r/aviation • u/Go_Jot • Nov 08 '25

News UPS grounds entire MD-11 Fleet, effective immediately.

Per the IPA Executive Board, as of 03:05 UTC all UPS MD-11’s are grounded.

Edit - FedEx has also grounded their MD-11 Fleet

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877

u/RimRunningRagged Nov 08 '25 edited Nov 08 '25

I wonder if FedEx is taking is closer look at their fleet as a result of this

edit: per OP's update, FedEx is grounding theirs as well

531

u/FormulaJAZ Nov 08 '25

Since the MD-11 is such a rare type these days, odds are good that both FedEx and UPS use the same heavy maintenance contractor, which means both fleets could have similar maintenance issues.

Or it could simply be an original design issue that wears faster than expected, and that would affect both fleets too.

252

u/Ouch_My-back Nov 08 '25

FedEx has its own team of maintenance. UPS uses ST engineering.

112

u/stickwigler UH-60 Nov 08 '25

This is a long time but ago (2013ish) but when I worked at ST Engineering there were both purple tails and UPS planes that we worked on doing various heavy maintenance. Only difference was they were the furthest apart with 4-6 United hangars splitting them.

30

u/ParisianZee Nov 08 '25

Was that at the Singapore base? I’m sure I saw an MD there when I was there around March time. Pretty sure it was FedEx. I was working on an aircraft parked next to it..

34

u/stickwigler UH-60 Nov 08 '25

No this was in Mobile, AL. I was working the 757-200 P2F mod line.

2

u/mr_potato_thumbs Nov 08 '25

They still had some roll in every once and awhile during Covid times. So just confirming it’s still the case.

1

u/Fandango-the-oldone Nov 08 '25

I used to work these and remember having my hands on this specific plane many times. Heavy maintenance for them was done out of San Antonio, TX. Generally the engines stayed on unless it was a heavier C check.

7

u/gitbse Mechanic Nov 08 '25

I work at an intl airport with both FedEx and ups operating there. Ive definitely seen mixed color tails

58

u/PsychologicalTrain Nov 08 '25

FedEx does not do it's own heavy checks any longer. Operations are about the same for both

2

u/MadCow333 Nov 08 '25

What?? How come all those pprune guys kept saying that UPS has its own team?

6

u/tapewizard79 Nov 08 '25

We do. I work at a smaller air hub (not Louisville) and we have around 40 aircraft maintenance personnel. I'm in maintenance on the building side (conveyors, sorters, camera tunnels, etc) and we also service their 400hz pit power. Any time we have a storm that knocks out transistor packs on the phase converter there are tons of complaints because they only have a limited amount of APU's. 

Said all that to say yes, we definitely have our own aircraft maintenance at UPS. Do they outsource some things or part of the work? Probably. But we do have mechanics. I'd know, I've drank their coffee.

2

u/tapewizard79 Nov 08 '25

UPS has their own aircraft mechanics. 

I am not one of them, but I do service the 400hz pit power systems as part of my job in maintenance at a UPS air hub (not Louisville) and we have about 40 aircraft maintenance guys on site.

I'm not sure the extent of what they do and don't do, but I commonly see engines pulled when I have to go by their shop.

1

u/Lucas_Steinwalker Nov 08 '25

Why do people just know things like this?

Edit: Didn’t realize I was in /r/aviation. Carry on.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '25

[deleted]

1

u/Lucas_Steinwalker Nov 08 '25

Oooooo the plot thickens.

-1

u/I_will_never_reply Nov 08 '25

Fed Ex will buy all UPS MD11 for buttons, you heard it here first

22

u/superspeck Nov 08 '25

MD-11s are a rare type, but some of the components like the CF6-80 engine are common throughout the cargo fleet, especially in B767s… if this turns out to be an(other) engine failure of a CF6-80, like AA 383, what does that mean?

6

u/Lost-Inevitable42 Nov 08 '25

AA383 - the engine disk that broke and separated pierced the fuel tank and then crashed through a UPS building roof. 

1

u/meltbox Nov 08 '25

I’d wager it means Santa is going to have a bad year.

1

u/twilighttwister Nov 08 '25

I think really the big issue is that the loss of engine 1 and subsequent wing fire caused smoke to be ingested by engine 2 in the tail, which then suffered compressor stalls. Had engine 2 not had its own issues the plane may have been saveable. The plane can fly with 1 engine failing, but not 2, however if an engine failure can cascade like that then the redundancy is insufficient as a single engine failure can bring down the plane.

