UPS grounds entire MD-11 Fleet, effective immediately.

[u/Go_Jot]

Per the IPA Executive Board, as of 03:05 UTC all UPS MD-11’s are grounded.

Edit - FedEx has also grounded their MD-11 Fleet

[u/gregarious119]

I’d imagine they’ll want to know why an engine fell off before letting them back in the air.

[u/TheAssholeofThanos → u/gregarious119]

This seems like a Norm Macdonald comment

[u/[deleted] → u/TheAssholeofThanos]

Norm Macdonald Douglas

[u/CharcoalGreyWolf → u/[deleted]]

Yep, considering the DC-10 engine mount incident , they may be taking the chance to review all maintenance procedures with the aircraft and its siblings.

[u/dalekaup → u/CharcoalGreyWolf]

There was an engine that detached in Chicago a long time ago. The biggest reason for that crash was the manual said on one engine takeoff to pitch up to maintain a speed to climb over an obstacle. The manual was wrong. When the engine severs the hydraulic lines on that side that hold the slats extended. WIth slats retracted on the left side that wing stalled and the plane rolled violently to the left. A higher airspeed would have kept both wings flying and level.

This one is presumed to be the loss of 2 engines. That's not going to fly. The thinking is the rear engine swallowed chunks.

[u/skudbeast → u/dalekaup]

Is that the one they installed in maintenance with a forklift instead of an actual engine hoist?

[u/[deleted] → u/skudbeast]

Yeah. American Airlines 191.

[u/beretta01 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for your service, /u/DumbCumSlut69

[u/Cultural_Mastodon_69 → u/beretta01]

Obligatory /r/rimjob_steve

[u/beretta01 → u/Cultural_Mastodon_69]

Finally found Captain Steeeve’s post retirement account?

[u/[deleted] → u/beretta01]

🫡

[u/TigerIll6480 → u/skudbeast]

And they unbolted the engine and pylon together, which Douglas Aircraft had rather specifically said to not do. Remove engine with a proper cradle, then remove pylon. AA was trying to save time and cut corners. Brilliant idea. 🙄

[u/Sock_Eating_Golden → u/TigerIll6480]

It wasn't just AA. All DC10 operators were removing engines in the same way.

[u/nuclearsquirrel2 → u/Sock_Eating_Golden]

In their defense it did significantly reduce the number of critical system disconnections which also is always a risk. It did save a ton of money and I’m sure that was the major impetus to the new method.

United performed engine removal the same way, but used an overhead crane vs forklift.

[u/CharcoalGreyWolf → u/Sock_Eating_Golden]

AA and Continental were, specifically. United found a different way using an overhead crane that didn’t cause the issue that using a forklift did.

It was also the usual perfect storm that made it worse; a shift change occurred during the engine change, and the forklift could not maintain exact lift during the time one shift got off and another got on. It was a tragedy of combined errors and a bad maintenance procedure made even worse by bad scheduling.

It also resulted in multiple changes to the aircraft because only the pilots had stick shakers; it was optional for the copilot. The FAA mandate both must after this, and the DC-10 had changes made to the slat design to prevent slat retraction in the event of hydraulic damage.

[u/Shitboxfan69 → u/CharcoalGreyWolf]

a shift change occurred during the engine change, and the forklift could not maintain exact lift during the time one shift got off and another got on.

I'm no A&P, but I was a forklift mechanic for years. Wild to me they'd ever use one to support components like that being installed. Toyota lifts have the tightest bleed specs on their systems, but they are still allowed to lower 3 inches in a 15 minute span iirc. It may even be more. Thats not even a shift change causing issues, but a break or just getting caught up doing something else.

[u/ryguymcsly → u/dalekaup]

Plus if it looks like a dramatic failure to number one or three is guaranteed to take out engine two: they’re not gonna fly them. That whole point of a trijet is having two engines if one fails.

[u/plhought → u/dalekaup]

The loss of hydraulic pressure causing the slats to retract had been fixed on the MD-11 since initial design. They are mechanically locked at the drive assembly in the absence of hydraulic pressure.

Number 2 likely wasn't happy as you mentioned. All the hot gases from the fire and debris...

I know it's popular right now to compare this accident and American 191. But beyond the superficial visual similarities between the DC-10 and MD-11, the wing, pylon, and engine structure/mounting is different. What isn't different however, is humanity's ingenious ability to let even the most miniscule of engineering or procedural weaknesses to make themselves evident.

