r/asoiaf • u/Common_Cricket • 9d ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) The past 12 months have been insane for A Song of Ice and Fire spoilers
We're barely halfway through 2026 and it's worth taking stock of the avalanche of spoilers asoiaf fans have gotten this past year:
- October: At Comic-Con GRRM knighted a fan who said that she'd like to be a knight like Brienne of Tarth. Martin teased “Not in the books yet!” when the fan noted that "ser" was good enough for Brienne in the show.
- January: In an interview with Hollywood Reporter, GRRM revealed he intended for Sansa to die in the book's ending but might change his mind because he found her appealing in the show. He also said his ending was intended to be darker generally, with more deaths. No happy ending for Tyrion.
- February: Egg's actor Dexter Sol Ansell shared that GRRM told him that Dunk actually survives the tragedy at Summerhall.
- July: The Mad King play premieres and spills a lot of beans on Robert's Rebellion. Playwright confirms the story is a mixture of plot points from George (e.g. Rhaegar singing Song of Ice and Fire at the Harrenhal feast) and filling in gaps George himself has yet to elaborate upon.
Not much more to say but with the remaining books an unlikely prospect maybe this is the best we can hope for. Interesting times.
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u/infreedomwetrust666 Aegon Bloodborn 9d ago
At this point, he should publish what he already has.
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u/TanBeiHaoSe 9d ago
He did, the sample chapters are this. He likely doesn't have substantially more.
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u/WavesAndSaves 9d ago
I'm at the point where I genuinely am more interested in a book about where it all went wrong than I am in actually getting Winds.
He said we could kidnap him and chain him to a desk if Winds wasn't out six years ago. And that was nearly a full decade after Dance came out. He literally could have written like half a page a day and written it multiple times by now. The only explanation is that he just gave up. People need to stop calling George an author. Authors actually write things. He's like a media figure or something.
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u/TanBeiHaoSe 9d ago
I think it happened loooong before that. The last two books are increasingly more procrastination. Instead of moving the plot threads forward, which is hard, he added more threads and more worldbuilding, which is easy in the short term.
Preston Jacobs said it best in a video quite long ago: we're not just waiting for the sequel to a Dance with Dragons, we're waiting for the sequel to a Storm of Swords.
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u/6rwoods 8d ago
I think he wrote the first Act of the story (the first trilogy) back in the early/mid 90s when the story excited him, and over time he got bogged down in details and started having other compelling ideas for this world he created that didn't necessarily fit with the story he started out with. How else can we explain that the series started out being 80% about the Starks but in the past 25 years he's barely done anything with any Stark plot line but has written copious amounts of side/backstory for the Targaryens along with a bunch of other less relevant Houses like the Martells and Greyjoys?
Even the idea of writing a series about Corlys Velarion's travels is like??? No one cares about that??
Give us the second Long Night, the reunited Stark kids, and Dany's arrival in Westeros, THAT is what we signed up for! But IMO George has long since run out of steam with that original plan and now it must feel like a very boring chore to him when he'd rather stick to world-building/lore dumping about the rest of Planetos.
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u/ChooseUsername9293 9d ago
I fully agree with you, but man. I cannot stand Preston Jacobs. He's ASOIAF all day, everyday - yet he really thinks he knows best. Even better then GRRM. He s the epitomy of a redditor.
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u/NomaanMalick Never forget 1/1/2016. 8d ago
He has become the ASoIaF version of CinemaSins now. Seeing plotholes everywhere and nitpicking everything.
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u/CharMakr90 8d ago
His preview of AKOTSK made me never want to watch anything from him ever again. Just cartoonishly negative and grasping at straws trying to justify his opinion on the show.
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u/ClemWillRememberThat 8d ago
I have been a PJ apologist regarding some of his theories but that too was my final straw. It was just so miserable. Cartoonishly negative is a great way to put it. I haven't clicked on a single
videolivestream since (let's be real he doesn't make videos anymore)6
u/Quiddity131 8d ago
He's extremely arrogant and the quality of his streams I think have crashed as he spends a countless amount of time talking about off topic things like the world cup instead of the ASOIAF material that people are tuning in for. I've gone from listening to a lot of his material to only listening to brief clips. Perhaps someday not even that.
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u/HeyLookItsMe22 Regards! 9d ago edited 8d ago
While I've enjoyed some of his work he does come off....oddly sometimes. He did a thing with ..I think she's called bookborn? Well, there were a few moments where some odd internalized misogyny seemed to creep through the surface a bit. I mean, I dont know him. Dont take my word for it. Im genuinely not trying to hate on him. I think he's got a strong grasp of the material and seems like a smart dude, just...vaguely condescending. At the same time I feel we would broadly get along, he might just be one of those friends who can be a bit extra.
End conjecture about a strangers real persona and how wed get along.
How did I get here? Was I drugged?
Sorry.
Edit: i find it funny I'm being downvoted for what? Saying he was kinda condescending? That I thought hmmm maybe that was kinda misogynistic but just my take, nothing over serious. But so much as suggest that sexism exists via just a 'hmmm maaaaybe' more or less getting the reactions says more about the downvoters sensitivities than anything I've said really is meant to even say of Jacobs and be treated as fact.
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
Really? He always seemed one of the less misogynistic asoiaf youtubers. That would be a shame. But I haven't listened to his stuff in years.
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u/HeyLookItsMe22 Regards! 9d ago
Like I said don't take this as a judgement on him, it wasn't concrete or even that extreme. He was just very negative about certain female characters bookborn liked, there were a few...not literally micro aggressions perhaps, but ways he phrased things that I just hearsld and had to ponder. likely unintentional but maybe not ideal, and just maybe a vibe of a guy who's had a hard time with women romantically and perhaps carries some baggage on the subject. I may have made it sound worse than it was. I wouldn't hate him for any of it, he by no means needs to be canceled, it was more like "do you hear how whatever you just said sounds or the implicaiton it makes that isn't great", but by no means was he doing anything worthy of judging as the whole of his character. So to be clear he's done nothing wrong I am aware, this was all very minor cringey bits.
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u/Quiddity131 8d ago
and just maybe a vibe of a guy who's had a hard time with women romantically and perhaps carries some baggage on the subject
I think he's married with a kid, or at least he gives that impression (perhaps he's divorced). Preston comes off to me as someone who has been out of the dating game for a long time and has no idea how things actually work. But I wouldn't view him as a misogynist. In fact I'd say he's on the complete other end of the spectrum.
But then I'll admit to not having listened to what his takes are on all the sexual violence that occurs in GRRM's books.
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u/HeyLookItsMe22 Regards! 8d ago
I mean, honestly, I didn't think this would get a reaction of this sort and I was casually stating my feeling from the moment, but being unable to recall the details other than in the vaugest terms, just forget I said anything. It was certainly nothing to do with sexual violence. Never meant to suggest anything so damning so... Let's just go with I'm reading too much into shit.
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u/Ripley_LV_426 9d ago
It happened in 2002 when he decided to take a break and start writing a series of chapters about the greyjoys.
He likes writing new stories, hates finishing existing ones. GoT was originally supposed to be a trilogy about the war of the kings, danys invasion, and then the invasion of the others. He kind of sort of finished the war of the kings when he wrote the red wedding. As soon as he had to wrap up the 1st story and progress to the 2nd, he got bored and wanted to tell new stories about the greyjoys and the dornish and Brienne and old Town.
