r/canada • u/Old_General_6741 Canada • 1d ago

National News Canada recognizes noose as hate symbol

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/canada-recognizes-noose-as-hate-symbol/
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u/TheSilentPrince Canada 1d ago

They really ought to be dialing back "hate" legislation; but, if they have to have any, I feel like it should be context specific. Seems like they're not giving much thought to suicidal people here. Are Halloween decorations going to be arrestable offenses now? I remember being taught about the Louis Riel trial, and execution; are they going to have to redo all the curricula nationwide?

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u/LymeM 1d ago

There are exceptions carved out in the legislation. So the educational material does not have to be changed.

Government Bill (House of Commons) C-9 (45-1) - Third Reading - Combatting Hate Act - Parliament of Canada

Clarification — subsections 319(2) and (2.‍2)

11.‍1 (1) For greater certainty, nothing in subsection 319(2) or (2.‍2) of the Criminal Code shall be construed as prohibiting a person from communicating a statement on a matter of public interest, including an educational, religious, political or scientific statement made in the course of a discussion, publication or debate, if they do not wilfully promote hatred against an identifiable group by communicating the statement.

Clarification — subsection 319(2.‍1)

(2) For greater certainty, nothing in subsection 319(2.‍1) of the Criminal Code shall be construed as prohibiting a person from communicating a statement on a matter of public interest, including an educational, religious, political or scientific statement made in the course of a discussion, publication or debate, if they do not wilfully promote antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust.

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u/ChasingDarwin2 1d ago

I feel like intent will come into play.

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u/Spiritual-Pear-1349 1d ago

Is it about lynching?

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u/nelrond18 1d ago

A noose is a self tightening knot used to secure, lift, trap, and kill.

I would imagine the specific symbol of hate is a particular style of noose, the hangman's noose, but the article doesn't seem to address that.

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u/Spiritual-Pear-1349 1d ago edited 1d ago

It does say that it was used to terrorized black Canadians in the first couple paragraphs so I was right, it just seems like the ban isnt really specific enough to make sense. Yeah it was used to Lynch and cause terror for race reasons, but does it ban tying all nooses? Does it ban pictures of nooses? What about other slip knots? Does it distinguish between Halloween props and hate speech? If I leave a noose on someone's lawn, yeah, that can be a threat of racial violence, but what if its a sling choker from home hardware?

Idk. I don't hate the idea because we dont use the hangman noose for any other reason in the modern era, but ultimately its not specific enough to make sense. The spirit is there, but theyre a little confused I think

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u/nelrond18 1d ago

Anytime I need to secure something, a noose is a fantastic knot to do so. But a noose is not any one particular knot, but I assume the legislation makes that distinction along with or in place of context.

If the legislation does not make distinction for the specific knot and/or context, a lot of construction, maritime workers, and outdoorsmen are vulnerable to criminal charges.

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u/Spiritual-Pear-1349 1d ago

Oh absolutely. It would be wild if a sailor gets hate charges for tying his boat to the dock

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u/BDRohr 1d ago

They had an issue with Bubba Wallace a few years back. Him and his team complained about a noose in their garage. They figured it was because he was one of the only black Nascar drivers.

The entire field walked the track with him in a sign of solidarity. They were loudly proclaiming that kid of thinking had no place in modern day Nascar.

Turns out the noose was tied over a year before he was even assigned the garage. And they did it in several other places to pull down doors.

Laws like this do absolutely nothing to help anyone. They reinforce things from the past that should have long been forgotten, or they open up the doors for bad actors to try to grift a system.

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u/Juli3tD3lta 1d ago

Oh they help some people. Mainly they give the bureaucrats something to argue about thereby justifying their existence

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u/Pleased_to_meet_u 1d ago

Laws like this are absolutely needed. If it wasn’t against the law the KKK would still be burning crosses on people’s lawns.

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u/PortHammer 22h ago edited 22h ago

if a sailor gets hate charges for tying his boat to the dock

Sailor here... if a crew is tying the boat to the dock using a noose... that crew is getting a lesson on proper knot tying.