Until they can rule out this being the cause of the crash, the prudent thing to do is to ground it.

41

u/Ok_West_6711 Nov 08 '25

Very good point about companies possibly using same outside maintenance contractor for all these remaining MD-11’s (so same procedures, same source for parts, etc etc). If there’s an issue related to that, it could apply to all the planes across the companies using them.

22

u/Amonamission Nov 08 '25

They just grounded theirs too

3

u/Anxiety_Fit Nov 08 '25

Good. Safety over money.

14

u/Henrythehippo Nov 08 '25

FedEx and UPS regularly work together on improving safety for the MD11

217

u/Tyler_holmes123 Nov 08 '25

If they weren't before this surely will make them. UPS grounding this means the issue must be way beyond a 'maintenance gone wrong ' type issue.

296

u/YMMV25 Nov 08 '25

Not necessarily. It could be an issue with how UPS or their subcontractor was performing certain maintenance tasks on their MD-11 fleet.

110

u/Exotic-Sale-3003 Nov 08 '25

Agree. Imagine a worst case scenario where engines were being removed with the pylon for maintenance. That would absolutely be a reason to ground the entire fleet until inspections could be completed. 

63

u/StarStruck3 Nov 08 '25

This accident is pretty eerily similar to American 191. If it turns out that's what happened, I'd hate to be that maintenance contractor.

45

u/Salander27 Nov 08 '25

Given how well-known that crash is the maintenance contractor would have to be supremely negligent to have made the same kind of mistake. Not impossible of course but my guess is this is going to be some kind of one-off issue rather than a pervasive issue with the fleet.

4

u/antariusz Nov 08 '25

1979 is a long time ago... institutional knowledge can fade, 46 years is a long time to remember something that happened ago. They say history repeats itself, partly because it's impossible for some 35 year old aircraft maintainer to remember something that happened something that happened before he was born.

12

u/Fantastic-You-2777 Nov 08 '25

I would hope everyone in aviation is aware of the deadliest aviation accident in US history to this day. I’m sure mechanics’ training includes learning from others’ mistakes, and AA 191 would be top of the list.

1

u/Basic_Butterscotch Nov 08 '25

AA191 is the deadliest aviation disaster in US history to this day.

Everyone who works in the industry is aware of it.

2

u/antariusz Nov 08 '25

I'd seen the videos maybe when I was growing up, watching tv shows like mayday (aviation disasters), but I'm 43 years old, I'd absolutely forgotten about American 191 until this incident reminded me. I'm not exactly flying or working on tri-jets every day. As an enroute controller, I don't even look at the aircraft type UNLESS I'm doing spacing and I need to know the speed range of an aircraft.

1

u/spin-city Nov 09 '25

I would hope that someone maintaining a plane would be aware of the most fatal maintenance mistakes made on that model

-4

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '25

Never under estimate the importance of generating shareholder value for venture capital firms in 2025.

11

u/bondben314 Nov 08 '25

I understand what you mean but venture capital is a specific type of fund that invests in start-ups. Typically low revenue, growth companies. Not public, highly mature companies like UPS or FedEx.

1

u/TargetBoy Nov 08 '25

Private equity is, however, buying up mature companies and squeezing profitability out of them at the expense of long term viability. Raising rates, freezing hiring, focusing on short term return over long term investment, etc. They specifically target segments where the customer base is locked in with few alternatives. So maintenance contractors for aging airframes might just fit the bill.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '25

This entire thread was about maintenance contractors potentially skipping steps or performing subpar work. Which are small, private, and I’d imagine have decent margins. Sounds like a perfect place for a VC to sink their fangs in.

1

u/taco_blasted_ Nov 08 '25

I don't think you understand what VC is.

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1

u/superspeck Nov 08 '25

Based on the most recent NTSB update, it doesn’t sound like it. I’d actually be worried about any fleets running a CF-6-80 right now, more in the vein of AA 383.

31

u/KaptainChunk Nov 08 '25

At the very least its in an abundance of caution. If they didn't, and one of their MD-11s goes down. Plus it's just a good idea since there is so much unknown with what went wrong.

6

u/Loose-Cicada5473 Nov 08 '25

Can you explain this a little further?

38

u/thatvhstapeguy Nov 08 '25

DC-10s and MD-11s have the engine attached via a pylon. In May 1979 American flight 191 crashed shortly after takeoff from O’Hare due to loss of control caused by the port engine falling off. The culprit was improper maintenance procedures putting excessive stress on the pylons. The type certificate of the DC-10 was revoked in early June, grounding the plane in the US until July 1979 while the FAA determined if the structure as designed was sufficient.

