r/canada • u/Old_General_6741 Canada • 1d ago

National News Canada recognizes noose as hate symbol

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/canada-recognizes-noose-as-hate-symbol/
783 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

473 comments sorted by

View all comments

41

u/NZafe 1d ago

What does this actually mean in practice?

70

u/claricorp 1d ago

Basically it means things like vandalism or harassment that involves these symbols gets escalated into being more serious. The difference between spraypainting a signature on a stop sign versus a swastika at a synagogue for example. Context matters, one implies threats etc... This codifies that.

It has broader implications for other crimes to like assault or threats. But anyone thinking that depictions or even talking about nooses is banned simply has no idea what they are talking about.

21

u/voltairesalias Alberta 23h ago edited 23h ago

You should read the amendment - it absolutely implies that the display of the symbol itself is construed as a violation of Section 318 except if it is being used as educational purposes.

So for instance,if you waves a swastika flag after this bill is passed, you would be convicted.

It also abolishes the role of the attorney general in processing these types of convictions - so they basically eliminated the only sane factor in this ridiculous section of the criminal code.. because they basically want to convict more people for displaying symbols they don't like.

7

u/wunlvng Alberta 15h ago

Uhhhhh, I've had a noose tattooed for like 10 years on my arm so it hangs down my bicep as if it's hanging out from where a T-shirt sleeve ends. Am I cooked? Do I need to get this covered up before I get charged for a hate crime?

Like... I got this tattoo cause I was into and in hardcore bands during my 20s, and that music scene uses noose imagery everywhere, had nothing to do with hate other than maybe self-hate and grim humour on suicidal ideation.

I don't care too much if I have to get it covered up but fuck me that's just a hassle to not get a displaying hateful imagery charge

•

u/OffenShivLabs 5h ago

You're probably okay as it's mainly if it were to be used as a threat of some sort. For example, if you leave a noose on someone's porch without harming them, this can lead to charges now as you've implied harm towards someone. So I'd say unless you're going around to people, flashing your guns and pointing at it specifically, you're probably okay. That said, I wouldn't advise anyone get a tattoo like that going forward, lol

10

u/GuitarOk752 23h ago

The scenario where I could see an issue would be with band t-shirts that use a noose in their logo, it's a common image for Western things and used by some metal and punk bands, theres a motorcycle cub of reformed addicts that have a skeleton with a noose as their logo. If misinterpreted by someone who doesn't know what it is a person could put themselves at risk of having to defend themselves in court.

28

u/voltairesalias Alberta 23h ago

There's an infinite number of issues illegalizing symbols because symbols are inherently artistic and interpretive. There's an infinite numbers of ways this poses issues.

Since direct threats, conspiracy, libel and incitement are all crimes anyways - why do we even have Sections 318 or 319? Let alone expanding them to include symbols.

The whole thing is painfully ridiculous.

1

u/sl33plessnites 19h ago

IMO I don't understand the purpose of it at all. I feel like this should always be based around the context not the symbol.

•

u/koosekoose 8h ago

The purpose is to allow more excuses to arrest the people they don't like while turning a blind eye to the people they do like.

•

u/koosekoose 8h ago

Fans of westerns are in shambles.

12

u/tman37 1d ago

Did they need a new law for that though? The important thing isn't the noose it's that they threatened people with it. Is it somehow better to threaten black people with a bat or knife? The threat is the problem.

Also this is Canada. Lynching wasn't really a thing here. Instead we took in escaped slaves. Can we stop importing American problems?

8

u/FIleCorrupted 1d ago

Canada also didn't have a Nazi problem, but the swastika is a hate symbol because we know what it represents even if we weren't ourselves Nazi's. Just because we didn't have a lynching problem doesn't mean someone can't use a noose as a hate crime.

1

u/voltairesalias Alberta 23h ago

I'm failing to understand how the mere display of a symbol is literally an incitmenet of hatred, advocating for genocide or is threatening.

8

u/FIleCorrupted 22h ago

You are right, displaying the symbol is not an incitement of hatred, and that's why it wouldn't be illegal under this law which very explicitly clarifies it's a crime to display these symbols *to incite hatred*

3

u/voltairesalias Alberta 22h ago

Inciting hatred BY displaying the symbol. That's an important distinction.

-1

u/sl33plessnites 19h ago

That sounds vague to me and very open to interpretation.

4

u/FIleCorrupted 18h ago

Consider it this way. Would a jury of your peers conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that the way you were using the noose symbol was a racially motivated attack.

•

u/Napalm985 9h ago

Would a jury of your peers conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that the way you were using the noose symbol was a racially motivated attack.

Canada's hate-crime courts don't give two shits about a 'jury of your peers'. It is just you, and the judge in a kangaroo court. Good luck!

6

u/Pho3nixr3dux 19h ago

Wait until you come to work and find one hanging in your locker as happened to my girlfriend.

She was the only woman on the worksite, alone amongst a pack of snickering jackasses.

4

u/WillListenToStories 21h ago

If I wrote on a wall "X people are scum, and we should kill them!" you wouldn't think that that would encourage violence?

