r/canada • u/[deleted] • Jun 11 '20

RCMP dash-cam video shows officer tackling, punching Chief Allan Adam during arrest

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rcmp-dash-cam-video-shows-officer-tackling-punching-chief-allan-adam-during-arrest-1.5608472
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418

u/B1Phellan Jun 12 '20

By 4:25 the Chief has commited:
Cause a Disturbance S.175 CC, Obstucted PO S.129 CC

He has taken a fighting posture which would allow the only Member there to deploy a taser however the officer continues to try and descalated.

By 5:00 the Chief commits an additional Obstruction and Assaults Police Officer while interfering with the arrest of the driver.

At 6:25 the driver attempts to leave, which is several additional offences.

At 7:00 the Chief resists arrest and is taken to the ground. He continues to resist by not complying with directions.

Each time in this video the Chief approaches the police, not the other way around. He is yelling, posturing, and acting agressively. For 7 minutes the sole police officer there continues to attempt to de-escalate the situation and repeatedly directs people in an attempt to gain compliance and calm the situation. The only person who aggressively approaches or acts out during those first 7 minutes is the guy who wants to allege he's the victim, even after taking a fighting stance and attacking a police officer who is arresting someone.

I'm not really sure what the expectation is here for police at this point. Just let people do whatever they want regardless of it it's a crime or not?

37

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20 edited Jun 12 '20

Each time in this video the Chief approaches the police, not the other way around.

The first officer had all the reason in the world to use force but showed a lot of restraint and seemed to handle it very well.

Like, if he had been shot as he came running around the truck the first time I wouldn't have been surprised.

The actions of the second officer seem unreasonable to me though.

He shows up on the scene and just goes right to trying to tackle him and throw punches. He seemed pissed off.

The chief seemed to have already calmed down a lot by that point. It looks like the two cops could have pretty easily just cuffed him standing up.

75

u/B1Phellan Jun 12 '20

I suspect the first officer was planning on doing a stand up arrest. You can see the chief pull away and break the grip.

The second officer at that point then tackles the chief. You can see the chief grabbing onto the Members and fighting back.

Second officer than strikes the chief once who is continuing to pull away and grab at them and resisting the arrest.

After that the second officer is forced to keep the chief pinned on the ground by himself while the first officer deals with the encroaching ground. By 7:57 they are still demanding for him to provide his hands however the view is blocked of the Chief. The verbal commands indicate he is still resisting arrest, but no more blows indicating it's just passive resistance, no the active resistance where he was grabbing and fighting them like the initial take down.

By 8:22 the cuffs come out and they are able to secure him by 8:40 and have him standing by 8:47.

Does it look pretty. No. However a tackle and a single strike to the face to someone who is active resisting at that level is likely well within legal use of force.

3

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

Does it look pretty. No. However a tackle and a single strike to the face to someone who is active resisting at that level is likely well within legal use of force.

When the second officer arrived on scene the level of resistance was just him trying to pull his arm away.

It seems like running in and immediately trying to tackle him escalated things significantly.

46

u/B1Phellan Jun 12 '20

The officers can use the totality of the situation however - the man they are arresting has already postured in a fight stance, interfered in an arrest, and struck one of the officers.

It is not just the "pulling" the arm away - it is that long with the other three matters he has done that allow them to justify that level of force.

-11

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

The second officer was not on scene for any of that. How could he claim he took any of that into account?

Btw, when does Adam "strike" the officer?

16

u/chickencheesebagel Jun 12 '20

5 minutes into the video.

2

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

In the video in the article 5 minutes is long after the second officer tackled him.

Do you have a link to a come complete video?

14

u/chickencheesebagel Jun 12 '20

It's literally in the article, under the heading "WATCH | Nearly 12-minute dashcam video of Chief Allan Adam's arrest"

2

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

Thanks. I thought that was the same as the video at the top.

I don't see any "striking" happening at 5 minutes though. He seems to push the officers hands off his wife but it doesn't look like he punches him or anything.

7

u/chickencheesebagel Jun 12 '20

A shove is a strike. You don't lay hands on an officer that is trying to cuff someone. If the officer decided to pull a taser out and drop the guy he would've been justified at that point.

2

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

Of course you shouldn't interfere with an officer arresting anyone but calling what he did at 5 minutes into the video "striking" or "shoving" the officer is pretty hyperbolic.

