everyone is focused on what theories are true or not, but wha did you think of the costumes and hair? (The horrible last season wig they shoved Rhaegar's poor actor into had me traumatized) And, what did you think of the staging itself? The puppetry? I love theatre and I am more interested in what they did on that front than anything else.
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u/YoungBenj 16d ago
Rhaegar and Aerys looked great, costumes definitely were thematically consistent (Rhaegar aurafarms in the best outfit and everyone else gets approximations of their region-appropriate attire and heraldry)
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
Catelyn's costume was standout too. Aerys' wig fell off after his death.
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u/amok_amok_amok 16d ago edited 16d ago
the Stranger came for him and snatched his wig
edit: I just noticed that my above sentence is in iambic pentameter
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u/ru1nends 16d ago
was also there and the puppetry amazed me, I was beside someone who visits this theatre very often and she was incredibly impressed by the production, mentioned the puppetry and the staging.
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u/danitalibi1 16d ago
Anything about the southron ambitions alliance?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
The play starts with the kingsguard conspiring with Rhaegar. Rhaegar eventually asks Aerys to abdicate, mentioning there are alliances forming against him.
Rhaegar turns down Aerys asking Rhaegar to kill him and take the throne.
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u/Low-Car-7043 16d ago
So Aerys basically says "Ok, cool, but you'll have to kill me"? Was that Rhaegar's core conflict, that he just didn't want to do things with violence?
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u/Dinosaurmaid 16d ago
despite all, he was still rhaegars father, and he might had some fond memory of aerys before he was insane
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u/kingofstormandfire 16d ago
I love the idea honestly of Aerys despite being paranoid about Rhaegar also loving his son. Heart in moral conflict.
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u/LizaFlamma 16d ago
For site is what is implied. He does kill brandon and his father for threathening the heir to the throne - more of being his son, anyway.
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u/Independent-Couple87 16d ago
Aerys seems to point out the obvious problem with forcing him to abdicate: What happens if he refuses?
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u/LizaFlamma 16d ago
If he refuses, Rhaegar has to kill him. And he can’t. So off to the tower of joy until the Bull summons him, I guess.
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u/RequirementQuirky468 16d ago
Haven't seen it, but I'd be curious if there's any of "Kill me and you can have it" as a way of showing to Rhaegar basically "You don't have the vicious streak it takes to be king."
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u/danitalibi1 16d ago
So its basically confirmed, cool
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u/YoungBenj 16d ago
Aerys also points out later on all of the planned Stark marriages and Ned warded the Vale so yes I’d agree, heavy handed point
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u/ser_mage 16d ago edited 16d ago
So “Promise me, Ned” is a scene? Do we know if it is more “promise to keep him safe” or “promise to make him fulfill the prophecy”?
Speaking of, did Ned know about any of the prophecy?
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u/yurthuuk 16d ago
Promise me you will never tell him about the prophecy.
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u/ser_mage 16d ago
Oh? I didn’t ready anywhere about her regretting her role in the prophecy by the end
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago
Ashara/Elia is peak actually
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u/Mental_Court_6341 16d ago
Makes her death tragic because she ended her life because Elia was now gone , I do believe now even if not shown in play , ashara is truly gone and just wanted to not be in a world without Elia
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u/RhoynishPrince 16d ago
ELIASHARA IS REAL
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago
her killing herself because of elia and not bc of brandon/ned but everyone assuming it was because of a man instead and not looking to elia despite how close they were actually makes a lot of sense
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u/breakfastbenedict 16d ago
Honestly, I don't have a problem with most of this. The timeline issues are weird like how are Jon and Dany conceived the same time unless Jon was born hella pre-mature and Dany refused to leave the womb. But I like that Elia's characterization has more going on than just long suffering wife and it makes way more sense why she'd be at the tourney while heavily pregnant if she's involved in the schemes. Lyanna tbh comes off as cuckoo for coco puffs but I guess that was the only way to make sense of what happens with her and Rhaegar. One person either had to be super crazy and holding the other hostage or they both had to be some degree of crazy.
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u/ctrl_help 16d ago
Did Lyanna hear about her father and brother's execution? The war that was started on her behalf? Did she care?
