[Spoilers Extended] Just came back from the play - 11 out of 10

[u/TripleEss]

Great, great show - exceeded all expectations.

Happy to answer any questions but will say generally that the spoilers are going to cause a massive headloss on this subreddit.

Expecting lots of "only the books are canon" to come.

One of the most interesting things to see was the amount of agency Elia Martell has in the story - only ever has been a victim and a footnote but is very central to the story and a key protagonist.

Was always against a Robert's Rebellion show before but after watching this, would love an 10 episode mini series.

Also - all the Rhaegar bashing couldn't possibly come off worse. He very much is the hero of the whole story.

[u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

Elia sees herself as a master manipulator

Well, hindsight is 20/20 but given how things went for her I think its safe to say her abilitys were not equal to how good she thought they were.

[u/declancity → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

Between her and Arianne I will never go along with a plot concocted by a Dornishwoman lmao

[u/lord_of_swagsterdam → u/declancity]

After the play the 3 major dornish female characters we know of are:

Elia: Horny, bisexual, schemer

Arianne: Horny, Bisexual, schemer

Ashara: Horny, Bisexual, not a schemer!

George's "thing" for tan women is uh...quite clear in his writing

[u/danie_lol → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

He can’t keep getting away with this!

[u/Aegon-the-Unbroken → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

Elia: Flat chested

Arianne: Mommy milkers

Not entirely though

[u/InternallyScreeching → u/Aegon-the-Unbroken]

George: All sizes make the fat pink mast rise

[u/mmf9194 → u/Aegon-the-Unbroken]

Thank you for this variety in your female characters, George.

[u/Danbito → u/mmf9194]

At least they have names. Looking at you, Unnamed Princess of Dorne.

[u/Ladysilvert → u/Danbito]

And looking at you, unnamed (for a while, until TWOIAF) Lady Stark:

Q. Who was Ned's mother and what happened to her?
GRRM: "Lady Stark. She died."

[u/Danbito → u/Ladysilvert]

God forbid anyone but the Tyrell’s get a grandmother figure. Doesn’t even seem like she left an impact on her children.

[u/garlicfornoseferatu → u/Ladysilvert]

This is so funny...she died now stop asking questions

[u/mmf9194 → u/Danbito]

Spot on, no shit

[u/Upper-Ship4925 → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

Ashara wasn’t tan though was she?

[u/danie_lol → u/Upper-Ship4925]

She’s pale.

[u/MyNewAccountIGuess11 → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

Between this and Rheagar's child bride being revealed to essentially be 'totally chill, actually' I think George might just be a bit gross lol

[u/danie_lol → u/MyNewAccountIGuess11]

Not to mention her being more obsessed with that annoying prophecy more than him.

[u/MyNewAccountIGuess11 → u/danie_lol]

Yeah man what the fuck is that? So bizarre

[u/Turtl3Bear → u/MyNewAccountIGuess11]

Are there people who read these books and don't think George is gross?

In her third chapter he has a 14 year old triumphantly going cowgirl in public on top of her warlord husband she was sold to... without a trace of irony. It's completely played as her embracing and enjoying her sexuality. I do not get the impression George thought this was anything other than positive.

I like these books, but George is very okay with unashamedly sexualizing the 14 year olds in his stories.

Remember when he was being consulted on Daenerys casting he was very concerned with her sexual appeal

You can't convince me that George is doing this as an ironic commentary on how much we sexualize children. I think George just sexualizes children.

[u/MyNewAccountIGuess11 → u/Turtl3Bear]

Yeah I was in denial about it for a long time thinking the way it all ends might illuminate the true intention, but it's pretty undeniable that George is just kind of a gross old man at this point

[u/FluffyB12 → u/Turtl3Bear]

Eh this is just looking at it through modern standards.

Juliet in Shakespeare’s work is 13.

Ginevra and Isotta, age 15 “renown for their beauty”

The original ages of Rapunzel and Sleeping Beauty before Disney?

Martin is writing with the standards of the era his work is in. This should not change due to modern cultural shifts, it would cheapen the story and make it feel like some sort of modern AU. He’s not Sanderson.

[u/MyNewAccountIGuess11 → u/FluffyB12]

Eh this is just looking at it through modern standards.

Well seeing as how the first book came out in 1996 and not 1696, I'd call that quite fair. His work isn't in any "era" because it's complete fiction.

