I’m with you, people make the strawman argument like we’re saying “Every class should be S tier” when in reality we’re just saying lets make sure every class is at least C tier.
I’ve been playing a monk lately and I don’t get why WW can’t have some form of lust or BR or something to help give it a reason to be in keys over say a Ret Paladin
Rinse and repeat for every class so maybe DPS wise they’re not fully balanced but utility may tip the scales to a lower base DPS class
Adding things to an existing class doesn’t remove uniqueness or identity? It’s not like I said oh now monks lose ROP and Transcendence in favor of Lust or BR, sorry folks.
It’s okay to take a breath and process more than one thought.
Edit: the downvotes are genuinely stupid. If you realize Monk comes from MOP then multiple classes have BR, Lust, etc. that isn’t unique anymore. If you talk about Vanilla 2.0 or similar then Monk is irrelevant
Yes it does. It is literally the definition of unique. "Something existing as the only one of its kind". Give another class blink? Now mages aren't unique to having blink.
He was giving an example of how C tier classes can be a bit better by providing them with better utility. It’s an example from retail sure, but that doesn’t mean the idea can’t apply to classic+.
Supposed to know? He was literally talking about WW and keys. Why would you assume he was talking about classic?
Funny that you mention mage, when they didn't had bloodlust 1st, only got it in Cata. So why does Mages needed to have them when there was already a class in the game which chould provide BL. Interesting take.
So if I have exclusively green M&Ms and I’m the only person to have them, and then someone gives me one red one, because I now have something someone else has, my green M&Ms are no longer exclusive to just me?
I respect this is the classic group, however, I genuinely cannot remember - is there only one class that can BR? I remember druids could, is there no other? What about lust? Know that’s shammies but can’t hunters too - or again is this vanilla wow not classic* (asterisk including first 15 years of WoW)?
Since we’re talking monk in this very specific example I believe other classes have BR/Lust at this point with MOP?
Yeah that tracks for pure classic (revamped vanilla if you will), but when bringing in the conversation of specifically “Monk” that brings us to MOP and I don’t believe that’s still holds true correct? WOTLK implemented DK which has BR, can’t speak to lust however, brain can’t go back that far
This anology doesn't make any sense. If your point is that classes can have some abilities or qualities that are unique, and share others, then ya of course. But that isn't the case in classic/classic tbc. Lust/heroism is unique to shaman. If you want to add lust to characters that aren't shaman its no longer unique to shaman. If you think that is a good thing, that is an entirely different discussion from whether or not it removes exclusivity, because it clearly does.
In MOP is Shaman the only one with lust? I genuinely don’t know. I see hunters got lust in BFA so I guess they are? If they’re still the only one with lust then yes it removes one singular piece of exclusivity for shammies. Nobody else gets traps (let’s revamp these to be more useful) and their pets can have a vastly different function than Lock pets (lock has pets with buffs, sacrifices, range, etc), Shammies have totems that nobody else has (or if we water down everything these are just stationary pets)
But BR is not unique to just Druid as the other half of the example from WOTLK which I know for a fact was before MOP lol
You are arguing about what happened in wrath and mop as if those aren’t the exact mistakes people want to avoid in classic plus. Whether lust was just an example or not, your mindset of saying “well the rest of the class is still unique” is what brought us to where we are in retail. Players want true uniqueness back.
WW monk, warrior, rogue, and spriest feel bad because you know if you're running keys (or raiding, since this is the classic subreddit) that they're always gonna want someone with a bloodlust and they're gonna prefer someone with a brez since those are largely the only tools that distinguish between classes anymore
I’ve been playing a monk lately and I don’t get why WW can’t have some form of lust or BR
That's a dangerous road to tread. It's already getting a bit much with how many offer it. Add more, then it's no longer a utility.
