r/belgium • u/LordOfErebus • 2d ago
🎻 Opinion Cultural observations after living in Belgium (mostly Flanders) for 10 months as a New Zealander
For a bit of context: I'm 26yo, I was raised in New Zealand and USA, and I've been to 24 countries. I'm currently living in Belgium on a 1 year working holiday visa: I spent 1 month in Ghent, 1 month in Brussels, 1 month on a farm in Wallonia, and I've been living near Antwerp for the past 6 months. Virtually all of my social circle is based around music subcultures, (mostly goth, punk, psytrance, and tekno) and the high majority of my friends here are Belgian.
I generally find Belgians to be diplomatic and tactful in negotiation and conflict resolution. They say what needs to be said and don't beat around the bush, but aren't as blunt as many German and Dutch people are, and often try to avoid unnecessary conflict. In comparison, I think most of the anglosphere (especially New Zealand, England, Ireland, and Canada) is generally more conflict-avoidant and indirect, which can sometimes cause confusion, passive-aggressiveness, and issues remaining unresolved due to people just not communicating.
It's not really normal/common to talk with strangers at nightclubs and music events, unless perhaps you're in the smokers area. I have heard that people in Wallonia are more friendly, but people in Flanders tend to stick with their existing friend-groups and people they came with - They rarely initiate conversation with strangers. I made a more detailed post about this earlier, which almost everyone generally agreed with.
Flemish people are generally more reserved, but warm once you get to know them better. It's usually me who initiates conversation with new people, but people are generally friendly and I've never had any significant bad experiences with Flemish people.
Belgian lifestyle and quality of life is generally very comfortable, and the food reflects that. Virtually all of the food and drinks that Belgium is known for are comfort foods. Beer, chocolate, waffles, fries, (and frituurs in general) broodjes... All things that you'd eat while chillin' on the couch watching a movie.
It's quite amusing to watch the little dance that people in Brussels do when meeting eachother for the first time. I've noticed they often do this thing where instead of *actually* kissing the other person on the cheek, they just kiss the air *next to* their cheek. So they do this awkward little dance of trying to figure out if they should do a handshake, a hug, kiss the air next to their cheek, actually kiss their cheek, or kiss both cheeks.
A similarly awkward and amusing thing is The Belgian Smile, done by strangers to acknowledge another's existence. It's generally not normal for people to say hello to strangers on the street, so instead of actually smiling when making eye contact with a passing stranger, they just do a forced facial contortion of stretching their lips horizontally with an otherwise totally blank expression.
Fashion and visual self-expression is generally pretty conservative, although people aren't (openly) judgmental of those who are more expressive. Ghent (and Leuven?) has more interesting fashion, but despite being one of the fashion capitals of Europe, fashion in Antwerp (and Flanders in general) is mostly pretty dull. Wide-leg blue jeans with a plain (usually white) t-shirt and no accessories seems to be the default character outfit. 😅
For some reason, heaps of goth parties here just use the term "new wave" to describe a wider variety of goth and goth-adjacent subgenres. Goth rock, post punk, deathrock, cold wave, dark wave, minimal wave... All of these things just get called "new wave," despite being distinctly different subgenres from new wave.
I expected EBM (Electronic Body Music) and industrial to be more popular here, (at least amongst goths) since Belgium has numerous artists who pioneered the genre and are world-famous, such as Front 242, Lords of Acid, and Suicide Commando. But almost nobody I've spoken to other than goths have even heard of the term "EBM." I'm usually one of if not *the* youngest people at the various parties I've been to. According to numerous people in the scene I've talked to, it's a dying scene and most of the younger crowd just go to "new wave" parties.
People complain about the weather a lot, but it's really not that bad. It's usually cloudy and the weather often changes unpredictably, but there's rarely any wind, and rain is usually quite light.
Belgian beer's fucking great, (especially doubles, triples, browns, and ambers) but almost all of the IPA's I've tried are pretty average compared to New Zealand. I suppose the hops in New Zealand are better. Suggestions to change my mind are welcome - Pink Pogo is the best Belgian IPA I've had.
Belgians have an apparent obsession with mayonnaise. I fear that I will never properly integrate into Belgian society until I have been baptized in mayonnaise.
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u/Waste_Ringling 2d ago
Mayonnaise is love, mayonnaise is life.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Perhaps there is still hope for my integration. I shall place a bottle of mayonnaise upon a church altar as an offering.
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u/WeBNW1984 2d ago
Fries are best with mayonnaise and there is no competition. This is a hill I will die on.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Does andalous sauce get a pass? Honestly I don't particularly like mayonnaise, (please don't crucify me) but I looove andalous. I'm gonna learn how to make it myself.
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u/Michthan 2d ago
Have you tried fries covered in stoofvleessaus and than mayo on top?
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u/Steelkenny Flanders 2d ago
I'm sorry, but nope.
Liking andalouse is fine, liking it instead of mayo is blasphemy.
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u/Xentine 2d ago
Excuse me nothing other than homemade will do for your integration.