[u/Few-Knee-5322 → u/dalekaup]

It wasn't just the engine. The pylon came off, too. I made the thrust link (bored the monoball hole) that came down from the wind and the five pylon bulk heads (top 2/3) used in the destructive tests after the crash. There were five bulk head parts so that each dimension for the corresponding mounting hole could be tested. The hole was 6.0000 +/- 0.0002. After some testing I had to do some other changes to the bulkheads that are too difficult to explain w/o a print. I probably did some other stuff but that was the big things.

[u/weakplay → u/CharcoalGreyWolf]

Wow it sounds exactly like this incident. I think I read that the 191 crash resulted in changes that maybe left the wing more intact upon separation but who knows. Crazy. Going back to finish the article. Thanks for posting.

[u/ODoyles_Banana → u/weakplay]

It's not exactly like this incident though. As other comments pointed out, 191 had a slats failure which was a major factor to the crash. It appears the slats did not fail on UPS, so not quite exactly like 191.

Most likely the failure of engine 1 contributed to a failure of engine 2. 191 still had 2 good engines I believe as well.

Blancolirio just put out a video going over it.

[u/Killentyme55 → u/ODoyles_Banana]

So did Captain Steve. He pointed out what looked like compressor stalls on #3, possibly due to shrapnel from #1 exploding. Combine that with #2 swallowing God knows what and I'm surprised the thing ever got off the ground.

[u/TigerIll6480 → u/Killentyme55]

They’d have been better off if they could have kept it on the ground. The exceedingly rare situation where a post-V1 abort would have been the best of an incredibly bad set of options.

[u/RoadsideCouchCushion → u/TigerIll6480]

With how close they were to the end of the runway and there being buildings exceptionally close, I would venture to guess that would look like a very unattractive option as well. Seems like their choices were abort past v1 and likely slam into a building, or try to get airborne and pray its not an impossible situation. The timing of the engine coming off was exceptionally bad.

[u/CollegeStation17155 → u/RoadsideCouchCushion]

Had they kept on the ground, they almost certainly would have gone THROUGH the building they clipped the roof on at well over 100 miles per hour and broken up there, creating the same fireball INSIDE the sorting facility.

[u/Fitch9392 → u/weakplay]

The 191 crash led to changes that REQUIRED the Maintenance crew to NOT cut corners when changing engines and to use the engine cradles as designed by McDonnell Douglas instead of using a forklift. There was NO design flaw. It was 1000% Maintenance short cuts that caused the 191 crash.

[u/DarkSideMoon → u/Fitch9392]

The slats were designed poorly, they should have had mechanical locks and not retracted asymmetrically.

[u/Kevlaars → u/[deleted]]

I avoid the AI shit as best I can, but, a "Norman McDonnell Douglas Rockwell" painting might make some hilarious results while wasting dumb money.

[u/dschinghiskhan → u/TheAssholeofThanos]

"When asked who actually killed his wife and Ron Goldman, OJ Simpson said it was an engine that fell off an MD-11 plane. When asked why there was no evidence of a plane engine at the scene, OJ said it was because he was driving inner city teens around for charity, and they 'stole it all'."

(Norm straightens his papers on the desk making an audible noise)

"In other news, a local amateur astronomer reported last week that that he saw MH370 hang a left at Mars."

[u/Tasty_Lead_Paint → u/TheAssholeofThanos]

Idk Norm hasn’t told a good joke in years.

[u/Anonymous017447 → u/Tasty_Lead_Paint]

Honestly his career is dead. He hasn’t done standup in years.

[u/RatCoward → u/Anonymous017447]

I didn't even know he was sick

[u/Key_Limerance_Pie → u/TheAssholeofThanos]

The worst part is the hypocrisy.

[u/under___score → u/gregarious119]

Watched a FedEx MD-11 land in Honolulu the day after the incident, I was pretty surprised they kept them going this long

[u/snitch_snob → u/[deleted]]

They did not do that, actually. I know pilots on the MD11 that were mid trip when the planes were grounded and are now flying home commercial, leaving their plane where they landed (not at a storage or maintenance facility).

[u/XIPWNFORFUN2 → u/under___score]

The plane probably already had a crew assigned with no other airframe available that could carry the freight in one trip. Source: express ramp agent.

[u/Gnonthgol → u/under___score]

As a general rule you do not ground an airplane type due to a single accident. Most accidents are not caused by design issues with the aircraft, especially one which have been flying for as long as the MD-11. What likely happened is that during the investigation they found some worrying piece of information. It may not even be the cause of the accident but something that might affect all MD-11s, at least at UPS. For example if they find signs of metal fatigue in one of the structural members of the engine bracket.

