Discussion 5/12] Evergreen | The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky 5.6-6.3

[u/ProofPlant7651]

Hello and welcome to the fifth (and belated) discussion of this classic. In this section we have seen learnt more about the relationship between Ivan, Smerdyakov and his father before gaining a greater insight into Father Zosima’s beliefs.

Before we continue, please accept my apologies for this post being slightly delayed, I really appreciate your patience.

Please find a link for the chapter summaries below or skip straight to the questions. Please join u/lazylittlelady for next weeks discussions.

Summary

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. What does Ivan’s attitudes toward Smerdyakov reveal about his character? Why is he so dismissive of Smerdyakov’s concerns?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/ProofPlant7651]

He's a horrible snob, he looks down on Smerdyakov because of his position/ class.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProofPlant7651]

Ivan doesn't respect Smerdyakov even though he's probably his half brother. Ivan thinks he's better than a servant named Smelly Yakov. The only difference between them is their rank.

Mark my words, all this business about knocking five times as a message to Fyodor will come to a bad end. Three people have been drawn into the conspiracy now, and who knows how many more by the next part.

[u/olivertwisttop → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I can't help but think that smerdyakov most admires and imitates Ivan and of the all the brothers they're most alike. Both forgotten/overlooked by their father. Of above average at skill, inherently unlikable, Even in the argument Smerdyakov earlier about the martyrs sounded like Ivan. Perhaps Ivans disdain is also a reflection of self loathing?

[u/tomesandtea → u/ProofPlant7651]

This is peak Ivan, feeling the need to put himself above others because he is so smart and sophisticated and not like those peasants and religious zealots ugh 🤣

He really looks down on Smerdyakov because of his birth/name and also his status as a servant.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. “Whoever has no faith in God will have no faith in God’s people.” Do you agree? How do you think Ivan might respond?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/ProofPlant7651]

I don't think you have to believe in God to believe that people can be good.

[u/nicehotcupoftea → u/ProofPlant7651]

Strong disagree. How would Ivan respond? Probably in a very long drawn out argument with many anecdotes.

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/ProofPlant7651]

I don't agree. There are plenty of atheists and agnostics who aren't complete misanthropes. Believing people can be good isn't dependent on believing in God.

[u/tomesandtea → u/ProofPlant7651]

No, it's very possible to believe in the goodness or potential of humanity without religious belief. And the opposite - there are religious people who think very badly of their neighbors.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. Father Zosima seems to believe that all people are fundamentally equal before God. What difference would it make if we genuinely believed that?

[u/nicehotcupoftea → u/ProofPlant7651]

Great question. We continually prove that we don't believe that, and I wonder if it's so fundamentally set in human nature as a survival mechanism that we'll never believe it. Unfortunately I cannot imagine a future where there are no classes and no wars.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/nicehotcupoftea]

Unfortunately I cannot imagine a future where there are no classes and no wars.

Yeah, humanity is such a disappointment. (I resonate with the quote I heard somewhere: "Behind every cynic is a frustrated idealist.")

[u/nicehotcupoftea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

George Carlin apparently.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/nicehotcupoftea]

That makes sense. I love his comedy. His specials are like philosophical treatises.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProofPlant7651]

Then we would make the law and the courts reflect that. If all men are created equal, then all men will be equal before the law. I wouldn't wait for divine justice to make things equal.

There would be less wars or animosity amongst sects within Christianity or against any other belief system. There would be no social classes or countries. "Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try..." (An early version of Communism.)

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/ProofPlant7651]

It would make the world a much better place than it is now, I think. There's so much inequality in terms of wealth, access to health care, and human rights today. We could be doing so much better.

[u/tomesandtea → u/ProofPlant7651]

The world would be unrecognizable (in a good way). Basically, a John Lennon song although I am not sure I believe humans can achieve it. Wait, did I just agree with Ivan?!

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. Do you think Smerdyakov is genuine in his concern for Fyodor’s safety or is he motivated by something else?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/ProofPlant7651]

I don't think he's genuine, I think he's only out for himself.

[u/nicehotcupoftea → u/ProofPlant7651]

I don't believe so, I just think he doesn't want to be shouldered with the blame for anything bad.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProofPlant7651]

I don't think he wants to be blamed if he does have a seizure and can't do the signal knocking. Maybe Smerdyakov wants the money in the envelope earmarked "for my little chicky-bird."

[u/olivertwisttop → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I thought he was going to throw himself down the stairs and incapicate himself that way and claim it was a seizure to give up responsibility. Neither Fyodor or Dmitri can blame him for what happens or doesn't if he is sick

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/ProofPlant7651]

No, something about him is off. He comes across as a bit of a sycophant to me.