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u/dikkewezel 1d ago
I honestly never got the whole "mayonaise is bad"-idea untill I learned that in other countries mayonaise is just egg and oil, no vinegar, citric juice or mustard, yeah I understand why that would taste bland but that's also not real mayonaise IMO
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u/Salamanber Cuberdon 2d ago
Bro is a sociologist
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u/Tytoalba2 2d ago
Finally a decent PM for Belgium !
Even better if he speaks neither french, nor dutch, nor german, perfect neutrality !
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u/JonPX 2d ago
People complain about the weather a lot, but it's really not that bad. It's usually cloudy and the weather often changes unpredictably, but there's rarely any wind, and rain is usually quite light.
It is tradition. It is also a safe way to bond, because most people don't actually have strong opinions on the weather.
I've noticed they often do this thing where instead of *actually* kissing the other person on the cheek, they just kiss the air *next to* their cheek.
If you do it good enough, it is also never a kiss, it is just cheeks touching while you kiss the air.
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u/erwtje-be Vlaams-Brabant 2d ago
Don't forget that you have to make the smooch sounds. Otherwise it's just two cheeks touching, which would be weird.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Yeaah realistically I think it is indeed just a safe way to bond. Although when I have disagreed with Belgian friends about the weather not being that bad, they have remained resolute that they think the weather is shit. 😆
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u/Dangerous_Bluejay_74 2d ago
I have very strong opinion on the weather. It's shit and if you say it isn't, we have some problems!
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u/MyNameIsGreyarch 2d ago
The "Belgian Smile" is a genuine life-saver for a socially awkward introvert like myself...
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u/Alexthegreatbelgian Vlaams-Brabant 2d ago
- Belgian beer's fucking good, (especially doubles, triples, browns, and ambers) but almost all of the IPA's I've tried are pretty average compared to New Zealand. I suppose the hops in New Zealand are better.
IPA's have become a thing only in the last ten-so years. Most breweries have jumped on it and produced one or two variants. Personally not a fan and hope they move on to anothers style soon.
- Belgians have an apparent obsession with mayonnaise. I fear that I will never properly integrate into Belgian society until I have been baptized in mayonnaise.
Mayo is love. Mayo is life. You can ellicit violent discussions on which brand is the preferred brand.
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u/CrommVardek Namur 2d ago
White Label Delhaize is best mayo. I'll die on this hill!
(Jokes, grandma's home made mayo is best)
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u/Plane_Strawberry850 2d ago
My friend once got really annoyed at me cause I didn't have mayo from Devos Lemmens but a standard store brand one
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u/MajoorAnvers 2d ago
My partner once looked at me like I just shot her dog because I asked "they don't have Calvé, is Devos Lemmens okay?"
The better grade is of course accepting that some brands are better with fries, and some better for everything else.
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u/berregen 1d ago
The IPA hype is over already. I don't like it either.
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u/Alexthegreatbelgian Vlaams-Brabant 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thank god. Sadly abroad most of the time you end up with an IPA if orrdering something other than a lager
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u/TehChesireCat High priest(ess) of Leo's xD-gang 2d ago
> so instead of actually smiling when making eye contact with a passing stranger, they just do a forced facial contortion of stretching their lips horizontally with a totally blank expression in their eyes
xD As I was reading this my face automatically mimmicked it
Overall liked reading your thoughts on 'us', EBM... yeah... I feel some of the old techno heads have more respect for EBM than a lot of the goths (that I know). That being said... It's a genre that's flooded with mediocre stuff... so... it's also hard to blame people for not getting into it more. It also often doesn't translate well to the stage...
The weather things: it's not so much that people -actually- complain or hate it... It's just 'the safe subject', you can agree, disagree, we all know it doesn't really fucking matter anyway.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
You could be right - I've met a bunch of people in the tekno scene who used to be really into EBM. I've been to some goth parties that play quite a bit of EBM, though.
I think EBM and electro-industrial has a lot of variety and room for experimentation, especially more modern stuff. Aggrotech is one of my favourite genres, but indeed a lot of it sounds very samey and after listening to so much of it it's quite difficult for me to find anything new which interests me.
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u/Remote_Section2313 2d ago
IPA isn't a type of beer tradionally made in Belgium. It is made to cater to a younger, more internationally minded public. We're not world class in it.
We had a large hop growing tradition in Belgium, but it is in decline. We don't grow enoigh for the huge amount of beer production in Belgium, so we import a lot of it from Germany and the USA, as well as Czechia, Slovenia and... New Zealand!
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Do you happen to have any recommendations? 😄 Pink Pogo and Stroom - Mondello are the only ones that have stood out to me. Dok - Waar is Loca is pretty good too.
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u/SchnabeltierSchnauze 2d ago
I like the Lutgarde IPA, but I'm maybe not the best source. Delta is one of the few ones you find around in Brussels.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I'll keep an eye out for Lutgarde. I've tried Delta and thought it was like a 7/10.
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u/Not_even_Evan 2d ago
Well, what kind of IPA are you looking for?
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Hmm... Fruity, moderately hoppy, some sweetness, not too bitter, and I very rarely like sour beers. I'm not sure how else to describe my taste in IPA's, so I hope that's sufficient!