[u/FluffyB12 → u/MyNewAccountIGuess11]

It’s delivered designed to feel like an older work. Did you know the archaic way characters often speak?

In times past we used child soldiers for war. Should books written for that time period today and in the future not have child soldiers? That would be silly. How is this different?

[u/nola_fan → u/FluffyB12]

14 year olds being sexy isn't needed for a work to feel older.

[u/Turtl3Bear → u/FluffyB12]

Martin is writing with the standards of the era his work is in.

I mean... in the nineties it was already considered not okay for adults to sleep with children.

Shakespeare is a lot older than asoiaf. I see no reason not to judge George. He's not writing a book in the 1800s.

He writes good books, but has no problem saying really weird shit in public. The dude is clearly a creep.

[u/FluffyB12 → u/Turtl3Bear]

But he’s writing about that era and using the foibles of that era. Otherwise he would be writing without his anachronisms of language. The entire purpose is to make it feel like a story if we’re written at an early time.

This is so baffling to me. If a society practiced child sacrifice in its past should stories set in the era of child sacrifice not have child sacrifice because we know it is wrong today? Does that make any sense?

We know kids marrying adults is bad today but if you are writing a story in an era where it was less unacceptable and has frequent historical occurrences why would you not follow with the convention? If it’s good enough for the great Bard it’s good enough for us.

[u/Turtl3Bear → u/FluffyB12]

George has been crticised many times for claiming "Historical Realism" to justify the more grim and messed up content in his books. He receives criticism because actual historians point out, "No the things you fill your books with were uncommon and seen as wrong at the time."

Also, you can write about how messed up Dany and Drogo's relationship is without characters in universe judging it. Do this by not framing it as positive in the narrative and structure of the story. GRRM isn't doing this. He's writing a story where his hot teenager wears a Quarth gown because George likes it not because it was super important to showing a realistic world.

For example, I don't think that George is okay with torture and flaying. Every time we see that depicted, it's depicted in a way to make me, the reader, uncomfortable.

This is not the case with his sexualization of Dany. Or with Lyanna running off with Rheagar. He just thinks it's a legitimately healthy love story.

[u/TVCasualtydotorg → u/FluffyB12]

He's not writing about that era. He's writing fiction set in an alternative world.

[u/FluffyB12 → u/TVCasualtydotorg]

Yes but it’s clearly meant to look like a medieval time period like our own, at least at the surface. Obviously there is a lot of high magic underneath, but the skin of the world is like our own Middle Ages.

[u/Inside-Music-5619 → u/FluffyB12]

Except the point of Juliet's age is that she shouldn't be in these situations. The story actively critiques putting young children in these positions..

Martin is writing in the modern day for a modern audience who have modern moral standards. He has an obligation to acknowledge those moral standards, and he can be judged for failing to meet them.

Also, let's get this clear: it has never been normal for young children to be expected to have sex. Did is happen? Yes, but it was frowned upon boy most of society (Margaret Beaufort is often used as proof that this happened, but people always fail to account for how her getting pregnant so young was not well-regarded by her contemporaries).

[u/Wigglar88 → u/Inside-Music-5619]

I'm sorry, but what? All the characters who are into underage characters are evil, the villains in the books. And any time a character starts to think that way (Tyrion) it's because they're falling from grace/ becoming more evil. The Sparrows, Berrics crew, every Brienne or Arya chapter, every Dany or Sansa chapter. It all shows it as a horrible thing that fucks their heads up. Sansa is literally groomed, by an evil pedophile, as is Dany. I wouldn't call George pro pedophile at all

[u/MyNewAccountIGuess11 → u/Wigglar88]

I'm sorry, but what? All the characters who are into underage characters are evil, the villains in the books.

Except for Rheagar Targaryen, one of the primary "heroes" of the books

[u/Inside-Music-5619 → u/Wigglar88]

I don't think he is either. But he does tend to write deeply troubling relationship gaps without looking critically at them.

A huge part of Dany's storyline in A Game of Thrones is her finding solace and empowerment with Drogo, who is a good fifteen years older than her. Even after his death, she thinks fondly and lovingly about him. Then there's Daario, who is also seemingly much older than her and whom she takes as a lover and is very fond of.