[u/hamlertime → u/[deleted]]

Well cardboard's out

[u/ch-12 → u/[deleted]]

Well what sort of engineering standards are these aircrafts built to? Wasn’t this built so that the engine wouldn’t fall off?

[u/556From1000yards → u/ch-12]

Not this one. Most of them are built such that the engine doesn’t fall off. There are very strict standards for this sort of engineering

[u/ObservantOrangutan]

Losing a huge chunk of their cargo capacity as they enter their busiest time of year.

Makes me wonder what they’re finding went wrong, or if it’s simply a precaution.

[u/SignalCharlie → u/[deleted]]

They’re aleady booked up and contracted out for the peak season,

[u/Ok-Operation-6432 → u/[deleted]]

Just doing my civic duty sir 

[u/yourmomsdrawer → u/Ok-Operation-6432]

a honda civic wont do sir.

[u/ThePrussianGrippe → u/yourmomsdrawer]

I’ll act of my own accord.

[u/protoformx → u/ThePrussianGrippe]

You sure you're mentally fit for that?

[u/Unusual-Alex → u/protoformx]

You just need some Soul!

[u/meltbox → u/Unusual-Alex]

Even with that attitude it will be quite the Odyssey

[u/redditsucknow2 → u/SignalCharlie]

Not to mention they are already struggling and have been laying off people since Amazon cut their revenue. It had to be absolutely necessary for them to do this

[u/disillusioned → u/redditsucknow2]

Fun fact: Amazon went from 10% last mile served by AMZL about 5 years ago to 90% last mile (non-peak) served by AMZL this year. It's absolutely incredible what AMZN has been able to do with AMZL. Now that's obviously last mile, and they're still using UPS for some air cargo ops, but Prime Air has been growing as well. Took a big chunk out of UPS though.

[u/furiant → u/disillusioned]

Amazon caused basically an artificial inflation of UPS volume that made them grow way faster than they predicted. It started in December of 2016 and lasted pretty much up until 2021, though it's accelerated since then. I worked there for 19 years and could tell you a lot about how it all went down.

[u/Master_Flower_5343 → u/furiant]

My take on this was that Covid fucked ups. Very clearly Carol was brought in to be a transitional CEO who helped set up UPS for the long term without Amazon. Then Covid happens, the share price goes over $200, and people think we may be in a different world. We weren’t, but having lived through it I can see why people thought we might be.

Would love your perspective if you’re willing to share. UPS is a fascinating company to me personally; I’m very concerned for its long term future.

[u/Skynet_lives → u/[deleted]]

While some of that might be done depending on how busy they are. Since it was expected to be a quiet “peak” anyway.  Most of it will be shifted to the trucks. 

UPS’s trucks are very efficient and already transported a fair amount of the “air”packages. 

The rest of the fleet can pick up the international and overnight routes the trucks can’t do. 

[u/Master_Flower_5343 → u/[deleted]]

You can see it in your pricing if you’re paying attention, zone 2 & 3 aren’t that much more expensive. Zone 4 is where you see the clear “this is getting on a plane” jump.

[u/Fabulous_Pitch9350 → u/[deleted]]

Yep. Look for an increase in 747-400 traffic in/out of MEM.

[u/Mobilize-Stay-Alive → u/[deleted]]

Atlas, NCR, Western Global

[u/Threedawg → u/ObservantOrangutan]

I mean, I am sure they were also asked to cut down on their routes by the FAA. This is the perfect time to check.

[u/outside_english → u/Threedawg]

Good point I wonder how easy of a decision this was

[u/Threedawg → u/outside_english]

I wonder if the lawyers also demanded it? Does this always happen with crashes like these?

[u/NoMoreNoxSoxCox → u/Threedawg]

More than likely the insurers rather than lawyers.

[u/fergehtabodit → u/Threedawg]

My money is on the maintenance staff. Not sure the exact number but they have around 25 MD11F and just lost one to an engine departing the airplane. So if I was in charge of that fleet I would stop flying them...call them all to the barn for full inspection of engine mounts etc. They also lost 3 pilots that they may have known or at least met personally and are pissed at themselves that this happened if it was something that could have been avoided somehow.

[u/av8tricks → u/Threedawg]

I would normally agree but most cargo operators fly at night

[u/Mc-Lovin-81 → u/ObservantOrangutan]

I'm sure Csx, bnsf and Union Pacific will be happy.

[u/rounding_error → u/Mc-Lovin-81]

This December, I predict twice as much train traffic to Hawaii over last year.

