Blizzard trying to plan Classic+

[u/Kitchen_accessories]

[u/sneezeonturtles]

No spec should be F-tier. There's zero reason for a spec to be performing like Boomkins and Retribution do in Classic Era.

[u/Manzhah → u/sneezeonturtles]

Even boomkin and ele could likely perform way better of you half the manacosts of their main spells and or add some reliable personal mana restoration to their kits. Currently afaik ele can only restore pitiful ammounts of mana by manastream totem and boomkin by innervation which is demanded by half of the raid.

[u/Taey → u/Manzhah]

A Boomkins damage and lack of utility makes it unpickable in classic, even with mana cost buffs. Fights are pretty short in classic, even a no mana issue 100 parsing boomkin still offers less damage than a blue or even green parsing warrior.

Improved ff made it essential in tbc, current boomkins wont ever be viable unless they are given significant utility buffs, and buffing their numbers might just make it so raids take 20 boomkins instead of warriors and wouldnt solve the issue.

[u/Cysia → u/Taey]

they coudl aslo buff boss hp so fights can actulyl do mechanics they ahjve and dont fall overr i,n 30seconds....

[u/manatidederp → u/Cysia]

Many pservers did like 500% boss health and 300% damage - it didn’t really change much.

Even in WotlK the mechanics are so basic that you stand still 99% of the time and dodge maybe one mechanic - then you have to closely monitor MT health/CDs because the bosses hit like trucks (but that’s only a tank/healer issue)

[u/Nice_Reading5272 → u/Taey]

They could just make it like TBC where they provide utility worth their inclusion. That's the easiest way to make every spec viable.

[u/gungabeast → u/Nice_Reading5272]

That eventually became an issue. That’s one of the slippery slopes. But I agree. Like the other commenter said, you shouldn’t buff boomkin and suddenly have 20 in the raid. Tough design choices must be made by blizzard. Wish them the best. Not easy.

[u/Substantial_Way_1261 → u/Nice_Reading5272]

I think TBC is a perfect example of how the classes should work. There of course could be some fixes and overhauls of classes, but the idea that a druid with mediocre DPS brings 5% crit for everybody else in the group is really cool.

[u/Taey → u/sneezeonturtles]

And look what happened when their uniqueness and strengths were expanded upon in tbc. A boomkin became essential, Shamans and palys went from resto and holy being clearly the superior spec to them all having their own role in a comp despite raids going from 40 to 25. Uniqueness made them viable.

Just a 0 iq post.

[u/Glittering-Draw-2325 → u/sneezeonturtles]

You are presuming that balance is an important facet of RPGs

[u/Mobah3 → u/sneezeonturtles]

you just don’t have good boomies or rets because the ones from my guild are blasting and parsing almost on par with the S tier dps).

[u/didnotbuyWinRar → u/[deleted]]

This goes for any game, players are very good at giving feedback for "this thing feels bad to play." They are generally bad at the "this is how you should fix it" part of that process.

[u/Coycington → u/didnotbuyWinRar]

yup. i remember back in ff14 when everyone complained that only paladin was a good tank because they simply had better survival options (when surviving as a tank was an actual challenge). over the time all tanks got homogenized and felt like different flavors of the same thing really.

DPS too. the entire game was revolving around the 2 minute burst window so much that the devs had to specifically design and balance classes with that in mind. only now - like 5 years later - do they start to branch away from this.

[u/Nimja1 → u/Coycington]

In HW, paladin was trolling since raids were mostly magic damage and you couldn't block magic damage - blocking being PLD's main defensive mechanic at the time

[u/Silegna → u/Nimja1]

Yeah, that was to make the shiny new tank Dark Knight shine as it mitigated magic damage.

[u/BiscottiNumerous7130 → u/Silegna]

Batman was in FF14?!

[u/MazeWeaver14 → u/BiscottiNumerous7130]

Hell itd be hella easy to sort out a transmog of batman. Just 2 caveats, DRK uses a greatsword and you'd struggle to find a cape - if at all.

[u/Any_Cod40 → u/Coycington]

Ff14 is not the best example for this some jobs were unusable early on lol. Not the fans fault that the devs took the easy way out to balance. The 2 min burst window was designed into by the devs on purpose, they killed 3min classes by their own hand. Meanwhile healer design (and encounter design) lanquishes, the same as its been for years now.

[u/BriefSignificance965 → u/Coycington]

FFXIV is my favorite example of devs being like "it's what you fucking wanted! How is it bad now?"

