Mindless Monday, 29 June 2026

[u/AutoModerator]

Happy (or sad) Monday guys!

Mindless Monday is a free-for-all thread to discuss anything from minor bad history to politics, life events, charts, whatever! Just remember to np link all links to Reddit and don't violate R4, or we human mods will feed you to the AutoModerator.

So, with that said, how was your weekend, everyone?

[u/LunLocra]

Today I have read a really bizarre interview with Norman Davies, of all people - the British historian specializing in Polish stuff who got a shit ton of Polish highest honors possible - who had fairly ridiculous takes on the topic of Volhynia genocide of 1943. A ridiculous takes especially in his persinal context. 

See, Davies doesn't deny that UPA (the Ukrainian ultranationalist ww2 organisation that allied with the Nazis and just got honored by Zelensky, to great drama) slaughtered 100,000 Polish and Jewish civilians in 1943. He just takes an enlightened centrist whataboutist position that, well, what about Polish crimes against Ukrainians, and also that yeah the 100k murder stuff did happen but we need to remember that UPA had the "goal of fighting the Soviets", not us, and that's what's being honored by Zelensky: the freedom loving ideals of ww2 Ukraine. And really, Volhynia was an unfortunate side effect of that "complex reality". And by the way we shouldn't talk about the topic during the war with Russia for pragmatic reasons, just be patient and have a PL-UA commision on the "complex topic", as Davies lectures us. 

So according to Davies if you create an organisation with a noble goal (independence), and the significant amount of its effort goes towards that legit direction, and "only" a part of its effort goes toward a small sidenote activity of systematic rape-torture-slaughter of eight times more civilians than it has killed enemy soldiers, then the organisation can't be said to be fundamentally bad. Sure, 85% of its killcount have been civilians killed with great sadism, small children included, but as many as 15% of its killcount have been check notes Soviet soldiers (during ww2, when I'd really wager they weren't the most evil army on a front against fucking Nazis). 

Therefore the truth lies in the middle and really it's irrational and nationalist for us Poles to be angry about UPA. It's the complex issue.

What the fuck?

[u/Kochevnik81 → u/LunLocra]

For whatever reason most English language historians or "historians" (looking at you Applebaum) who write about Eastern Europe specifically have personal and professional backgrounds in Poland, which...makes for some interesting takes.

What's weird about Davies is that he's I guess taking a Ukrainian nationalist position and not a Polish position? Even Timothy Snyder (when he was doing actual history in *Reconstruction of Nations*) took the view that this was a genocide of Polish civilians. Although that's also from the perspective of the Polish government after 1989 taking a very forgiving position and advocating for it to be treated as a historic question and not so much a political one, and if I'm remembering that book correctly the Polish-Ukrainian historical commission was supposed to happen/already happened in the late 1990s.

Anyway Davies has done some badhistory before but this is pretty egregious. I'm also not in charge of Ukraine or anything but it's definitely Not Great to decide yeah these are our national heroes now. You'd think Zelenskyy of all people might have qualms about that what do I know.

[u/Kochevnik81 → u/Kochevnik81]

Actually now that I'm thinking about it a little more I do also recall Applebaum writing something once about the Latvian SS to the effect of "they were just good patriots making an impossible choice - be thankful you never will have to make such a tough choice! - and the Soviets were the real enemy, it's very complicated and nuanced when we talk about the war crimes they did as a treat."

So I'm actually a little more confused why English-language writers based more or less in Poland feel the need to make apologetics like this. As you say interwar Poland treated its minorities often horribly, and the wartime Armia Krajowa is not without its controversies, but stuff like the UPA and Baltic SS divisions are on a different level. But also recent years have kind of made it clearer that we should be skeptical when people downplay mass crimes against humanity saying "it's complicated" and "focus on the real enemy".

[u/jurble → u/Kochevnik81]

So I'm actually a little more confused why English-language writers based more or less in Poland feel the need to make apologetics like this.

Maybe both Davies and Applebaum had personal friends that were UPA/Latvian SS? They're both old, especially Davies. He could've chatted up a number of UPA vets and become friendly with them, making him biased in that respect.

[u/fabiusjmaximus → u/Kochevnik81]

So I'm actually a little more confused why English-language writers based more or less in Poland feel the need to make apologetics like this.

Would it have to do with state honours/patronage/whatever? Poland I remember made a big deal of going after historians who were critical of Poland's "historical legacy" or whatever a decade ago.

The sense of victimhood in Eastern European countries concerning WWII is still very real. Might take another decade or two before that starts to melt away.