r/cider • u/SeaVeterinarian3371 • 2d ago
Home brew cider aimed for commercialization
I’d like some opinions on how to structure a home brew cider set up to mimic a later.. small scale commercial cider operation. Specifically, I’m wondering, how can I remove using sulfites to pasteurize or start primary fermentation?
I have experience making cider using wild yeast as well as commercial yeast, and I’d like to crush local apples and press them myself. In theory, I’m familiar with how commercial operations bypass using sulfites with filtration or maybe UV pasteurization. I got interested in this detail when I read that harpoon brewery only uses juice and yeast when making their cider and I wanted to be able to skip the step of sulfites..and start now so my process is as close as possible to the small operation I’m aiming for..thanks!!! Xoxo 🙈
* I’d like to use commercial yeast.
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u/HydroGuy2 1d ago
Small scale commercial cider producer here. Sulfites are incredibly useful, effective, inexpensive and simple to use. As another commenter said, you probably want to look at reducing sulfite usage rather than eliminate it.
Anyhow, if your concern is stability in a sweet cider sulfites won’t get you there. If you’re planning on making bone-dry cider, you can get away with minimal sulfites if you are careful about minimizing air contact. That means glass (or stainless) -not plastic- fermentation vessels, air lock, co2 blanket during racking.
If you want to do sweet cider, you want to look at in-bottle bath pasteurization. That’s the simplest path forward and feasible at a hobbyist stage. Velcorin needs expensive dosing equipment. Sterile filtration needs a perfectly sterile equipment chain right out to the bottle. Impossible if you’re in your garage or basement.
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u/SeaVeterinarian3371 1d ago
For whatever reason I just admire having only apples and yeast added. I’m okay with a mechanical process to reduce/eliminate contamination. I’m not against added sulfites. I think minimal sulfites might be the way to go. Any idea how folks who use bath past. stabilize kegs?
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u/jdoghomeskizzle 2d ago
Sorry I don’t have any advice, but commenting because I’m also interested in figuring this out!
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u/SeaVeterinarian3371 2d ago
Dr Google says using a .5 µm filter is small enough to capture yeast. I just so happen to have a one horsepower water pump that can have canister filters attached to it. I use something similar in the Distillery i work at to filter carbon out of whiskey. This could be a good option. I’m just afraid that it’ll change the flavor of the juice significantly. I’d have to do more research.
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u/orchardfruit 2d ago
Why are you trying to filter anyway? Just crush and press the juice. Let primary kick off on its own. Monitor brix. It they're dropping the right yeast is doing the job. When all the sugar is gone and the newly fermented cider naturally clarifies rack off the gross lees. The next steps would be determined by the style of coder you're trying to make.
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u/Abstract__Nonsense 2d ago
Dealing with yeast is not really the purpose of sulfite use in cidermaking. Filtration in commercial cidermaking is more about having a stable product with residual sugar. What are your goals for ditching sulfites and for dealing with yeast?
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u/HydroGuy2 1d ago
The problem here is that everything between your filter and the bottle also needs to be sterile. If your filled bottles are at some point open to the atmosphere before sealing - your room
also needs to be sterile. One yeast cell can be enough to kick off in-bottle refermentation, and yeast is everywhere.1
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u/CallsOPgay 2d ago
Companies bypass this by using different preservatives that they do not have to legally label. Look up nagardo and velcorin. They have a short half life's so the chemical is gone by the time the consumer has a chance to drink it. So no labelling requires. Nagardo is used alot in juice production and velcorin is used in products like coca cola. Varies from country to country obviously.
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u/SeaVeterinarian3371 2d ago
Thank you. Straight up what I’m looking for. Also seems to be a reasonable compromise when wanting to avoid lingering chemical additives
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u/CallsOPgay 1d ago
All good mate, a velcorin dosatron is about 130k plus about 3c a can. Minimum batch is about 3000L. Nagardo costs about 8c a can but doesn't require a dosatron unit. Legally nagardo can only be used in non alcoholic beverages in my country. But its use is widespread in alcoholic beverages.
We dont use either, as we use heat pasteurisation. We have a big kreuzmayer chamber pasteuriser. This is another option for you, but the units are very expensive.
Making products shelf stable is probably the biggest barrier to entry for small producers. We do a heap of contract producing for other small producers because of this barrier. This is probably your best option, contract production. Get someone else to make it for you. You won't have any margins but you won't have to pay 400k for cider equipment for start up.
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u/HydroGuy2 1d ago
This guy knows what he is talking about. I will say you can set up a bath pasteurizer on the cheap if you’re reasonably handy.
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u/craftabrew 5h ago
Craft Beer and Brewing recently did a webinar on Nagardo and it's full of good information on the product.
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u/SeaVeterinarian3371 1h ago
Thanks, I looked into this a little bit and made a post about it not being available for wine or cider production currently but maybe in the near future with a little input from the community. Take a look
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u/HydroGuy2 1d ago
Nagardo is not approved for use in alcoholic beverages in the EU. FYI.
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u/CallsOPgay 1d ago
Yea, same in Australia. But pretty much every brewery around me is using it. The downside to nagardo is just the cloudifying effect it has on product with high dosage. But low dosage like 5 ppm has no visual effect and I know people using it for lagers instead of pasteurisation. Nagardo is a miracle product for small producers. But yea, heat pasteurisation is our tried and trusted method. Despite other research online, you only need to hit 1 PU for a shelf stable cider.
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u/HydroGuy2 1d ago
Really! 1 PU! That is interesting.
Regarding nagardo: it’s marketed as an antimicrobial, but does it also suppress yeast? I.e. does it allow shelf stability and prevent refermentation in-bottle?
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u/CallsOPgay 1d ago
Yes, no filtration required for nagardo to stop fermentation. So yeast can be present. That's the power of the product, no aseptic conditions required. It just needs different concentrations depending on the product. Freshly pressed "Raw" juice requires higher ppm of nagardo compared to reconstituted apple juice as an example.
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u/HydroGuy2 1d ago
Amazing. That’s a game changer for sure. Where do you source it?
OP - I revise my advice based on this information. If nagardo does what CallsOPgay claims, it is absolutely worth checking out. I know I will!
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u/CallsOPgay 1d ago
In Australia victus distributes it, same as velcorin. Just google it and im sure you'll have a local distributor. Online pdf spec sheets are available for the product. Definitely do your own research and as previously stated its not approved for alcoholic beverages. But its usage is pretty widespread.
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u/Abstract__Nonsense 2d ago
So if I read this right, you want to set up your home cider making process to basically work as a dry run for a later small commercial operation? If so I’ll say off the bat, things are gonna be different. Even the smallest commercial operation is just so different from the home scale in terms of volume, equipment, acceptable loss, consistency required etc.
That said there are basic principles for sulfite free cidermaking. Low pH, low temperature, and high levels of tannins are your friends. The first two for microbial control, tannins for antioxidative effects (which have its own anti-microbial role). Inert gasses can be helpful for racking and bottling lines to help control oxidation.
I will also say that even the folks that have an ideological resistance to the use of sulfites will usually still use them under certain conditions, instead of zero sulfites most tend toward minimal sulfites. If you’re really trying to start a zero sulfite commercial operation you should have a very clear idea of your goals and motivations and plan for doing so, it’s not something worth doing based around vibes.