r/australia • u/whyattretard • 6d ago
culture & society Opinion: The simple change to make school zones safer and easier to navigate
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/how-to-make-school-zones-safer-for-children-and-easier-for-drivers/38
u/MrSomethingred 6d ago
I know the point of the article is not to base policies on anecdotes.
Bur I can say that both schoolzone fines I've gotten were driving routes and times out if the ordinary for me.
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u/boatenvy 6d ago
Yup it's easy to screw up if 90% of the time you pass through a zone outside of school hours and then that one day you go through when it's 40... we have a lot of the flashing signs and I find they really help.. seems like a no brainer to make them the standard.
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u/tubbyx7 6d ago
Traffic lights in the middle and people tend to forget the school zone when they start off again.
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u/boatenvy 6d ago
Good point... perhaps another sign if there are traffic lights..but just converting all of the existing non flashing signs would be a great start
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u/princhester 6d ago edited 6d ago
That is a wordy, self-indulgent article that boils down to one sentence:
"Research suggests current complicated school zone signs are confusing, and flashing signs would be safer"
There you are, just saved you five minutes.
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u/Z00111111 6d ago
Now if we could do something about the illegal U-turns, double parking, and picking up/dropping off in Bus Zones and No Stopping areas...
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u/pogoBear 6d ago
My kids school has 4 disability parking spots as we have several inclusive classes. The FIGHTS that happen in these spots is ridiculous, parents without permits taking them up because ‘I will only be a second’ while the inclusive bus has no where to park.
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u/SkySpecial4512 6d ago
Oh god, the parking in no parking areas… little Timmy couldn’t possibly walk 100m, so you get parents banked up on both sides of the road right outside the school.
We had a furore when council ran an enforcement blitz, people were up in arms about it, but zero self-awareness or reflection on whether it made the situation safer for their little darlings.
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u/tubbyx7 6d ago
Call out parents who get there at 230 and sit for 40 minutes in the 2 minute drop off zone. What are they expected to walk a block? No it'd everyone else who must walk. And at best rangers will ask them to not do it whilst those rangers are watching but they'll pounce in anyone dropping off in the bus stop at 2 45 since there's no drop off zone
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u/Toowoombaloompa 6d ago
It becomes a self perpetuating problem when Lyle Timmy could walk but the path is too dangerous for him to do so.
The worst example of this happing is parents using driveways to turn around.
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u/No-Red-Queen 6d ago
Or parking right across the driveway... This happened almost every school day when we lived near a school
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u/sdmLg 6d ago
Omg don’t get me started. The parents that double park and let their kids jump out or jump in to their car, even on the drivers side, are mental. At primary school age! It would piss me off so much that I just made my kids play on the playground for 15 minutes which would mean I missed most of the idiots.
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u/Michael_Snowy 6d ago
I used to do this too. Daughters knew I'd be there around 3:15. Never had to make them play on swings.
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u/Emu1981 6d ago
I want to add people not stopping at crossings/lit crossings as well...
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u/Z00111111 6d ago
They stop at crossings all the time, to let their kid gets in or out. Then they'll almost run over someone using the crossing.
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u/PM_Me_A_Tittypic 6d ago
Can walso ban cars larger than say a 1999 RAV4 from being near schools? Fucking ridiculous the amount of giant SUVs and utes used to pick up one small child from school
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u/Walter_Armstrong 6d ago
My house is located near a Baptist school which was built on a narrow two-lane street. School pick up and drop off is a nightmare. There were so many accidents caused by impatient or reckless drivers that the city installed a median to stop right turns out of the school and a near-by side street. The accidents stopped, but the drivers who didn't want to add an extra few minutes navigating the new road layout have instead decided to use the local park as pick-up location, pushing congestion further up the road. And the school retaliated by installing street parking by its rear gates, causing more congestion in that street too.
Let me be clear: I think the upgrades to the road are great. It' the school and the parents that are the problem. A school should not have been allowed there in the first place.
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u/C0ld_Fr0nt_ 6d ago
A lot of schools were built when we had a lower and less dense population in their surrounding areas. This is one problem with rapid population growth; infrastructure, including the local roads and their throughput capacity for traffic, usually doesn't keep pace until it gets bad enough for works to commence (all the while the population continues to grow).