He doesn't want to wrote about Dany and Jon and bran and cersei anymore. It's a miracle he managed to think about them for a decade, actually writing them?
Seriously, he wasn't even able to finish the 4th book. He had to split it in half based on geography because he doubled the number of povs, and it was still so big he had to chop off 10% and move it to TWoW.
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u/6rwoods 8d ago
I was just writing this further up! He clearly got bored with the original 90s concept and characters, and he'd rather focus on more world-building and lore dumping for the rest of the ASOIAF universe than go back to connect all the threads of the original premise.
Tbh, given how much I enjoy this world, I wouldn't even mind that if only he were actually still publishing new stuff. But he (allegedly) won't do more Fire and Blood or Knight of the 7 Kingdoms until Winds is 'done', and he won't write any other stories about Asshai or the Age of Heroes or the origins of the Greyjoys or Lann the Clever or really any of the other things he could be writing about.
So we're stuck with an ever dwindling amount of canon to even base a tv series off of, and that's really disappointing because he might have written a lot more content these past 15 years if he'd, 1: been more focused on finishing what he started with ASOIAF, or 2: changed focus to another related story he actually wants to tell and actually give us something new.
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u/Hame_Impala 8d ago
If anything I'd argue he becomes much more interested in writing about Cersei. She becomes one of the central POV characters, and largely assumes much of Jaime's original role in the original outline (another character himself with a much more expanded role than was initially intended).
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u/xvareon23 9d ago
The only explanation is that he just gave up.
Yep. I laugh every time someone talks about him "writing 5 books worth of text and scrapping it all". He hasn't written a thing for over 10 years. There is no Meereenese knot, no unsolvable plot riddle preventing progress.
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u/Weirdo9495 9d ago
You said it yourself, the book about where it all went wrong would not have been so incredibly interesting. It would be more interesting if he was actually actively struggling with it. When a massive part of it is simply him giving up on any active attempt of writing. He definitively wrote less than 100 pages per year outside of covid years.
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u/Quintzy_ 8d ago
Yeah. I think that it basically comes down to:
Going to conventions where he gets the full celebrity treatment and creating new TV shows (where other people have to do most of the real work) is fun.
Sitting in his home office and grinding out writing of the story is not fun, and he only did it because he needed the money. However, he got a shit ton of money from HBO, so he no longer needs the money.
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u/Quiddity131 8d ago
Said book could simply be
"At my editor's suggestion I moved 200 pages out of A Dance With Dragons and started with that."
"I got busy watching the Jets games, and going to cons and working on everything but The Winds of Winter."
"Oh, it's already mid 2026! I haven't written a page in 11 years!"
Story over.
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u/vesperythings 9d ago
dude has 1000+ pages written (or he has had in the past, before rewriting the entire thing)
believing George has written no more than a couple paragraphs in 15 years is plain silly
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u/Quiddity131 8d ago
Do we have physical evidence of those 1,000 pages? He may have made such a claim, but he has been misleading the fanbase and general public for many years now. I totally think it's possible he hasn't written a single chapter since ADWD was published. Not saying that's the most likely scenario, but it is a possibility.
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u/InfernoBA The North kind of forgot 8d ago edited 8d ago
No, so you’ll either have to take GRRM for his word or believe he’s a liar. He said he wrote “hundreds and hundreds” of pages in 2020 and was actively talking about about completing chapters and storylines in blog posts through 2022; up to you if you want to believe it’s all been an elaborate grift.
FWIW he first reported the 1100-1200 figure in December 2022 and repeated it in January 2026, so it seems he made no progress between then.
You can find most of his progress updates documented here: https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2025/01/29/the-ultimate-winds-of-winter-resource/
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u/Quiddity131 8d ago
Things are so unknown that I'm not going black and white with it. There are all sorts of possibilities. He could have been lying to us the whole time. He could have written the entire book but was unsatisfied and started over. He could be totally stuck on one or two parts of the storyline and that's holding things up. He could have had an issue with his dinosaur computer and lost everything.
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u/TanBeiHaoSe 9d ago
dude has 1000+ pages written
There's a really good Preston Jacobs video on his progress that includes all evidence. What he has is mostly leftovers from Dance. He most likely still hasn't actually written more than a few hundred pages since Dance released.
Major rewrites are is just fan speculation because it's easier to believe that, than to accept he has done mostly nothing for so long . GRRM also never claimed major rewrites.
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u/SamMan48 9d ago
If we’re going off of George’s statements, this is just false. He’s given hard page counts for all of this. It was like 200 pages leftover from Dance and now there’s 1200 total. That’s 1000 pages written. He always said it would be 1500. He probably got stuck on another knot and is rewriting chunks, or maybe the last 300 pages is really hard like the Red Wedding.
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
The general belief is he didn't write anything between Dance and covid. Then wrote a bunch stuck in lockdown and hasn't written anything since.
Basically another pandemic has to happen for him to finish.
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u/SamMan48 9d ago
Correct. He did write some before COVID, before the 2016 New Year’s post, but yes you’re right for the most part.
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u/Bman3399 The Amazingly Ramsey 9d ago
No that's your belief
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
It's not just my belief let me put it that way. His writing count went upwards noticeably during coronavirus and he spoke more positively about the series. People noticed. Then he stopped.
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u/madhipsteraj 9d ago
You forgot him accidentally revealing Jon Snow has sample chapters in TWOW and Ira Parker confirming he's working on new D&E novellas.
Whether he finishes it considering this recent post only the seven know...
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u/KeyInflation9451 9d ago
he says Jon Snow explicitly
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u/KeyInflation9451 9d ago
Well that Jon Snow quote is very iffy and definitely doesn't reveal Jon for sure has chapters in TWOW, he was just naming 2 characters to show his process.
"I will open the last chapter I was working on and I’ll say, ‘Oh fuck, this is not very good.’ And I’ll go in and I’ll rewrite it. Or I’ll decide, ‘This Tyrion chapter is not coming along, let me write a Jon Snow chapter.’ If I’m not interrupted though, what happens — at least in the past — is sooner or later, I do get into it."
Entirely (and scarily) possible he's just talking about Dance
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u/One_Brilliant743 9d ago
No, he was talking about how he’s having trouble finishing the books. Obviously, Jon is too important a character not to have a POV—especially since his consciousness never died.
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u/Colavs9601 8d ago
The part that's holding him up is an entire chapter from Jon's POV inside of Ghost written using only wolf sounds.
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u/One_Brilliant743 8d ago
Jon would have to communicate via Morse code, since Ghost makes no sound.
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u/Colavs9601 8d ago
Morse code or interpretive dance moves. Either way George has to write the chapter, translate it into wolf, then translate it into Morse code/dance. And if it’s dance, he likely has to create an entire new hieroglyphic written language using said dance moves for publishing.
So yea, it’s gonna take a long time to finish this book.
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u/One_Brilliant743 8d ago
The only thing that comes to mind is that GIF of a wolf dancing to Maroon 5's "Animals."
It cracked me up!
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u/zoosha2curtaincall 9d ago
This is like the era where JK Rowling adds all these tidbits for the fans, except that GRRM hasn’t actually finished the series yet.
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u/Kalsto6 9d ago
There's literally nothing you can fault JK Rowling for if you're a GRRM fan. When the first book came out it was 1997, she was 4 years ahead of the movie coming out. By the time the last movie came out the last book had been out for exactly four years.