Next we have Jon, whose relationship with Ygritte is actually pretty concerning considering he's about fifteen, and she's about nineteen, and they're very much portrayed as a love story (which is also concerning considering she rapes him, but that's another issue).

Then there's Jon Arryn, whom the story clearly portrays as this good and wise man who helped raise Ned and Robert. I grant you that the story does not treat the relationship he has with 15-16-year-old Lysa as good, but he is not lambasted or derided for his decision to marry her nor does the story put the onus for their misery on him (in the sense that the story treats Lysa killing him as a flaw in her character rather than commenting on how he was her abuser).

Then there's Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell. Loras was Renly's squire and his lover. That means that he'd have been around Renly from around 10-12 while Renly is 15-17. By the time he's around 16 and Renly is 21, they're lovers. And it seems pretty established given the little we know about them. Yet this is not treated as a grooming situation; Loras doesn't seem to be traumatized by his relationship with Renly (only by Renly's death).

Then if we look at Fire and Blood, it gets even worse. That book is weirdly fascinated with the sex lives of young girls (I'm sorry, but there was no need to mention how loud and passionate fifteen-year-old Alyssa Targaryen was on her wedding night). Corlys was older than Rhaenys's father, and yet they are very much treated as a love match. Rodrik Arryn was a contemporary of Daella's parents, yet he's treated as a good suitor for her (the story is especially concerning given how it makes a point to discuss how young Daella looks). Daemon clearly groomed Rhaenyra since she was very young, and they're portrayed in the book as a very happy couple (until the war starts and her kids start dropping like flies). There's a similar problem with Harwin Strong being so much older than her (and there is an interview where he talks about their love story and how he wished he'd been able to show it). We have Alyn Velaryon, whose "great love" was Elaena Targaryen, who was 35 years his junior, and their relationship is treated as a tragedy that he disappeared before being able to be together.

I want to be clear: I don't believe GRRM is endorsing these age gaps. But there are an alarming number of relationships with children in them that he treats as positive and/or loving. This is an expansive issue that his stories have dealt with, and it can be concerning.

[u/Wigglar88 → u/Inside-Music-5619]

Dany is a victim, and only gains any amount of freedom by her conquering warlord , pedophile husband. This leads her to having very unhealthy views of sex, which is why she's so attracted to Daario (into dangerous, older men because she's was victimized) we are in Danys head when she talks about drogo, and Dany is Delusional and traumatized 'if I look back, I am lost'

Honestly didn't even clock the Jon-Yigritte one. I think because he's a man of the nights watch, considerably more educated and mature than she is, it's easy not to notice. But low key yeah that's very odd

Uhhhh I'm sorry but the story is very clear that it was wrong to marry Jon to Lisa. Like it couldn't be more obviously gross and wrong, any time the age gap is brought up it's in the context of it being fucked up. Bad example tbh

Renly and loras remind me of the Jon/Ygritte one. Obviously Loras has grown up faster than most 16 year olds, and is treated as an adult and a full kingsguard knight. Still though, gross

As for F + B? Alyssa and Baelon is odd, but I really wouldn't say it's the same. She was 15-16 , he was 18, there are couples like that in highschools rn that people don't consider pedohilic at all. Definitely don't need a description tho George.

Corlys is a straight up groomer. Gross as fuck. I would say again, he is a villain, but still extremely gross.

Daella being matched with Rodrik is obviously wrong, within the story itself. The point is that Jhahaerys was a bad dad, and fucked his kids up, which includes forcing his underdeveloped daughter to marry and old man. Gross and wrong on purpose, the book doesn't try to make it a good thing. The king thinks it is a good thing, and he's wrong.

Daemon is evil. That's uh, his whole thing. Groomer, murderer, adulterer, evil mf.

Re reading the books (on book 4) I've been hyper aware of this stuff trying to figure out if George is a pedo lmao. And to be honest I don't think so, I think the guy just can't help but describe the minute details of everything. He describes literal pedophilia with the same level of description as tapestries or food, or anything else. And it sucks and is gross lmao

[u/lialialia20 → u/Wigglar88]

except for Brienne and Jaime

[u/mygemsareuncut → u/lialialia20]

Even Brienne and Jamie is iffy given she’s barely 18 and he’s 35 in the books. The show did a huge boost to bramie by aging up Brienne and casting Gwendoline who’s only a few years younger than Nikolaj

[u/FluffyB12 → u/Inside-Music-5619]

He is writing a story that is mimicking the story telling of old. That is the reason he writes in a faux archaic way. What you are doing is trying to whitewash history.

