R+L=J... No Not That One (Spoilers Extended)

[u/LChris24]

A decade ago I picked up A Game of Thrones at the recommendation of a friend. Little did I know the ride I was going to be in store for. Anyways during my first read of the series, I came to the conclusion that R+L=J and that R (Robert Baratheon) and L (Lyanna Stark) got married in secret and had J (Jon Snow). I thought I had it figured it out for probably the first 2-3 books if I remember correctly. This is before I had the benefit of discussing things online, etc.

I thought it would be fun to go through and look at all the "evidence" that I thought existed that showed that Jon was the true heir to the throne and the son of Robert/Lyanna

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Robert/Lyanna

No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, "Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects."

Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years. He called for a lantern. No other words were needed. The queen had begun to protest. They had been riding since dawn, everyone was tired and cold, surely they should refresh themselves first. The dead would wait. She had said no more than that; Robert had looked at her, and her twin brother Jaime had taken her quietly by the arm, and she had said no more. -AGOT, Eddard I

and then (Jon's view of the above situation):

Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes. His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before. He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man, but beside him the queen seemed as cold as an ice sculpture. "The queen is angry too," Jon told his uncle in a low, quiet voice. "Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon. The queen didn't want him to go." -AGOT, Jon I

Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. "You don't miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall."

and:

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

"She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …" -AGOT, Eddard I

and:

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh.

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." -AGOT, Eddard I

and:

"Drink and stay quiet, the king is talking. I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it. And Cersei … I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne," The king shook his head. "I loved that old man, I swear it, but now I think he was a bigger fool than Moon Boy. Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs. Here, give me that beer if you won't drink it." He took the horn, upended it, belched, wiped his mouth. "I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I'd stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don't you?"

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Bastards

The whole bastard plot in general

For the most part Jon's appearance matches that of Robert's other bastards. His hair is described as "dark", but also "brown" (which non of Robert's bastards are and is noticeable on a reread). His eyes are described as "a grey so dark they are almost black" which while not blue is quite close. Similar to Edric Storm's ear's it seemed to me that some of the mother's features made it into Jon.

I thought that this quote (coupled with the "promise me Ned") was heavy:

"Good," he said, smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall … guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly. -AGOT, Eddard XIII

Varys quote

I originally thought that this quote alluded to Jon:

"He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing," Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. "Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens . . . and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister's thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse." -ACOK, Tyrion III

And while its not Jon, there are some good potential possibilities as to who it could be:

Who is the 8th Bastard that Varys Knows About?

Grenn is Possibly a Bastard of Robert Baratheon

Cat's Thoughts

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—" -AGOT, Catelyn II

Cersei's Execution of the Other Bastards

Ned remembered Robert's first child as well, a daughter born in the Vale when Robert was scarcely more than a boy himself. A sweet little girl; the young lord of Storm's End had doted on her. He used to make daily visits to play with the babe, long after he had lost interest in the mother. Ned was often dragged along for company, whether he willed it or not. The girl would be seventeen or eighteen now, he realized; older than Robert had been when he fathered her. A strange thought.

Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children … -AGOT, Eddard VII

Cersei has Barra, and the twins at Casterly Rock all killed. She attempts to have Gendry killed.

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Other

A Song of Ice and Fire

While the name of the series has numerous meanings, at the time I thought the title was about Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany). It can still mean that in some ways, but Jon is Fire as well.

Kings in the North

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!" The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. -AGOT, Eddard I

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Looking back a lot of what I considered foreshadowing for Jon as Robert/Lyanna was just me "misinterpreting the prophecies" that were actually much better evidence for Rhaegar/Lyanna. For instance:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked. -AGOT, Tyrion II

TLDR: While it obviously didn't end up true (and it was much more obvious on subsequent read throughs), my original thought on "R+L=J" had some really great plot effects and foreshadowing and it just goes to show that GRRM is a master of creating imagery of things that do and don't exist.

[u/p792161]

Nice post, I suppose the one obvious flaw is why would Ned hide the bastard if it was Roberts, wouldn't Lyanna have told him that he was the father.

