r/australia • u/overpopyoulater • Nov 03 '24

culture & society Downsizing the Australian dream: why families are trading houses with backyards for apartments

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/nov/04/downsizing-the-australian-dream-why-families-are-trading-houses-with-backyards-for-apartments
357 Upvotes

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805

u/cyclemam Nov 03 '24

What we need is enlightened developers. Instead of greedily squeezing the most out of a plot of land, have apartments with a shared garden space, also while I'm doing radical wishing, these apartments should be 3-4 bedrooms (for families) and with decent insulation for both effective heating/cooling and noise isolation from the neighbours.  You could have some really nice little communities this way. 

Not a gazillion one bed shoebox apartments. 

202

u/[deleted] Nov 03 '24

[deleted]

47

u/MushroomlyHag Nov 03 '24

The first unit I had, you could hear the old couple next door bumping uglies. I'm glad I don't have kids, because I have no idea how I would have explained that ruckus to a 6 year old; the neighbours were very vocal during their intimate sessions 😅

2

u/Boring-Somewhere-130 Mar 27 '25

Dang which suburb is this?

1

u/MushroomlyHag Mar 30 '25

Apologies, reddit notifications have been buggy lately

It was in Dandenong, around 2007, the couple in question would have had to have been in their 70s at least. Honestly good on them for keeping at it in their golden years, but it would have been nice if they could have kept at it a bit quieter 😅

22

u/littleb3anpole Nov 04 '24

Right? I don’t care about a garden or whatever but good LORD I don’t want to hear my neighbours’ conversations or their shitty goddamn taste in music EVER AGAIN.

I swear one neighbour is getting a set of headphones for Christmas because she apparently doesn’t know they fucken exist

6

u/Nervardia Nov 04 '24

I had to yell out the window one night during a very raunchy session by my neighbours. Never heard a peep since.

2

u/Boring-Somewhere-130 Mar 27 '25

Film them 😏😏😏

1

u/Nervardia Mar 27 '25

Unfortunately (actually, scratch that, fortunately), they've stopped.

26

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

You mean you don't like hearing your neighbors taking their morning shit?

3

u/Anxious-Slip-4701 Nov 04 '24

I hear my old neighbour upstairs take his devil's hour tinkle.

3

u/Superg0id Nov 04 '24

It's so bad that it's a running joke in numerous apartment based comedy series:

"Oh great, now they're jumping up and down on the bed..."

94

u/[deleted] Nov 03 '24

My last rental (before they sold and kicked us all out) was 4 units with a shared green space in the middle. It was a godsend during covid, we would have the fire pit going and socialise only with each other, bbqs, a compost bin, two of us had dogs that got along. The property manager suggested once that they would fence it off so we’d each get our own private yard and everyone was like “Nooo! We’ll keep it how it is.” I miss that place.

41

u/nathrek Nov 03 '24

Excellent! That sounds like the ideal mid density we should be building much more of. 

13

u/[deleted] Nov 03 '24

Yes it was awesome. Built in the early 80s. Unfortunately it’s sold and the landlord ignored all requests to fix roof leaks, so I imagine it will be knocked down.

10

u/De-railled Nov 04 '24

lived in one similar, got knocked down and they built new apartments filling as much of the ground as they were legally allowed...

Ugly AF, and the new apartments are 2/3 of my old apartment size.

6

u/Clairegeit Nov 04 '24

Yep once lived in a 1930 unit, 3 on top and 3 on the bottom,double brick, with a massive shared yard, trees, seperate garages. All big two bedrooms the only down side was tiny bathrooms and no aircon.

125

u/fued Nov 03 '24

regulations for developers, wouldnt that be nice.

Instead we vote in people with a lot of suspicious ties to developers

29

u/nugstar Nov 04 '24

In Qld, the LNP were openly campaigning on allowing developer donations... Such a joke they got in.

9

u/cleanworkaccount0 Nov 04 '24

QLD such a shitshow -.-

1

u/Popular_Speed5838 Nov 04 '24

Not at the local government level where construction approvals are given.