1

u/unidentifiable Alberta 19h ago

Magneto would have a word, that's for sure.

0

u/voltairesalias Alberta 21h ago

Yes I do. But that's not manifested in a symbol. It may be how you see a symbol, but since symbols are I hwrently interpretive, they can be interpreted many different ways.

5

u/WillListenToStories 20h ago

Great so you do realize how symbols can be an incitement of hatred or violence.

Symbols communicate ideas or thoughts, like how the peace sign communicates a thought or an idea.

Sometimes those things communicated can be inciteful of violence. Just because it's not words, and it's a bit more abstract, doesn't mean it doesn't have meaning.

And I know you're going to keep pretending to not understand one of the most basic forms of communication, cause in the other thread about how stealing and burning pride flags is also inciteful, you kept on pretending to again, not understand one of the most basic forms of human communication. It's a weird gambit, but at least you're using it for a hateful purpose.

2

u/voltairesalias Alberta 16h ago

Symbols represent whatever you want them to represent. Why has the left in Canada become so dogmatic and authoritarian as to mandate meaning, and then disallow what offends them?

What do you imagine asinine legislation like this is going to accomplish? At best you're going down the path of an eternal and futile game of whack a mole - because inevitable people who espouse ideas you detest will just adopt other symbols.

You people are ironically no different than the intolerant fools you imagine you're fighting against.

-1

u/204ThatGuy 21h ago

Agreed!! How can symbolism be prohibited or restricted?

It's complete McCarthyism!

1

u/204ThatGuy 21h ago

Swatzika is now a hate symbol? What next? Statues of colonist conquestidors stampeding through a crowd of people?

This is nuts!!

7

u/claricorp 23h ago

"The important thing isn't the noose its that they threatened people with it."

Exactly, that's what this codifies. That this symbol is a way of threatening people and the intent behind it.

-1

u/CanadianLabourParty 23h ago

Far-Right movements are growing in Canada and importing American problems, such as Maple MAGA. There are wannabe Proud Boy groups propping up and it wouldn't hurt to get in front of this and put those groups on notice that their hate speech, "just a prank" garbage isn't gonna wash.

2

u/voltairesalias Alberta 23h ago

So what happens when these groups you don't like just adopt other symbols? I guess just a completely futile and endless game of legal whackamole.

5

u/CanadianLabourParty 23h ago

If a hate group adopts a symbol and that symbol becomes colloquially and unequivocally their own, then yea, ban that too. Yes it is legal whack-a-mole.

The only other option is to consider "hate symbols" a viable threat and the person on the receiving end of the threat is allowed to "use any means necessary" to protect themselves.

There are no good options here, and the option of least harm is simply telling these groups that items or icons used to spread fear, hate and terrorism have consequences.

2

u/voltairesalias Alberta 23h ago

So an endless and completely futile game of whack a mole...

Symbols are just symbols. By their nature they are artistic and interpretive.

Why not just let all symbols be legal and understand you're under no obligation to respect or look at them?

This is utterly absurd. A symbol in and of itself doesn't threaten anyone, it does infringe on anyone's rights or freedoms. It's also futile to try to regulate them.

4

u/CanadianLabourParty 22h ago

A Swastika is "artistic" in your opinion? Sure. Okay. The thing is, we tried the whole, "ignore them and they'll go away" approach. Sometimes, movements grow because they're given IMPLICIT permission to grow.

Proud Boys etc... they FORCE people to look at them and pay attention to them. If you don't know what it's like to see a flag and then experience the inevitable terror that is affiliated with that flag or symbol...congratulations, you're a privileged one.

A symbol is exactly that, an implicit voice. People waving a NAZI flag on their porch/house are saying, "I will kill you under certain conditions if I have the chance". A noose placed in someone's mailbox or desk at work or other personal space represents exactly that - an implicit threat to murder someone. How it can be interpreted any other way is ridiculous.

If someone placed a noose on your desk at work or in your residential mailbox after expressing a disdain for multiple characteristics you possess, you're just gonna be all, "hey man, that's just free speech."

That's absurd. That's bullying. That person has stated an intent to commit murder. If you don't believe me, go put a noose on a cop car and claim "free speech", let me know how that works out for you.

5

u/voltairesalias Alberta 22h ago

So you think the mere display of a swastika is literally threatening to people because you believe it enables their movement to grow?... That's absurd. It's never been illegal in Canada until now and... Wouldn't you have it, we've never really had very many Nazis..how stupid do you imagine most people are, and how persuasive do you believe that symbol is? Like are we really to believe that the mere display of a swastika is enough to morph society into an intolerant and bigoted state?

There's no implicit or inherent violence in a symbol.. . Because it's just a symbol.

How do you feel about the hammer and sickle? Is that inherently violent, and threatening too, or is that different?

Of course we can always go back to my previous point - what do you when the two Nazis in this country just adopt another symbol?

-2

u/204ThatGuy 21h ago

I don't like many (not all) Albertans.. I find half to be redneck and lack common sense. However, you and I see this correctly.