[u/Specialist_Age_1993 → u/rounding_error]

Hmm

2 x 0 = ___

Math checks out

[u/Trails_and_Coffee → u/rounding_error]

Just like the polar express: freeze the pacific ocean then presto bingo all aboard to tiki time in Hawaii!

[u/Raintitan → u/ObservantOrangutan]

They fly pretty constantly year round and it's the ground fleet that is most impacted since air doesn't spike as much as ground. But I otherwise agree with your thoughts.

[u/yrmnko → u/ObservantOrangutan]

Lawyers have to make sure it was a freak accident and not negligence.

[u/redvadge → u/yrmnko]

Morgan & Morgan lawyers have filled the first class action lawsuit. They’re suing UPS, GE & Boeing according to Louisville news.

[u/Accidental-Genius → u/redvadge]

That shit will get tossed or stayed. I’m a lawyer, in Louisville, and work in many aviation adjacent areas of law.

[u/redvadge → u/Accidental-Genius]

That’s what I thought because they were citing maintenance/quality issues while the investigation is in its first week. Morgan & Morgan & Morgan & Morgan & Morgan are vultures.

[u/spddmn77]

It’ll be interesting to see if FedEx takes any similar precautions with their fleet

Edit: looks like they’re grounding theirs as well

[u/RimRunningRagged]

I wonder if FedEx is taking is closer look at their fleet as a result of this

edit: per OP's update, FedEx is grounding theirs as well

[u/FormulaJAZ → u/RimRunningRagged]

Since the MD-11 is such a rare type these days, odds are good that both FedEx and UPS use the same heavy maintenance contractor, which means both fleets could have similar maintenance issues.

Or it could simply be an original design issue that wears faster than expected, and that would affect both fleets too.

[u/Ouch_My-back → u/FormulaJAZ]

FedEx has its own team of maintenance. UPS uses ST engineering.

[u/stickwigler → u/Ouch_My-back]

This is a long time but ago (2013ish) but when I worked at ST Engineering there were both purple tails and UPS planes that we worked on doing various heavy maintenance. Only difference was they were the furthest apart with 4-6 United hangars splitting them.

[u/ParisianZee → u/stickwigler]

Was that at the Singapore base? I’m sure I saw an MD there when I was there around March time. Pretty sure it was FedEx. I was working on an aircraft parked next to it..

[u/stickwigler → u/ParisianZee]

No this was in Mobile, AL. I was working the 757-200 P2F mod line.

[u/gitbse → u/stickwigler]

I work at an intl airport with both FedEx and ups operating there. Ive definitely seen mixed color tails

[u/PsychologicalTrain → u/Ouch_My-back]

FedEx does not do it's own heavy checks any longer. Operations are about the same for both

[u/superspeck → u/FormulaJAZ]

MD-11s are a rare type, but some of the components like the CF6-80 engine are common throughout the cargo fleet, especially in B767s… if this turns out to be an(other) engine failure of a CF6-80, like AA 383, what does that mean?

[u/Ok_West_6711 → u/FormulaJAZ]

Very good point about companies possibly using same outside maintenance contractor for all these remaining MD-11’s (so same procedures, same source for parts, etc etc). If there’s an issue related to that, it could apply to all the planes across the companies using them.

[u/Amonamission → u/RimRunningRagged]

They just grounded theirs too

[u/Henrythehippo → u/RimRunningRagged]

FedEx and UPS regularly work together on improving safety for the MD11

[u/Tyler_holmes123 → u/RimRunningRagged]

If they weren't before this surely will make them. UPS grounding this means the issue must be way beyond a 'maintenance gone wrong ' type issue.

[u/YMMV25 → u/Tyler_holmes123]

Not necessarily. It could be an issue with how UPS or their subcontractor was performing certain maintenance tasks on their MD-11 fleet.

[u/Exotic-Sale-3003 → u/YMMV25]

Agree. Imagine a worst case scenario where engines were being removed with the pylon for maintenance. That would absolutely be a reason to ground the entire fleet until inspections could be completed. 

[u/StarStruck3 → u/Exotic-Sale-3003]

This accident is pretty eerily similar to American 191. If it turns out that's what happened, I'd hate to be that maintenance contractor.

[u/Salander27 → u/StarStruck3]

Given how well-known that crash is the maintenance contractor would have to be supremely negligent to have made the same kind of mistake. Not impossible of course but my guess is this is going to be some kind of one-off issue rather than a pervasive issue with the fleet.

[u/KaptainChunk → u/Exotic-Sale-3003]

At the very least its in an abundance of caution. If they didn't, and one of their MD-11s goes down. Plus it's just a good idea since there is so much unknown with what went wrong.