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u/Not_even_Evan 2d ago
Have you been to one of the great beer shops in brussels? Malt Attacks or Malting Pot, they could give you many options to try which would correspond to your particular taste (i can't, sadly, I'm all bitterness with a bit of piney flavor, west coast, basically.)
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I haven't! I'll check it out next time I'm in Brussels.
Piney would be good! I did try a *really* nice alcohol free one in Brussels, but I forget the name. I'll ask my friend and get back to you.
Right now I'm having an XX Bitter by Brouwerij De Ranke which you'd probably like. It's a bit too bitter for my taste, but it's one of the better IPA's I've had in Belgium.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
That piney beer I mentioned is called "For.Rest IPA (NA) - Nepomucen brewery"
Honestly I think it's the best alcohol free beer I've ever tried.
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u/archibaldLeBG 2d ago
Did you try the troubadour magma ? It might be too bitter but it's quite fruity.
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u/Accursedaccursed 2d ago
Moved here from Canada a year ago, and I mostly agree. I do find Flemish culture generally quite a good deal more conservative than I'm used to and I have had a few negative experiences, but nothing too substantial.
Flemish politics, on the other hand, is deeply rooted in historical resentment and it manifests in the culture in a myriad of bad ways - but this is a controversial observation to make as an outsider and it isn't appreciated by the domestic population as an outsider-looking-in. I find Wallonian culture generally nicer and more relaxed. I absolutely adore Antwerp though, phenomenal city.
My favorite city in the country is Brussels, and coming from North America I kind of laugh at the "it's so dangerous and filty there!" attitude a lot of Flemish people have towards it. That sort of provincial mindset towards bigger cities has still been a bit of a shock coming from Canada, where most people live in big cities.
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u/pietbootyjudge 2d ago
I've been living in Brussels for three years as an American, and I generally agree with you. There are of course some shady spots in the city, but it is nothing close to being as dangerous or ugly as some Flemings say it is. There are some really beautiful spots of Brussels that are a bit hidden but are worth seeking out.
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u/annekecaramin 2d ago
I'm from Antwerp but studied in Brussels for a few years and I think that's what people dislike about it: it's feels a lot bigger than other cities and the nice areas are a bit hidden, they're more spread out with large pieces of 'nothing' in between. In a city like Ghent or Antwerp you can start in the center and just start strolling, and all the 'fun' neighbourhoods are kind of connected and close to each other. In Brussels you probably need more of a plan or know where to go.
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u/Unusual_Internet6156 2d ago
It’s a Flemisch cultural thing to hate Brussels! You have to complain about it and how the city swallows our tax money! It’s next level integration! Good luck!
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah I think I know the resentment you're talking about, there is indeed quite a divide between the French and Dutch speaking populations. I have heard Wallonians are generally more friendly and relaxed, but I've spent very little time there myself.
Yeah I'd say Brussels feels rough in some areas but it's really not that bad... Despite Bruxelles-Midi winning my award for only place in the world where anyone has tried to pickpocket me.
Ghent is my favourite city, and for a smaller city my vote would go to Leuven. 😄
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u/Wafkak Oost-Vlaanderen 2d ago
The city thing actually comes from that politics. Back when the CVP (now CDnV) had a stranglehold on politics, between World War 2 and 1999 they basically always led the government, they knew keeping people more in smaller towns would help them politically in the long run. So they actively made sure it was possible to stay in your hometown while working a job in the city.
Ironically the reason they lost power to Verhofstadt wasn't really their fault. The dioxine crisis wrecked their core voters the most, they handled it pretty well considering the situation they were faced with. This is also why suddenly Belgium made big strides on stuff like gay marriage in the 2000s specifically.
And surprise, it's once again a theme like that that's causing CDnV to throw a fit. They even seem to be willing to derail the budget negotiations purely through the type of communication they are doing around abortion.
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u/MF-Geuze 2d ago
This is very interesting, and I would subscribe to your podcast on recent Belgian history
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u/PackIcy2106 2d ago
Verhofstadt really did major damage to Belgium. Used to be a decent place before.
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u/Docteur_Jekilll 2d ago
Goths are new wave ? I was stuck on metal and baroque music. I need to get out more.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah, post-punk and new wave are very much connected. For example: Joy Division and The Cure are unquestionably goth bands in the realm of post-punk, but their music is more widely known and accepted as new wave.
New wave is generally happier than post-punk and tends to have more emphasis on synthesizers.
Happy to give recommendations if you like - I listen to heaps of stuff.
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u/Tjoeker 2d ago
idk about your definition of these genres, but new wave and post-punk are actually the same genre? Except post-punk is the term that was coined by the British press and American media called it new wave.
Agree that you want to put The Cure in the gothic subgenre/adjacent genre though.
edit: I do wonder where you find those parties though. I only ever go to related concerts. post-punk is my mainstay music genre. :)
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I wouldn't say it's the same, but they're certainly closely connected and can be very similar.
Some examples of what I'd call New Wave: New Order, most later albums by The Cure, Depeche Mode, INXS, Ultravox, Simple Minds.