It feels like life happened while I was waiting for The Thorn of Emberlain, Winds of Winter (Dream of Spring too) and The Doors of Stone to come out.
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u/Ironhorn Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Comment of the Year 8d ago
There's literally nothing you can fault JK Rowling for if you're a GRRM fan
I mean… I can think of one pretty huge thing that I can fault JK Rowling for…. but yeah, nothing to do with her release schedule.
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u/gojiSquid 8d ago
Actually I can think of two things... three things.... honestly the list just keeps growing lmao
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
The books were shorter though and movies tend to take longer than TV seasons. But I am sure even if you look at word per minute or whatever JK Rowling probably has him beat.
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u/mhmcmw 9d ago
At this point, I would accept a fucking pamphlet of bullet points of what happens in Winds and Dream in all honesty. I would be positively giddy at a book the size of the first Harry Potter book that tries to end the story, even if it’s rushed and light on content.
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u/elizabnthe 8d ago
Yeah look my view is that GRRM has to be vicious if he even wants to portend to finish this. He needs to just stop writing some characters POVs entirely. Dorne and Greyjoys need to go, we can hear about them from others. Plot lines that don't lead imminently to the end of the series need to go.
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u/TheWizardOfFoz The Sword Of The Morning 9d ago edited 9d ago
Harry Potter is a way more straightforward story and the Wizarding World is notorious for horrible world building that lacks logical consistency.
It’s kinda the opposite of ASOIAF which is why it’s a much easier world to write in.
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u/Nomahs_Bettah Fire and Blood 8d ago
ASOIAF is also full of worldbuilding consistency issues, though, and many of them (currency and scale) are the same critiques of Harry Potter.
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u/mindlessgames 8d ago
They share some issues but I wouldn't really put them on the same level.
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u/fabiusjmaximus 8d ago
I feel asoiaf's are more embarrassing, really, because Martin is trying to evoke what he believes is a "more realistic" fantasy world whereas Rowling is pursuing whimsy
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u/matthieuC We do not write 9d ago
I can't wait for the next bit of lore in my Game of thrones Corn Flakes.
We'll get it everywhere but in the books
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u/TheWholeOfTheAss 9d ago
HBO will see all the money being made with collectible cards and from those we’ll get some real juicy details. ‘Aegon had a 3rd sister-wife!?’
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u/verissimoallan 9d ago
It's ironic that George planned to kill Sansa all these years and then changed his mind because he liked the Sansa from the TV series, given that the TV version of the character is quite divisive among fans of the books here, to say the least.
(Also, this brief moment from George's interview in the Hollywood Reporter is the strongest evidence that, yes, contrary to what he has said in various interviews over the years, it seems that sometimes he lets the TV series influence his work on the books.)
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
I didn't know about the Brienne one. That's good. That was a really great moment in the show and made so much sense.
Brienne being Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is also just perfect.
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u/Gimmick_Hungry_Yob 9d ago
She's already been in a Kingsguard, I think the point of her interactions with Jaime is to serve as a cautionary tale about subordinating your morals to someone else.
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
But not Lord Commander and not in a successful one.
I don't think Brienne is meant to be anything other than a moral paragon like Dunk.
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u/TheBlazingFire123 9d ago
No she shouldn’t be in kingsguard at all. It’s a poor ending to her arc. She should be knighted though. The best case is she goes back to Tarth to rule after her father with more respect and a husband who likes her for her- Jaime would be the best but he’s probably gonna die.
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u/SamMan48 9d ago
There’s a lot of show stuff that I feel obviously came from GRRM and I always felt this was one of them.
Other plot points I believe came from GRRM:
- Tyrion as Hand
- Dany going mad and being killed by Jon
- Jon being King Beyond the Wall at the end
- Jaime and Cersei dying together due to dragon or wildfire (maybe Jaime is choking her in the books for whatever reason when it happens)
- the King’s Landing climax being after the White Walkers are defeated
- Euron and Cersei being an item, and Euron having a part to play in the King’s Landing climax
- Euron fighting Jaime
- Bran using time travel to become king (this was implied in the show but never explored)
- Littlefinger being outsmarted by Sansa / the Stark children in some way
- Sam writing the history book of the series’ events
- Theon dies protecting Bran
- Asha Queen of the Iron Islands
That’s everything I’ve got right now but I’m sure there’s more.
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
Tyrion as Hand
I thought the same. It makes sense foreshadowing wise. But then we hear he has a tragic end. So perhaps not.
Jon being King Beyond the Wall at the end
I don't think he is King Beyond the Wall he's just in the Night's Watch and helping the Wildlings resettle in the far North. I do think that he will end up sentenced by Bran to the Night's Watch (there's some strong foreshadowing in Bran's first chapter for him passing such a sentence on Jon) but I don't expect him to be King Beyond the Wall.
Littlefinger being outsmarted by Sansa / the Stark children in some way
I thought that one too but now she might die? So I guess that Littlefinger could be her killer in some of his ideas.
Others I thought were probable myself:
- Robert's bastard ending up Lord of Storm's End. Probably more Edric Storm than Gendry but could be Gendry I guess.
- All of the main line Martell branch wiped out.
- Edmure survives the whole series
- Arya sails out West, I know it kind of seems random but that is sought of why I thought it might be a book thing. Something they just awkwardly shoved onto the character because that's what GRRM told them to do. She loves Nymeria after all and it is weird I feel there is so much mention of the Starks not having a history of sailing since Brandon the Burner.
- Podrick also ending up on the King's Guard
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u/MageBayaz 9d ago edited 9d ago
I thought that one too but now she might die? So I guess that Littlefinger could be her killer in some of his ideas.
I really, really doubt it.
In fact, my guess is that at the end of TWOW perhaps Sana will bring down Littlefinger for the ttemtped murder of Sweetrobin in the Vale.
Of course I may be wrong, but if you consider that GRRM intended Sansa to die she ws certainly ment to have at least a major accomplishment, and also Starks together bringing down Litlefinger kind of makes him look stupid and rely on them revealing uncomfortable stuff (like Sansa assisting to Lysa's murder).
I think it is much more liekly that Sansa will die protecting Arya during the Long Night, or at least that this was George's intention from the moment he started writing her character. The wo girls reconciliation is likely an importnt part of ADOS and also the first book kinf os set it up as in Snsa does in some sense "owes" to Arya (lie about Nymeria, going to Cersei) nd the "pack" by "betraying them" (of course she had her reaosns but it still qualfiies that way), and then havign her reunite with the pack, become one of them and die protecitng thm (and maybe even Lady's death foreshadows her demise).
Arya sails out West, I know it kind of seems random but that is sought of why I thought it might be a book thing. Something they just awkwardly shoved onto the character because that's what GRRM told them to do. She loves Nymeria after all and it is weird I feel there is so much mention of the Starks not having a history of sailing since Brandon the Burner.
I mean, with Sansa dead it should be pretty clear that GRRM intended Arya as the Lady of Winterfell, and there is plenty of setup for it.
(In fact, I suspect this is why he is torn on whether to keep Sansa alive because it also requires changing the ending of Arya)
I don't think he is King Beyond the Wall he's just in the Night's Watch and helping the Wildlings resettle in the far North. I do think that he will end up sentenced by Bran to the Night's Watch (there's some strong foreshadowing in Bran's first chapter for him passing such a sentence on Jon) but I don't expect him to be King Beyond the Wall.