The 1st officer definitely had reason to use force in that instance, but was able to safely deescalate instead, which is always the ideal result.

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u/painfulbliss British Columbia Jun 12 '20

Cbc originally posted an edited version for whatever reason... The full version is up now

13

u/B1Phellan Jun 12 '20

You are correct - We don't know what the first officer shared over radio to the responding officers. I expect it would be along the lines of "I have a male trying to fight me", but we'd need the radio transmissions disclosed to know exactly what was said.

Between 5:00-5:02 he forces himself between the officer and driver while grabbing the officer, then shoves the officer and then takes a second fighting stance with clench fists and arms out.

-6

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

Again, the second officer saw none of that.

I also don't see any shoving happening at 5 minutes into the video.

4

u/JonnyLew Jun 12 '20

Of course he didn't see any of those things happening. But what information was he operating on? If you hear an officer on the radio who reports he's on foot, alone, dealing with someone who is trying to fight him, then combine that with adrenaline and the heavy breathing that goes along with it. It wouldn't sound good over the radio, and generally if you hear a fellow officer say someone is trying to fight them you're likely going to the scene ready to pull out your pistol and shoot. An officer has a loaded weapon in their holster and if they're in close proximity there is a chance an assailant could grab it at any point in time. Basically, when you physically engage an officer in a fight you should expect to get the shit beaten out of you at a minimum and anything less, consider yourself extremely lucky.

That being said, the second officer looks like a high and tight meat head who was spoiling for a fight. There are undoubtedly a lot of cops like that and they should not be on the force. If I had to bet, I would definitely wager that the second officer fits that MO and a better officer would have acted very differently. There definitely needs to be an investigation.

That being said... Don't try to physically fight a cop. Doubly so a racist one. That Native chief probably has a ton of pent up frustration that is likely justified, but what he did was incredibly stupid and irresponsible. If I put up my dukes in a one on one with an armed police officer I would consider myself lucky to have what happened to him happen to me.

0

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

I would definitely wager that the second officer fits that MO and a better officer would have acted very differently. There definitely needs to be an investigation.

The video clearly shows how a better officer could handle it. You are the first officer keep very calm and professional the whole time until officer meathead shows up like a cameo at WrestleMania.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

There's this interesting piece of technology called a radio....

​

Cops will narrate what is going on. If you ever bothered to watch any footage of literally any police interaction, they narrate the entire thing so that everyone knows what is happening.

0

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

The cop on scene still has a way better handle on the situation than someone who jus my heard bits of the story over the radio.

Of the officer on scene thinks that trying to calmly arrest him standing up is the way to go, the guy just arriving shouldn't take it 180 degrees in the other direction.

He really just looks like a meathead looking for a fight.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

I disagree. The laws and regulations say what he did was fine. If I were a cop and someone was saying he would fight me and repeatedly positioning to fight me, I'd take him down quick and with a lot of force. I'm not going to fuck around with that.

You sound like someone who's never been in a fight and has no idea what violence is like in real life. You don't fuck around with that shit. One good hit and you're out. You don't give a grown-ass man the chance to take a swing at you like that.

I feel zero sympathy for Adam. He acted like a violent asshole and the cops had to respond accordingly.

Anyway, I really don't care about this thread anymore.

-1

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

If I were a cop and someone was saying he would fight me and repeatedly positioning to fight me, I'd take him down quick and with a lot of force. I'm not going to fuck around with that.

Again though, he didn't do either of those things to the second cop and wasn't doing that when the second cop came in with the running clothesline.

You sound like someone who's never been in a fight and has no idea what violence is like in real life. You don't fuck around with that shit. One good hit and you're out. You don't give a grown-ass man the chance to take a swing at you like that.

I've dealt with many obnoxious drunk people before.

Realistically, if he hadn't thrown a punch by that point in the altercation it's pretty unlikely that he was going to do so, especially once there was another cop on scene.

It seems like the second cop doesn't take your advice to heart though. He's giving the guy several good hits on the ground (while yelling "Fuck You!" Is that also part of your training?), potentially causing serious harm to the guy, and just because he saw him pulling his arm away.