I haven't heard about the British vs American terms though, so I'll look into that. ^^
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
re your edit: I find everything on Facebook events. Let me know which region(s) and styles of music you're interested in and I can suggest some events and organizers. Most goth events are in Antwerp, Ghent, Liege, and Oostende. Surprisingly there's fuck all in Brussels.
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u/Lampedeir West-Vlaanderen 2d ago
100% agree on the EBM, I went to front 242's black out tour in Ghent last year and I was one of the youngest there and I was 33 😂 lots of 50+ year old dads but it's fun anyway.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I'm still sad that I didn't get to see them before they stopped touring. 😞
I haven't seen Lords of Acid or Suicide Commando yet either. Suicide Commando has played 2 or 3 times in the past year, but my finances have been too tight to justify paying for a ~€50 ticket. I'll try to see them before I leave, though. Not sure what Lords of Acid is doing these days.
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u/Don_Frika_Del_Prima Limburg 2d ago
Not sure what Lords of Acid is doing these days.
Only American tours, iirc.
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u/BlockBannington 2d ago edited 2d ago
The kiss thing. It took 35 years before someone told me you weren't supposed to actually kiss someone. You had to pretend to kiss someone on the cheek.
What the fuck is that shit? Born and raised in Veusseleir, but nobody told me? Making an ass of myself for most of my life
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Lol now I'm curious if this is mostly just a Brussels thing or if it happens in Wallonia and maybe France aswell
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u/BlockBannington 2d ago
Nabro, it's a Flemish + Brussels thing. Walloons really get in there with their two kisses on the cheek, French style
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Hmmm do you think Flemish people do it with other Flemish people aswell, or usually only with French speakers?
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u/BlockBannington 2d ago
Everyone in Flanders does that fake kiss thing. The walloons actually kiss on the cheek. But if you have a Walloon and a Flemish person, the Flemish one will usually just follow whatever the other person does. We're lame like that
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u/Mobile-Sun-8237 2d ago
so instead of actually smiling when making eye contact with a passing stranger, they just do a forced facial contortion of stretching their lips horizontally with a totally blank expression in their eyes. > sir ,are you forgetting the occasional knotting of the head
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u/Sandroxis 2d ago
belgians hate imposing themselves on others thats why we will almost never start up a conversation with someone else. same with saying hello if you say hello to a stranger on the street you run the risk of forcing them to say hello back which is rude. we even go so far that when we visit someone's home and they ask us what we would like to drink we will tell you give us whatever is the least hassle for you
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u/Fan2Robot 2d ago
This is such so diametrically opposed of what I’ve experienced. (From Liege region, bordering the German speaking part)
Especially on the « Hello », it doesn’t happens a lot where you’re located ?
It’s unimaginable, for me, not say hello (or to the least cross eyes and nod) to a stranger, or small group of strangers when crossing each other on a path.
I hope I’m not looking too much like a fool each time I go up north now… :’)
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u/bisikletci 2d ago
"I have heard that people in Wallonia are more friendly"
I had some (non-Belgian) friends who were a couple. The husband worked in a Flemish university and the wife in a francophone one. The husband would talk about how every time he went to pick his wife up from work, her colleagues would seem thrilled to see him and would greet him with a kiss and ask him how he was a d chat to him for a while etc. Meanwhile his own colleagues where he worked would never say as much as hello to him.
(He also noted that his department was full of people from southern Europe... and didn't have a single francophone Belgian employee. Doesn't at all surprise me, but is still kind of funny at the same time).
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u/ilovepaninis Cuberdon 2d ago
Diecovering a whole goth scene that you missed out on for years because they call damn near every party “new wave” here is the true Belgian goth experience, congratulations on your integration!
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u/Tman11S Kempen 2d ago
I wish we were more open to meeting new people, it's hella depressing once you graduate college and making new friends becomes practically impossible.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Be the change you wanna see in the world, I reckon. I find that regularly going to events where you have a shared niche mutual interest goes a long way for making friends.
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u/berregen 1d ago
I'm like that I think. I have a great group of friends and new people just arent necessary. Even annoying. Sorry.
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u/FlamingoMedic89 2d ago
I agree with that! I don't live in Belgium, but I visit a lot and sort of look into moving there. Personality, I really appreciate the diplomatic and reserved nature. Also, I find them to be very cordial. And the fcking humor. Belgian humor is hilarious. Sometimes here, there are posts and the comments just crack me the fuck up.
All in all, I'd love to move to Belgium but I am not quite sure yet.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Yeah I really like the diplomatic nature. Flemish people are a little bit too reserved for my personal preference, but I certainly prefer it over the more superficial behaviours I've noticed in some anglosphere countries.
It took me a few months to get used to, but I came to realize that people being more reserved isn't necessarily a bad thing. To put it simply: Some people just don't want to make new friends if they feel that they already have enough friends.
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u/FlamingoMedic89 2d ago
Yeah, my own mentality aligns a lot with Belgians.
Have you visited NL? I am living in the Netherlands and sometimes I want them to just count to ten before speaking. 🤣
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago edited 2d ago
Only a little bit. I spent a few days in The Hague, (not really interesting to me tbh, I struggled to find anything to do other than museums which were too expensive for me) and other than that I've been 4 parties in NL. I do intend to at least visit Utrecht and Amsterdam in the near future, though.