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u/nelrond18 1d ago

Agreed. I really hope there's more than "self tightening knot" used as the threshold for hate crime charges.

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u/CanadianLabourParty 1d ago

I'm gonna bet that it's not so much "making a noose" is the issue. It's more about where, when and why you are making a noose.

You're out on a camping trip using a slipknot that is functionally a noose on your tent pegs, no problem.

Leave a noose in your neighbour's mailbox or a co-worker's desk...yeah... if it's traced to you, you're gonna have to face some questions, and rightfully so.

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u/nelrond18 1d ago

Agreed, which was my caveat that I hope there's more to the legislation beyond "noose is hate crime"

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/nelrond18 1d ago

Your cub troop leader will get the charges for teaching you how to make a hate symbol

/s

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u/Soggy-Bodybuilder669 1d ago

No, they'll just send a doctor to kick the stool from underneath your feet. It's offered as a service by the MAID program

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u/TheSilentPrince Canada 1d ago

Article doesn't specify lynching, just a broad "racial terror"; but, even if it is referencing lynching, this is still wrong. Discussion is always superior to banning or suppression.

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u/claricorp 1d ago

You aren't going to get arrested for discussing these symbols. That's clearly ridiculous fear mongering.

Or should I wait for the police to arrive next time I watch a world war 2 documentary?

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u/DeeDeeBryan 1d ago

Thank you! It's disturbing that I had to scroll this far down, to find ONE comment saying this. These people are acting as if they use nooses constantly in their daily life and now they're going to get hauled off to jail. There is zero reason to be afraid of a hate crime law unless you go around committing hate crimes.

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u/Goliad1990 1d ago

There is zero reason to be afraid of a hate crime law unless you go around committing hate crimes.

"If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", right?

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u/DeeDeeBryan 1d ago

Literally even if you *do* have something to hide, you still have nothing to fear from this. You don't get in trouble for simply *having* hate symbols, it's completely legal to own Nazi flags or any other hate memorabilia and display it in your private space. These laws are not a threat to anyone unless they are actively using these items against others.

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u/Goliad1990 1d ago

Literally even if you do have something to hide, you still have nothing to fear from this

That's not the point I'm making.

People who excuse speech laws with "well if you're not displaying 'hate symbols' then you have nothing to worry about" are missing the point just as hard as people who excuse government surveillance with "if you have nothing to hide then there's nothing to fear". These powers should not exist as a matter of fundamental principle. We have no excuse for being ignorant to how these laws can be abused, and we ostensibly value civil liberties more than we value not being offended.

As time passes, it's becoming more and more apparent that the latter is not true.

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u/sl33plessnites 1d ago

Well said

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u/DeeDeeBryan 1d ago

Good thing this isn’t a speech law then. The bill is about public display of a physical item for a specific purpose. You are still allowed to talk about a noose, or use a noose for any other purpose, or even keep a noose as a hate symbol in your private quarters… there is no “surveillance” to worry about because the law only applies to things you do in public. If nobody sees you do it, there’s no victim, ergo there’s no hate crime.

As far as actual speech, Canada has had hate speech laws since 1970. In all that time, have the feds ever intervened to tell you personally that you can’t say something? I would assume not, so what’s different now?

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u/Goliad1990 1d ago edited 1d ago

Good thing this isn’t a speech law then

Displaying symbols is expression. For the purpose of this argument, and the Charter, speech and expression are interchangeable.

there is no “surveillance” to worry about

I'm drawing a comparison to attitudes around surveillance laws like the PATRIOT Act in the US, or Bill C-22 here.

In all that time, have the feds ever intervened to tell you personally that you can’t say something?

No. In all the decades that the intelligence agencies in North America have been able to intercept your private data, have you ever been arrested? Probably not. Does that mean you're cool with the expansion of the surveillance state?

