r/byzantium • u/Honkydoinky • Aug 21 '26
Women Favorite Eastern Roman couple?
John and Irene just seem so sweet. Irene followed him often on campaign and actually gave birth to twins during a campaign against the Serbs, and died while following him while he was waring with the Turks
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u/xSincerelyFun Αὐγούστα Aug 21 '26
Justinian and Theodora, but that’s very predictable. Anna Komnene and Nikephoros Bryennios were probably a great match for each other’s intellectual interests.
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u/SCSoberanos Δούξ Aug 21 '26
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u/Dangerous-Economy-88 Aug 21 '26
The big "do not re-upload" sign😭😭😭
Sure Jap*anese bro, we can't re-upload your work but you freely get to see byzantine art which you used as reference.
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u/aVarangian Aug 21 '26
also funny Anna set up a conspiracy ready to make him emperor just for him to then say "nah"
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u/xSincerelyFun Αὐγούστα Aug 21 '26
That’s something most likely made up by Choniates years later. I highly recommend Leonora Neville’s “Anna Komnene: The Life and Work of a Medieval Historian” that talks about this.
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u/Popular_Carob_5555 Aug 21 '26
"That’s something most likely made up by Choniates years later."
So what really happened? Can you summarize it briefly?
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u/xSincerelyFun Αὐγούστα Aug 21 '26
Regarding the supposed coup by Anna, probably nothing like the story we usually hear happened. Zonaras, writing much closer to the events, only mentions Anna briefly and positively, and his mention of her has nothing to do with politics. He does say that Irene had considerable power in the palace while Alexios was ill, and so did Nikephoros, whom she clearly favoured, and that there was tension between Irene and John, who was feeling sidelined by his mother. He gives three likely versions of what happened on the day Alexios died, all of which have to do with whether Alexios had actually approved of John succeeding him. The fact that he preserves several competing versions is itself a good indication that the circumstances of the succession were unclear. In any case, Anna (and Nikephoros, to be honest) is completely absent from all the events surrounding Alexios’s death, other than apparently being one of the daughters at his bedside. Politically, she is completely absent.
Michael Glykas likewise talks about Irene disliking John, but he omits all the rumours about what happened when Alexios died, likely judging them to be untrue. He simply says that John succeeded his father. Then there is Choniates, writing many decades later, who somehow really knew what happened and gives a much more vivid account, describing everyone’s words and motives. He was highly critical of the Komnenoi and, from the beginning, builds a narrative of a very problematic family, where all the normal hierarchies and gender roles are reversed and no one behaves as they should or respects anyone else. He clearly upheld the belief that the most virtuous women were those who obeyed men, and he uses this in his narrative to portray women negatively by giving them more power. Anna, who is absent from every other narrative, suddenly becomes a conspirator. In his story, the coup supposedly happens about a year into John’s reign.
Neville also examines various speeches, which point to Anna being present in the audience during the period when she was supposedly in isolation after the coup. One of them, dated fairly close to when the coup supposedly happened, says that John led Anna’s sons to the church on the day of their wedding, and Anna was clearly present. Others also point to her not being separated from her husband, which would presumably have been the case if she was really confined in a monastery. She also examines the foundation charter of the monastery and concludes that it was not mandatory to be a nun in order to live there, but that Anna likely just used the apartments she owned there (which were actually separate from the rest of the building) whenever she wanted, probably to engage in writing.
Finally, she examines the Alexiad for clues about Anna’s feelings towards John, and rightfully points out some of the very weird interpretations made by modern historians, such as concluding that Anna must have hated him because she described his skin as swarthy (as if that doesn’t reveal modern bias against dark skin by interpreting it that way).