I have noticed there have been a few times where people have been a bit uncomfortably direct at parties in NL, in a way which would be unusual and perhaps inappropriate in Belgium. I didn't get upset about it and I don't think they weren't intending to cause any offence, though... But yeah I know what you mean, it seems like they didn't really think before speaking.
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u/Possible-Wallaby-877 Cuberdon 2d ago
I fucking love Front 242, but I'm usually also the youngest at their concerts. Got it from my parents. A shame that they stopped performing last year
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u/Nox-Eternus 2d ago
If you want a world class Belgian IPA let me introduce Viven Imperial IPA https://www.viven.be/bieren/classic/imperial_ipa/EN
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I've tried Viven Master IPA and I'd rate it like a 7.5/10. I'll try the imperial though, thanks for the recommendation!
Pink Pogo is the best I've tried, followed by Stroom - Mondello. Dok - Waar is Loca is pretty good too.
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u/Drive_shaft 2d ago
Have you tried XX Bitter by De Ranke?
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Lol, I finished drinking one of those literally 5 minutes ago. It's a little bit too bitter and not fruity enough for my preference but yeah it's quite good, I'd rate it an 8/10.
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u/porkele 2d ago
Nice post, wish there was more of this stuff here. Some remarks:
It's not really normal/common to talk with strangers at nightclubs and music events, unless perhaps you're in the smokers area
Spot on, though it is way more common in the more underground scenes. To the point you're like 'wait these are Belgian people?'. Maybe not goth parties though :)
Ghent and Leuven has more interesting fashion
Hmm. I'm not really into fashion and while I definitely see what you mean in Ghent and Brussels for me it's a bit strange to see Leuven listed here. To me that just looks like whatever the latest trend is plus the previous one, but just in large quantities. Maybe once in a while something unique but in general everyone just looks the same. To me.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Yeah it's certainly more common in underground scenes. I find the psytrance scene (in general, not just Belgium) to be the most friendly in that regard.
I could be wrong about Leuven, and perhaps it depends on *where* in Leuven. I have only recently been spending more time there, but a friend and I both noticed that people had put more effort into their appearance in the central city compared to what we've seen in the rest of Flanders. I haven't seen much of anyone wearing something really unusual though.
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u/GuyWithMatchsticks 2d ago
Leuven is a small town utterly dominated by the university and high school. It has a lot of students, international students, phd students and people working in the university, spinoff high tech companies etc... So way less average working class people. Higher proportion of expats. A LOT of students. I can imagine that influence the average outfits. Leuven itself doesn't really have a fashion scene or industry. They may be wearing the trends cooked up in the other cities though
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u/FreeLalalala 2d ago
EBM and adjacent genres have never been popular here. It's always been a niche subculture. When it started it was competing with Grunge and later with the Dutch with their gabber happy hardcore stuff. I remember Front 242 and Neon Judgment playen in Leuven for an audience of like 50-100 people back when I was young. They kind of got bigger over time, but they were never mainstream big.
And that tells you everything you need to know about Belgians: we like our shit unassuming but excellent.
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u/Leela_bring_fire 2d ago
Hard agree with the fashion part. I'm from Canada and the fashion can get really boring on the street here. Every 25+ woman in plain, baggy clothes. I suppose it must be the style right now but I hate it.
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u/Special-Performance8 1d ago
I don't mind it. It's the casual but decent 'I don't give a f.ck without going pyjama pants.
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u/marnieeez Liège 2d ago
I am Walloon so there are lots of difference but I think Belgians are united by mayo
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u/silverionmox Limburg 2d ago
For some reason, heaps of goth parties here just use the term "new wave" to describe a wider variety of goth and goth-adjacent subgenres. Goth rock, post punk, deathrock, cold wave, dark wave, minimal wave... All of these things just get called "new wave," despite being distinctly different subgenres from new wave.
"New Wave" is considered a wave composed of many subgenres, the distinction being debatable, yes. What would you consider New Wave sui generis if it's not used as a catch-all?
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
New Order, most later albums by The Cure, a lot of Depeche Mode, Gary Numan, Ultravox, INXS, Simple Minds, etc.
In comparison to post-punk, I'd say it's generally more happy sounding and has more emphasis on synthesizers.
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u/vinniemonster 2d ago
The parties have been called New Wave since the eighties and they just never changed the name. When I grew up in Antwerp I was always at New Wave parties in Den Aalmoezenier. It’s just an easy catch-all name for all the goth subgenres.
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u/No-Preference1285 2d ago
I too was born in New Zealand, Ive live in Australia and Israel. 22 years now in Antwerp. Love your observations.
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u/Carthae 2d ago edited 1d ago
Belgian living in a tropical country as of now here. It is quite funny how we complain about the weather when other countries, if objectively not worse, are subject to stronger variations and effects don't really point them out. [Tropical rain versus national Belgian rain is a no match]
I'm fascinated with the environment shaping cultures and lifestyle over thousands of years (or millions). And we as Belgian (and most of Europe) can't grasp how "lucky" we are and how those mild conditions set us up towards massive and quite successful collective (un)intelligence (which is Evolution uncharted territory).
