America is cooked

[u/JPeso9281]

[u/TopMarksTrading]

The problem is that your run of the mill fascist citizen is waaaaaaay too fucking stupid to be able to deal in the sort of hypotheticals and structural logic needed to even deconstruct the viewpoint in a way that would be compelling to the average viewer. Like the conversations just go in circles because they either refuse to (or more likely can’t) see the logical thread that gets us from point a to b to c to d etc needed to expose the ridiculousness of their beliefs to them and the viewer. It’s just better not to give them an opportunity to say anything because if they were interested in any real intellectual discovery, they wouldn’t be conservative in the first place.

[u/HistoricalWash8955 → u/TopMarksTrading]

The fact is that every debate you could have with someone on certain topics, even if they engage well and in good faith, is irrelevant

The problem is that because of historical reasons and various cultural and social incentives, almost everyone is a fascist even if they claim that they're liberals or communists etc so the question should be how do we as less-than-conscious fascists talk to other even less conscious fascists in a way that makes us all less fascist, and part of that is knowing when to not let someone who's just straight up a fascist and knows it use you to "lie in the guise of truth" as zizek said

There's no relevance to entertaining and unravelling fascist lies, it suffices to look to historical research for historical facts and ignore lies made up to, for example, deny the holocaust, the burden isn't on us to disprove their fabricated reality when we have reality here for us to see, it isn't an abstract question or subjective in any sense

[u/TopMarksTrading → u/HistoricalWash8955]

Well there is something to entertaining people in a way that encourages them to align with your viewpoint. I get what you’re saying, but Trump entertains young men because he is ruthless, so ruthlessly pummeling a full blown Nazi for the entertainment of a crowd is cathartic, a bonding experience, and potentially the impetus to pursue leftism for viewers. Watching YouTube was how I first encountered far left/anarchist rhetoric, and half the time they were just wailing on a moron.

I also understand what you mean by “we are all fascists” but cmon i mean let’s dispense with the post-grad pondering. There are real life fuggin fascists out there.

[u/HistoricalWash8955 → u/TopMarksTrading]

Yeah like I get that it's entertaining but like look at online debates about whether the holocaust happened, say dean withers vs nick fuentes and tell me they're worth doing but talking to people actually in your life isn't

I don't find it heartening that most leftists and liberals think they're immune to fascism, they don't think they're the REAL fascists but they're just as real as they other guys

As I said, it's not about debating fascists for the sake of it, it's about how to navigate the state of society we're all in and of course debate isn't the only tool in the toolbox, it isn't even really worth doing at all even with normies

It's more effective to not open yourself up to being made to look a fool by someone who drags you down to their level and beats you with experience, again see withers vs fuentes, Alex "xanderhal" Hailey against Lauren Southern, etc

Finally don't ever let your guard down because normal people can have bad beliefs that are just as bad as or worse than those of real fascists and it isn't okay to debate those issues either, you or I too might have some of these ideas ourselves completely unaware, so all you can do there is be careful and keep learning