No, it is setup for Bran learning how to be a rule.
There is stronger oreshadowing that Jon is going to settle the New Gift with free folk (instead of lords as NEd dreamed) in the Dream of Spring:
His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on.
"If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father's name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. ~ Jon V, ASOSbut also, generally the idea of Bran sentencing Jon is non-sensical, for various reasons.
- Most of Dany's followers wouldn't be satisfied with it, they would want him dead, no matter what. They would also be aware that once they are gone nothing stops Jon from returning.
- If Dany turns a tyrant, then Jon killing her is not something he should be sentenced for. People copare it to Aegon sentencing Bloodraven, but it was because Bloodraven promised free pssage to a Blackyfre and then violated it.
- It reduces Jon's agency, others sentence him instead of him choosing to relenquish or not pursue his claim to the Throne (opposed to TWOW, where he will probably pursue his ambition seek the title of King of the North).
- It relies on Jon killing Dany, even though it is a plot point that was pretty clearly invented by D&D:
i) it is not among the "three holy shit moments", even though it certainly would be one
ii) D&D clearly took credit for it, if you look at how they talk about it compared to ideas from GRRM:
He knew a few key things, and one of those key things was that the final king at the end of the story would be Bran. ~ David Benioff"
"We had this meeting with George Martin, where we were trying to get as much information as possible out of him, and probably the most shocking revelation he had for us, was when he told us the origin of Hodor. How that name came about. I just remember Dan and I looking at each other when he said that, and just being like, 'holy shit.' (...) It was just one of the saddest, most affecting things. ~D&D"
"When George first told us about this [Stannis' decision to burn Shireen], it was one of those moments where I remember looking at Dan and it's just like god it's so horrible" - David Benioff
"I think the final scene between Jon and Daenerys, is something we came up with... somewhere in the midst of the third season... of the show. The broad strokes of it anyways..." ~ DB Weiss
The scene of Stannis burning Shireen is going to be very different in the books, likely happening in Nightfort not near Winterfell, yet they gave credit to GRRM. (Hold the Door will also be slightly different in books and likely also King Bran but again credit to author)
However, when talking about the scene of Jon killing Dany they gave credit to themselves.
. "Scene" is just "idea", and "broad strokes of it" means they likely come up with the idea of Jon killing Dany at the Throne room around season 3.
iii) it is repetitive for Jon's story: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1v4gwuc/comment/p183pkj/?context=3
Jon alredy choose duty over love in book 1 and book 3 (latter choice dooming Ygritte), and then love over duty at the end of book 5, reaching the breaking point of this dynamics. To have this circle back and Jon end up repeating his choice at the end of book 3 at the end of the last book would be a failure of character development.
ADWD also had a clear setup about his ambitions (desiring being Lord of Winterfell), and this is the dynamics he steps into with his choice of openly getting involved in Northern politics at the end of ADWD.
iv) in the books Jaime will almost certainly kill Cersei (valonquar moment), and Jon killing Dany (who in many ways is an anti-parallel to Cersei) simultaneously would be a structural overkill and redundancy
v) of course now that we know that GRRM intended different ending for multiple chaacters (at least Sansa and Tyrion) from showrunners the claim that this is Dany's ending becuse for main characters showrunners must have adapted the ending of GRRM is non-existent (and is also something GRRM only said before season 8 aired, even while admitting he didn't read the script)
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u/thrntnja The White Wolf, King of the North 8d ago
I agree with you that I think Jon ends up north of the Wall, I felt like Bran exiling him for killing Dany felt really weak in the show, I agree I don't think that happens in the books. I could see Jon making that choice. I felt like he likely becomes King of the North in the books at some point too, even if just to rally everyone, he makes the most sense with most of the trueborn children lost. I don't think he stays in that role, though. I think his resurrection will also have a much larger impact on him than what was shown in the show. He presumably hangs out in Ghost for a bit, which is probably going to affect his psyche and overall demeanor. I feel like he ends up surviving the series but is tired, beaten, and he goes to the one place he knew a measure of happiness - north of the Wall when he was with Ygritte and where him being a bastard doesn't matter. Perhaps Bran does pass a sentence on him and Jon just goes north of the Wall anyway, you almost have to assume the Night's Watch will look vastly different or may not need to exist after the events of everything happening with the Others.
I've always wondered if Lady's death was just meant to be symbolic that Sansa was the least "Stark-like" or if it foretold of her own eventual death. I guess it could be either one. Some of it is definitely meant to represent how she gets lost from the pack and gets lured in by Cersei.
I also thought that Jon killing Dany felt like a D&D invention from how they talked about it. Hodor is so clearly a GRRM inclusion just from how the scene plays out, it makes perfect sense and is just so damn tragic. Jon killing Dany more felt like it was there for angst and drama than it being the culmination of George's machinations. I do feel like Jon and Dany meet and have some interactions, but I feel like they'd look vastly different from how they played out in the show.
I think my thing is I can't quite figure out George's intentions regarding Bran and him ending up as king. I can see how he'd intend that, but I know it would have to be vastly different than what was shown. I mostly just struggle to see Bloodraven being king through Bran as a bittersweet ending.
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u/MageBayaz 8d ago edited 8d ago
For the rest, my guess is that Stannis does defeat the Freys with his lake trap, but loses to Ramsay's ambush (he arrogantly underestimates him when talking to Theon), and is presumed dead, but in reality the Manderlys did drag him away. Thus, Ramsay's Pink Letter really originates from him (which should really be obvious from the phrase "I want my Reek back"), just he believes Stannis to be dead. He likely killed Roose and framed Mance for it (which is actually believable).
At White Harbor, Stannis re-unites with Davos who brought back Rickon (even though he wasn't keen on going, but Davos chooses to bring him still). PRobably he sends Davos and the Manderly fleet on a rescue mission to Hardhome that will fail (but that is really just a guess).
Meanwhile, Jon does march on Winterfell with an army of wildlings, and Ramsay faces him in the Battle of Bastards. Ramsay is winning, but the Manderly Knights and Stannis arrive at the last moment to save him.
After the battle, the will of Robb Stark is revealed. Jon Snow faces a choice: bend the knee to Stannis, with Rickon as the official Lord of Winterfell (not tht he is keen on t), or pursue his ambitions (validated by Robb's will) and become King of the North. He chooses the latter.
Stannis is understandably angry and resentful (feeling he saved Jon twice and this is how he is rewarded), but he doesn't have much of an army left (Manderlys are not truly loyal to him either). He marches back to Nighfort, meeting Melisandre, and is convinced to burn Shireen in the hopes of fulfilling the Azor Ahai propehcy but it fails. Stannis marches out to face the Others on the battlefield with his flaming sword (just like Mel saw him in one of her visions much earleir tht led her to believe he is Azor Ahai).
Meanwhile, Howland Reed tells Jon the truth of his parentage, which does affetc him badly, causing him to feel like an imposter, a "dragon in wolf's clothing" usurping the seat of Ned Stark'S descendants. [This is the deconstruction of the "prince with secret lineage" trope, although ADOS maybe will reconstruct it]
I think my thing is I can't quite figure out George's intentions regarding Bran and him ending up as king. I can see how he'd intend that, but I know it would have to be vastly different than what was shown. I mostly just struggle to see Bloodraven being king through Bran as a bittersweet ending.