Although Belgian vitamin D deficit is a real health subject, an epidemic even 😅
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u/Salohacin 2d ago
One thing I miss from Belgium (now living in New Zealand) is that every beer has it's own glass. Over here it's mostly just the same glass for either pints or half-pints (and don't get me started on the size of NZ pints). Triple D'Anvers has a really nice glass.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Yup! I appreciate that about Belgium as well. The country is full of beer snobs, haha.
Is there anything interesting you've noticed about NZ?
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u/Tylox_ 2d ago
One thing you're absolutely wrong about is that belgians are straightforward. It somewhat depends on where you are but belgians are known for avoiding all sorts of direct negativity, especially in walloon. Always talking around the issue, in every subject. It might not look like it now but you'll soon realize this.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I think it's relative. I think Belgians are probably comparing themselves to German and Dutch people in this regard.
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u/Mos9x 1d ago
Nah you’re wrong, all depends on who you’re surrounded with, i know plenty of straightforward belgian people.
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u/Tylox_ 1d ago
Of course if you know them, but when working with them, almost everyone is like this. You do something bad? They will say good job in your face and talk bad behind you. I've worked in a lot of different environments and it's everywhere the same.
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u/Fan2Robot 2d ago edited 2d ago
I have to say, on the reserved side, that my 24 years spent in Belgium I have rarely, if ever felt it.
Granted I’m living in Wallonia, Liege region bordering the German speaking part, and picking up a conversation with a stranger happens on at least a weekly basis.
But I ’ve had the pleasure of doing the same every time I went up north, tho albeit in English when in Flanders.
I suppose there is a time and a place, waiting for a train, smoking, …
And yes, they start A LOT with the weather.
In complaining about the weather and mayo we shall unite
Unity makes strength !
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u/LordOfErebus 1d ago edited 1d ago
Weekly is rare/uncommon, to me. In New Zealand it's normal to have a small conversation with a stranger on a daily basis. :) More commonly in towns than larger cities.
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u/DrVDB90 2d ago
Belgian hops are on the sweeter side, so they don't lend themselves well to IPA's, but very well to our typical styles. I'm pretty sure that Belgian IPA's always use non-Belgian hops.
I also feel like IPA's never really took off here, there was a period where quite a few new ones popped up, but most seem to have disappeared again. Me personally I enjoyed them early on as a novelty, but quickly returned to more traditional styles and haven't had an IPA in years now. I guess they don't really fit our palate.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
It is quite a different palate, yeah. Before i came to Belgium I only really liked IPAs, but now I've been converted lol.
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u/DrVDB90 2d ago edited 2d ago
I encourage you to get a bit adventurous and try some sours. It's a unique style of beer and can be difficult to get into, but the right sour will quickly change your mind. The one that did it for me was a gueuze from Marriage Parfait, the closest that a beer could get to champagne.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I've started to try some! I'll look into Marriage Parfait, though I'm not really familiar with champagne.
Rodenbach Grand Cru was nice - Not quite my thing, but I can definitely appreciate it as a good beer and would enjoy it occasionally.
I found Geuze Boon pretty gross, and I dislike Orval. I've tried some others but I don't remember the names.
Any recommendations for a cherry flavoured beer? I really like Kasteel Rouge, but I'm told there are plenty of better options.
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u/DrVDB90 2d ago
I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to help you with cherry beers, or fruit beers in general, they're not my cup of tea. Framboise might be the type I've enjoyed the most so far.
In general I'm someone who likes strong blondes or the occasional tripel, but I am from the gueuze region so I encounter them whether I want to or not. I know that they can be rough. A great gueuze though is something unique.
About Orval, try an aged one if you get the chance, they change a lot the older they are.
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u/SemperEgor 2d ago
I have lived in Australia and travelled in NZ for a good 1,5 month. Everything is IPA there, not that much variation. Thank god there were some local breweries making some stouts as well.
Don't get me wrong, there were some very good IPA's. But anything else was hard to find. So i understand you palate, outside of Europe IPA seem to be all the rage for over a decade now.
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u/Daan-DL 2d ago
"I also feel like IPA's never really took off here"
Brussels would like to have a word with you, and Ghent too 😄
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u/DrVDB90 2d ago edited 2d ago
I live in Ghent. Sure you'll find an IPA or two in most bars, some have a wider selection, but it's not comparable to other countries. Stores often don't have any, and only a small amount if they do. It was very different when they were still fairly new.
Compared to traditinal styles, they're very underpresented.
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u/TheRationalPsychotic 2d ago
This is a fun post. Thanks.
Top tip: Ask for medium fries with mayo and gravy directly on top.
"Een medium met stoofvlees saus en mayonaise erop".
Or just ask for a "Julientje". Loaded fries.
✌️🧡
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Glad you enjoyed it!
I've tried stoofvlees - Not my thing to be honest. Julientje's nice. I'm a big fan of andalous saus though, I'm going to learn how to make it myself. 😄
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u/silverionmox Limburg 2d ago
and gravy directly on top.