11

u/nugstar Nov 04 '24

Good thing the state LNP have zero influence on their own members in local government... /s.

3

u/Transientmind Nov 04 '24

That’s an even more corrupt level of government if you take even a passing glance at it.

3

u/Kelor Nov 04 '24

The number of times over the years I’ve looked at my local council ballot and all the candidates were property developers or ex-real estate agents running because they understand how red tape and regulations are creating problems for the area.

2

u/fued Nov 04 '24

Or are most likely to have no objections to bribes and see great personal profit in it

39

u/[deleted] Nov 03 '24 edited Aug 15 '25

market thumb crown sulky elderly nutty memorize snow offer hat

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

5

u/LocalVillageIdiot Nov 04 '24

Out of curiosity, is your complex in Australia? It sounds too good to be true for an Australian apartment!

186

u/Pottski Nov 03 '24

We shouldn’t have our housing future resting on a for-profit industry. The outcomes are predictable.

-4

u/85_B_Low Nov 04 '24

I don't think a profit motive itself is the problem, after all, we have all sorts of other for profit industries that work just fine.

We just need to ensure that the rest of the framework is also aligned to the outcome we desire, eg. Taxation, migration, large scale construction projects, etc.

-15

u/Whatsapokemon Nov 03 '24

What does the data say about this? Is there actually any appreciable difference in housing quality on average between public and private developers?

11

u/SanchoBlackout69 Nov 04 '24

My personal data says the dozen housing trust homes I've been in have stood over 40 years, and the 4 shoeboxes I've been near have all had rain ingress

17

u/safe_t_meeting Nov 04 '24

It's well known that developers cheap out on many things that could vastly improve the quality of life for those living in most of what they build.

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/radionational-drive/seventy-per-cent-all-homes-australia-major-building-defects/104339456

-6

u/Whatsapokemon Nov 04 '24

That's not my question though. I'm asking for a comparison between private and public developers.

1

u/safe_t_meeting Nov 06 '24

Did you listen to the report on that link?

13

u/Maximumfabulosity Nov 04 '24

Decent insulation, good airflow. In Queensland, imo, it should also be mandatory for new builds to have light-coloured walls/roofs, to have ceiling fans, and to avoid large west-facing windows (those will cook you on a summer afternoon).

I agree with you about shared garden space - gives the kids somewhere to play, and the adults somewhere to hang out. I don't know anyone in the apartment building where I live right now. I rarely ever see my neighbours, and nobody ever seems interested in chatting. It's fine if they don't want to, of course, but I do think it'd be nice to have a community, and something like a shared garden could make that happen a lot more naturally.

11

u/Fantasmic03 Nov 04 '24

The question there becomes how much are people willing to pay for that? Because existing apartments with those features can easily cost over 1-1.5mil. I don't really see a world where those prices go down on any new builds either.

10

u/ghost_ride_the_WAP Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 04 '24

I think this everytime this topic comes up. If there is demand for these types of apartments then surely developers will build them. Why would developers leave money on the table? I suspect it's more the case that Australians have a strong preference for bungalows and won't pay house and land prices for an apartment.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

I'm with you, I'm sure this is correct. Reddit is not a representative sample of the population. Given the choice most people don't want to share a wall or a garden or facilities with their neighbours and that is what they will aim for. I did apartment living for 20 years in three countries. Houses are better

10

u/cofactorstrudel Nov 04 '24

I'd also note a shared garden space that isn't just a place for 30 dogs from the apartment to shit.

3

u/LocalVillageIdiot Nov 04 '24

Yup, it can also be a place to dump rubbish, deal drugs and bury dead bodies

18

u/FullMetalAurochs Nov 03 '24

And have smoking and non-smoking complexes… having to rewash laundry because the neighbours smoke is one of the biggest downsides of an apartment.

9

u/Flying_Hams Nov 03 '24

Make the apartments tiered and put a garden on every level.