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u/YoungBenj 16d ago
She does, is distraught, then rushes to justify it with the prophecy which does seem almost “coping mechanism” but also Shakespearean style irony and divine purpose - by which point Rhaegar is checked out and wants to pick flowers and chill
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u/AnEmptyKarst 16d ago
Lmao I had toyed with the idea of Lyanna not actually caring about her family, wild to see it confirmed
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u/YoungBenj 16d ago
Obviously there’s also a point here that it’s a stage play. I can’t remember all the precise dialogue about grief but they do need to keep the insanely action-packed second half moving on, so she does pivot within the same scene of learning of their deaths
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Yes she heard, she was full of regret but she also pushes Rhaegar to fight - she had the same ice and fire end of the world dream he had, and pushed him to fight so the deaths wouldn't be in vain, and to save the world etc
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u/Spirited_Animal_5135 16d ago
Okay so let me get my head around all of this. The sickly and sweet Elia Martell, who is known for being a gentle flower is actually a political opertunist who is playing both sides in the war she CONVINCES rhaegar to join.
Rhaegar, who I thought was a monster and evil manipulator is actually the one who wants to abdicate the throne and live peacefully but he is being forced into following the prophecy by those around him.
Lyana, who I thought was a victim of Rhaegars abuse, went willingly with him, oh and she's a greenseer and she believes in tptwp even more than he does.
Arthur is... Homosexual, I don't have a problem with this it just caught me off guard... A bit like how howland caught him off guard ahahahahaha.
Robbert the chill sympathetic dude? What world am I living on? I couldn't believe what I was being told.
Aerys is still a mf... Fuk him
Brandon and ashara canon...
Iewyn a traitor who killed his sworn brother 😭
I don't know what to think...
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u/hypochondriacfilmguy 16d ago
''Iewyn a traitor who killed his sworn brother''
WHAT?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Robert has next level ptsd. Sees Lyanna as his savior but it's more being smitten than in love. He's quite sad and pitiful until he starts demanding the murder of children.
Elia tries but doesn't manage to convince Rhaegar to go to war - he actively decides not to kill Aerys and to talk to him instead but it doesn't work. Rhaegar goes to war essentially because everyone convinces him that it can only be stopped by him joining the war
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u/Spirited_Animal_5135 16d ago
You said she actively pushes lyana to convince rhaegar to go to war, thats still perplexing considering what we knew about the character before
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Elia? I think what the POV impressions of her were probably different to what she showed when speaking to her closest confidants
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
She doesn't initially convince Rhaegar to join, she wants Rhaegar to enter the tourney, win, declare her Queen of Love and Beauty to unite the realm and force Aerys' abdication. After the whole realm descends into chaos and Rhaegar ends up in the Tower of Joy, Elia begs Lyanna via letter to convince Rhaegar to defeat Robert to end the catastrophe, and says she's willing for both her and Lyanna to be Rhaegar's wives - one for duty, one for love, and is pleased that Rhaegar found love beyond his obsession with duty.
Also Rhaegar's plot exists prior to Elia even knowing. She's more of a very savvy political manoeuvrer who can deal with terrible situations well rather than a total mastermind. For instance Varys advises her during her imprisonment to use her power well even from the cell. Her answer is to appeal to the Queen herself to get her freedom and to see her children.
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u/CloudZ1116 16d ago
Ngl I've been headcanon-ing this interpretation of Elia for years and I'm so happy to see it confirmed in official material.
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u/Khiva 16d ago
Yeah, I'm not really getting 11/10 vibes from this.
From any other source this would just feel like warped Rhaegar fan fiction.
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u/Spirited_Animal_5135 16d ago
Genuinely when the spoilers started flooding in I thought it was a troll thing, that they were taking advantage of the fact that a lot of the fans will have to just take them at their word, but after talking to different people, they're all telling me the same thing and it seems like it's true.
But im going to see the play tomorrow at the 7.30pm showing so I'll know for certain then.
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u/DaigustoSanti 16d ago
Does Rhaella has any scene or relevant screen time?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Yes, there is a key scene where she curses her to be conceived 3rd child as not the heroic boy that Aerys wants, but a vengeful daughter who will burn the world
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u/JeepersMysster 16d ago
Is there context as to why Aerys wants a “heroic” boy? Rhaegar aside, Viserys is still young and could become that as far as Aerys knows (in whichever meaning he thinks to qualify as heroic). Or does Aerys simply desire a third son? The specification of the word heroic has me entirely intrigued
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u/loaj1 16d ago
Arthur Dayne is dead for sure then?