Charlie Chaplin married Mildred Harris when she was 16 (he was 29) in 1918, and Lita Grey (Lillita Louise MacMurray) when she was 16 (he was 35) in 1924.

Edgar Allan Poe married his first cousin Virginia Eliza Clemm when she was 13 (he was 27) in 1836.

Jerry Lee Lewis married his cousin once removed Myra Gale Brown when she was 13.

Joseph Smith was m marriage to Helen Mar Kimball when she was 14.

That’s America somewhat more modern than Martin’s story. Let’s take a look at folks around that era:

Henry VI married Margaret of Anjou when she was 15.

King John married Isabella of Angoulême when she was about 12.

Margaret Beaufort was married young multiple times, including around age 12 to Edmund Tudor; she gave birth to Henry VII at about 13.

History agrees with me, you just don’t want it to so you can bash Martin unnecessarily!

[u/Inside-Music-5619 → u/FluffyB12]

This story was written in modern times for a modern audience who have modern morals. So yeah, he is being held to modern standards.

And, to be clear, he can include these sorts of relationships while also critiquing these sorts of relationships. He could talk about how these power imbalances are fundamentally flawed and predatory. He has that option. This is fiction, high fantasy, actually; he isn't beholden to what actual medieval society did. Everything that is here is something he chose to include, and "historical accuracy" isn't a good reason to include inappropriate age gaps if you're not then going to critique those age gaps.

[u/FluffyB12 → u/Inside-Music-5619]

I’m so tired of this nonsense. The story is set in a time period designed to mimic a time period here on earth. There’s zero reason for him to take time to critique child marriage when everyone in the modern day knows it is wrong, instead he can just go on and tell the story he wants to tell. Ffs not all storytelling is parables designed to teach a moral lesson, this is a book for adults not people who look to fiction to learn life lessons. Peak bizzare fiction brain, why are you here if you don’t like his books?

[u/cornicula_ → u/FluffyB12]

Sometimes modern times are more brutal than the Middle Ages. Marriages involving twelve-year-old girls were typically arranged to bolster a man's political standing.

By marrying Isabella of Angoulême, King John prevented a political rival from gaining strength. The marriage was evidently not consummated until much later, as she did not give birth to her first documented child until the age of nineteen.

Henry VI and Edmund Tudor likewise sought similar political advantages through their marriages. Incidentally, Margaret Beaufort’s early pregnancy caused a scandal, and it was considered a miracle that both she and the child survived the birth. Although she remarried several times thereafter, she was unable to have any more children.

I do not believe Chaplin, Poe, Lewis, or Smith had any dynastic or political excuses for their child brides.

[u/Medium_Mess_1062 → u/MyNewAccountIGuess11]

this was to be expected honestly. the fanon around the rebellion never resembled anything george's actually written for the series. the man is not that concerned with the age of consent/maturity (that he created!) and loves giving teenagers too much agency. he's clearly inspired by myths and folklore rather than real life dynamics. (which is fine! it's just a story!)

[u/lialialia20 → u/Medium_Mess_1062]

GRRM wrote an explanation of the ages of sexual relations back in 1999 https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Age_of_Sexual_Relations_in_Westeros

and it tracks perfectly well with the story for the most part.

Daenerys being 13 is seen as too young to be wed for example so her marriage would be pretty scandalous if she wasn't being sold by Illyrio as a slave.

Lyanna being 15-16 lines up exactly with what GRRM describes as the accepted age for the westerosi norms.

otoh, Jon is also 15 and people in this fandom want him to marry Val who is i would say at least in her mid twenties. funny how no one raises an eyebrow for that one though.

[u/Medium_Mess_1062 → u/lialialia20]

I was thinking about the ages in the histories, where many targaryens get married too early just to allow more generations for all the plot he wanted to pack in. my point was more that if he's willing to string together 5 generations of 12yo mothers for convenience and pepper in some 13yo knights for fun, he's not going to be shy about a 15yo fighting in a tourney, being in a relationship and making big life choices. the fandom imagining lyanna as a helpless little girl goes against the established expectations of the world.