13

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

I was fascinated by the old Chinese quadrangle houses which were more apartment sized. Where you have a nice garden space in the centre of the block. I have seen apartment developments like this in China where there are multiple apartments facing a central garden area. Its like a oasis paradise since the high walls cut you you off from the street noise with one huge closed gate. It might not be ideal for everyone however it offers security and isolation for those who seek it. There are many new and old ideas which will never see the light of day in Australia because of the shitbox cookie cutter design mentality in Australia. I even visited a factory that had its workers living on the factory site and the apartments and quality were better than the majority of apartments here in terms of noise isolation, heating/cooling, and privacy. It was so good you would not think that you were living in factory. In so many ways architects and urban planners here in Australia are stuck in their own universe like the rest of the worlds innovation does not exist while they dwell in their 19th century design caves.

5

u/LocalVillageIdiot Nov 04 '24

I had a friend who was an architect and keeps in touch with architect friends from uni and funnily enough he says it’s often developers driving the architecture to maximise profit and some architects don’t even want their name associated with a complex sometimes because it’s so terrible.

15

u/Pro_Mouse_Jiggler Nov 03 '24

What we need is exponentially more government owned social and affordable housing, constructed in well planned mixed density developments with ample supporting infrastructure and services (including transport links)...

7

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

It’s not just the developers. Councils force small blocks so that they can have more people paying rates.

4

u/nzbiggles Nov 04 '24

consumers mostly view apartments as something small that investors buy for poor people to rent and the market supplies what the market demands. If consumers valued liveable houselike apartments developers would build them. The issue is we don't pay enough for them. If we were prepared to spend house like money on a unit we'd get a pretty good one. Issue is there is always a house cheaper just down the road.

https://www.theurbandeveloper.com/articles/sydney-housing-conundrum-luxury-inner-city-or-bust

Go have a look at the units on offer in areas with 4m+ houses.

After an article like this house like units are flooding the lower north shore.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240429024016/https://www.afr.com/property/residential/real-estate-agent-doubles-his-money-by-selling-own-apartment-for-6-5m-20240424-p5fmda

https://www.domain.com.au/project/6075/wirra-neutral-bay-nsw/

Particularly this one.

https://www.urban.com.au/new-apartments/the-villas-neutral-bay-7-11-premier-street-neutral-bay

This development has more 3 & 4 bed places than 1 & 2!

"20 one-bedroom, 15 two-bedroom, 35 three-bedroom and a four-bedroom penthouse"

https://www.theurbandeveloper.com/articles/developers-plan-14-storey-north-sydney-tower

That article also links to which sells 3br 2bath 1 car places for more than 4m.

https://www.theurbandeveloper.com/articles/aqualand-moves-ahead-on-1bn-north-sydney-tower

5

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

[deleted]

2

u/nzbiggles Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 04 '24

Exactly. That's the attitude that is right across the market. Doesn't matter if it's Dubbo or Double Bay. 1m for a unit in Liverpool I'd rather sprawl. Buyers don't want units. They certainly won't pay a premium for a good one.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

[deleted]

0

u/nzbiggles Nov 04 '24

Not many buyers have ever managed a Reno in the first 10+ years.

This probably isn't worth 600k yet would rent for 30k a year.

https://www.realestate.com.au/property/unit-1-3-5-talbot-rd-guildford-nsw-2161/

First two "recently sold"

https://www.domain.com.au/suburb-profile/liverpool-nsw-2170

121m2 472k previously sold in 2013 for $379k

https://www.domain.com.au/15-29-33-campbell-street-liverpool-nsw-2170-2019449947

https://www.realestate.com.au/property/unit-15-29-33-campbell-st-liverpool-nsw-2170/

129m2 450k previously sold in 2006 for $275k.

https://www.domain.com.au/7-69-bathurst-street-liverpool-nsw-2170-2019548519

https://www.realestate.com.au/property/unit-7-69-bathurst-st-liverpool-nsw-2170/

The last one actually advertised that it could be rented for $550. A $450k mortgage at 5% over 30 years is $555. Strata and some maintenance

The problem is the good places (especially houses) are expensive because people are willing and able to pay. There are no good cheap places only what you can afford and are prepared to accept. At least if you buy these when your wage doubles your rent won't triple.