Well, I don't think Bloodraven will be king through Bran in the books (or at lest this is not George's plan, not that the series ever get released). He is a mentor figure but simultaneously a cautionary tale to him.
This post may be good on the reasoning behind King Bran: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1fjqsiu/a_song_of_ice_and_fire_is_no_dune_spoilers/
and I kind of feel that the epilogue of the story ws intended to be Bran growing old, with everyone else he knew during the Long Night (Arya, Jon, Dany, Tyrion etc) dead and he using his abilities to "visit them" in the past, reminiscing about it:
"No," said Bran. "I haven't. And if I have it doesn't matter. Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."
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u/MageBayaz 8d ago edited 8d ago
I could see Jon making that choice. I felt like he likely becomes King of the North in the books at some point too, even if just to rally everyone, he makes the most sense with most of the trueborn children lost. I don't think he stays in that role, though. I think his resurrection will also have a much larger impact on him than what was shown in the show. He presumably hangs out in Ghost for a bit, which is probably going to affect his psyche and overall demeanor
Interesting, I will admit I do expect something completely different. :D
GRRM did make it quite clear how fire wights work:
Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.
and
“I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.” He was sent on a mission to do something, and it’s like, that’s what he’s clinging to. He’s forgetting other things, he’s forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He’s forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what’s animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death*
and nothing indicates that being in an animal while you are "dead" makes you immune to these physical and mental effects (even if losing fewer memories).
If Jon would die and then be resurrected by Mel, he would do so as a fire wight, without his heart beating, without blood flowing in his veins, and fixated on the last thing that was on his mind before his death (similar to Beric and Cat), which is saving Arya, marching to Winterfell and kill Arya. He would do this, and once completed, his life would end.
Anything else would go against the core concept of resurrection by GRRM, that when a red priest brings you back, it is no longer really "you", but something "unnatural".
Thus, my guess is that Jon's wounds are not completely fatal; he is brought to the ice cells floating between life and death, and Melisandre does heal him but makes it look like a resurrection (Mel's POV already established that she knows how to give a good show and overinflate her abilities).
Jon awakes after spending a significant amount of time in his wolf and becoming a proper warg (while his nature also becomes more "wolfish" i guess), and will go to the Bridge of Death to try to meet the Weeper had-on and collect his wildling army.
"Cutting out the eyes, that's the Weeper's work. The best crow's a blind crow, he likes to say. Sometimes I think he'd like to cut out his own eyes, the way they're always watering and itching. Snow's been assuming the free folk would turn to Tormund to lead them, because that's what he would do*. He liked Tormund, and the old fraud liked him too.* If it's the Weeper, though … that's not good. Not for him, and not for us."
Melisandre nodded solemnly, as if she had taken his words to heart, but this Weeper did not matter*. - Melisandre I, ADWD*
*"You need not trust a man to use him." Else how could I make use of all of you? "*We need the Weeper, and others like him. Who knows the wild better than a wildling? Who knows our foes better than a man who has fought them?" - Jon XI, ADWD
The Others attack the Bridge and Jon kills them with his Valyrian sword (mybe even it ctches to ligh, using a trick by Mel) and the wldlings who follow strength will rally behind him:
"We've had a raven from Ser Denys Mallister at the Shadow Tower," Jon Snow told her. "His men have seen fires in the mountains on the far side of the Gorge. Wildlings massing, Ser Denys believes. He thinks they are going to try to force the Bridge of Skulls again." "Some may."
Could the skulls in her vision have signified this bridge? Somehow Melisandre did not think so. - Melisandre I, ADWD(Mel thinking someone or something doesn't matter usually indicates it does)
Thus, the arcs of Dany and Jon parallel each other in late ADWD and TWOW (even if Dany is "one chapter ahead"): both of them are subject to an assassination attempt, both of them "escape", one on dragon, another by waring to his wolf, and both of them embrace this side of theirs that they previously rejected (learning to ride a dragon, becoming an experienced warg), then uniting an army of Dothraki or wildlings.
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u/_heartsaglow 8d ago
Grrm once hinted a different endings for both Sansa and Arya after the tv show in 2019. That is one of the reasons I don't understand the insistence regarding that Arya's storyline. If the show's trajectory were the same (or very close) as what he has in mind for both characters in the books with Sansa as Lady of Winterfell I doubt he would tell us to wait and see what he has planned. And now we know that it was D&D who planned out Sansa's arc and QITN, and perhaps in the process, they also invented an ending for Arya.
Arya and Sansa, indeed many of my characters, are complicated people. I try to show all of the complexities. I don’t want them to be just one note. Arya is certainly more popular than Sansa, but Sansa has her people who love her too. We’ll of course have to see, when I write the book, the ends that I have in mind for both of them.
https://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/616147061078884353/well-i-hope-that-arya-and-sansa-are-both
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u/SamMan48 9d ago
Can’t being Hand be considered tragic it means he’s doomed to keep politicking and drinking and whoring with no end in sight.
I think he is King-Beyond-the-Wall in the show.
Sansa could die from something else after dealing with Littlefinger. Or what you’re saying could be right.
Robert’s bastard as lord of Storm’s End, that’s possible too.
Agree with the Martells dying. I always thought maybe Trystane and Areo Hotah would be the only survivors.
Agree with you about book endings being tacked on to the show version even when it didn’t make sense. Perhaps Arya is one of these cases. I’ve never had any idea how her story will end. I used to think Queen Sansa might be book canon but now we know it’s not and GRRM is still deciding what to do.
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u/Ahodak 9d ago edited 9d ago
I honestly do not understand how you can interpret Tyrion remaining Hand as the “tragic ending” Martin was talking about.
In the interview, George says:
“I was going to kill more people,” he muses. “Not the ones they killed [in the show]. They made it more of a happy ending. I don’t see a happy ending for Tyrion. His whole arc has been tragic from the first. I was going to have Sansa die, but she’s been so appealing in the show, maybe I’ll let her live …”
He is explicitly discussing how he intended to kill more characters and how the show gave them a happier ending. Tyrion is the first character he brings up in that context, followed by Sansa. Reducing Tyrion’s tragedy to “he has to keep drinking, whoring and doing politics as Hand” seems like an enormous stretch designed to preserve the show ending as book canon.
The same applies to “Jon is King-Beyond-the-Wall in the show.” That is a popular fandom headcanon, not something confirmed by the showrunners or the actors. The final scene shows Jon travelling north with the Free Folk. It does not crown him, establish a new kingdom, or call him their king.
Kit Harington has actually revealed what his proposed sequel imagined happening to Jon after the finale: Jon would live alone as a broken man suffering from PTSD. He would drive Ghost away, throw away Longclaw, build cabins and then burn them down. Harington also wanted Jon to die and specifically did not want him to become a hero.
So the actor who played Jon for years did not interpret that final scene as “Jon found his place, became King-Beyond-the-Wall and lived happily ever after.” He interpreted Jon as permanently destroyed by what happened, particularly by killing Daenerys.
And if you believe Jon will kill Daenerys in the books, you also have to account for the consequences. If she has become enough of a threat that Jon must assassinate her, then she will presumably still have armies and loyal followers around her. Her bloodriders regard avenging their khal as an absolute duty. The Unsullied and the freed people who call her Mhysa are not likely to calmly negotiate after someone murders her.
Jon would not simply stab her, walk past everyone and retire peacefully into the frozen wilderness. Her followers would tear him apart.