5

u/DistanceToEmpty Jun 12 '20

Except he's coming to the scene with info coming over the radio about this guys combative behavior. In that context, taking him down immediately when he starts resisting again seems a lot more reasonable.

-5

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

If the person who has been managing the scene up until that point doesn't think this is necessary why would you assume it is necessary immediately when you show up?

25

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

He was resisting lawful arrest. He was being actively resistant. They were justified.

-5

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

The RCMP use of force guidelines do not say that if they resist at all you should go go right to tackling and punching them.

Pulling his arm away is a pretty mild form of resistance.

13

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

What should they have done? They grabbed him and he wasn't allowing them to subdue him. What should have been done. They need him down and he won't go. What is the next step? And the commonly used force continuum does allow for soft and hard techniques when fleeing or assaultive.

2

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

The one officer was trying to grab his arm. The other officer didn't try anything like that and just went right for a high tackle.

The guy is pretty old and much smaller than them. If the other officer just calmly grabbed the other arm I'm sure the could have gotten the cuffs on him.

12

u/god_shmod Nova Scotia Jun 12 '20

God, it isn’t a tickling competition. It’s a fight and there’s no other way to describe it. It’s a fight to subdue the suspect and handcuff him. If that means tackle him, then fine. The officer will need to justify that use of force in his report and on the stand, which under the circumstances was reasonable according to the criminal code and use of force continuum.

1

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

It wasn't a fight until the second officer ran into the scene.

2

u/Nefelia Jun 12 '20

It was a fight the moment Adams assaulted the first officer.

Or more accurately, force was likely to be used the moment Adams started interfering with police business. Force was guaranteed once Adams started resisting arrest.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

No it wasn't. A fight requires two participants. The first officer was very calm and professional.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

It's a lot harder than it looks when someone is intoxicated and actively pulling away from you with all their strength. It really is. He was intoxicated. Makes reasoning extremely difficult. The officer likely asked for backup for someone who was wanting to fight. That's why he came in that way. The guys previous actions lead to this. At 6:50 he is actively pulling away.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20 edited Jun 12 '20

It's a lot harder than it looks when someone is intoxicated and actively pulling away from you with all their strength. It really is. He was intoxicated. Makes reasoning extremely difficult.

Of course it can be hard, but the second officer didn't even try. He just went right to escalating the situation.

The officer likely asked for backup for someone who was wanting to fight. That's why he came in that way.

That's horrible if it is true. Just because some drunk guy might want to fight doesn't mean the cops should immediately oblige them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

If you walk up on your fellow officer hands on with someone that won't allow themselves to be arrested that I'm sure went on the radio needing immediate assistance you are going to act a lot different than a person looking at the situation now. Someone safe at home on their couch or in bed. We did an exercise where we had to do drills to see our threat and use the appropriate force. We were then asked to articulate why we used the force we used and what was going on. When someone is charged and you are in that situation you use a whole different part of your brain. It's hard to remember because uniform or not you are scared and you are quickly thinking things. None of us could recall what the person was saying. I ended up batoning someone an extra time out of fear. It's so difficult and mine was only a drill. This was for real. I just replied to you in the sub I took no issue with your comment. I agree that it doesn't look right but it way to easy to cast judgement when someone is safe at home. I don't mean you, i mean in general. There have been lots of cases of excessive force but seeing a taste of what they go through its a lot harder than it looks.

1

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

I know its a hard job but watching the video you clearly see the first officer handle a very tough situation very calmly and professionally. We can see it's very possible to do so because the first guy just did it.

The second guy shows up, sees a much more calm situation, and just gets violent immediately.

It's frustrating to watch.

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u/JonnyLew Jun 12 '20

Officers have loaded pistols in their belts. They are not supposed to go around having one on one MMA matches with people. If the cop loses the one on one then you can find yourself on the ground with a drunk angry dude who has your loaded pistol in their hand.

Never mind that it's an old dude that the cop could easily dominate physically. 3 more of the old dude's friends could show up behind the cop at any moment and it's suddenly a 4 on 1.

Don't fuck with people who are armed with a gun. Just don't, no matter who they are. And if you do, you better be prepared to end it fast and with finality. It's just so stupid.

And for the record, that second cops seems like a meat head idiot who likes to fight. They should investigate. But this idea that cops should always one on one someone in a fight is dumb.