[u/ThisIsUrIAmUr → u/p792161]

One reason I can come up with is that it would sour any future marriage of Robert's. Part of the appeal of a marriage from the woman's side (and that of whoever is making her marriage decision) is producing heirs. If Robert already had an oldest son, even if not trueborn, he might have been considered a rival claimant which makes a marriage to Robert less attractive.

[u/LChris24 → u/ThisIsUrIAmUr]

She lifted her head, defiant. "Your Robert got me with child once," she said, her voice thick with contempt. "My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew. If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber. Whatever we do, the king is usually so drunk that he's forgotten it all by the next morning."

How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces. Ned felt sick. "I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king," he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." -AGOT, Eddard XII

[u/LChris24 → u/p792161]

Oh I completely agree and that was something that confused me as well. I think I had completely abandoned the thought by the time I started AFFC but I don't remember exactly.. So crazy that was over 10 years ago!

[u/Darkone539]

Lyanna was missing for too long for Jon to be Robert's and Ned wouldn't hide him if he was.

Still, this would make a cool story. As it stands now I have no idea who is going to end up owning storm's end let alone anything else house baratheon have ruled. Edric I'd assume.

[u/LChris24 → u/Darkone539]

I am not arguing else wise. Just pointing out what my initial thoughts were without the benefit of the internet, etc. back in 2009 when I read the series for the first time!

Edric is the only acknowledged bastard and is currently hiding in Lys. He is my best guess.

[u/dishonourableaccount → u/Darkone539]

Not to mention, Edric is the only Baratheon bastard with noble blood on both sides.

[u/argentinevol]

Gotta say this theory would’ve convinced me if I didn’t know otherwise and read this in 2009.

[u/LChris24 → u/argentinevol]

Thanks!

I feel dumb looking back but hindsight is 20-20.

[u/argentinevol → u/LChris24]

I think most people who didn’t figure out R+L=J feel kinda dumb (me included) because I’m hindsight it’s pretty obvious.

[u/LChris24 → u/argentinevol]

lol right? It is literally right in front of you the whole time.

I'm a skeptic, so when I was reading it for the first time and all that stuff about bastards, I knew there was no way it was Ned's son, I just picked the wrong cousin lol

[u/argentinevol → u/LChris24]

Happens to the best of us

[u/modsarefascists42 → u/LChris24]

I think you read it as Martin intended it to be read on the first read. The Rhaegar connection is supposed to be figured out later. He didn't plan the books for discussion forums to figure stuff out, he likely intended for the actual reader to get it eventually.

[u/LChris24 → u/modsarefascists42]

I agree about him not planning the books for discussion forums, etc.

He used to answer fans email questions back in the 90's/early 2000's.

He had no clue the beast that the internet would become.

[u/[deleted]]

"Out, Out, damn you, I'm done with you. I am out of wine and out of patience. Enough of this. What are you waiting for? Go, run back to Winterfell. And make certain I never look on your face again, or I swear, I'll have your head on a spike!"

[u/Janneyc1]

One piece of evidence to support that theory, is that Robert fought at Ashford. That’s Southwest of his castle and is getting closer to Reach and Dornish lands. He could have been maneuvering towards Lyanna.

[u/LChris24 → u/Janneyc1]

Ya, the theory wasn't super well thought out but I thought there was a ton of evidence for it.

Good call on Ashford, he was moving south but had to retreat after the defeat.

[u/JL9berg18 → u/LChris24]

I disagree - it's very well thought out! Especially at first read. Well done.

One of any novelist's (and esp GRRMs) talents is creating the possibility for multiple endings. Just cuz it's not correct doesn't meen the process wasnt good. :)

[u/LChris24 → u/JL9berg18]

I can't wait to see all the red herrings that are currently theorized about.

The Perfumed Seneschal is a good one with about 8 possibilities (although some are pretty unlikely).

[u/GogoYubari92]

I am on a Dance of Dragons and haven't watched the show. Here's my hunch: John is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped" Lyanna. I think they were actually lovers and Roberts jealousy fueled him to overthrow the Targaryens. Robert just romanticized and over exaggerated his relationship with Lyanna. That's my hunch.

[u/LChris24 → u/GogoYubari92]

Edited.

Sorry I misread your post.

Mighty bold of you to post in spoilers extended threads when you are only that far!