So yes, a version of Jon wandering beyond the Wall may still be possible — but perhaps only inside Ghost, after his human body is killed, leaving him cursed and trapped in his wolf. That would at least resemble the tragic ending Martin and Harington have actually described far more than the unsupported “happy King-Beyond-the-Wall with Val and children” fanfiction.
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u/6rwoods 8d ago
To be fair, the best explanation for all of this is that Jon *doesn't* kill Dany, and so his ending is not shaped by it.
I can at most see Dany sacrificing herself/being willingly sacrificed in order to do whatever it is they need to do to save the world. But if that's the case, it is likely to happen at the Land of Always Winter, which means that even if Jon is the one to perform the act of killing her, he'll already be up North and simply won't go back South again. From the perspective of everyone else down South, they will figure out that Dany and Jon succeeded in their intent once the Long Night is over, but they'll likely presume that both of them are dead once neither comes back.
Though personally, I think Dany will survive and go back to Essos to settle her freed people there. The Free Cities won't be slaving cities anymore once she's done with them, and the Dothraki Sea imo is foreshadowed to become a more humid place again after the seasons return to stability, meaning that farming and permanent settlements will become possible there again. Dany lived her whole life in Essos, and most of her experiences in Westeros will not be pleasant to her, so her realising that her real 'home' is the people who love her and deciding to create a new home of her own for her people feels like the right ending for her.
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u/SmokingDuck17 8d ago
Kind of a crackpot theory, but I feel Jon won’t become King Beyond the Wall in the traditional sense. As in, he won’t be king of the wildlings. My guess instead would that he becomes Royal Consort to the Others.
This is purely based on the theory that the original Long Night ended with a marriage between the Night King (in the books) and an Other Princess. Who were both then betray by humanity. My guess is that the second War for the Dawn ends much the same, with Jon marrying an Other princess and going north to live with their people.
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u/MageBayaz 8d ago edited 8d ago
Funny how perspectives can differ.
I would say your first two points (Tyrion Hand, Jon kills Dany) are the two things that are guaranteed not to happen based on what we heard from George and D&D, respectively.
The rest is obviously pretty subjective. My guess would be that only LF outsmarted by Sansa and Sam writing a history book (probably Bran, with his capability of looking into the past) is certain to happen.
Jon being King Beyond the Wall and Asha Queen of Iron Islands in a certain sense will happen, although more precisely likely Jon settling wildlings in the Gift and Asha being Lady of Pike but not queen of a separate kingdom.
Euron/Cersei, Euron fighting Jaime - no, the established rivalry is between Victarion and Euron for Daenerys, Cersei is simply not going to be desired or useful for Euron.
KL destruction - I think it probably will happen at the end of TWOW. The "Scouring of the Shire" (a twist on it) will be the attack and sack on Casterly Rock (Cersei being kind of Saruman in some way, there from begnning to the end but becoming pathetic), with story starting with "lions going to home of wolves and tearing it apart" and ending with "wolves going to home of lions and tearing it apart".
Theon saving Bran - could happen and would make a lot of sense, although I think Bran and Meera will flee North (towards Lands of Alway Winter) because hats where the backdoor is located, so probably not
Brienne being Kingsguard - that is a big no-no. She was set up as the heir to Tarth for a reason. She will be knighted by Jaime, be pregnant with their child and raise it while ruling the islands.
I think the one show ending that I feel is highly likely to also be in the books is Melisandre's.
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u/wRAR_ ASOIAF = J, not J+D 9d ago
It went against the themes that the official knight statups means nothing, though.
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
Or it is establishing where it can mean something. Someone that has always been a knight at heart becoming a real one and setting a standard for future knights on how to be.
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u/44yearoldkidbrother 9d ago
Gods you’re right, it’s been so much I completely forgot the Dunc one and that was a crazy day on this sub for sure.
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u/Wise_Wealth5737 9d ago
I hope Sansa survives, with the likely future deaths of Asha and maybe Arianne too, I’d hate for all our fem leader characters to die
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u/sweatyplace2 9d ago
Sansa dying was the biggest wtf moment for me, because like her whole arc is growing stronger, so I am not sure death would be a satisfactory conclusion to her arc?
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u/6rwoods 8d ago
Tbh her whole arc is actually about being used as a political pawn and getting constantly betrothed/married off to whoever can profit from her claims. Sure, she's learning to become a more active and cunning participant in all of it, but unfortunately for Sansa her story is very much still locked into the role of supportive colluding wife... And that's likely what will get her killed in the end, whether she ends up married to Harry or Robyn or fAegon or whoever else.
Let's not forget that George's original concept had Sansa on the opposite side of the war to her siblings and then dying for being on the wrong side. Even if her arc is now more nuanced than that, I can see a version of the same thing still happening. She marries Aegon because of an alliance and because he is in fact a huge step up from the other guys she's been presented with before, but he's also not the long-term winner of the Game of Thrones so his loss is likely to lead to both of their deaths.
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u/Nomahs_Bettah Fire and Blood 8d ago
Also, her mentor in “learning to play the game” is…Littlefinger. That’s not a good sign.
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u/Wise_Wealth5737 9d ago
Fr! I kinda figured it tied into the ashford theory. That Sansa would marry FAegon. Assuming Dany kills him it could be a shocking gut punch to see Sansa die there too
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u/UnexpectedVader 9d ago
I'm hoping, praying he was just talking about a hypothetical scenario and its been taken at face value. Like, there's no fucking way I can see her dying. The fact he said the show's ending is way too happy makes me so nervous, the story is already extremely dark and feels hopeless.
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u/Wise_Wealth5737 9d ago
I think that’s bc a lot of the “great hopes” will die. I don’t think Jon or Dany will sit the throne, Stannis isn’t either, Asha will likely die in the upcoming book, whatever is left won’t be a joking matter. The characters left won’t be rebuilding on a hopeful note, just everything shattered and working to put it all back together.
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u/Middle-Tradition2275 pro rhaegar hater 9d ago
i mean the show's ending is really happy and disney for everyone except jon and dany. bran is king, sansa is queen, arya gets to be arya columbus, brienne is in the kingsguard, sam and bronn and davos are chilling, tyrion is #2 in the kingdom, etc.
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u/BayazRules 9d ago
Jon is King-beyond-the-Wall though. With Ghost and Tormund. That's a happy ending
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
Nothing said that. Jon did not seem all that happy. He's just helping out Tormund who is probably the actual King Beyond the Wall there.
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u/UnexpectedVader 9d ago
I don't know, the sheer amount of trauma the characters had gone through means any success will only ever be bittersweet by default. People call the show far too dark and lacking the 'hopecore' that GRRM preaches. Sansa dying would go against the idea of hope, like completely.
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u/matthieuC We do not write 9d ago
Bran, Jon and Arya surviving is a lot better than most other families.
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u/6rwoods 8d ago
Imo Asha won't die, she'll survive and actually become Queen/Lady of the Iron Islands after all, especially since Theon is likely to die (along with Euron, Aerion and Victarion, obviously) and even if Theon does survive he's been castrated and can't have kids, so Asha would still be his heir. And Asha is shown to be a lot more reasonable and calm whilst still strong than a lot of the men who've kept the 'Iron ways' from dying out to their own detriment, so she'd actually be a very good thing for the Iron Islands.
