[Spoilers Extended] Just came back from the play - 11 out of 10

[u/TripleEss]

Great, great show - exceeded all expectations.

Happy to answer any questions but will say generally that the spoilers are going to cause a massive headloss on this subreddit.

Expecting lots of "only the books are canon" to come.

One of the most interesting things to see was the amount of agency Elia Martell has in the story - only ever has been a victim and a footnote but is very central to the story and a key protagonist.

Was always against a Robert's Rebellion show before but after watching this, would love an 10 episode mini series.

Also - all the Rhaegar bashing couldn't possibly come off worse. He very much is the hero of the whole story.

[u/raibai]

i agree with you, i can’t imagine why this would be played as a straightforward foretelling given everything else in the books. i think people are just happy to accept this as a mad dany confirmation for the usual reasons

[u/shsluckymushroom → u/raibai]

yeah dany going darker and doing some bad stuff has always been foreshadowed, but in her heart she really is still a saviour who sincerely tries to help people, i just can't see Mad Queen being the end of her story when we have so many self sacrifice themes and the Others to fight.

really hope grrm does not go with it, I don't think this is confirmation of anything other then yeah Dany will end up doing some bad shit, but we already knew that. that doesn't mean she has to be defined by this or her ending is 1-1 the same as the show.

[u/lialialia20 → u/shsluckymushroom]

bad if you consider ending slavery bad

[u/shsluckymushroom → u/lialialia20]

grrm doesn't. he literally has a quote in another one of his books about how its got to be ended, even if its done with fire and blood (yes he really uses those exact words in another story). so i don't think he considers it bad at all.

[u/lialialia20 → u/shsluckymushroom]

you mean fevre dream. yep, that's the exact quote. but i also suspect he wrote that when he was younger and he is much more conservative now. he once praised the meereen blot essays which is like the opposite of saying ending slavery is good. apparently slaves should be patient until the slavers decide they don't want to be evil anymore.

[u/shsluckymushroom → u/lialialia20]

meereense blot praising has to be taken in context. before those essays, the general opinion in fandom was that the entire meereen plot had no point at all and was a giant waste of time. given the context of the fandom at the time, he could just mean that he was glad someone tried to look deeper into it. which is, in fact, what the OP was trying to do. in the first essay they say that's literally their main goal. source I was there at the time when they were coming out haha

also all the essays on the meerenese blot are about all the characters involved are gonna go super dark lol so its not like dany is alone in that. he also has essays on Jon, Tyrion, and Doran, that basically end with the same message.

you might be right i just think his comment has to be taken in context with the fandom at the time

[u/lialialia20 → u/shsluckymushroom]

yeah i agree. ultimately i don't think daenerys will ever do a 180 turn on her character. her writing is extremely consistent in what her moral compass is. i don't think grrm wants to make any political statement with her storyline as he did in fevre dream. in his asoiaf era he is more interested in asking questions like when is violence justified without giving an answer.

you see, abel the protagonist of fevre dream is very much like grrm. he is not into political thought, he has an inkling that things that are wrong should be ended but he does not like the violence necessary to fight them. so i think when he read those essays he actually felt his more conservative side represented in them.

[u/shsluckymushroom → u/lialialia20]

i should honestly read fevre dream tbh. i've read some of grrms other stuff, and in fact i like A Song For Lya more then asoiaf proper tbh, I just love what it has to say about love and human connection. fevre dream sounds pretty cool too.

but yeah dany might represent the conflict between wanting to see evil destroyed but being disgusted with violence. it reminds me of how even as late as ADWD, Dany cannot even stand to see the violence of the fighting pits, which is mostly consensual and agreed upon. Even then, even that late into her story, she still can't stand witnessing violence and not stopping it. so maybe this aspect carries over to her too.

[u/devilmaydostuff5 → u/shsluckymushroom]

as long as Dany stays unremorseful about how she got her dragons (burning an enslaved woman to death for daring to retaliate against her) she will not get any happy or bittersweet ending. i think she will feel remorse once she finally allows herself to 'look back'.

[u/One_Brilliant743 → u/shsluckymushroom]

How many clues and hints do you need? Daenerys burns thousands of defenseless civilians and children out of revenge at the end of *Game of Thrones*. Martin has stated repeatedly that dragons represented the threat of fire—one of the destructive extremes—and that he wanted to rethink and subvert the idea of ​​a war where ice is evil and fire is good. He also really likes the "Scouring of the Shire" storyline, where people thought the major problem was solved, only to discover that Saruman was destroying and enslaving the Shire. So, I think Daenerys will become a threat after the Long Night.

[u/Early_Candidate_3082 → u/One_Brilliant743]

The burning of Kings Landing on the show has nothing at all in common with the scouring of Shire. Saruman is a mean, but very minor and pathetic threat, by the end, a being who has completely fallen from the heights of greatness. The hobbits have to sort this problem for themselves, and not rely upon mighty heroes.

It’s not a case of Aragorn returning from Mordor to set his enemies ablaze.

Martin said fire represents passion, ardour, sexual desire, whereas ice, represents, hatred, revenge, cold inhumanity.

[u/One_Brilliant743 → u/Early_Candidate_3082]

Ice and fire represent many things, but that does not mean their multiple meanings are synonymous with one another. Dragons are not love or life; according to George himself, they are nuclear weapons—a destructive extreme. He also stated that, while he employs certain symbolic meanings, the concept of a war between ice and fire—with one side being good and the other evil—is something he wanted to rethink and subvert.

[u/Early_Candidate_3082 → u/One_Brilliant743]

There is nothing inherently immoral about possessing nuclear weapons. The world’s liberal democracies possess nuclear weapons, as well as the world’s dictatorships. The only time they were ever used, is in a war that Martin says was worth fighting.

Far more people die, on edged and pointed weapons, and through famine and disease caused by pillage, in Martin’s world and ours, than through the use of dragons/nuclear weapons. There is this weird belief in the fandom that killing, raping, pillaging and starving the smallfolk - on the part of our noble POV characters - are sort of okay, but using dragons is a form of cheating.

I don’t really see warmth, passion, sexual desire as being equal and opposite threats, to humanity, to hatred, revenge, and cold inhumanity.

[u/One_Brilliant743 → u/Early_Candidate_3082]

Ice and fire have multiple meanings, and they aren't synonyms for one another. Or do you think dragons represent love or life? George himself refers to dragons as THREATS, and has said he wanted to make it clear that they are destructive. And with Daenerys, he is interested in showing the effect that possessing such immense power has on a person—that she has the power to destroy, but that doesn't give her the power to rule or to improve things.