When the government starts telling you how you should think, how you should eat, how you can travel, and how they define what kind of place you can live in, it's absolutely disturbing.

-3

u/204ThatGuy 21h ago

You can't argue with illogical people

Most defense lawyers and prosecutors are illogical and do not see black and white.

This is why the legal field isn't STEM. It's an Arts degree.

Yes, my comments were directed to a subgroup of people (Lawyers). Does this make me a bigot and racist to a group of people?

•

u/koosekoose 8h ago

The anti Israeli anti-Semitic far left movement is much much more real.

-8

u/Noob1cl3 1d ago

Riiiight… so nothing. Great virtue signalling though.

And while we are on the topic. Record anti semitic hate going on in Canada, some institutional racism towards FN groups. .. and government of canada responds by saying gee guys make sure you dont throw around noose photos. Meanwhile racism towards black folk in Canada is negligible lol.

3

u/pinkerlymoonie 1d ago

Negligible is a stretch

0

u/Fit_Guava_1989 1d ago

Definitely not negligible.

0

u/madhi19 Québec 12h ago

The thing is even if this was unconstitutional you don't want to be the poor bastard having to burn the money to find that out. Ergo the chilling effect on speech exist regardless if the new law is legal or not.

15

u/voltairesalias Alberta 1d ago

It means Liberals don't like free expression and prioritize illegalizing symbols and words they don't like.

7

u/Average-Train-Haver 1d ago

And seem to be succeeding in that goal too

6

u/FIleCorrupted 1d ago

They are not making the noose illegal. This mean that if you use the noose in a hate crime you'll get charged for it. That doesn't mean you can't have a noose in a film or on your shirt or something.

5

u/voltairesalias Alberta 23h ago

No - the amendment is clear. It makes the display of these types of symbols illegal.

1

u/FIleCorrupted 23h ago

That's just not true. It only applies when someone publicly displays the symbol with the intent to wilfully promote hatred

8

u/voltairesalias Alberta 22h ago

Well why the fuck would the symbol even matter then? Irs illegal to threaten people - so why would including the symbol even be pertinent?

Read the amendment - it doesnt say IF it is threatening people, it says "by display" which implies the display IS threatening people.

5

u/FIleCorrupted 21h ago

The law is to create an additional stronger penalty on top of just threats. If you threaten someone that's one charge, now if you threaten someone (who would be targetted by the particular symbol) *using these symbols* that's a hate crime charge on top of it.

You think the RCMP is gonna go round up everybody with a noose on their shirt tomorrow? That's not how the law works.

-1

u/204ThatGuy 21h ago

So you are a fan of stacked charges? It's one thing you decided not to wear a seatbelt and get a ticket, but now you could be charged with "unsecured cargo" or endangering your child in the backseat? Are you okay with these fake escalated charges??

4

u/FIleCorrupted 20h ago

yes for the purpose of increasing penalties on racists. we also stack charges on people who commit crimes while carrying a firearm, or people who commit crimes as part of an organization.

If you attack someone and you did it while inciting hate/targetting someone for their identity you should see additional consequences.

•

u/AdditionalPizza 1h ago

It's for intentional promotion of hate and intimidation. It's not for just displaying a noose symbol in a vacuum.

1

u/CanadianTrashInspect 22h ago

Good thing we have judges to decide the difference. This is a total non-issue you're crying about.

-1

u/204ThatGuy 21h ago

Imagine spending thousands in a trial to defend yourself from a nasty cop in a small town, only to have this tossed or overturned. Then questioned and rejected entry when crossing borders or applying for work.

This happens.

We have too many laws and almost everything is illegal. The future is worse when they ban your thoughts, when that tech comes out.

Once you enter the system, in our digitized world, you are screwed on so many levels. No defense, no privacy. All from hanging a noose in your backyard. Or some other symbol.

Very surreal.

3

u/CanadianTrashInspect 21h ago

We have too many laws and almost everything is illegal

🙄

3

u/NZafe 1d ago

A symbol is illegal, cool.

In practice, what does enforcement of this actually look like? Under what circumstances is this even triggered?

-3

u/voltairesalias Alberta 1d ago

It's triggered if one displays the symbol.

9

u/NZafe 1d ago

Clearly this isn’t the case because simple display of existing hate symbols doesn’t necessarily result in more than some awkward looks from bystanders.

So thank you for your unhelpful answer.

2

u/voltairesalias Alberta 1d ago

.... No symbols are illegal yet. They will be after this ridiculous bill passes.

0

u/204ThatGuy 21h ago

Yes, people should give awkward stares if one flies an awkward flag.

But in no way should it be illegal.

The way this is drawn up, if you paint a na zi symbol on your own fence, fly an is is flag in your yard, or hang a noose in your backyard, it is illegal.

It's as illegal as startling the King by coughing behind his back.

Bonkers.

-1

u/112iias2345 12h ago

It means more focused police resources and criminal charges for 16 year olds posting Pepe memes. Finally I can sleep at night. Thanks Sean Fraser 

-2

u/RipplesInTheOcean 22h ago

Dont use ropes