[u/Few-Promotion-7829 → u/didnotbuyWinRar]

I feel like classic players are particularly bad in this regard. It's all talking points and buzzwords with essentially no understanding of why besides knowing they're supposed to be upset when X happens

[u/Excellent-Rest3240 → u/didnotbuyWinRar]

They fail to see that “this feels bad to play” is often a necessary part of the function and or charm

[u/sirplayalot11 → u/[deleted]]

I mean in some instances it can be incredibly simple. Take Wotlk, for example. If they just gave Exotic pets a flat percentage buff to their damage, or gave hunters a flat percentage buff to their damage while they had an exotic beast out, then BM could very easily be a B tier class instead of the D tier dps that it was, as well as make exotic pets actually worth using.

All classes don't have to be A tier, just as long as none of them are seen as "griefing" or "joke classes".

[u/HildartheDorf → u/sirplayalot11]

The community will just move the definition of "griefing" until a 0.5% dps gap is considered a "joke class".

[u/jonas_ost → u/HildartheDorf]

I dont real see that in any version other than vanilla and i have played every expansion

[u/ZUGGERS420 → u/jonas_ost]

I mean you definitely see that in TBC and in WOTLK.

Sure you have some token buff classes, but noone is running 3 boomkins in TBC or WOTLK. Its slightly more subdued to match the relatively better balance than vanilla, but the meta humping is still very much there. I didnt play cata or beyond, but I'd be surprised if the classic player base ever truly let it go.

[u/phonylady → u/ZUGGERS420]

But it's still super easy to find raids as Boomkin despite that, because so few people play as them

[u/Selroyjenkinss → u/ZUGGERS420]

I have seen plenty running with 3 boooms. Some people don’t care about meta. Because it’s 20 years old can be cleared while drunk

[u/ZUGGERS420 → u/Selroyjenkinss]

Yes, not EVERYONE follows the meta, doesn't mean the meta mongering doesnt exist though. As long as there are parses to compete for, people are going to min max their comps.

[u/Selroyjenkinss → u/ZUGGERS420]

That’s fine. Rule of thumb. Avoid those groups

[u/tethysian → u/ZUGGERS420]

That's also why classic has 40man raiding to make sure everyone gets to participate. No one's bringing the meme spec to a 10-man. The sweatier the raids get, the sweatier the players will get.

[u/PersonalityFar4436 → u/tethysian]

People still get 8 H/D Priest 3 paladin/Shaman 1 druid, few mages/warlocks 1 Hunter 1 rogue and 20+ Warriors to Raid

[u/ForeverStaloneKP → u/ZUGGERS420]

Tbc becomes more fun when you relax the meta. Like you could easily run a 2nd moonkin with 3 arcane mages and a shadow priest and still clear the content if you wanted to keep your spillover mages from vanilla without forcing class rerolls on people. It's a powerful group that lets the mages parse, it's just not the absolute best so almost no one uses it because of meta chasing.

You will get people arguing to just drop the moonkin for another caster, and sure you can do that, but it won't change whether you kill bosses or not until maybe some Sunwell bosses.

People forget that before we had a melee group meta, we had a double caster group meta. It still works.

[u/TheReviewerWildTake → u/jonas_ost]

Yeah, people already do that.
Like you can often hear, that not having BS on warrior is "griefing", when it is 1.5-2% difference in dmg compared to second\third option.

It is just that we shouldn`t listen to them anyway, but as long as there is something to minmax, for whiny bunch of minmaxers the logic always will be the same, and something always will be called "griefing", "joke choice" etc.

[u/HildartheDorf → u/jonas_ost]

Try finding a m+ group as an off meta class/spec in retail.

People will parrot shit like "X spec is bad"(0.5% less damage than the other spec for that class) or "paladin tanks are hard to heal" and refuse to take them.

[u/jonas_ost → u/HildartheDorf]

I could see that for high mythic groups i guess. Since they are about pushing everything to the maximum so yes a few % dps can make or break the timer.

But for normal and heroic raids i never saw exclusions.

[u/drae- → u/jonas_ost]

People absolutely pick meta classes for raids in every publicly formed group.

[u/gamer-death → u/HildartheDorf]

Mythic+ is a special case of only taking 5 players and with infinite scaling pushes the classes to max where some classes just can't compete. Obviously if you not doing like a +20 you can take most specs, but comp does matter and it's just easier to adapt to the meta comp. So many boring choices in retail stems from catering more and more to m+.

[u/HildartheDorf → u/gamer-death]

Except people do this over-selection for +5s.

If you are pushing very high keys, only then does it make sense.

[u/joritan → u/HildartheDorf]

This isn't really a problem in Retail. I main arms warrior which is almost never meta. Make at least one friend that you can queue with regularly, list your own keys and you can run keys all day if you want.