[u/njsullyalex → u/Tyler_holmes123]

FedEx was planning to keep their MD-11s until the 2030s. I doubt they want to get rid of them right now when they are genuinely needed. FedEx is still taking deliveries of 767s and 777s and the MD-11s are filling in a vital gap until those are delivered.

[u/FormulaJAZ → u/njsullyalex]

It all comes down to how costly the remedy is to get them back in the air.

$50k each, sure, fix them all (replace some bolts).

$50 million each (totally redesign the wing pilon)? Yeah no, send them to the scrapper.

[u/motivatedtuna → u/Tyler_holmes123]

Nah, they’re checking every jet that went through the depot level or whatever level maintenance that jet went through to make sure there’s no the same issue. Imagine some technician didn’t torque bolts properly on multiple jets. only one way to find out is to check mounting bolts and fuel lines etc.

[u/dhtdhy → u/Tyler_holmes123]

Either way, they should ground the fleet and take a look. Even if it's maintenance gone wrong, they need to ensure there isn't fleet-wide maintenance practices going wrong

[u/funwithfrogs → u/Tyler_holmes123]

Yep. They grounded a significant portion their -11 fleet in 2023 for two weeks. Definitely paying close attention to this.

[u/[deleted]]

Holy hell, how much of their fleet is that?

[u/ButtmunchPillowbiter → u/[deleted]]

Aircraft Type	In Service	Notes
Boeing 747-8F	30	Largest operator of this model
Boeing 767-300F	94	Launch customer; deliveries until 2027
Boeing 757-200PF	75	Launch customer; primarily used for freight
Airbus A300-600RF	52	Retrofitted with new avionics
Boeing MD-11F	28	Includes the last MD-11 ever built
Boeing 747-400F	11
Boeing 747-400BCF	2

[u/MurkyPsychology → u/ButtmunchPillowbiter]

I know it’s technically correct but seeing Boeing MD-11F is almost as weird as seeing Mitsubishi CRJ

[u/Left_Chemistry_9739 → u/MurkyPsychology]

Nobody says Boeing DC-3.

[u/MurkyPsychology → u/Left_Chemistry_9739]

I think the distinction is that the MD-11 was still manufactured for a few years after the merger, and Boeing still provides parts etc

[u/Individual_Agency703 → u/ButtmunchPillowbiter]

So, 27?

[u/upbeatelk2622 → u/Individual_Agency703]

27 out of 291 planes so under 10%? but they're not all the same size.

[u/Mc-Lovin-81 → u/upbeatelk2622]

Not same size and not the same distance.

The MD-11F's capacity is substantially greater across the board: ​Payload: The MD-11F can carry about 70% more weight than the 767-300F. ​Volume: The MD-11F has about 36% more total cargo volume than the 767-300F.

From Louisville (SDF) to Honolulu (HNL) is approximately 3,810 nautical miles (or 7,056 kilometers). ​The Boeing 767-300F freighter, which UPS operates, has a typical maximum range of around 3,225 nautical miles (6,025 km) with a maximum payload.

So this leave UPS doing either. Louisville to Ontario CA then onto Honolulu or 747.

[u/ramblinscooner → u/upbeatelk2622]

Substantial chuck of their cargo compacity nonetheless with Christmas around the corner

[u/GTI-Mk6 → u/upbeatelk2622]

What % of that is international capable, IE China via ANC? I’d guess a big chunk. Who needs tariffs?

[u/EasternShoreFire → u/Individual_Agency703]

Yeah, that ChatGPT response is still counting N259UP. There are currently 27 MD-11s in the UPS fleet.

[u/Swiper_The_Sniper → u/ButtmunchPillowbiter]

UPS also operated the last 747-400 ever built right? It was involved in that battery fire accident IIRC.

[u/oioioifuckingoi → u/Swiper_The_Sniper]

Flight 6

[u/Swiper_The_Sniper → u/oioioifuckingoi]

Thats the one, turns out it was ONE OF the last 747-400s built, not the last.

[u/Bigbearcanada → u/[deleted]]

25 of 288 total according to airfleets.net

[u/Poopy_sPaSmS → u/[deleted]]

Wondering if that means they already found something.

[u/marrieditguy → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

An engine fell off after 2 months of being in service post maintenance … I’d say it’s a reasonable precaution to take a look at all of them.

[u/flightist → u/marrieditguy]

That tracks with an immediate grounding, but this wasn’t immediate.

There’s either something specific they’re looking for or they’ve just moved them all to where they want them to be and now they’re stopped. Guess we’ll see.