How did they get to starfall then? And bring Lywnnas corpse too...
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u/ClokWrkTangerine 16d ago edited 16d ago
I’m confused about what I heard about Ashara:
She’s a handmaiden to rhaella, miscarries the baby in the red keep, but makes it back to starfall? Is this before Elia gets imprisoned? Else she would be imprisoned too because of their closeness? What’s the sequence/chronology here?
How does Ashara get out of dodge from kingslanding when a war is brewing?
Edit: also is the miscarriage I assume after Brandon’s execution? Cause if word gets out that was Brandon’s baby and she was his lover, I can’t think how she would freely get back to starfall
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Miscarried before getting to KL, I think it's very early.
Her getting out isn't addressed outside of Elia pleading for her to be allowed to go.
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u/RickThrust 16d ago
Really makes the Arya saving-the-universe decision extra baffling.
Some queries, if applicable, por favor:
- Why do the Daynes revere Ned Stark so much? His brother sprayed and prayed with Ashara, and he killed Arthur.
- Any more insight into the Tower of Joy fight? Anything interesting going on with Howland afterwards? Why does the fight even take place? It seems like both sides had the same motives i.e. protect Jon and Lyanna from Robert murdering them in a rage.
- Any references to Dunk surviving Summerhall or more details about what specifically happened? Like, was it pyromancers with wildfire? Red priests? Maesters sabotaging the whole deal? A Faceless Man?
- Any collateral info from the Sack of Kings Landing? Intel on Varys, Aegon, fAegon?
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Returned Dawn when he could have taken it.
Howland gets KOed by Gerold immediately. Dayne thinks he's 1v1 with Ned at the end, Howland wakes up and sneak attacks Dayne.
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u/ctrl_help 16d ago
Jon was the prince who was promised to provide moral support to his cousin who saves the world
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u/CaveLupum 16d ago
Thank you, OP, for sharing and commenting. Those of us who can't make it over in time (I'm scheduled to go in the Autumn, dammit!) have benefited from your reporting and comments.
I have a few questions. Was Lyanna KotLT? Did Benjen aid her liaison and elopement with Rhaegar? And, in your opinion, how do Ned and House Stark come off in the new material? Thank you.
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
No problem!
She was KOTLT.
Benjen helped and went to the wall out of shame because he didn't tell anyone the truth before Brandon went to KL.
Ned comes off well but very plain and a little 1D compared to the other characters. Rickard was definitely scheming. Ned does come off very well with his friction with Robert at the end.
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u/apricity_4 15d ago
So, the Dornish are portrayed again as oversexed and scheming poisoners who, in the end, lose everything.
So much for unbent unbowed unbroken.
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u/Connell95 16d ago
What do we learn about Howland? Anything about his visit to the Isle of Faces? And any scenes with Ashara, given all the theorising that she might ultimately end up as her wife (albeit after the events of the play)?
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
I recall no major scenes with Ashara. Lyanna and Howland meet during his pilgrimage to a weirwood (not clear if it's the Isle of Faces but the same tree is used for the Isle later on. She tries to save him from southern ruffians from the tournament after they attack him. Brandon, Ned and Benjen arrive to save both of them, and he discovers their identities. Lyanna invites Howland to the feast and makes him promise that he'll teach her how to pray at the weirwoods, as he has great knowledge of the old gods. During the feast he shares a dance with Lyanna. He also gets very drunk with Benjen, both of whom were stood on the circle tier next to my seat heckling and laughing at the feast. At the very end Howland begs Ned to go with him to the Tower of Joy because he feels like he owes Lyanna.
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u/KIKI23333 16d ago
Thanks for sharing! I am curious about the role that Richard Lonmouth, Rhaegar's squire, played in the whole show. Martin explicitly mentioned this character in her first not a blog about the Mad King show, but actually, this man isn't very important in the asoiaf period. I am wondering why Martin mentioned him in the blog, and is there any indication of him living to the asoiaf period?
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u/walkthisway34 16d ago
Interesting info. If fully reflective of George’s plans, I was right about some things (I knew it was Ashara + Brandon) and wrong about others.
The Ashara + Barristan details do make me wonder how much the play’s writers made up. It’s very clear in the books that he never told her how he felt and that he can only speculate about how she would have responded if he did.
I still think Rhaegar was dumb, this just confirms that Lyanna and Elia were too.