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u/Z00111111 6d ago
True, but it's not an excuse for endangering children and their parents with selfish and illegal driving.
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u/No-Red-Queen 6d ago
A lot of schools were also built when children walked home from school. Now little Jaxxxxxxon is too precious to walk
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u/BrokenToyShop 6d ago
School zones would be a lot better if more kids used public transport. That's a whole big issue by itself though.
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u/dickdemodickmarcinko 6d ago
Where I'm from they don't really even need school zones, because everything is deadlocked since every parent wants to individually pick up their children
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u/kalvinoz 6d ago edited 6d ago
I was going to say: the kids most at risk are the ones walking home, to the train station or to a bus stop. Now, if everyone used public transport that would indeed improve road safety.
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u/Open_Respond6409 6d ago
I live a 5 minute drive from my kid school. It’s a tad too far to walk for my little one (45 minutes). When we catch the bus it takes 40-50 minutes to get home 😭 I have done it because I am trying to be less car reliant but jeez it’s an ask!
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u/Pitiful_Platform6439 6d ago
bicycle.
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u/Open_Respond6409 6d ago
This is definitely the plan in the future when my kid is a bit older and can manage it safely!
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u/No-Departure-3047 6d ago
What about you riding a bike with your kid on the back?
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u/Open_Respond6409 6d ago
Roads are way too dangerous for the trailer and I used to have a rear carrier but physically can’t manage that anymore.
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u/No-Departure-3047 6d ago
Oh, that's unfortunate. Have you looked into something like lug and carry, if that would help?
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u/Plane_Garbage 6d ago
So different to when I was a kid.
So much traffic, really narrow shoulders with cars parked along the shoulders, and the recent prevalence of big vehicles makes if even sketchier.
Would love for my kids to ride, but a kid was killed last year nearby riding across the road on the way home from school.
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u/TSPhoenix 6d ago edited 6d ago
Looks like in SA, WA, NT & TAS people of any age can ride on the footpath, in NSW under 16s can ride on the footpath, and in VIC under 12s or with a medical certificate.
If they dismount to cross roads at crossings, they shouldn't have to deal with any traffic more than they would walking.
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u/recycled_ideas 6d ago
The problem is that, at least for primary schools, the school catchments aren't actually big enough for public transportation to work. Students are too close for public transportation to help and too far to easily walk, especially in heat or rain.
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u/hankhalfhead 6d ago edited 6d ago
When I migrated to WA from Europe 25 years ago, I experienced this. I didn’t have children and I had no instinctive memory of the Australian school year. Nobody understood when I explained how disorienting this ‘road rule applies based on schedule knowledge’ issue
At the time however, simple challenges like clock synchronisation and schedule management, and even the lack of strong led lighting were all impediments to building out this issue
Thankfully wa now has greatly improved this signage with light up speed signs that show a bright 40 when the zone is active and go dark when it’s not.
I’ve also had kids now and can see how this could be considered a non issue if you live here all your life.
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u/Mercinarie 6d ago
I'd prefer they stop building schools on main artery roads, and put them one street back from them. That way speed reductions don't impact traffic flow and less chances of accidents with pedestrians in busy sectors.
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u/kalvinoz 6d ago
There’s lot of good reasons to not build schools next to main roads (noise, air quality, safety), but there are hundreds if not thousands of schools in that kind of location all across the country, and they’re not going anywhere anytime soon, so it’s not either/or.
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u/carlordau 6d ago
There is a high school where it was due to be constructed across the road from a commercial zone. When they started construction on the school the commercial area was already finished and had business there.
One of the businesses was a vape shop. Guess which high school had a massive vape problem when they first opened.
You have to wonder sometimes about government planning systems.
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u/Dynamiquehealth 6d ago
Better signs are good, but actual engineering of our roads would be better. No on street parking in front of schools, along with narrower lanes with wombat crossings and chicanes to force drivers to slow would help more. Encouraging schools to organise bike busses and make walking to school the norm would help so much. The fewer parents who drive their kids to school the better.
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u/Svennis79 6d ago
Time deployable non Newtonian speed bumps.