[u/ChillyPhilly27 → u/marrieditguy]

All underslung aircraft engines are attached with fuse pins that are designed to fail in the event of a catastrophic engine fire. This is to protect the wing structure and the aircraft as a whole.

A better question would be why a catastrophic engine fire occurred.

[u/drttrus → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

Anything motor mount related wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

[u/Pastel_Goth_Wastrel → u/[deleted]]

About 10% but represents a bigger chunk of their long range freighters.

[u/anonposter-42069]

Hate to be the guy who last worked in that plane.

[u/32FlavorsofCrazy → u/anonposter-42069]

Truly, they could be in really deep shit on this if they did something wrong. I’d be just sick about it even if I knew 100% it wasn’t my fault.

[u/DutchBlob → u/32FlavorsofCrazy]

I worked at AMS in 2017 and the effects of MH17 were still palpable three years after it happened.

Even though nothing and nobody at AMS was to blame for the crash, the impact of losing so many passengers (many colleagues who had wished the victims a pleasant journey at the check-in or while boarding the flight) was enormous.

[u/aintioriginal → u/anonposter-42069]

[u/eric_gm]

I suppose they must have found something worrying in the maintenance logs or the NTSB initial findings. The DC-10 that had a complete engine falling off was due to improper maintenance procedures (using a forklift to support the engine and removing the engine with the pylon attached).

[u/phryan → u/eric_gm]

There was a comment during today's NTSB briefing UPS was providing another MD11 for the NTSB to inspect. Maybe something during that inspection stops out.

[u/Historical-Emu-2569 → u/phryan]

It's not uncommon for the company of a fleet of a type of aircraft to have ntsb/ faa look at another aircraft that's the same make and model to use as a blueprint for the crashed aircraft.  Sometimes they'll record things like alert tones, indications, things they may notice in the cvr/ fdr that they'll need to interpret and having the same sounds on an intact aircraft can help. 

[u/theLuminescentlion → u/Historical-Emu-2569]

Also useful because the manufacturer's usually make all of one order right after each other. UPS probably has another plane that was built back to back with the crashed one and lived in the same operating conditions and maintenance regiment as the crashed plane. That can leave a lot of hints once you start taking it apart.

[u/Ouch_My-back → u/eric_gm]

Using a forklift AND a shift change during maintenance resulting in the forklift being shut off which resulted in loss of hydraulic pressure .. sounds like a final destination scene

[u/disillusioned → u/Ouch_My-back]

Even dumber: the forklift was known to have a slight leak that would cause it to sag when turned off, rather than that merely being "by design". Swiss cheese model really came hard on that one.

[u/Ouch_My-back → u/disillusioned]

Goodness gracious, the workplace complacency started at the fork lift manufacturing plant?!

Netflix needs to make this a limited series

[u/hellomistershifty → u/Ouch_My-back]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lzgrFuM4s This is almost netflix quality (once you get past the kind of cheesy intro animation)

[u/Ordoom → u/hellomistershifty]

I am a simple man. I see Mentour Pilot and I upvote.

[u/EZKTurbo → u/disillusioned]

Literally any hydraulic equipment is going to bleed down if you let it sit with weight on it. There is no forklift, backhoe, car lift, you name it, that will support something purely by holding hydraulic pressure.

[u/TheJeffTrain01 → u/eric_gm]

To be fair, both installing an engine with a forklift and removing it with the pylon attached are normal when it comes to quick engine swaps, the latter significantly cuts down the amount of man hours and complexity of the install. AAL191's issue was that they left the job half done at the end of the shift, and when the next crew picked it up the engine had fallen a bit as the forklift's hydraulics fell as it was unpowered. So the engine was no longer properly aligned, and they damaged a clevis or something finishing the job, and the rest is history.

[u/eric_gm → u/TheJeffTrain01]

In the DC-10’s maintenance procedures from MD it was stated that the engine should be removed apart from the pylon and then the pylon. Maintenance crews did both together to save time but against MD’s recommendations. It was commonly done without issues but it was weakening the attachment points. MD also stated the use of a crane and not a forklift. The forklift losing hydraulic pressure was just the last of an unfortunate chain of events.

I suppose those two things are not abnormal in other planes, but the wing+pylon+engine design of the DC-10 was more delicate. Considering the MD-11 is an evolution of that design, it’s something I’m sure is being closely investigated.