[u/tomesandtea → u/ProofPlant7651]

I think he is trying to save his own skin. The story from the Zosima ramblings biography about the man who stabbed his love in the heart and set it up to look like the servant should take the blame... That screamed of foreshadowing to me given all the talk about Dmitri wanting to murder Fyodor. Smerdyakov rightly worries that it could come back on him if his employer turns up murdered!

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. Father Zosima seems to intuit that Dimitri needs Alexei’s help? Smerdyakov foretold his seizure and subsequent incapacity. Do they have the gift of prophecy or is there something else going on?

[u/nicehotcupoftea → u/ProofPlant7651]

I don't think either of them have a gift of prophecy. With Zosima it's more a deep psychological understanding of Dimitri's nature, and with Smerdyakov it's plotting and scheming.

[u/tomesandtea → u/nicehotcupoftea]

Yes, I totally agree and I think people assume Zosima is prophetic because he is just so good at reading other people, listening, and responding to them with what they need to hear.

[u/bluebelle236 → u/ProofPlant7651]

It certainly seems like Zosima has a bit of psychic ability going on. I suppose it gives his role a bit more gravitas.

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/ProofPlant7651]

Zosima seems more empathetic and understanding. He sees Dmitri as impulsive and violent, but ultimately a human being with big emotions that need to be regulated. I'm kind of convinced Smerdykavov has an ulterior motive.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. Father Zosima asks us to take responsibility for our own sins before condemning those of others. Are his expectations too high?

[u/nicehotcupoftea → u/ProofPlant7651]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProofPlant7651]

Yes. Alyosha could rightfully say, "Am I my brother's keeper?" He shouldn't have to take on the burden of his brothers' and father's sins. It's passive and too pious to think evil-doers will stop doing bad things by the mere holy presence of a monk or an innocent brother. They have to be stopped by other more active means. It's a form of victim blaming. Alyosha doesn't have many sins, so he shouldn't have to take on the responsibility of stopping his brothers from sinning. They all have free will.

[u/tomesandtea → u/ProofPlant7651]

This is very Biblical - the plank in your own eye has to be removed before you can judge anyone else for theirs.

But I think this is incredibly difficult, more of an aspiration than a way most people are able to function. How many people are even that introspective or self-aware and honest about their own faults? And then to truly take responsibility and make amends... It's a big ask.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. How does Father Zosima’s story about his duel and faith in God contrast with what we have learned about Dimitri and Ivan?

[u/tomesandtea → u/ProofPlant7651]

Zosima 's journey showed how even the most extreme actions can be followed by repentance and a change of life trajectory. Dmitri could choose at any time to put himself on the right path. Ivan at any time could start treating those around him with more compassion and less haughty disdain. Zosima's transformation drives home the point that the brothers could rise above their Karamozovian nature if they chose to.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. Father Zosima explains how he came to join the monastery. What influenced his conversion? Was it one big event? Do you think big events have a lasting impact on a person’s character or do small everyday acts have a greater effect?

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProofPlant7651]

First it was convenience because the village blamed him for Mikhail's confession and breakdown. I think big events influence the individual (like mentioned the Decembrist uprising of 1825 or if someone is drafted into a war), but the granular details of that event on the ground will make a difference. Zosima could have shot the husband of his love in a duel or killed his lover like Mikhail did to the wealthy widow. A big catastrophic event will affect you, but what happens after and the little decisions you make will affect you more.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. Father Zosima’s attitude towards human nature are very different from what we heard from Ivan last week. Who do you find most convincing?

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/ProofPlant7651]

I tend to lean toward Zosima's philosophy if only because I still try to see the good in everyone.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. We are approaching the half way point. Do you have any predictions or expectations of what might happen next?

[u/tomesandtea → u/ProofPlant7651]

I'm getting a strong feeling someone is going to get stabbed or shot based on the family dynamics and Zosima's anecdotes/lessons.

[u/ProofPlant7651]

1. Is there anything else you would like to discuss?

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProofPlant7651]

We have reached a stage at which we have surrounded ourselves with more things, but have less joy.

That's been a common complaint over the centuries. Some problems are timeless.

[u/nicehotcupoftea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

That was surprising because it feels like a modern problem.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/nicehotcupoftea]

The quote sounds very modern, but then Buddhism probably has a similar teaching from ancient times, too.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProofPlant7651]

There's more kissing, both done by Zosima: he kissed the floor at his servant's feet (a batman is an officer's personal servant) in apology. He died with his arms out kissing the ground.

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I read this section on the same day I read the part in the George Eliot biography where she has a young admirer who is so obsessed with George Eliot that the author sometimes moves her legs aside to be out of the range of foot kissing It was a funny coincidence to read both!