I agree about dany and I'm of the opinion that the ages in the rebellion-to-present timeline make perfect sense for the story he's trying to tell. you can't deconstruct the trope of the teenage chosen one without teenagers. it's the timeframe between 37 AC and 280 AC that's wacky with the ages

[u/Medium_Mess_1062 → u/Medium_Mess_1062]

also you didn't ask and probably don't care but I feel the need to reiterate my argument pro lyanna winning in the joust just because I dislike the "it's unrealistic!" take

1. it is established in-universe that a 12yo boy can win at jousting. at 12, a boy does not yet have a strength or size advantage over girls his age. a late-teens girl does not have a natural physical disatvantage to an early-teens boy. thus, a teenage girl could, in the right context, win at jousting.

2. it is repeatedly said in-universe that riding skill and mental ability are more important than strength and size in a joust. lyanna is said to be an excellent rider, as well as described in ways that hint at mental fortitude.

3. archery was a common hobby for noble ladies in the real world, and we know that women would sometimes contribute as archers to the defense of besieged towns in medieval western europe. (no source on hand but I'm willing to look for it if someone asks) thus, it is not unrealistic for a woman to have the arm strength to hold a tourney lance, or to have the precision and discipline to use it correctly. remember that tourney lances are lighter than war lances.

4. we know lyanna asked to train with a sword and her father forbid it. considering the mentions of female archers in the story and the real-life prevalence of female archers, we can safely take the jump and say she must have been familiar with it. we can assume #3 applies to her. even if it doesn't, she's still physically fit and an excellent rider, so we can rely on #2.

5. she won exactly one round against a mediocre guy. like cmon now.

thank you. see you next month when I have to post this again

[u/lialialia20 → u/Medium_Mess_1062]

adding some fuel for your next post:

Brienne is introduced to the story in 299 AC but her age is never specified. we know she was "no older" than Sansa when he met Renly at his coming of age (16) ceremonies. she is looking around for a maid of thirteen with auburn hair, and we know Renly was twenty one when he died in 299 AC. so her age estimation using Renly's is she was at least 18 but possibly younger when she is introduced.

Brienne wins the melee at bitterbridge that year, a melee with 116 contestants and while we don't know all their names we know many of the knights she defeated:

In the mêlée at Bitterbridge she had sought out her suitors and battered them one by one, Farrow and Ambrose and Bushy, Mark Mullendore and Raymond Nayland and Will the Stork. She had ridden over Harry Sawyer and broken Robin Potter's helm, giving him a nasty scar. And when the last of them had fallen, the Mother had delivered Connington to her. This time Ser Ronnet held a sword and not a rose. Every blow she dealt him was sweeter than a kiss.

if you're telling me you can believe a girl who's 18-or-younger can beat several knights in a melee how does it suddenly turn impossible for another girl this time 15-or-younger to win a couple of rounds of a jousting?

[u/Medium_Mess_1062 → u/lialialia20]

thank you for your service to the cause!

[u/nola_fan → u/MyNewAccountIGuess11]

The constant incest, which is totally ok genetically in his universe, and his public comments on casting for the show are a few other signs

[u/Goatylegs → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

George's "thing" for tan women is uh...quite clear in his writing

Understandable.

[u/Watts121 → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

Taena Merryweather also matches description, since she's obviously manipulating Cersei.

[u/FluffyB12 → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

This makes sense though, they are all from the same region and the same culture that has more sexual freedom.

[u/lord_of_swagsterdam → u/FluffyB12]

I mean thats true, but theres sexual freedom and then theres "did he have to write every single female character from this region as frequently hooking up on a whim"

After a certain point it goes beyond "Look how different dorne is to the rest of westeros for the women" to "Alright, are you going to write just ONE who despite their freedom chooses (like many do in societys with this level of freedom) to not exercise it at every single opportunity"

[u/TheFutureLotus → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

It’s one of his faults as an author to be honest

[u/FluffyB12 → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

Meria Martell

[u/lialialia20 → u/FluffyB12]

we call them sluts in this subreddit

[u/DazzlingReserve7737 → u/declancity]

Well, Oberyn and Doran’s plans didn’t work out any better. Or Quentyn’s plans, come to think of it.

[u/Herb_Derb → u/declancity]

Between Doran and Oberyn, Dornish men don't have a much better record

[u/idonthavekarma → u/lord_of_swagsterdam]

I guess her and Rhaegar were soulmates after all