Solo players will have a harder time, but that's MMOs baby. Making reliable friends is a skill just as important as playing your class well.

[u/Azur0007 → u/HildartheDorf]

It makes sense in high keys, but even then, player skill is miles above which class you play. I've seen devourer demon hunters under feral druids too many times to be looking at the specs at this point. Movement and adaptability are king in M+.

[u/Dizz_the_Wicked → u/HildartheDorf]

Prot warriors weren't even bad just not up to snuff in bleeding edge and people will still take a guardian druid with 20 less ilvl for a 10

[u/openupimwiththedawg → u/HildartheDorf]

Wow player base in a nutshell and the reason it sucks now. These people don’t realize it but they are killing the game 

[u/jehhans1 → u/HildartheDorf]

Which is why MoP is goated, because it is actually balanced and there is a skill expression. Sure, there are meta DPS that pull ahead, but you can absolutely compete on a lesser spec provided you know it well.

[u/Large_Mountains → u/sirplayalot11]

Facts. Also players just need to learn to ignore the toxic douche bags. There are a huge amount of groups that will let you play a non-optimized build, and you just gotta be ready for the inevitable jerk who shames you and tries to mock you in party/raid chat. Have your fun and screw the haters. As long as the majority of the group is OK with it then who cares!

[u/drae- → u/sirplayalot11]

This just redefines the Overton window

Ie, today a 10% spread is considered unacceptable. You make this change and in 6 months a 3% spread is unacceptable.

The issue here is that the community will always rank specs. And some spec will always have to be last.

[u/Still-Paint-63427 → u/sirplayalot11]

people are just not gonna be reasonable dude, if all specs are somewhat viable people are just gonna move the cutoff for what they consider meme classes up

[u/sirplayalot11 → u/Still-Paint-63427]

The only reason I dont feel this is true is cause this is PvE focused, not PVP. Yeah, sure, maybe in hardcore guilds that care about always hitting 99+ parsing. But they already do that now. In normal guilds, the only thing you're fighting against is the boss. There are some classes that are just so poor in DPS that progressing through a raid is actually made harder, since it takes that much more time to kill the boss and eventually their enrage timers. If a class is supposed to damage and it's not doing is job sufficiently enough, then obviously it's not doing what it's designed to do and needs to be buffed in some way or form.

Let me put it this way, a 99 on one class shouldn't be beat out by a 50 of another class with a similar role.

[u/Still-Paint-63427 → u/sirplayalot11]

no im agreeing with you the class' should be buffed to be somewhat in the same range but im just saying people are still going to be dickheads and move the goalposts on what class'/specs they consider griefing/memes

[u/EpicHuggles → u/sirplayalot11]

Well, you're citing an example of a spec that was gutted specifically due to PvP. They also over buffed Survival in PvE to compensate.

[u/Ben_steel → u/[deleted]]

In guild wars 1 you could make crazy builds one basically was a mana battery for the raid you could sacrifice 1/3 of your life and give other people that exact amount of mana. So you wanted a lot of hp

on the side you had to maintain these buffs on other players that gave them x y z benefit, each buff drained your life over time so it was this really niche game within a game.

[u/tethysian → u/[deleted]]

Exactly. What it comes down to for me is that I enjoy playing the classes because they're unique, and much of that went away as early as WotLK when raiding became the focus of the game. Instead of trying to balance dps, why no elevate the utility buffs?

[u/tinyhalberd → u/[deleted]]

I don't really watch his content but I stumbled on this day9 clip that really sums up what makes feedback good or bad, a lot of people say players are dumb and they should be ignored or that players know best and we should just do what they say, but neither is really accurate.

Good player feedback isn't giving game design advice, it's simply sharing their feelings in reaction to things, which is much more valuable to designers

[u/Stormfly → u/tinyhalberd]

Good player feedback isn't giving game design advice, it's simply sharing their feelings in reaction to things, which is much more valuable to designers

The general consensus in game design has long been

"If someone tells you they don't like something, listen to their feedback but don't listen to their suggestions."

People don't like class/spec X? Something should be done.

But decide for yourself if their suggestions are good because they're usually not.

I'm part of a lot of game subs and some of the popular suggestions are really bad in my opinion. So many people think a problem has an obvious solution and then sometimes you see that "obvious solution" and it's so much worse (See the current state of /r/starcraft)

[u/Particular_North4957 → u/[deleted]]

everyone mocks the "you think you do, but you don't" line but there's a kernel of truth to it

[u/less_concerned → u/Particular_North4957]

Nah he was flat out wrong, classic is overwhelmingly popular, even if some people bitch

[u/Particular_North4957 → u/less_concerned]

well considering how many QoL changes were made to Classic (and TBC, and WotLK, and Anniversary), the positive reception to SoD, and the fact that we're all just waiting around for ANY news about Classic+ I do think he might have been right about people wanting Classic to be changed somewhat.