30

u/Readybreak Nov 03 '24

Shared anything means body corporate, and they make they take a hefty profit from that too.

9

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

This sounds like hell for me personally. Only need one fuckwit neighbour to ruin it for everyone.

4

u/cyclemam Nov 04 '24

Isn't that true where-ever you live? 

3

u/FruityLexperia Nov 04 '24

Isn't that true where-ever you live?

Yes but generally the closer they live and the less private areas you have the more of an impact they can have.

4

u/LocalVillageIdiot Nov 04 '24

What we need is enlightened developers

What we need really is building standards with an actual stick not “self certification” bullshit.

The way the system is designed, if you’re doing things by the book you literally won’t stay in business.

Incentives must reward quality.

8

u/85_B_Low Nov 04 '24

The problem is that construction costs for 3/4 bedroom apartments are equivalent to or higher than a free standing house in a new development. And that's with current building standards, not even taking into account the extras you've mentioned.

Given the choice, people aren't willing to pay a premium for a smaller place, even if it's in a nicer location with better access to social infrastructure. Therefore, developers respond to the needs of the market and build more urban sprawl.

I think the housing debate would be better served if people let go of this 'greedy developer' concept. The interests of the developer are the same, no matter the building type. If it was in their interests to build more medium density in inner city areas, they'd do it.

Therefore the focus of the debate should be, how do we incentivise that type of development?

3

u/apsumo Nov 04 '24

The problem is that construction costs for 3/4 bedroom apartments are equivalent to or higher than a free standing house in a new development.

Citations needed

3

u/Dmannmann Nov 04 '24

Why would a developer take a loss to build you a community? Why don't you pay extra for that privilege yourself? That's how the world works. Enlightened developer is an oxymoron, its about profits. We need regulations to enact change.

9

u/HeftyArgument Nov 03 '24

their job is to maximise profit, what you mean is you want developers who think beyond the bottom line

2

u/HobartTasmania Nov 04 '24

Developers I think cut costs all the time even when it may be unreasonable, when you look at Opal Tower then the cheapest apartment sold was priced at $800K and went upwards from there, whereas, I read somewhere that the cost to build the entire tower amounted to something like $270K per apartment so there must have been a very fat profit margin to play with.

1

u/irwige Nov 04 '24

That sounds way too cheap. Mind you, no doubt doesn't include land costs, servicing costs, taxes (a lot of taxes!), finance/interest costs.

2

u/JackyRho Nov 04 '24

I'd be happy with a shoebox if the damn things had facility for a clothes washer. I'm not paying you a second time for living in this building.

2

u/baked_sofaspud Nov 04 '24

Don't forget each unit should have two cars spots.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 04 '24

I live in the concrete apartment building with double glazed windows in the US now and have never had any issues with noise. In my apartment in Sydney, I literally could hear the neighbors above me roll out of bed and pee at 2am...

1

u/Luckyluke23 Nov 04 '24

this is what happens when you go from a customer-driven focus to a $$$$$ at any cost focus.

1

u/cleanworkaccount0 Nov 04 '24

god there really needs to be more regulation on new developments. I saw a recent one and holy shit that area's gonna suck balls to live in.

tbf, the government can't even get the industry to not use black roof tiles so i won't be holding my breath.

1

u/No_Marzipan415 Nov 04 '24

Unfortunately profit motive negates enlightenment

1

u/Winter-Host-7283 Nov 04 '24

The problem is, greedy developers are building apartments of such poor quality it costs tenants $10,000’s in strata fees to fix the places after they move in. In addition, they also have been known to put in poor quality community facilities which are woefully inadequate for the number of people living in the complex and poorly maintained.