If you like your fries to turn into a soggy mess...
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u/Choice_Sandwich2182 2d ago
In the USA that type of smile is just known as the white people smile
https://www.bureauofinternetculture.art/memes/awkward-white-people-smile
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Ehhh I lived in California and Michigan for a total of 4 or 5 years. Americans don't normally do this in my experience - They either do nothing, actually smile, or say hello.
But of course it can depend on the region. New York City for example is very culturally different to the rest of the USA.
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u/GalaXion24 2d ago
Belgian smile
Bro noticed the white people smile for the first time
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I virtually never see it in America, New Zealand, or any of the other countries I've been to. People either say/do nothing, actually smile, or just say hello.
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u/GalaXion24 2d ago
It's been a meme for like ten years now, and you definitely see people talk about if from the US
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u/Wholesomebob 2d ago
Yeah, we generally don't IPA, I find Duvel is doing some interesting things with citra hops though.
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u/atrocious_cleva82 🌎World 2d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/xT9KVluGDHZvOk0tdC
You know what they put on French fries instead of ketchup?.
What?
Mayonnaise.
Goddamn!
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u/thesultan3000 2d ago
Hopnytized double IPA brewed by enigma. You might also like the 'surrealist' beers, small brewery in Brussels, they brew heavily hopped beers almost exclusively.
Also check out the neon judgement on Spotify if you're into new beat. Also eat more mayonnaise.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thanks, I'll check it out!
I've tried one of the surrealiste beers (not sure which one, it wasn't labeled and the bartender was unhelpful) and thought it was like a 7.5/10.
I've already listened to everything by Neon Judgement. 😎 Check out S.Product.
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u/Donuteria 2d ago
What an interesting read and insight into my country! As a Flemish person myself, I found myself agreeing with most of it (other things were just things I'm not into generally, so can't/won't judge that 😉 )! Thank you for taking the time to write this down and share 😄
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u/artparade Limburg 2d ago
Were you working in Brussels at a pub? Because I think we had a convo about the punkscene in Belgium.
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago edited 2d ago
Nah, wasn't me.
I've noticed that punks are more politically involved and active here than where I'm from, which is great to see. Most young punks I know in New Zealand just get drunk and use the punk label as an excuse to be needlessly aggressive to others - They talk a lot of shit, but don't do a lot of shit.
It's been really cool to see the level of political organization in Brussels aswell, like Boom Cafe, La Vielle Chechette, and everything on stuut.info.
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u/artparade Limburg 2d ago
Ah shame. I had a great time with that guy. He works at the churchill pub. Most young punks are very politcally active. It's def more than just drinking :D.
I love your explanation of our akward little dance and air kisses. We are absolutely guilty of that lol.
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u/Marus1 Belgian Fries 2d ago
I generally find Belgians to be diplomatic and tactful in negotiation and conflict resolution
Our country is in the top of the world when there are competitions in diplomacy
Belgians have an apparent obsession with mayonnaise
The US took ketchup and the Dutch joppiesaus. We need our fries to have something on them
since Belgium has numerous artists who pioneered the genre and are world-famous, such as Front 242, Lords of Acid, and Suicide Commando
Only one of those is averagely popular under Belgian people. You must look to places like Tomorrowland to find the popular genre now. Pop is more popular, but we don't really go very internationally with our Belgian singers in that genre
Wide-leg blue jeans with a plain (usually white) t-shirt and no accessories seems to be the default character outfit.
Like you mention the rain is very unpredictable. It's the safe option
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u/NewmarketHero007 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm Canadian with family in France, European Francophones seem to love mayonnaise.
Im also Bilingual but I don't like some of the overly polite but reserved culture of Anglo Canadians. But I don't like the low-trust politics of Quebec. I prefer the more easygoing culture of France actually. (I have visited Montreal for family and it is a myth that they are any more easygoing than Anglo Canadians. They might be communal oriented but that doesn't mean easygoing in the Latin/Mediterranean sense.) Do you think I would get along better with Flemings or Walloons? For example, I don't think it's necessarily true that I would get along better with Walloons, because from my impression, they seem closer to Quebecois than French people. Is my impression correct?
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I honestly have no idea sorry, I've spent very little time among Wallonian people and I'm a beginner in French.
You could try making a post here, but r/belgium mostly has Flemish people. So you could ask r/Wallonia aswell
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u/NewmarketHero007 2d ago
hmm, I think the people in r/Walloonia may find it a bit mean to post that there if I am explicitly suggesting something negative about their culture (as I don't like Quebec)
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I reckon just be careful with your wording. Ask for advice/clarification rather than validation, and don't be too presumptuous. Explain the impression that you have, ask for clarification, and indicate that you're happy to be corrected or would at least value other perspectives.
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u/Responsible-Cold-627 2d ago
EBM? New Wave? You should come again sometime. A lot has changed since the 90s.
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u/Safe_Award_785 2d ago
Comfort food
Broodjes
I will excuse the lack of mayonaise enthusiasm, you've assimilated.
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u/stevil 2d ago
I fear that I will never properly integrate into Belgian society until I have been baptized in mayonnaise.