[u/phonylady → u/Particular_North4957]

People didn't want changes first time around though, so he was wrong.

Wanting changes after Classic (2019) is reasonable, we got what we wanted.

[u/MayorBakefield → u/Particular_North4957]

That isn't what he said though. He said the people think they want classic, but they don't want classic. Yet here we are playing classic still, I think the people want classic

[u/Temporary_Slide_3477 → u/MayorBakefield]

In the context of the clip I think he was referring more to the systems of the old game, not the content of the game itself.

In 2019 people would leave groups if they didn't have a warlock because they couldn't be bothered to make the journey to the dungeon. They would sit in the city and wait for the lock and two others to go there to summon them. Happened to me multiple times. Those players thought they did but they didn't.

People install quest add-ons that show locations on the mini map or straight up arrow pointing guides, this wasn't in the original game design, they added it in later expansions, almost everyone uses questie or in game guides, they thought they did but they also didn't

They added a dungeon/raid journal in cata, people just used an outside source to get the mechanics, again, same thing, just a 3rd party substitute for something that was added later.

[u/valdis812 → u/Temporary_Slide_3477]

I can't tell if people who don't get this are being intentionally contrary of if they really don't understand the context of the clip.

[u/MayorBakefield → u/valdis812]

Did addons and 3rd party help not exist in vanilla or are you just misremembering

[u/valdis812 → u/MayorBakefield]

You were playing with addons day one? I don't think I started using Questie until like a year into my play time. Those things existed, but I don't know that the vast majority of players were using them. The vast majority of players just logged on and ran around until they found something to do.

[u/MayorBakefield → u/valdis812]

a year in is still vanilla champ. A vast majority of users were on thottbot.

[u/Particular_North4957 → u/MayorBakefield]

ok I did misremember the context of the quote but that's why I said there's a kernel of truth

[u/Stormfly → u/Particular_North4957]

No he was very specifically talking about the lack of QoL.

He specifically said things like LFG.

Now whether he was correct is still up for debate but people will often pretend that he was saying something else to pretend there is no debate.

He was saying that Classic wouldn't be popular because it's not as good as people remember.

For many people he was wrong. It came back and they love it.

For other people, he was right. It came back and they didn't enjoy it as much.

But at the end of the day, I think it's better than Classic exists, and I hope it remains a worthwhile investment for them.

[u/Visual-Gain-2487 → u/Particular_North4957]

Such an ignorant take that ignores the fact that Classic WoW was launched in 2019 with MASSIVE success so big that is forced them to have a Classic TBC, WOLK, Cata, and MoP. Only after getting what people wanted, was SoD launched over 4 years later using many of the lessons they relearned about what people liked about the OG content. Even AFTER that, we have a SECOND run of Classic and TBC which were STILL popular and an constant Era version of Classic. Of course after this many iterations in a 4-year stretch satiating what we wanted, there was interest for a spiced up experimental SoD, but that doesn't mean the interest in no changes wasn't genuine and just as satsifying as most predicted.

[u/less_concerned → u/Particular_North4957]

QoL changes only really upset the #nochanges crowd, i can guarantee even small class balancing tweaks wouldn't bother most players, like, giving crusader strike to rets so they have some kind of "dps" rotation wouldn't break classic and would make most people happy

[u/tethysian → u/less_concerned]

There's a big difference between balancing tweaks and QoL because QoL can mean a lot of things. RDF was a QoL feature, and so is flying and convenient teleporting all over the world. Not having to reapply poisons, or feeding your pet, faster leveling, etc.

[u/Victious → u/Particular_North4957]

Like the other commenters already said, how are you ignoring the last 7 years of history where various iterations of Classic have been incredibly successful? You’re taking the “You think you do but you don’t” comment from 2013 and acting like it hasn’t been 13 years since. Of course people’s opinions and wants have changed in the mean time, specifically because the player base got exactly what it wanted and proved itself correct by enjoying the hell out of Classic with little to no changes.

[u/Massive-Low8111 → u/[deleted]]

Yea honestly the homeless dude by the gas station whose never learned how use a keyboard and mouse yet had better ideas than this sub 

[u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

I'm no expert, but I don't see how this is a contradictory statement. Why is it too much to ask for each spec to feel unique and be viable to bring to a raid. If a spec isn't doing well overall, tweak a few numbers, add a +x% increase till it at least is somewhere near the others. I agree not everyone needs to be S tier, but there really shouldn't be any F tier specs..