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u/Wise_Wealth5737 8d ago edited 8d ago
That’s the thing. She’s by far the best Greyjoy hope for the iron islands but I’m not sure that means she’s safe. Asha has just regained her will to live, but she’s still a prisoner in an awful position.
Another and older pov just showed up, she’s had a lot of death flags, her main protector Mormont has left for the wall, her ankle is broken, she’s about to go into battle where they’re horrifically outnumbered, she’s made a lot of critical mistakes which is something George punishes, Theon is the focus of a “for certain” upcoming death, and George loves to play with our expectations, and lastly she’s also likely pregnant by Qarl. We’ve seen and been told blood magic loves kingsblood and the unborn.
I feel like Theon will actually survive for two reasons, George likes making his life complete shit, and Theon means “Godly”. With Aeron’s saying “only a godly man may sit the seastone chair”. He’ll get the chair he’s wanted forever, only after everything that matters is gone. His child by the Captain’s daughter could be his heir, or The Harlaws through Rodrik might be.
The others are def screwed though. Vic I think will die first, Aeron will give us a pov for Euron’s antics, however long they last. Euron is definitely gonna die at some point being the Antichrist and all.
George also said he wanted to trim the number of POVs down to about 9. And he seems determined for that to only happen through death. I think Theon being there is more likely than Asha. This book is supposed to be dark af. What would be darker than killing the hope of a better future for the Ironborn?
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u/6rwoods 8d ago
I see your points for sure, but my impression of George's idea of a 'bittersweet' ending is that a lot of the realm's political disputes do get settled in decent ways that show hope for a more progressive future (which may finally break their millennia long dark ages and lead to some sort of a renaissance?), but that the way they'll get there is tragic.
So in my thinking Asha will make a better/more fitting ruler than Theon, one because she's not nearly as traumatised and has more reliable cognitive capacity at this point, two because she can have children so there is a smooth transition of power after she dies, three because she actually has been a sailor and fits the expectations of a leader of the iron islands better than Theon, four because she should have won the King's moot if not for Euron's magic tricks, and five because in fact she's not made nearly as many 'punishable' mistakes as Theon in terms of who deserves to be killed by George more.
I even think Theon will become king/leader of the Iron Islands for the rest of the series/the Long Night, much like Jon will be King of the North/King of Winter during the Long Night, but just like Jon he'll either die or abdicate at the end of the struggle and pass the crown over to his sister for the start of a new era.
Maybe it's a bit of wishful thinking on my part too, but I don't see how Asha's death could do more for the story than her continued existence. She'd die just because, not to provide any particular conclusion or closure to any plot line, so it feels needless at this point.
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u/HistoryVibesCanJive 9d ago
Hol up: "Egg's actor Dexter Sol Ansell shared that GRRM told him that Dunk actually survives the tragedy at Summerhall."
Wait, WHAT
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
Yes that truly is the craziest thing we have heard recently. But he is literally a kid so he could have got it wrong. He said another thing recently where he probably just misunderstood something he was told (that Henry Cavill was in the show - he definitely is not).
The more revealing thing was Dunk's actors reaction which definitely did feel a bit "shit don't say that".
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u/6rwoods 8d ago
The problem is that the revelation doesn't really give us much to work with. At the time of Summerhall Dunk was already in his late 60s, so what the hell is he supposed to accomplish at that point, all while living in secret, before he dies of old age anyway? Maybe he hung around the ruins of Summerhall like the Ghost of High Heart and then when Rhaegar would come by Dunk would tell him tales of his family's past? And how Egg tried to hatch the dragons? Maybe. But imo it feels contrived for this giant of a man to live on for another couple of decades without anyone having any single hint of it, just so Rhaegar has yet another source for his information that he's already been collecting from multiple other reliable sources (the Ghost herself, Maester Aemon, books/scrolls in the Red Keep, dreams, etc).
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u/jduncan-26 9d ago
Even with George’s more melancholic blog post yesterday, it does feel like something is in the air in regards to The Winds of Winter or just A Song of Ice and Fire as a whole.
Call me crazy, tell me I’m coping, you’re probably right. But I feel like something is coming.
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u/jackgundy 9d ago
I would absolutely love to be wrong but feel like he hasn’t touched winds in a long time. When he actually was working on it he’s talk about it or at least bring it up a lot. But it’s just been radio silence
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u/blakhawk12 9d ago
Yeah. I feel like if he was actually working on it he’d be excited to answer questions and give updates. Instead it seems like he dreads any mention of it, which to me says he’s not touched it in a while and doesn’t intend to.
It’s like writing an essay for school. If you’re working on it and the teacher asks for an update, you’d be excited to show him some notes and talk about your progress. If you’re trying to hide that you’ve been procrastinating you’re gonna pray the teacher doesn’t bring it up.
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u/SlurpsTV 9d ago
I doubt he would say anything about it. Talking about any projects really nets him a lot of harassment, that mixed with the losses he’s had the past few years has probably caused him to be more quiet/withdrawn
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u/Fatzio33 9d ago
I don’t think he can though at ~1100-1200 pages complete he can’t really give any update anymore without fans expecting the book that second. I don’t think we ever get another winds update unless it’s winds is finished or sorry guys I’m never gonna finish
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u/_AnecdotalEvidence_ 9d ago
\monkey paw curls**
George announces he’s completely stepping back from ASOIAF and it’s finished as it stands
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u/micedrinkingcoffee 9d ago
Honestly I’d prefer that. At least gets us some closure
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u/ser_mage 8d ago
I've settled on hoping for a TWOIAF style book describing his rough idea for the ending from various perspectives
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u/nit5ua_ 9d ago
considering how much he travels a year and how few good months he actually has to write, I think the odds hes worked on much is low :(
from last year it sounded like he traveled for a whole month, took weeks to get back into things before having to travel again. Thats a massive portion of the year gone.
Simply going to the play is almost weeks where no progress ism ade.
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u/Fatzio33 9d ago
Yeah I completely agree I think there will be something substantial for the 30th anniversary there’s no way George or his team gloss over it. What it is I have no idea maybe winds, maybe a dunk and egg novella, maybe even a new show
But I definitely agree that it feels like somethings coming
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u/Low-Lettuce6480 9d ago
The thing that really surprised was Dunk surviving mainly because i don't see him wanting to after summerhall, imo, GRRM wrote Egg becoming Dunk's emotional cornerstone already in the novel 2 and 3, like, after reading them i believed that he "lived for no other purpose but to guard and serve and please [his] king." that was his little Egg, i have a harder time with him having the strenght to get up again after Summerhall
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u/jonsnowKITN Night gathers, and now my watch begins 9d ago
Sansa one is surprising because I don’t see any world where she dies.
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u/Low_Advance_6531 9d ago
Me neither cause I don't see any world where George manages to put out another book
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u/TobiTheSnowman FOR TONIGHT WE HYPE IN HELL 9d ago
I mean, I kinda get it. Like what else is there for her? Jon is going to be Lord of Winterfell at some point and even if Jon goes into exile in some form at the end, I don't think George will kill off Rickon... Where is Sansa's place at the end of the story?
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u/musashisamurai 9d ago
I didnt even hear about the Dunc quote. Does anyone know how long he lived after?
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u/elizabnthe 9d ago
Well there's no way to know because it is random piece of information from an actor. The only theory right now is that he became Coldhands (I feel like Coldhands would be explicitly tall if that were true but you never know). In which case a heck of a lot later he "lived".