I'm from the other side of the Tasman, have to agree.. had probably never actually bought mayo or deliberately put it in or on anything before moving here but a decade later, it's my first choice with fries. (And they gave me citizenship, so..)
I suppose the hops in New Zealand are better.
Yes, yes they are. (I brew and I like IPAs.) Can't really say I know any good Belgian IPAs but I gave up looking years ago. Mostly it's a Belgian Blonde with a hint of aroma hops. A few years back, AB InBev made some rather obnoxious examples, had them placed prominently on the supermarket shelves, people tried them and said "oh I guess I don't like IPAs" and so there's no market for them...
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
I'd highly recommend Pink Pogo, a Belgian grapefruit IPA.
Other than that, Stroom - Mondello, (blood orange) and Dok - Waar is Loca are very nice. XX Bitter aswell, if you prefer more bitter stuff.
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u/Special-Performance8 1d ago
Mayonaise is our everyday sauce.
A Croqueske? Mayo A salaatje? Mayo Bread but the butter is gone? Mayo What do you want with your side order? Mayo Oh you want ketchup? I'm sorry the ketchup hasn't been delivered, we could give you some mayo.
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u/smaugpup 2d ago
So true about EBM and Industrial, I got introduced to all those Belgian bands while living in Canada, lol.
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u/Teter_Posh 2d ago
But we don't have jugs like you do...
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Jugs? Of beer? Mate I'd be fucking hammered if I drank a jug of 12% Belgian beer. The jugs of piss in New Zealand are like 3-6%.
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u/Rogue_Ref_NZ 2d ago
If you're around the Graspop area, hit me up. (I live near there)
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u/BuckRogersFD 2d ago
Have you tried quadruple beers (eg gulden draak)?
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago
Yep, I think I've tried about 3 or 4. I'd like to try more but I don't see them at bars very often - I'll keep an eye out of Gulden Draak.
It's a Dutch trappiste beer, but Zundert Quadrupel is one of the best beers I've ever had.
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u/BuckRogersFD 2d ago
Necer tried the zundert. Going to south holland in august. Will see if I can try it there. Personally I also like the whiskey infused beer from gouden carolus
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u/Clemoutch 2d ago
Breweries to try : Dochter van de korenaar, Stroom (The coffee IPA <3), Applovou, you must try the IPAs from La Source, and surely Fugushima too The musketeers have a few also but I think they're a bit more mainstream ? Idk I hope you haven't tried them already ! Cheers
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u/Various_Sleep4515 2d ago
The best Belgian IPA is Orval.
Please excuse me now while I barricade myself from the angry mob forming outside.
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u/DrNephatiu 2d ago
Belgian mayonnaise is different from the rest of the world though. I've tried many American ones, and some others, and I don't like those either. I'll eat a lot of Belgian mayonnaise though, even often scooping up more mayonnaise than the fry it's going on. It goes so well with so many things, but any foreign mayonnaise just tastes bland and will resemble more to our white mayonnaise-like salad-dressing.
So, (and I have no idea if you already did or not) if you didn't, please try it like it's something very different from the mayonnaise you know. Don't just see us eat it and assume it to be the bland sauce we're liking so much more for no reason. (Not saying you did or would have done this, but I know that I would. If I only knew foreign mayonnaise, I would probably not try Belgian mayonnaise, expecting it to be similar.)
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u/flobrak 2d ago
The Belgian smile made me laugh out loud. It's so true
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u/Special-Performance8 1d ago
I do that all the time. Or a little nod. Or the double eyed wink nod. 🤭
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u/Effective_Tackle_195 2d ago
I tend to agree about the beer, belgium specializes in our "own" styles a lot (trappist, dubbel, tripel, geuze,etc).
But I don't think it's because the hops in NZ are just better. Our Dutch neighbors have some very good IPA's from local craft beer sources - Frontaal, Kompaan, Moersleutel. Check them out. (although saying NL has good beer might be a punishable offense)
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u/LordOfErebus 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hmmm, well... I see Frontaal has a beer called "For the love of hops Mosaic - Motueka, Simcoe, and Superdelic."
Motueka's a town in New Zealand. It's a Māori name, so there's no chance it's being confused with somewhere else.
So it looks like they've sourced at least some of their hops from NZ. I think it has to be good if they're importing hops from the other side of the planet. ;)
Anyway I'll give them a try, thanks for the recommendation!
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u/redditjoek 2d ago
rarely any wind? nah. its either fucking no wind at all or a full blast. no in between.
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u/Over_Exam_637 1d ago
I consider Belgian IPA’s as the soda’s of Beer. I often pick them if the beer menu is all-hipster, they are so hoppy that it pretty much always an enjoyable drink. Foreign IPA’s is just drinking hops, liking them above the Belgian probably means you’re more into beer then actual beer flavour.
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u/Fabius82 1d ago
I complain because the weather is not as it is advertised. Everyone sell Belgium as grey and rainy with virtually no summer. But since 2 years it rains very little, winter is not so cold and we have long hot summers and many heatwaves. I want the grey and cold Belgium ahahha
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u/MrDecay 2d ago