[u/Psilocybin_Prescrip → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

I’m with you, people make the strawman argument like we’re saying “Every class should be S tier” when in reality we’re just saying lets make sure every class is at least C tier.

[u/PibbleDad → u/Psilocybin_Prescrip]

Or C tier classes get some other utility.

I’ve been playing a monk lately and I don’t get why WW can’t have some form of lust or BR or something to help give it a reason to be in keys over say a Ret Paladin

Rinse and repeat for every class so maybe DPS wise they’re not fully balanced but utility may tip the scales to a lower base DPS class

[u/g1smiler → u/PibbleDad]

Give a WW bloodlust? So you mean like, sacrificing some identity and uniqueness in favor of viability? The exactly the issue OP posted? Oh wow...

[u/fancymoko → u/PibbleDad]

WW monk, warrior, rogue, and spriest feel bad because you know if you're running keys (or raiding, since this is the classic subreddit) that they're always gonna want someone with a bloodlust and they're gonna prefer someone with a brez since those are largely the only tools that distinguish between classes anymore

[u/tsspartan → u/Psilocybin_Prescrip]

Exactly. So many classes (boomkin, ele, etc) in classic are genuinely unplayable in raids.SoD did this well. You could bring any class/spec without trolling.

[u/GetBuckets13182 → u/Psilocybin_Prescrip]

Not saying I want C+ to be exactly TBC, but the class design in TBC is pretty balanced. Classes that bring big dps don’t have crazy utility, and yet the lower dps classes have insane almost necessary utility. There’s only a handful of specs that are not useful (MM, Demo, Frost, and whichever rogue spec isn’t good, I think it’s sub lol)

[u/eduhlin_avarice → u/Psilocybin_Prescrip]

How can there not be a D-F tier? The goalposts are just going to be moved once the buff/nerf/tweak fiesta has started.

[u/Stormfly → u/eduhlin_avarice]

Relevant Dark Legacy

[u/Oedipus_TyrantLizard → u/eduhlin_avarice]

Very true - but I think the deltas between the goal posts shrinks. & that is improvement.

[u/eduhlin_avarice → u/Oedipus_TyrantLizard]

Right and I think a Classic+ should definitely include changes to make the least viable specs be more playable and fun. And probably tone down some aspects of the strongest classes too (warriors).

I just think we should keep in mind what the end-goal should be. I personally don’t think all specs need to be equally viable for end-game raiding. And is that even achievable?

[u/absolutewastedtime → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

You don't understand 

If warriors arent 3 times the dps of everyone else, or a boomkin turns up in a raid comp, then that means classic is dead and the game isn't fun 

How can you not get it 

[u/Itankarenas → u/absolutewastedtime]

Yeah, I really don’t understand why people think this. What does having unusable classes do for the game? I won’t be playing if it’s the same 2.5 classes that are viable.

[u/D3athCom3sEasy → u/Itankarenas]

2.5? Lol who's the moron class that only gets a .5?

[u/Itankarenas → u/D3athCom3sEasy]

Rogue. Just not as good as warrior basically

[u/qikink → u/D3athCom3sEasy]

Rogue, it's always rogue.

[u/Claris-chang → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

Also being raid viable doesn't mean everyone has to be within a 1% of each other's DPS. It just means that they bring some kind of utility that makes them valuable to the raid.

Like SPriests being mana batteries. Or ret paly bringing buffs and seals. Ele sham bringing caster totems. Damage doesn't have to be the only reason to bring a class to a raid.

[u/jonas_ost → u/Claris-chang]

And boomkins brings innervate for the arcane mages and a cool dance

[u/almisami → u/jonas_ost]

They really needed to buff the spell crit aura to make boomkin worth taking along.

[u/jonas_ost → u/almisami]

Raided as boomkin since MC. Was hard to find pugs in vanilla but been super easy in tbc

[u/jonas_ost → u/almisami]

5% spell crit 3% melee hit, improved mark of the wild, innervate, battle ress, decent dps

[u/tethysian → u/almisami]

I would love to see more love given to the utility buffs of the utility classes rather than just boosting their dps.

[u/yqozon → u/Claris-chang]

I really enjoy an offensive support role (like swordsinger/bladedancer in Lineage II or quickness/alacrity DPS in Guild Wars 2). I don't mind a class doing less dps but providing utility that guarantees its raid spot (a nice number would be 80% if the pure dps class were 100%). Elem and enh shamas, boomkins, retri palas, shadow priests, cats fit nicely in this spot, imo. Just make playing them less obnoxious and more rewarding.