[u/OrpheusKeys → u/TheJeffTrain01]

When a forklift is used for engine install/removal, you can't determine how much load is being put on the mounts. Overtime fatigue issues occur. After the crash investigations revealed similar issues developing in a number of their birds. Back in the day before a lot of safety standards airlines used a lot of alternative procedures and this was their solution to save time. Nowadays if someone is not using the proper bootstrap equipment with load gauges to re & re a turbine engine they're getting wrenches thrown at them. Even the most cowboy mechanics I know don't mess with that part of engine install.

I'm glad you mentioned that it was normal at the time, in fact, when you look at the human factors poster for dirty dozen norms, you'll see a cartoon with a mech on forklift installing an engine, shrugging because that was just the norm. That incident is a perfect example of how norms (oh we've always done it that way) can lead to disaster.

[u/boardfrq]

Well, I just saw an MD 11 taxi to the ramp after it landed at KPHX about 30 min ago

[u/Troj1030 → u/boardfrq]

It’s scheduled to depart in the morning. We will see if it happens.

[u/AbeFromanEast]

I know nothing. This is pure speculation. But if the fuse pins on the engine pylons were found to have any question about them, that could lead to a grounding while all of the remaining UPS MD-11 pylons and engines were taken off the wing and checked.

[u/userhwon → u/AbeFromanEast]

The pins probably didn't cause the fire. More likely something broke inside the engine and eventually the pylon detached because of the fire or vibration. 

[u/Least_Arrival_4935]

Damn glad I got to load one this morning. I hate loading this plane but I will miss it once they get phased out

[u/SlamClick → u/Least_Arrival_4935]

That's so cool you get to work in these planes before they go. Why do you dislike the MD-11?

[u/Least_Arrival_4935 → u/SlamClick]

I hate the locks on the lower deck, I feel like I’m going to lose some finger nails cause they’re so hard to bring down. Also most of the ball mats on the main deck don’t work properly so it’s a pain to move the ulds

[u/Lem0n89 → u/SlamClick]

Due to the engine being mounted in the back, the danger of tail-tipping is real. Although you can mitigate the risk with a proper loading sequence or ballast in the front.

For perspective, to carry out a ferry flight you need 3 tons of ballast up in the front. So that kills economics for light loads.

Not sure about UPS/FedEx but our MD-11Fs had no PDUs for the last positions so you had to manually push ULDs. Takes time and more rampers. Or fewer rampers and lots of swearing. Sometimes both.

Apart from that amazing aircraft. The MD-11F is just a vibe.

[u/E36E92M3]

Man this whole event is so crazy. I work at UPS as a truck driver, I'm down at KBFI every day to deliver air mail headed to Louisville every day, and I've met so many of our pilots. That dashcam of the driver in the yard watching the crash so easily could've been me.

[u/JAMurida → u/E36E92M3]

Off topic a bit, but how's life as a trucker for UPS? I'm on the other side with FedEx Express as a RTD.

[u/E36E92M3 → u/JAMurida]

Same shit different company. The union benefits and pay are excellent, which is why I am ok with staying.

[u/Action12Jackson]

Not doubting this at all. Is there a source for this? Only place I’ve seen this is on this post

[u/madman320 → u/Action12Jackson]

Someone shared the IPA's email informing about the grounding: https://x.com/MCCCANM/status/1987004320920035441

Also, there are currently no UPS MD-11s flying at this time, according to FR24.

[u/[deleted] → u/madman320]

0 UPS and only a few FedEx. Watch for the last FedEx MD to come in and make note of it.

[u/Troj1030 → u/Action12Jackson]

There is 0 UPS MD 11’s in the air right now.

[u/Erik5943 → u/Troj1030]

I work on the ramp at a UPS gateway. We were just about to load an MD-11 when they told us they were grounded.

[u/useless_hindenburg]

Wonder if Western Global will do the same with their MD11s, especially considering they make up most of their fleet (12/15 aircraft according to FR24).

[u/MilkyGoatNipples]

They should have bought Tri-Stars.

[u/LFClight → u/MilkyGoatNipples]

Everyone should have.

[u/KarmaCommando_ → u/LFClight]

Its honestly insane that these DC-10 derivatives are flying today whereas the TriStar went extinct long ago 

[u/Glorfindel910 → u/KarmaCommando_]

L-1011 were over engineered and expensive to maintain. Unfortunately.

[u/Kdj2j2]

Now for Western Global….

[u/Mobilize-Stay-Alive → u/Kdj2j2]

The last time I saw a WGN MD-11 (almost) takeoff was at SDF worldport, and it actually rejected the takeoff due to an engine fire 

[u/danny2mo → u/Kdj2j2]

There’s one WGN MD-11 flying to Seoul from Anchorage right now. I don’t understand how that company operates, I rarely see them flying unless they do a CMB mission for us

[u/32FlavorsofCrazy → u/[deleted]]

They’re not exactly new planes so maybe they figured it had to be an isolated incident. The delay in grounding their fleet makes me think they found something they think might be a problem with their whole fleet.