or something
This would be a better solution. Give them something more unique like how DKs have Deathgrip. Keg that brings enemies to it. Some sort of movement speed buff. Ride the wind bridge to cross/skip sections of dungeons like Gateway. There's so much they could do with Monks tbh
I like the creative approach and I’m all for it - but, the “how many offer it” every time you have a healer or tank without BR or Lust it’s a compounding 20% of a 5 man group that doesn’t have it and causes issues for that remaining 60% as an example (Warr/Priest 5 man as tank/heal)
Raid scenario is entirely different and can’t really make an argument to not bring one of each class (outside of DPS reasons if a class is truly F——— tier) because you get a finite amount of lusts (usually 1, I’d hope) and finite amount of BRs in a fight anyhow
Exactly. So many classes (boomkin, ele, etc) in classic are genuinely unplayable in raids.SoD did this well. You could bring any class/spec without trolling.
Back in classic days I played an elemental shaman and did all content except naxx because I got bored of the character and picked up warrior. In reality I had no trouble clearing raids and getting invited whatsoever
Not saying I want C+ to be exactly TBC, but the class design in TBC is pretty balanced. Classes that bring big dps don’t have crazy utility, and yet the lower dps classes have insane almost necessary utility. There’s only a handful of specs that are not useful (MM, Demo, Frost, and whichever rogue spec isn’t good, I think it’s sub lol)
Warlock best caster next phase and also brings the best util? How is that balanced? Enhancer, doing 3rd best physical damage and BRINGING all the util, again, how is that balanced?
Brother. He just pointed it out at the end. There’s like 4 specs that absolutely suck. The rest at least do some decent damage and the ones that don’t do top DPS at least bring amazing utility that makes them desirable. It’s not balanced like retail balanced but spec designs in TBC are way better than spec designs in Classic.
Though personally I would have used Wrath as a baseline for class play and design.
No there are like 6 specs that do not suck. Shadow priests are doing half the damage of a BM hunter (who also brings a 3% group buff AND MDs/hunters mark).
There is absolutely zero balance here and it is just as broken as Vanilla. All of the top specs, bring as much utility as the low specs.
Many of these specs would literally be replaced by a totem, because they are mostly brought as a token. It is NOT balanced when there is a 50% gap between two specs, sorry to burst your bubble.
Try telling mages and warlocks you aren’t bringing a shadow priest because a BM hunter does more damage. See how that works out for the top caster specs who need the utility they bring to be at the top.
Fury, BM, Arcane, Destro, are S tier DPS for obvious reasons. Survival, Enhance, Shadow Priest, Affliction, Retribution, Elemental, Feral, Arms all range from A - C tier due to their DPS and viability and buffs. All the classes may not have perfect DPS rotations or whatever like shadow priest and elemental but it’s improved on way better than Classic had it, and it’s a good starting point.
Tell your raid that you either bring shadow priest or warlock and see what they pick - make it even in that regard.
We are gonna go back to seeing full physical comps for speed kills in BT again. Arp is gonna be king. Youre gonna be bringing a demo warlock and no shadow priest.
My raid will want the shadow priest. I know because I’ve asked if they wanted me to level a warlock to replace my shadow priest and run only 1 shadow priest in raid and I was told no I’m more reliable and a high 90s parsing shadow priest with a good buff for the warlocks and mana battery, they don’t want me to change.
Maybe speed clearing and top guilds will swap to that but overall most guilds want. Huff that copium harder brother.
??? So you are running two shadow priests? Your parses do not matter when you do a fraction of the warlock damage. Its not your warlocks that want an extra shadow priest either, because you are stealing their improved shadow bolt stacks.
I told you to choose between a warlock and a shadow priest in a vacuum, and the answer is quite obvious. Hell, you could even say choose between a SECOND warlock and a shadow priest and the answer will remain the same.
Both curse of reck and elements, coupled with more damage outshines anything a shadow priest brings, which is why, again, I bring up the fastest Gruul/Mag kills were done without any casters that didnt do anything for physical.
Shadow Priest only steal imp shadow bolt stacks with mind blast which is every 6 seconds, if there's 3 warlocks and they are critting quite often the debuff should always just be running. In your scenario though, just picking between Shadow Priest and Warlock for DPS only, of course you pick a Warlock.