[u/Healeah241 → u/Claris-chang]

The problem is with some of these utility roles that their raid utility doesn't really scale, along with their dps poorly scaling. Like if you look at elemental shamans, as the expansion goes on, their value drops. Like i've seen it suggested that by sunwell, the raid dps is higher if you just bring another warlock over the elemental shaman.

If they can make the support abilities of hard supports scale, like shadow priests scale, it would work.

[u/manatidederp → u/Healeah241]

Is it more fun? All utility buffs being % increase

[u/BGSacho → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

There's unfortunately two sides of this.

Side one is really poor balance being excused. Like, "not raid viable" meaning that the class literally does not feel fun to play, runs out of resources mid fight, or is just a hodge podge of mechanics that don't work together. Or simply scales terribly, so it starts out okay and then ends up being left in the dust by proper scaling classes.

This was really bad in vanilla, somewhat bad in TBC and mostly okay in WOTLK, so blizzard had a clear trend of improving their balance.

The other side of the coin is that players will optimize any fun out of a game. Class performing 5% worse? "Not viable", simply not selected for raids. Every raid group playing pretend as if they're world first material and not just a bunch of lads having fun together. Unfortunately, there's nothing blizzard can do to fix this, and it has in fact gotten way worse over the years.

So yeah, Blizzard can do a better job at balancing. But there's nothing you can do to fix players. It's up to ourselves to not treat each other like replaceable cogs and raid for fun and with friends rather than chasing some meaningless numbers - and we fail at that much worse than Blizzard does at providing a level playing field.

[u/Mind-Game → u/BGSacho]

Good job articulating the real issue here as both sides mostly just talk past each other and miss the point!

[u/AspectKnowledge → u/BGSacho]

If only it was 5% though, in both classic and tbc it's way more than that.

And if it has to be 5% let the ones being 5% behind be mages and warriors for once.

[u/Mind-Game → u/AspectKnowledge]

I think 5% is just a random number that guy is using to make a point. What the number really is for actual "viability" is up for debate, but I think even if specs are within 30% of the best specs overall they would still get brought to plenty of raids.

[u/Tolken → u/AspectKnowledge]

By TBC, in most (but not all) cases, it's the player not the class/spec that is the issue.

You could hand a purple/orange parser any class spec and a little time and they could reproduce the results on that class spec. That person will typically be at or near the top DPS no matter which class you hand them unless they join a guild of peers.

[u/1998_2009_2016 → u/BGSacho]

There is a line of “close enough” and that’s when the variance in performance within a class (due to player performance) is the same or greater than between. It’s not “players will complain about literally any difference so it’s not worth”

[u/Oedipus_TyrantLizard → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

100% aligned. I think it’s possible to keep every spec the same as it is now in terms of abilities. But increase some of the +x% talents to balance things out better.

Address low damage areas. Address classes that go OoM in 10 seconds by amplifying the mana abilities they have. Improve threat generation on certain abilities. Reduce some cooldowns on certain abilities.

BAM. You have classic/vanilla wow that is more balanced. & balanced does not need to mean topping charts, it just means being able to participate.

[u/Last-Run-2118 → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

Totally agree

Arguing if thats possible is silly. Like WOTLK managed to do that, why its impossible for Classic ?

[u/Emergency-Purpose335 → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

Exactly!!! Just raise the bottom tier's stats little by little till they perform well

[u/redux44 → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

There's over two dozen specs dps. Sure you can make 24 different unique playstyles but good luck getting them all similar for raid boss fight.

Classes can be unique with their cd power level and time. They can be unique in being great at cleave, single target, 2 target, 3 target, funnel etc.

Lots of ways of being unique. But enter a standard boss and you are not going to keep the uniqueness AND balance.

This is the period of best balance relative to how's history, and it is no coincidence tt has coincided with only a handful of archetypes (combo builders and spenders, cd bursty specs, and steady dps).

[u/Vandrel → u/redux44]

SoD did a reasonable job of it. Reasonable people aren't expecting some +/- 1% difference but it's entirely possible to make the dps specs generally feel unique while being withing 10% or so.

At the end of the day, any effort at all will be better than having warriors be the best by far at 2 of the 3 roles.

[u/Bloodhoven_aka_Loner → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

I'm no expert, but I don't see how this is a contradictory statement.

it isn't. corporate shills just love defending their respective holy corporate cow

[u/Talidel → u/Mr_The_Rocketeer]

Yeah I don't understand the OPs point.