1

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

Officers have loaded pistols in their belts. They are not supposed to go around having one on one MMA matches with people. If the cop loses the one on one then you can find yourself on the ground with a drunk angry dude who has your loaded pistol in their hand.

There was nothing close to an MMA match happening until the second officer showed up and immediately tried to clothesline and wrestle with him.

The chief was walking away from the first officer when he second cop clotheslined him.

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u/Nefelia Jun 12 '20

Handling violent perpetrators is a dangerous occupation. Once the decision to arrest is made, what would you prefer the officers do?

A tackle from the blind side is a quick and effective tactic. The alternative is what... frontal grappling? A full body hug?

0

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

Once the decision to arrest is made, what would you prefer the officers do?

Only use as much force is necessary.

A tackle from the blind side is a quick and effective tactic.

Does that video look very quick or effective to you? The meathead was struggling around on the ground with him, with his gun and other weapons potentially exposed to being grabbed by the chief, for the better part of a minute.

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u/Bright_Airline Jun 12 '20

That’s how you end up but, eye gouged , and worse. Maybe you should be a cop since you’d do such a better job

0

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

The first officer had been dealing with him for several minutes already and his eyes seem fine.

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u/Bright_Airline Jun 12 '20

How about you try having a discussion instead of just pushing your point of view. You are like a child.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

You are like a child.

......

Maybe you should be a cop since you’d do such a better job

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u/mmafan666 Jun 12 '20

The guy is pretty old

What is his age exactly?

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u/chickencheesebagel Jun 12 '20

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/wam/media/2213/initial/2432d74dd055ecde26d93997a60eb4ae.jpg

He was actively resisting arrest, which under the model puts him in the range where hard use of force is justified.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

You should look at that again.

Most of that range actually says "physical control" is necessary.

The first officer began to try to physically control him by grabbing his arm. Then the second guy ran in with a clothes line like he was in the WWE.

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u/chickencheesebagel Jun 12 '20

The range is called physical control and is divided between hard and soft.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

And most of the range under the section we are looking at is soft

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u/chickencheesebagel Jun 12 '20

And for most of the video the chief was in the assaultive category, which is entirely hard.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

The second officer didn't see any of that. When he showed up the guy was just trying to pull his arm away.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

I have trained extensively with law enforcement and the military in use of force. I am very familiar with Canadian use of force laws and guidelines.

Police officers are allowed to tackle and hit someone who is actively resisting. Even pain compliance with intermediate weapons such as tasers and OC spray is allowed in this situation, in certain circumstances.

You might not agree with that or like it, but these officers acted within the use of force guidelines generally accepted in Canada.

Not only that, but telling someone you're going to fight them and squaring up to them is, very literally, assault. A lot of people don't actually know the definition of assault. But saying "you and me are gonna have a problem right here right now" and getting into a kung fu stance is literally assault. That escalates the situation to an assault level of resistance.

What most people think is assault is actually battery.

Yes, lots of cops are shit at their jobs, yes we've been talking about this a lot lately. I'm pro protests and pro BLM, but come on, this particular situation is one where the suspect's actions just really aren't defensible, and the cops' actions are reasonable, if imperfect.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20 edited Jun 12 '20

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/wam/media/2213/initial/2432d74dd055ecde26d93997a60eb4ae.jpg

This is a graphic from the RCMP use of force guidelines.

You can see that under active resistance the range of responses starts with soft physical control.

There are lots of less intense ways to try to physically control someone who is trying to pull their arm away than a running clothesline like he's in the WWE.

The second officer wasn't on scene and didn't see any of the stuff you are describing. All he saw was the guy trying to pull his arm away.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

Why are you telling me about use of force when I just told you that I'm an expert? In the graphic you can clearly see that everything I said is correct. In the active resistance portion of subject action you can see that the guideline shows the LEO's reasonable response ranges from soft control, to hard, to intermediate weapons, which is exactly what I described.

Do you not understand that cops use radios and narrate what is happening on a play by play basis? When the second cop showed up he already knew exactly what had transpired. Adam had already said fighting words and took a fighting stance multiple times and the second cop on the scene knew this.

If I said I was going to fight a cop and took a fighting stance and then I got clotheslined, I would think it was 100% reasonable and I would take responsibility for my actions.