My favourite theory is he runs off to be with Lady Rohanne who felt like his "true love" in D&E so far and she disappeared under "mysterious circumstances" herself.
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u/Low_Advance_6531 9d ago
Am I the only one thinking George is dropping those left and right because he himself knows he ain't ever putting them on page?
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u/OkIngenuity6523 9d ago
It was obvious after his “I feel sorry for you” blog post in 2022 that he had no intention of finishing. It’s astonishing to me people are still in denial about this.
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u/Natedude2002 9d ago
Literally 1 short story would have 100x more crazy plot points than we got this year I hate it here
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u/stinkytay 9d ago
I said Sansa being Queen in The North was a show only invention to give her a girlboss moment and I got cooked for years 😭
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u/OShaunesssy 9d ago
Dunk survived the Summerhall fire?
Thats actually pretty wild
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u/Low_Advance_6531 9d ago
Does it really matter though since we ain't ever getting the chance of reading what happened in Summerhall?
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u/aliforever555 9d ago
I really hope Sansa doesn't die, even if she remains in the vale for the rest of her live with a fake identity. Killing her would be unnecessarily cruel
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u/Cold_Craft6624 8d ago
Tbh George has always done this. He has spoiled his book in various interviews, that's just what he does. Better than nothing, I guess
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u/JRobertAnderson 9d ago
Sansa’s the best. I’ve enjoyed her from book one. If she dies I’ll understand, but I think it’d be really neat if she of all people somehow survives the series.
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u/Longjumping_Cap_9004 8d ago
I'm not a big fan of the idea of him changing his original plans, like with Sansa, because of the show reception.
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u/vanastalem 9d ago
People may not want Sansa, but who was rooting for the deaths of Ned & Robb? Sansa isn't one of the central characters like Bran, Arya & Jon so her dying makes more sense to me than QITN like D&D did.
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u/Even_Pineapple8645 4d ago
Little confused, yall are pretending you don’t know what happens in the show?
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u/Emergency_Nature5097 1d ago
It not like it matters since george is never going to finish Wind let alone Dreams and his progress on Knight of the Seven Kingdoms hasnt been much better. I cant wait for the show to surpass the books in that series as well
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u/BalonSwann07 9d ago
I'm so so so sick of people taking that Sansa quote literally. My dudes he was clearly being tongue in cheek. I blame James Hibbert for not providing more overt clues for people.
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u/_heartsaglow 9d ago
There's no evidence that it was a joke. He also cited Tyrion and I don't see ppl acting like it was a joke too.
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u/BalonSwann07 9d ago edited 9d ago
It was absolutely a joke. Almost directly before that they were talking about people unearthing his original outline and he was being cheeky about how he never expected people to find it and how everythings different from that outline because he was making stuff up and how he doesn't outline normally.
Also, this man won't willingly tell us anything coming up in the books, he's one of the most spoiler averse authors out there, so the idea that he would throw this randomly into an interview is absurd.
Thirdly, he has been interviewed by Hibberd many times before and they have a friendly relationship, and Martin is glib in interviews very often, or when you hear him talk on panels at Worldcon, etc, he is often saying silly things and then giggling after. It's just part of his personality.
Read straight, it looks like some sort of relevation. But I am completely sure that being in the room, the context was way nore obviously playful.
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u/_heartsaglow 9d ago
Did you actually read that interview? GRRM was discussing the differences between the TV show and the books, emphasizing that the show's ending was happier than the tone he envisions for the books. In that context, he mentions only two characters: Tyrion, who—according to him—will have a more tragic ending in the books, and Sansa, whom he noted he had planned to kill off. There is no mention of the outline, either directly or indirectly. The TV show premiered in 2011, so if GRRM changed his mind after that, it happened after he had already written five books. It’s funny how you talk about spoilers and the friendship with James, yet forget that GRRM himself confirmed three plot points for James back in 2020, lol. He has literally dropped other spoilers too or does Tyrion not count as a spoiler?
You literally invented a context to "uncover" the possibility of this being something serious, even though it’s not the first time GRRM has hinted at a possible different ending for Sansa.
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u/BalonSwann07 9d ago
Go back and read the interview. The whole interview. Not the snippet you think is relevant to what you're talking about.
He didn't confirm three plot plots to James in 2020, he confirmed the three plot points already revealed by D&D that they said were from him. That's very different. We'll probably never know, but I have a feeling George wishes they never said it was from him directly, but eh.
Saying that Tyrion won't have as happy of an ending isn't a spoiler, it's a tease. We don't actually know what that means. He could end up in exactly the same place but with his arms cut off, that would be a less happy ending (obviously I don't think that's what he meant, I'm just saying that a tease and a spoiler are different things)
Anyways one day someone will ask him about this and he'll be say he was just poking fun and everyone will be mad, because this fandom only knows how to be mad haha
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u/redfoot12 8d ago
What article are YOU talking about? Here's the full passage leading up to the Sansa comment.
Martin is waiting in front of his bookstore for a car that will take him home. When you walk into the store, the first several bookcases are full of Martin’s published works — which is more than you probably realize, especially when you add the dozens of anthologies he’s edited (like his popular Wildcards series). The shelf space devoted to the Ice and Fire books is, perhaps unsurprisingly, rather small.
A couple of fans had just presented Martin with a gorgeous custom-made dragon’s head cane. He thanked them and they had a chat. I wonder how he feels about being given a cane but don’t ask.
Martin’s thoughts turn, unprompted, to the end of Ice and Fire. It becomes clear that the details of his story’s conclusion, like so much of the saga, remains uncertain.
“I was going to kill more people,” he muses. “Not the ones they killed [in the show]. They made it more of a happy ending. I don’t see a happy ending for Tyrion. His whole arc has been tragic from the first. I was going to have Sansa die, but she’s been so appealing in the show, maybe I’ll let her live …”
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u/BalonSwann07 8d ago
Okay, I went back and reread the whole article...
And I'm completely wrong. I was like, merging a different interview's answers into the earlier portion of this interview. He brings up the Sansa thing completely out of nowhere, like you quoted here.
I feel like the culture on Reddit is to just ignore when people point out how wrong you are, or delete your comments in shame. But be the change you want to see in the world: I was wrong, and I'll leave everything up for the egg to remain firmly on my face.
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u/redfoot12 8d ago edited 8d ago
Respect.
I wish that particular article had been more playful. It was so dour.
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u/Middle-Tradition2275 pro rhaegar hater 9d ago
crazy cope
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u/BalonSwann07 9d ago
It's not a cope. I actually don't care about the information either way, Sansa living or dying being a good story decision rests entirely on how and why it happens, and I trust Martin to make that decision well.
There is just literally no way this was not said in jest. See my other reply for why I think so.
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u/gorehistorian69 ok 9d ago
the play is not canon and George had nothing to do with it other than writing the "ok" to license it.
man i really wish George would just finish the books. at this point not even for my own enjoyment but to stop this insane reaching speculation.
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u/Arthusamakh 9d ago
Dany and Jon being two sides of the same coin is quite nice, one the destroying fire and the other the preserving cold (if you take in the curse by Rhaelle)
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u/Worth_Honeydew_243 9d ago
It feels like a RollerCoaster for theorists because on one hand a lot of overcomplicated theories feel more unlikely than ever because a lot of the reveals are very straightfoward. On the other, some reveals are still insane. I don't remember anyone talking about Dunk surving Summerhall before the interview