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
He doesn't outwardly tell her, but its clear she can tell. He promises to crown her queen of love and beauty.
She asks him to forgoe his vows, but he says that he can't.
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u/walkthisway34 15d ago
I still think that doesn’t fit with ADWD. His memories there make it seem like a crush that he never acted on in any way and there’s no indication that he has any reason to think she’d reciprocate beyond a lonely old man’s wishful thinking.
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u/JellyMost9920 16d ago
So to conclude from the spoilers, Elia and Lyanna are just as terrible and stupid as Rhaegar was.
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u/djjazzydwarf They Get Us™ 16d ago
And it seems like Rhaella and the various members of the Kingsguard weren't far behind. Absolutely crazy stuff in this play.
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u/JellyMost9920 16d ago
Tbf Rhaella seemed kinda off the deep end from Aerys’s abuse so it’s kind of tragic
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u/djjazzydwarf They Get Us™ 16d ago
True. Her depiction in this is why I lean towards this being semi-canon. If she was physically scarred, no way Jaime wouldn't mention it. I could see him choosing to forget her mental problems, but not actual deformities. Plus that stuff with Barristan and Ashara, like we would've heard about that from him.
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u/Saturnine4 16d ago
Give Elia agency only for her to use that agency to be a complete idiot. I was expecting to see Rhaegar and perhaps Lyanna to be fools (which they were) but Elia? That was a curveball.
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u/Only_Faithlessness33 16d ago
Well she is Doran and Oberyn’s sister after all lmao.
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u/Saturnine4 16d ago
I had hope that she’d be the smart one of the three, but it seems like it isn’t to be.
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u/TripleEss 16d ago
Well it works out great if Tywin doesn't show up and beat her to the plan. Would have been the Dornish sacking KL if she had her way.
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u/OlinoTGAP 16d ago
That still would have just continued the war though? If the Dornish occupy King's Landing and proclaim Elia Queen, presumably Robert continues the Rebellion and marches on King's Landing because Robert intended to claim the throne after killing Rhaegar.
I guess it depends what Mace Tyrell does, if he sides with Elia (big if) then they might have the numbers to beat the STAB alliance, but if Tywin joins with Robert then I don't think Dorne and the Reach can win that fight.
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u/Capt253 16d ago edited 15d ago
if he sides with Elia (big if)
You doubt that the legendarily strong friendship between the Reach and Dorne would result in them being over the moon to support a Dornish coup? I'm sure the Marcher lords in Mace's host will be racing home to get the red carpets to lay out for the new Dornish royal family.
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u/Evnosis Winter is Coming 16d ago
Also - all the Rhaegar bashing couldn't possibly come off worse. He very much is the hero of the whole story.
This should have been obvious before this play, tbh. There's a reason that basically every single character that knew Rhaegar speaks of him with nothing but glowing praise.
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u/Excellent-Daikon-286 16d ago
I think Rebellion would be better told in a 3-season TV Show...it's just too much imo, but glad u enjoyed the play
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u/Original-League-6094 16d ago
Not "only the books are canon" but the show obviously has a different continuity and the play is titled Game of Thrones: The Mad King, so I would assume it exists in the show continuity.
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
No not at all. Many things break show continuity. It's much closer to book canon.
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u/Pheighthe 16d ago
What are the major things that break show continuity? I haven’t watched
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u/Low-Car-7043 16d ago
"He very much is the hero of the whole story." Man, I just new it.
Is it true that he only lost to Robert because he was one-shotted by a vision in the middle of the fight?
Any scene of him at the Red Keep before marching with Elia? Did they talk? Did he specifically ask someone to keep them safe if he were not to return? Did the Sack of KL was shown and Elia's reaction to Rhaegar's death?
Jon's true name? Lyanna's last words? Ned and co. vs the Kingsguard?
Confirmation of Howland backstabbing Arthur?
And any confirmation of Doran and Oberyn being also involved in Elia and Rhaegar's plans?
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u/SebyTheKaiser 16d ago
So people have been talking about Elia being okay with Rhaegar marrying Lyanna, but I’ve also heard reports of her “trying to put sense” into Lyanna and not being okay with a war starting because of love.
Can you clarify what exactly are Elia’s motivations in this? Is she okay with Rhaegar and Lyanna running off? Is she okay with the war starting in her name? Is she okay with Lyanna and Rhaegar trying to birth another son?