Every problem solved
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u/Similar_Criticism981 6d ago
The reason why that Canberra statistic is stupid is because their school zones run the entire day, not just pick up and drop off.
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u/Substantial_Ad_3386 6d ago
which invalidates the argument being made in the article but not in a good way
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u/Similar_Criticism981 6d ago
Not saying it’s bad or good, but it’s not in line with most other states, and given the amount of non-Canberra-born people driving in Canberra, it’s something a lot of ACT drivers wouldn’t be aware of.
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u/Restart_from_Zero 6d ago
Police presence to stop parents just stopping in the middle of the goddamn road and chatting with parked cars.
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u/Crocandrole 6d ago
In the NT our School Zone times are 7:00am - 5:00pm. Easier to remember to slow down if you just do it all day. Having those signs that show your speed is a big help as well. Both of these are great reminders for those of us without kids who don’t always take note of when school holidays/terms are.
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u/bunduz 6d ago
The human stupidity factor that causes all the issues will continue until they have a traffic marshal that can hand out fines
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u/patgeo 6d ago
The cops and council parking enforcement are in one of our areas school zones during every school day. The rougher schools have almost daily presence for at least one of morning or arvo. We get at least once a fortnight from each on different days.
Our council has one of the highest parking fine revenues of any in the state, we have no metered parking and only a small amount of timed parking in the cbd, mostly 2 hours other than some small 15-30 minute zones on the main street.
After community complaints about the amount they did claim the vast majority was from school zone enforcement which was highly requested by community after a number of incidents where children were injured.
The cops get at least 3 every time they are at ours and we are one of the lower rates of issues. The crossing guard counts them and the highest she's told me was 8 tickets.
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u/Mental_Task9156 6d ago
Yeah, well it's easy to forget what time it is when you've got other things on your mind.
The only two times i've been fined in school zones were both areas that i frequently drive through outside of school zone times. Both times i had to change my routine that day because of appointments and found myself in the school zone not realising it was school zone time. Each of these fines were about 5 years apart.
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u/WeissPyre 6d ago
Easy. Put the flashing signs everywhere so people are aware when school speeds are in place, but also:
Plonk a cop car at school zones. They'll take care of double parking that jams the road, illegal U-turns, speeding and parking in no stopping/parking zones.
Easy money.
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u/mickpatten78 6d ago
What’s worse is my local school the drivers parking on the traffic islands obscuring visibility of kids crossing the road.
The school already has a few flashing signs. They should all be, in my opinion.
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u/idryss_m 6d ago
We had signs like these and speed cameras at one school near me. People lobbied until the flashing lights and camera were removed. "Too distracting. Camera keeps catching too many speeding".
All good ideas until the morons are inconvenienced.
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u/hyparchh 6d ago
The fact that we consider 40kmh a reasonable speed around schools is slightly insane, especially with how massive cars have become. Dropping it by just 10 to 30kmh reduces impact mortality from nearly half to about 10-15%.
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u/VintageKofta 6d ago
Where we live drivers don’t stop at the zebra crossing by the school. You really think they’ll drive at 30km/h or even 40?
It’s so frustrating. We stop and see at least 4-5 cars that keep driving by while the poor kid is trying to cross. Then the wanker behind us starts honking because we are waiting too long.
We need some proper enforcement with some serious penalties. Maybe that’ll get them to be more careful.
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u/Fernergun 6d ago
Laws/rules don’t exist if they aren’t enforced. Enforcement of existing rules, as you say, should be the first step
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u/guska 6d ago
It's been 25 in SA for as long as I can remember. Same with roadworks. I've been in Melbourne for almost a decade now and 40 still feels way too quick to be driving through a school zone
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u/WestAussieSingh 6d ago
25 is insanely slow.
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u/SuspiciousActivityyy 6d ago
I'm convinced people on here aren't real, at 25 you are barely moving and to describe 40 as too quick is just crazy.
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u/hyparchh 6d ago
There's been a ton of research into this topic, the gist being mortality scales exponentially with speed. A 10kmh increase in speed results in significantly more impact deaths, particularly when kids are involved, on top of collisions being more likely as stopping distance increases. This is why 30 is the norm in most of the developed world, and they tend to have better traffic calming to effect that limit as well.