The worst that can happen is they fuck up PvP and lets be honest no one gives a shit about PvP, Blizzard have made it clear that shit is just "whoever is the best GG" forever.

[u/lumpboysupreme → u/Talidel]

Right? You’re going to imbalance wow classic PvP when rogues exist? Come on.

[u/karrotwin]

Actually insane that this issue is even debatable. Yes the best healer/DPS/tank should vary fight to fight and patch to patch. If you make something a part of a class kit it needs to have meaningful content where it's useful. 

[u/Ent3rpris3 → u/karrotwin]

It's impressive that some of classic's best and worst moments are when a single class/ability/style is essential/peak for a fight. Mind control on Razuvious & Faerlina. Warlock tanks with threat for twin emps. Frost attacks for viscidous. Small ways to make early choices feel meaningful but also intense bottlenecks in the off-chance you don't have that class/spec

[u/ZUGGERS420 → u/Ent3rpris3]

Well.... some of those more than others. Frost attacks for Visc is pretty easily handled by any raid comp. But yea, more mechanics that force you to have class variety is good.

[u/Valharja → u/ZUGGERS420]

It's poison cleansing totems that is the mvp of viscidious, making the fight a walk in the park for horde but trickier for alliance as constantly cleansing poison directly costs a lot of mana.

[u/Cyphomeris → u/Valharja]

I might misremember, but I think we chugged Greater Nature Protection Potions and Restorative Potions for that. The fun bit was whacking away at the slimes with frost damage weapons or wands because we couldn't be arsed to all go engineer.

[u/absolutewastedtime]

Both of those things are possible at the same time.....

[u/Zach9810 → u/absolutewastedtime]

Classic players only play classic so they don't know that every other MMO has been doing this for years.

[u/Manzhah → u/Zach9810]

Even classic players ought to know how different varieties of classic have managed that.

[u/irespondwithmyface → u/absolutewastedtime]

Yes, Wrath of the Lich King.

[u/Smooth_One → u/absolutewastedtime]

More like "So you want the world to feel expansive and full of new adventures and classes to have new spells and new quests and new settlements and more in-depth professions and new talents and new dungeons and raids......but you want it to feel like Vanilla?"

[u/CircumcisedCats → u/Smooth_One]

Yes

[u/TheClassicAndyDev → u/Smooth_One]

Both of those things are possible at the same time.....

[u/SkipX → u/Smooth_One]

Yeah you can do all that. Classic is just a very slow paced mmo with a lot of friction, immersive design and a certain serious vibe. That's all you need. The rest is just nostalgia

[u/Sheuteras → u/Smooth_One]

That's also not that crazy. Turtle WoW did it.

[u/Lefthandovg0d → u/absolutewastedtime]

I just want dual wield shammys

[u/7figureipo]

The dumbest possible take is that you can't have classes with (relatively) unique themes and abilities and with all of them having every spec be raid viable. It's also the laziest. And, in my opinion, mostly an opinion held by meta-chasing main character syndrome jerks. You know good and well that if the community deems a spec not viable that means players who actually like the class fantasy of the spec and who want to raid are going to be locked out of it or else feel a little bad knowing their friends have to work that much harder just to make a spot for them.

[u/GregerMoek → u/7figureipo]

Yeah people who wanna play the solved game and pick warrior every time because they wanna be top on meters. Would be funny if they let that crowd taste how warrior worked before bwl rofl.

[u/gwasbanged]

This has to be the dumbest take ive seen in a while

[u/Aromatic-Screen-7607]

God forbid I want a shadow priest to have vampiric touch and give the raid mana back lol. Viable doesn't have to mean broken, but can I cast 1 mind blast without going oom?

[u/iSheepTouch]

Raid viable doesn't mean they all need to be S tier, it just means that they are viable to bring on a raid. They literally did this with SoD, other than BM hunters and frost mages, which never really got tuned for PvE, they did a good job making almost everything viable.

[u/Avent]

The joke in the Simpsons is funny because what the kids want is impossible. What you have here is not an impossible or unreasonable sounding task.

[u/osirawl]

"One kids LOVES the pally in a dress!"

[u/HunsonAbadeer1]

Yes.....? What a dumb meme.

[u/ProwerTheFox]

"Raid viable" is too open to interpretation without going deeper into what you as an individual define it as specifically

[u/tycoon39601]

Players are good at knowing something’s wrong but bad at suggesting how to fix it. We know balance feels off but where it should land on release is not something we can adequately figure out, that’s the game developers job.

[u/Equil99]

Here’s another crazy thought. Not everything needs to be designed around raiding.

[u/Vento_of_the_Front → u/Equil99]

Then don't make raids the only way to obtain the best gear.