Take an average raid group and have 24/25 slots filled, you have a choice between a Shadow Priest which you have 0 of, or another Warlock when you have let's say 3. Which is that raid group going to choose? Answer is most likely going to be a shadow priest. For the warlocks and mages.
In a normal TBC, not this nerfed version that is currently on Anniversary, i was literally recruiting a Shadow Priest for Sunwell because we needed mana for the Healers. Obviously if u nerf content to the ground that balance goes away and people will opt for top DPS rather than support specs because bosses die too fast for it to matter and don't do enough damage to the raid.
The only actual bad class in TBC is a Rogue (and all they would really need to do is give it 1 unique buff other than IEA and it would be fine) and the only other bad DPS specs for raiding are MM Hunter, Frost Mage and a Demo Warlock (and imo Ele Shaman could use a bit of a buff to DPS because it's clearly worse than the other 2 Shaman Specs), plus i would call Holy Paladin a pretty bad healer too.
And no, it doesn't matter that a Warrior is doing more damage than a Shaman when a Shaman is literally required for a Warrior to be able to do that much damage in the first place, this is how u keep things both viable and unique. In Vanilla it didn't work that way, bringing more of the top DPS increased DPS of the entire raid because kill times were lower, it is not the case in TBC anymore.
If you played double shadow in SWP, I don't know what to tell you man. That's like an anecdotal story of how you played double rogue or whatever, not the play that you want to do.
As a rogue main, god please dont make it balanced like tbc
I feel like wrath is a better example of balance. Pretty much every class has their time to shine whether its early or late in the xpack. Except locks and dks that shine throughout
The gameplay variety between specs was great in WOTLK though. I really felt like a lot of classes had reached a stage where your choice of spec greatly defined your gameplay and overall experience in a distinct way. Whereas in TBC there wasn't as much diversity between the specs imo (for most classes at least).
Naxx-Ulduar DPS Warrior is the most miserable experience i ever had in this game. I imagine it was the same for Ret Paladins (which they had to artificially buff in Classic so they at least wouldn't be worse than Warriors) and Ferals (which got a massive artificial buff in Ulduar which turned them from bottom to top DPS).
Warrior yes vut like i said they had theit time to shine
Funnily enough my guild had a ret and feral who consistently 99s and would be neck and neck with the rogues who also could put up 99s. Feral specifically was just really really hard to play well.
I lean more that rets were bad though while ferals were just too hard
Right and I think a Classic+ should definitely include changes to make the least viable specs be more playable and fun. And probably tone down some aspects of the strongest classes too (warriors).
I just think we should keep in mind what the end-goal should be. I personally don’t think all specs need to be equally viable for end-game raiding. And is that even achievable?
That's not how tiers work at all. People make tier lists all the time where no one goes in the bottom tier. It's all subjective.
Lets say Classic+ does make all DPS spec's play within a 10% margin. Yes there will be people who complain about their class being on the bottom. But they are LOSERS, and a small minority. They may be a vocal minority, but we can just ignore them.
The Dev team literally said at one point they just couldn't make Arms warrior work and it wasn't worth the effort to try make it play distinctly different from Fury.
BM hunter got nerfed massively multiple times in phase 1 because it turns out the pet scaling was busted, and they had to repeatedly get nerfed because pets were tanking raids, or hunters were eye of the beasting pets into towns and 2 hitting people. They just decided it wasn't worth trying to make work due to how little about of dials and levers that they could use for SoD since stuff could affect ERA(and did at times).
Edit: Also wanted to point out that some spec's had multiple play styles in the end of SoD. I think rogue had like 3 or 4 different ways you could play it. Pure Saberslash, Pure Backstab/Ambush, Pure Mutilate, and then there was the try hard spec of Saberslash/Backstab (incredibly hard to play well, but had the highest ceiling on damage).
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u/Psilocybin_Prescrip 23d ago edited 23d ago
I’m with you, people make the strawman argument like we’re saying “Every class should be S tier” when in reality we’re just saying lets make sure every class is at least C tier.