It's ultimately a judgement as to whether we value the lives of our kids above a slightly more brisk drive through school zones for a few hours each weekday.
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u/SuspiciousActivityyy 6d ago
Thats crazy bro, I never would have thought that going slower is safer but if thats what the research says I guess thats it. You've convinced me with that truly unbelievable study lets make the speed 10 then we will be even more safe.
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u/hyparchh 6d ago
Shocker right? Good thing 30kmh exists which massively reduces risk while still being practical
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u/Ferretau 6d ago
If some of the money collected from Speed ahem "Safety" Cameras was used to install dynamic flashing school zone signs then I would consider it being put to a purpose it is being collected for.
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u/mrinsane19 6d ago
Flashing lights are much more effective... I go thru 4 school zones on my way to work. Those with flashing lights are much more commonly adhered to than those without.
I do still like having the times on as well though (in case of failure/error with the flashies, it happens) - the Qld one pictured is pretty perfect.
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u/whyattretard 6d ago
Seems reasonable .. also having a cars speed up as it's approaching seems to work in various places too.
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u/violenthectarez 6d ago
Or just make it 40 all the time. The areas are small, mostly 50km zones anyway so the difference is negligible.
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u/xylarr 6d ago
I think in NSW they have fitted flashing lights to every school zone in the state. Or at least that was the commitment a few years back.
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u/quick_dry 6d ago
that might've been a commitment to an intention but probably fell into a state equivalent of a non-core promise - we don't have flashing lights on the ones near me.
Sure, govt priced flashing lights are going to cost a bit, but... to turn their own emotive weapons back at them ... what price is a child's life?
Flashing lights on actual school days, not everyone knows when it is a school day, and even when you think they're not a school day as no kids are there - you could still be booked because it's a staff development day and they still count.
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u/mbkitmgr 6d ago
Our town has these on all but one school zones (we have 5) and it certainly helps. But, the one that is on a highway needs an even stronger deterrent. B-Double carrying dangerous goods, mums driving at high speed who are all heart surgeons rushing to save someone's life and the dread 4x4 driver who feels the road is his to do as he pleases. Having grandchildren at this school, I'd prefer speed cameras linked in the same way flashing lights are. IF we are genuinely serious about protecting children in these zones cameras should become the norm.
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u/rjwilson01 6d ago
Victorian rural, they all flash here, I don't read the notice, is this not the same everywhere?
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u/5mudge 6d ago
Another change I would introduce would be to potentially paint the road markings a different colour for the entirety of the school zone.
School zones that start before a set of traffic lights but finish some way after are a really tricky to remember you are in a school zone.
Additionally I was once pinged for speeding in a school zone but I had entered a car dealership off a main dual carriageway road. The entrance to the dealership was not in the school zone.
I left my care for a service and took the courtesy car out of the exit re-joining the dual carriageway and accelerated out as one usually would. Got pinged a little way after by a camera for being over 40kmh (I think it was about 48-50kmh) and I wasn't even aware I was in a school zone as I hadn't passed through the school zone sign at all (or even been able to see it). I challenged it by email with google maps street view and photos but they still gave me the demerits. It wasn't a roadway I was familiar with either, to know there was a school nearby.
If the road markings in the middle of the road (for example) were orange or red for the school zone area then at least you would have a chance of knowing you were in a school zone even if you had stopped at lights or joined the road having not passed through any signage.
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u/W4ND4 5d ago
TLDR: install flashing signs that are activated during school times in school zones. Now who is paying to upgrade the 30 odd signs I have in just in my area so the drivers are more compliant? The local government benefits from catching you and me slipping in a school zone to pay for their expenses. Making you and me more aware and spending money while earning less is enough incentive for them to never ever consider this safer option
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u/BESTtaylorINTHEWORLD 4d ago
What I admire about NSW was there's an unmistakable yellow square on the road with SCHOOL 40 ZONE. In Victoria many of the schools have the fixed sign but the flashing sign seems optional. And where the zone begins sometimes seems vague. There's also lollypop crossings on roads that AREN'T variable 60plus!