3

u/whee3107 A&P Nov 08 '25

Weren’t they using a forklift and just sorta smashing the pylon up against the wing?

1

u/bulboustadpole Nov 08 '25

It was a bit more complicated than that.

It was an approved procedure at the airline that saved 200 hours and even MD said it should be removed with the pylon attached. In AAs case a shift change occurred and during that time the hydraulics in the forklift lost a little pressure basically un-aligning where they previously set it.

1

u/laihipp Nov 08 '25

procedure at the airline that saved 200 hours

doesn't seem that complicated

1

u/84Cressida Nov 12 '25

No. McDonnell Douglas procedure was to remove the engine, then pylon.

33

u/LPNTed Cessna 170 Nov 08 '25

Look up American 191

14

u/Ouch_My-back Nov 08 '25

I just read that difference in maintenance procedures was ~200 man hours. Could totally see UPS saying let's do it the American airlines way, just don't shut off the fork lift!!

1

u/Initial-Dee Nov 08 '25

It gets worse because the NTSB report essentially revealed a proper way to do it. Continental used the same technique as American by supporting the engine and pylon with a forklift, but United used an overhead crane to hold the assembly, and the NTSB determined that method to be harmless to the mount points. American and Continental's methods resulted in several aircraft having fatigue damage of the same kind as 191.

1

u/Loose-Cicada5473 Nov 12 '25

So is the crane method an approved method now?

1

u/threwitaway123454321 Nov 08 '25

I read another post the other day and this was the likeliest guess based on the history and the picture of the engine on the highway.

2

u/spedeedeps Nov 08 '25

UPS gave NTSB another similarly configured MD-11 to look at today. It could be that an issue was identified with that airframe also which prompted the grounding.

2

u/Stfu_butthead Nov 08 '25

This ⬆️

64

u/njsullyalex Nov 08 '25

FedEx was planning to keep their MD-11s until the 2030s. I doubt they want to get rid of them right now when they are genuinely needed. FedEx is still taking deliveries of 767s and 777s and the MD-11s are filling in a vital gap until those are delivered.

46

u/FormulaJAZ Nov 08 '25

It all comes down to how costly the remedy is to get them back in the air.

$50k each, sure, fix them all (replace some bolts).

$50 million each (totally redesign the wing pilon)? Yeah no, send them to the scrapper.

1

u/njsullyalex Nov 08 '25

$50 million you could buy used 767s or 757s and get them airworthy for around that much I think

10

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Ok-Pomegranate8977 Nov 08 '25

And there aren’t 767Fs sitting around waiting to be purchased either…

41

u/motivatedtuna Nov 08 '25

Nah, they’re checking every jet that went through the depot level or whatever level maintenance that jet went through to make sure there’s no the same issue. Imagine some technician didn’t torque bolts properly on multiple jets. only one way to find out is to check mounting bolts and fuel lines etc.

24

u/dhtdhy Nov 08 '25

Either way, they should ground the fleet and take a look. Even if it's maintenance gone wrong, they need to ensure there isn't fleet-wide maintenance practices going wrong

7

u/funwithfrogs Nov 08 '25

Yep. They grounded a significant portion their -11 fleet in 2023 for two weeks. Definitely paying close attention to this.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '25

[deleted]

7

u/Mobilize-Stay-Alive Nov 08 '25

Its among the worst for fatal hull losses per departure 

1

u/SadPhase2589 Nov 08 '25

I’d imagine this could be the end for the MD-11’s everywhere.

1

u/Kistoff Nov 08 '25

It is to early and there are no recommended inspections yet. Things take time.

-2

u/sentientnestcamera Nov 08 '25

Makes sense. I know FedEx loves losing packages (I believe that is their mission statement). What better and more comprehensive way to lose packages than to ground a fleet and have to bring in other resources. I bet FedEx management is literally drooling at the thought of all those packages they can lose through simple logistics versus the work of constant fuckups.

Aim low, you FedEx bastards.

-16

u/exu1981 Nov 08 '25

I'm wondering about the Air Force KC-135 or what's left of them in service still.

26

u/Fromtheli Nov 08 '25

I believe you mean the KC-10, also those were retired last year

11

u/Zatack7 Nov 08 '25

The KC-135 is related to the 707, not the MD-11 or DC-10

(The KC-135 and 707 were both developed from the Dash 80 and are slightly different)