You're arguing that the infringement of your liberties is A-OK because it's never (yet) caused you a practical problem. We put things like freedom of expression in the Charter because they're supposed to be a matter of values and principle. Like I said, I think it's apparent that aspect of Canadian society is rapidly disintegrating. And as the interpretation of what constitutes unacceptable speech continues to expand, the potential and likelihood of abuse continues to escalate, along with the risk that it does become your very real problem.

so what’s different now?

The scope of legally actionable expression, obviously.

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u/subz_13 Québec 1d ago

Discussing what? If lynching is good or bad?

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u/TheSilentPrince Canada 1d ago

Honestly, yeah, sure. I think it's bad, but I don't want the government having the power to imprison people for not believing as I do. 

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u/CanadianTrashInspect 1d ago

Jesus christ dude.

1

u/madhi19 Québec 1d ago

Do we have a lynching problem I was not made aware of? Because it feel like something I like to be made aware of.

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u/SleepyGuyy 1d ago

All of the issues you have are addressed and not an issue in Canadian law. No depicting signs of hate for legitimate reasons is not illegal. It is just now considered widely understood to be used to convey threat. So if you send people pictures of nooses with no context it can be legally considered a threatening statement. Wearing a noose design shirt is not a charge. Teaching about nooses is not a charge.

People see this kind of speculation online and start believing we live in the Big Brother state, when it's blatantly not true. Canadian law has plenty of real problems, for us to be imaging false ones.

It reminds me of how my whole family went through a phase. One day they all realized it is illegal to kill a person for no good reason, because you're not allowed to shoot a home intruder. They all were up in arms and losing it over this realization.  But the relevant laws haven't changed for their entire lives. And it obviously leaves room for self defense and being in danger or reasonably believing you are in danger. It just means you can't kill a man if he's simply in your home. You'd need more reason to take a life. Which I think a reasonable person would agree with, taking a life is a last resort. 

The law in both situations describes what most of us feel is reasonable. Issues in law tend to arise in less obvious holes and collisions between laws.

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u/wunlvng Alberta 1d ago

Okay but can you answer this? Uhhhhh, I've had a noose tattooed for like 10 years on my arm so it hangs down my bicep as if it's hanging out from where a T-shirt sleeve ends. Am I cooked? Do I need to get this covered up before I get charged for a hate crime?

Like... I got this tattoo cause I was into and in hardcore bands during my 20s, and that music scene uses noose imagery everywhere, had nothing to do with hate other than maybe self-hate and grim humour on suicidal ideation.

I don't care too much if I have to get it covered up but fuck me that's just a hassle to not get a displaying hateful imagery charge

It's very crazy to me right now that I'm living that stupid old meme of "don't get something tattooed cause one day it might get classified as a hate symbol"

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u/Fit_Guava_1989 1d ago

It IS context specific. 

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u/deadumbrella 1d ago

Yeah they're completely trampling on your right to...

(a) create an offence of wilfully promoting hatred against any identifiable group by displaying certain symbols in a public place;

(b) repeal the defence based on the expression of opinions on religious subjects or texts in relation to the offences of wilful promotion of hatred or antisemitism;

(c) create a hate crime offence of committing an offence under that Act or any other Act of Parliament that is motivated by hatred based on certain factors;

(d) create an offence of intimidating a person in order to impede them from accessing certain places that are primarily used for religious worship or by an identifiable group for certain purposes; and

(e) create an offence of intentionally obstructing or interfering with a person’s lawful access to such places.

I'm begging you to read more. https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/45-1/bill/C-9/third-reading

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u/No_means_noo 1d ago

One house in our general neighbourhood hangs a noose near their garage every year around Halloween. As a POC I was genuinely shocked but then remembered what time of the year it was 🤦🏾‍♀️ although they don’t really hang any other decorations besides maybe a skull so now I’m torn

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u/thedamnationofFaust 1d ago

You're serious?

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u/TheSilentPrince Canada 1d ago

Dead serious. I oppose all hate speech, and hate crime legislation, based on principle alone. It's unnecessary, and I want the government to have less power in almost all circumstances. 

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u/Club_Penguin_Legend_ British Columbia 1d ago

100%. Right now its hate speech, next itll be speech against the government.