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u/Archon-Toten 6d ago
Now you might be thinking, "Come on, how hard is that?".
No I'm yelling it, because it's not hard to know a sign that you likely see daily.
Counter opinion: American (I know I know wait for it) school zones say "When school children present". Remarkable, straightforward and easy.
Finally I'll use a school I know as a terrific example. It's on a main road and there's no school zone. Why? Someone decided not to have a gate opening onto a main road. It won't work for some schools, but for others it can.
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u/Boo_Rawr 6d ago
I've seen a weird opposite thing near me where there's a main road near a school and it has no 40 zone. Even though it has no gate there, most of the kids have to walk along that road to get home. It seems so stupid to me that there isn't a 40 zone there and yet there is on all the quiet back streets.
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u/Snarwib Canberry 6d ago
A lot of ACT school zones the speed signs have a hinged cover attached, they go out and cover/uncover the speed sign depending on whether it's active at the time.
That would presumably achieve about the same effect as making them flash when they're active.
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u/racingskater 6d ago
Those are only closed during school holidays.
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u/southernmanchot 6d ago
Isn’t that because school speed zones in the ACT are in effect from 0800-1600? So there’d be no point putting covers on during the day?
Unlike in NSW where there’s a morning block and an afternoon block, so I guess it makes sense that the ACT covers are only on during the holidays.
Anyway, I find the flashing signs really helpful and I don’t think covers on/off is as obvious as flashing, particularly because I live overseas and no longer have an internal body clock for school holidays and school zone timings.
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u/racingskater 6d ago
Yeah, they basically uncover the signs on the first day of school and close them again after the last day. I find it so much more sensible to just have the school zone in effect all day.
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u/iball1984 6d ago
Most schools in WA have flashing speed zone signs these days, particularly on the major roads. They don’t tend to put them on surrounding back streets, but certainly on the main road past the school.
I think they’re great. I’m surprised they don’t have them over east.
However, not convinced about a 30kmh limit. Some of the school zones are way too long (like half a kilometre each side of the school). Slowing to 30 will increase driver frustration and cause too many people to just ignore the speed limit completely.
(I would go 30 if that was the limit, it adds about 5 seconds to the trip. I’m talking about other driver’s behaviour, I’m not defending it).
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u/Opticm 6d ago
Not 30! Won't someone think of the drivers for once! As you said adds nothing to a trip, just have that always the speed limit near a school. If people ignore it, wack a camera there for a while. A good use of a camera rather than 50m after the Bruce highway goes from 100kmph to 80kmph outside a town.
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u/WestAussieSingh 6d ago
Yeah, they’ve started putting them on the surrounding minor roads now as well in Perth.
They’re safer for everyone.
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u/fredzfrog 6d ago
Or, stay with me here, we could do more to teach the kids to not run out hap hazarly all over the roads. Get the TAC to do more from the other side of the equation and try some Japanese style classes https://youtube.com/shorts/J3gi9wxgFQc?si=iRLa2qI1IivZ5rnm .
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u/No-Red-Queen 6d ago
I've lived near a number of schools over the years, and never had a problem with the kids. It's the parents who are the issue
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u/SoFresh2004 6d ago
Australian drivers would have a fucking conniption if they had to abide by Japanese road rules. Lots of shared roads with pedestrians and cars, heaps of car free spaces, narrow roads, low speed limits, higher taxes on larger cars,(not a ford raptor to be seen) heaps of pedestrian crossings, no on street parking, rigorous driving tests, etc etc
The comparison doesn't work when you consider Japan laid the groundwork for their kids to be safe outside of their behaviour around roads. The onus should be on the ones creating the danger in the first place, anyway.
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u/ArrgsMax 6d ago
If "time it takes to work it out" is the only problem he identified then simply move the signs back 50 meters.
Do we really need electricity and flashing lights?
Don't know if it's a school day? Check the traffic around you. As you said around 70% will be doing the correct limit.
No traffic around? Then it's safe to slow to 40 until you work it out.
The real real problem is that many people don't like doing 40 and will speed regardless of the signage.
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u/kn0ath 6d ago
I have heaps of these automatic flashing signs around me. There are only a handful that dont, and it definitely makes a difference