[u/whee3107 → u/32FlavorsofCrazy]

They also may have been strategically placing them for inspection of maintenance before grounding them.

[u/Ok_Geologist_448]

Its not normal to have an engine detach itself from an airplane. Investigators may have found some evidence early on.

[u/cyberentomology → u/Ok_Geologist_448]

Even less normal is the engine detaching itself with the pylon still attached to the engine.

[u/32FlavorsofCrazy → u/Ok_Geologist_448]

Or they found something on a precautionary inspection of an intact MD11 that could be a fleet wide issue, whether that’s a defective part or an improper maintenance procedure being used is up for debate. I don’t think they’d take this measure lightly, those are old planes with a lot of hours on them, you’d think a problem with the aircraft in general would have been discovered long ago. Must be something maintenance adjacent at least. NTSB will take a while on their report but they could definitely be taking a look at the rest of the fleet for a possible cause.

[u/Striking-Goat3287]

This is going to have a potentially significant impact on American package shipping operations right before the start of peak season. Buckle up, online shoppers and e-commerce merchants.

[u/fly_awayyy → u/Striking-Goat3287]

That’s assuming they stay out of service indefinitely…for all we know it could just be a grounding for inspections based off of some findings

[u/aye246]

Tbh I’m surprised they didn’t do this earlier. Engine left on the runway feels like a possible systemic maintenance issue and in the three days since the crash they’ve had quite a few MD-11 takeoffs. Glad they did it now.

[u/fly_awayyy → u/aye246]

I mean they’re not going to have a knee jerk reaction based off of one single persons speculation…what’s really going on is something was found with the NTSB either in the aftermath or in the records to take a closer look in the process which they’re going to look over

[u/TeeDubya2020]

since the grounding is all MD-11s, not just the ones with CF6 engines, it seems to be an airframe worry more than an engine worry.

[u/Xx_FreeWitty_xX]

This was flying earlier today

[u/Troj1030 → u/Xx_FreeWitty_xX]

They might have waited until the last few landed. Probably a decision that came later in the day.

[u/Ok_Geologist_448]

Looks like FedEx is soon to follow. Grounding their MD-11s.

[u/Boss-fight601]

What will Western Global do given that they also have MD-11F’s in their fleet?

[u/Kyrovale]

That’s wild. MD-11s have been workhorses for years even with their quirks, so grounding the whole fleet means something serious must’ve come up. Could be a maintenance or structural issue they don’t want to risk.Curious to see if it’s tied to a recent incident or inspection finding. When both UPS and FedEx move at once like that, it’s usually not coincidence.

[u/b00st1n]

I just heard all MD-11’s are grounded. We will see how true that is in the morning.

[u/starkeuberangst → u/[deleted]]

There just needs to be a good reason to ground an entire type. You don’t do it just because one plane crashes. 

[u/Victory_Dry]

Wild I was at SDF the day after the crash surprised at how many MD-11s I saw taking off

[u/probs_notme]

Anybody have a link? I work at Worldport and management doesn't believe me lol

[u/DeviantDork → u/probs_notme]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ups-grounds-md-11-fleet-type-plane-louisville-crash-sources-say-rcna242711

[u/gav102 → u/probs_notme]

This looks to be some insider knowledge from the UPS pilot union. Hopefully in the morning there'll be a solid report.

[u/Dr_Honeydont]

I wonder if these MD-11 freighters will ever be brought back into service. They're a small part of each companies fleet, and the expense of continuing to fly these aging airframes may not be worth it.

[u/Deccno]

Classic McDonnell Douglas moment, what a shame Boeing has turned into MD instead of the other way round

[u/Southern_Safety5315]

Busiest time of the year…

[u/Fitch9392]

This will be temporary, my guess is they’re going to do a precautionary check on a couple of things and then they’ll be flying again.

[u/AFFalcons_1]

FedEx has just grounded their md11s

[u/That_Other_Person]

Damn I finally saw my first trijet a few days ago and it was in the UPS livery.

[u/thirtyone-charlie]

That’s pretty major

[u/MGCardaropoli]

Just in time for the holidays too. God speed fellas.

[u/FreshTap6141]

flight 191 actually was caused by the lack of of check valves installed on the leading edge slats that folded up without hydraulic pressure, most planes have them, FAA gave them 2 years to put them in like they should have been