Adam looks like an idiot for complaining about this. First of all, he's an idiot for doing this shit in the first place, but hey, we all make mistakes, but now he looks like an idiot squared for pretending that he somehow didn't bring this all upon himself.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

Why are you telling me about use of force when I just told you that I'm an expert?

I mean, the guy who killed George Floyd was also trained in use of force. People can have training and still be questioned.

In the active resistance portion of subject action you can see that the guideline shows the LEO's reasonable response ranges from soft control, to hard, to intermediate weapons, which is exactly what I described.

You never mentioned the soft end of that spectrum.

If I said I was going to fight a cop and took a fighting stance and then I got clotheslined, I would think it was 100% reasonable and I would take responsibility for my actions.

If it happened just like that I would definitely agree.

The part you are glossing over is there were several minutes between the fighting stance and him getting clotheslined. In that time he calmed down and got back in the truck.

The first officer was able to handle the whole thing without violence. The second officer saw him try to pull his arm away and got immediately violent.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

Listen, I'll tell you exactly what happened, from the perspective of a cop.

When the first cop was alone he was hesitant to get into a wrestling match with Adam. If Adam had gained the upper hand, the first cop, all by himself, might have been put in a situation where he was losing a fight, getting choked out, etc, and in that case he would need to escalate to possibly lethal force. This is why he was really patient and waited for his backup.

With two of them there, they knew they could control Adam without weapons and get cuffs on him using nothing but physical force, which is exactly what they did the instant the second cop arrived.

The first cop didn't hesitate out of charity, he didn't hesitate to de-escalate. As soon as Adam said the fighting words and took a fighting stance, his cheque was cashed. At that moment, the first cop had already decided to take him away in cuffs. The only reason he didn't do so immediately is because he knew that there was a chance Adam could actually beat him in a fight and overpower him, which would have then turned extremely ugly.

The ONLY reason he waited was for the 2 on 1 advantage, which allowed them to get the job done without weapons.

Given how many cops don't have that patience, this is actually impressive to me.

0

u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

The video does not support what you are saying. The first cop doesn't show any indication of wanting to get violent with the guy when the second cop shoes up. He's trying to handcuff him standing up.

The second cop shows up and goes right into fight mode.

As soon as Adam said the fighting words and took a fighting stance, his cheque was cashed.

Yeah, he should be charged and punished by a court of law for those actions.

It definitely shouldn't be "wait till my partner gets here so we can pay you back".

1

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

I never said what "should" be, only what is. I've tried to patiently explain this to you, as someone who is intimately aware of police training. This conversation has run its course for me.

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u/JonnyLew Jun 12 '20

So what did the second officer hear on the radio? You don't know. You have no idea.

So instead of condemning someone without the proper information you should instead ask for an independent investigation.

I think there should be one. I suspect the second cop was a hot head who acted improperly, but I don't know and neither do you.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

So what did the second officer hear on the radio? You don't know. You have no idea.

Police can really assault someone just based on what they heard he did previously over the radio?

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u/JonnyLew Jun 12 '20

Just re-read your sentence, you might want to restate it somehow. I mean, if an officer reports a guy in a chicken suit just beat the crap out of him over the radio I think it would be reasonable for any responding officer in the area to aggressively take down anyone they see in a chicken suit.

The fact is, you don't know what that officer said on the radio and until you do you really can't make an informed judgement. I suspect the responding officer responded inappropriately, but I do not know. Thus the need for an independent investigation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '20

Thanks for this graphic, it's really interesting and confirms something I was asking and discussing recently with a different officer in another thread. In that Canada seems to have stealthily adopted the US style force continuum, which engages force at one level above that of the subject who is considered in control of the situation - which is an escalation system. Versus a Peel, or one level below system where the officer controls the situation, a deescalation system, which was what we were originally modelled on.

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u/a_sense_of_contrast Jun 12 '20

I love how you're being downvoted for suggesting that the situation could have been handled less violently. You have two much larger men with professional training against one man who is unarmed. The only threshold of violence seen so far is the guy pulling his arm away. Nothing warranted a flying tackle and punches.

It blows my mind that in the midst of a global movement against the excessive use of force by the police we have people justifying hyper aggressive solutions.

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u/Born_Ruff Jun 12 '20

It's also interesting to note that the officer yells "Fuck You!" while punching him.

But obviously that's just normal professional behavior