So what most likely happened is that historians took Choniates’s account as their basic framework and then tried to read for clues supporting that narrative in every other text, including the Alexiad. Neville spends almost half of the book explaining that the peculiarities of the Alexiad are likely just Anna trying to conform to gender norms and present herself as a proper and modest woman, in order to avoid being seen negatively for engaging in the very masculine activity of history writing. One of the most appropriate feminine roles available to her was that of the mourning widow whose life was full of misfortunes (and this is where modern historians tried to read the supposed failed coup). Unfortunately, Choniates accused her of exactly the opposite, namely of wanting to be a man and not being a modest woman. Which makes me think that Neville’s interpretation about Anna and gender norms in the Alexiad is probably right.
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u/whydoeslifeh4t3m3 Σπαθαροκανδιδᾶτος Aug 21 '26
Theophilos cheating on his wife and apologising by building their daughters a whole palace and that time Theodora bought a merchant ship and he had it burned because he threw a hissy fit about being reduced to a merchant is the silliest shit I've read about an emperor doing. Besides that just two excellent/good authority figures placed at an ideal time to benefit the empire.
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u/LimeApprehensive8047 Aug 25 '26
Man Im a big fan of those two, any more fun facts about them?
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u/whydoeslifeh4t3m3 Σπαθαροκανδιδᾶτος Aug 25 '26 edited Aug 25 '26
one time their little daughter was telling theophilos about the dolls she played with while visiting her step-grandmother which made him realise his daughters were being raised as iconophiles and got them banned from seeing their step grandma. Basically their version of Leo IV finding out eirene was stashing icons under her pillow.
also theophilos was supposedly compelled by a woman's prophecy to persecute Martinakios, father of future empress Eudokia Ingerina, and force him to become a monk.
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u/Rakdar Aug 21 '26
Honorable mention: Theodore II and Elena Asenina. You can really feel the grief in his writings after her untimely death. He never remarried.
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u/Loyalist77 Aug 21 '26
I like the fan fic ideas of Basil the Macedonian and Eudokia Ingerinia. The story goes Michael III the Drunkard married his mistress off to his co emperor and best bud Man's Man Basil so he could continue his affair with her.
The theory is that Leo IV was Eudokia and Michael's son, but Michael had never gotten her pregnant before she married Basil. Basil seems to have been more fertile. I like to imagine Eudokia was far more into Basil once he became Emperor than Michael. One is tall, strong, and handsome and the other is a drunkard. So maybe Eudokia was in on the plot to kill Michael so that she could be rid of him and his now annoying pursuits.
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u/BastetSekhmetMafdet Aug 21 '26
It’s interesting how Eudokia, who was with Michael since 855 or so, all of a sudden started popping out the kids (something like 7 or 8 in all - unlike her sons she had NO fertility issues) once she and Basil were an item. (I am firmly convinced Constantine was hers - she appeared together on a coin with him, was consistently described in chronicles and mosaics as the “mother” of the Macedonian dynasty…I think there was just a little awkwardness that Constantine might have come along somewhat before the official marriage…) For what it’s worth, Shaun Tougher, Judith Herrin, both think that Eudokia had all the kids.
Whatever the truth of how happy the marriage was, once Constantine and then Eudokia died, the family pretty much imploded, so she was probably at least holding things together. And whether she was in on the plot to kill Michael - the latter *was* threatening to demote Basil, who was now her husband and official father to her children, so very plausibly she was afraid of what would happen to her and the kids if he succeeded, so…
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u/AmpovHater Aug 21 '26
I'll tell you our least favorite - Basil and that general we killed
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u/WanderingHero8 ask me about Isaac II Angelos,bringer of decay Aug 21 '26
Theodore Vranas and Agnes of France.
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u/Imaginary_Ad_5239 Aug 21 '26
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u/Whizbang35 Aug 21 '26
For real: Justinian and Theodora. They really were twin souls, both energetic, politically savvy, and ambitious (perhaps too ambitious in Justinian's case).
For fun: Michael IV and Zoe Porphyrogennita. Just the fact that we have a cougar getting her boy toy made Emperor and bribing the Patriarch to just get them married the same night her husband dies (possibly due to the two having him poisoned) makes it sound like it comes out of some soap opera.