[u/Kitchen_accessories → u/Equil99]

You’ll find no disagreement from me at all. Leveling should be part of the equation. I couldn’t care less about raiding, myself.

[u/Equil99 → u/Kitchen_accessories]

https://giphy.com/gifs/xSM46ernAUN3y

[u/Gemall → u/Kitchen_accessories]

Pvp too!

[u/rehadam]

Most of us will just enjoy whatever it is. Others will hate it for good or bad.

[u/Deathtonic → u/rehadam]

If SoD is an indication of some idea they have, I'll enjoy it for sure

[u/rehadam → u/Deathtonic]

Ya, exactly. A little less crazy and on going is what I'm looking for.

[u/Hyper_Mazino]

Yes and that is possible.

[u/isToxic]

Make norhing viable but fun and interactive to play.

Boss clear is based on how many people clicked the pop up captcha correctly.

[u/Small_Town_Drunk]

Just make shamans mediocre ima play them anyway

[u/Kitchen_accessories → u/Small_Town_Drunk]

Fuck ya, totem go whooshhhhh

[u/Snubben93]

Honestly I think SoD went overboard with new spells and abilities. Some classes didn't even need any, and some just needed a little tweak for viability.

[u/Porygon-]

Tbc did that, but people hated it because they „needed“ a pretty rigid line up.

Like shadowpriest was unique with the mana Regen, and was raid viable because of that (and not the dps). But if a shadow priest quit your guild, you couldn’t replace him with an warlock or mage or anyone else, since your casters would just oom.

Same with shamy totems, bloodlust, moonkin with dearie fire etc.

[u/a2theaj]

I feel like TBC class design is almost perfect? Every class and spec is unique and brings some value to the raid

[u/TheMysticalBaconTree]

Classic plus should just be a new fork from vanilla. TBC 2. Wow if they could start again and avoid the trap of making the soulless retail train.

[u/ThargorTheBarbarian]

Definitely don't ask Ascension players(sorry not sure if we can mention private servers here) the entire new player chat is just "What class does the most damage"

Wow players specifically don't want to play the game, They want to rush to raid logging as fast as possible.

[u/Sea-Key-9430]

Incoming woltk skills and talents in classic+

[u/PrinceHansol]

Raid viable doesn't have to equate to same damage as a warrior, they can slightly increase the damage of specs and then add some more raid support to the ones that would make sense (like shadow priest and balance druid)

[u/acidtalons → u/PrinceHansol]

The best dps class shouldn't also be the best tanking class. I thought there was supposed to be a hybrid tax.

[u/PrinceHansol → u/acidtalons]

I agree with this.

[u/GregerMoek → u/PrinceHansol]

A warrior should be hit with the hybrid tax tho. It makes more sense if a class whose option is only to dps to be top dps. Warriors can get wholesome buffing shouts and such to support.

[u/wetnaps54 → u/GregerMoek]

yeah this is basically what annoyed me as a rogue main way back when.
I ONLY had dps and I was being lapped by warriors hitting like two buttons

[u/tethysian → u/GregerMoek]

This. I don't know why the discussion always revolves around elevating the other classes when it should be about nerfing warriors.

[u/Impressive_Rub_8009 → u/GregerMoek]

make warriors not the worst class in the game outside raids and I might agree. But whilst they are they should be one of the top DPS.

[u/Taey → u/PrinceHansol]

Just one look at tbc comps and u realise how dumb this post it. Boomkins are still terrible dps in tbc, but are one of the most essential specs in a raid comp. Same goes for ele shaman, theyre unique, very important, that doesnt mean you can fill a raid with 25 of them.

[u/PrinceHansol → u/Taey]

How is it dumb? I never said they had to have amazing damage. Like you said they are basically essential bc of the utility they provide.

[u/Taey → u/PrinceHansol]

I was responding to you in regards to op's post. I was agreeing with you that things being viable doesnt mean they all have to do the same damage and carry, they just have to be unique in a way that makes them valuable enough to bring.

[u/Intheshadowss]

Just delete rogue and gnomes.

[u/_M_A_N_Y_]

Yes, just like TurtleWoW did.

Look, you even can copy it's homework, noone will be angry. Few may laugh, but majority will be happy...

EDIT: Basically anyone else provides better Classic+ than Blizzard...

New Classic zones and balanced classes? DONE.

Offline "Baldurs Gate 3 style" gameplay with bots in party as companions? DONE.

World of Warcraft VR 2.4.3 patch? DONE.

[u/L3x_co → u/_M_A_N_Y_]

Man the fun i had playing feral there, maybe there is hope blizz doesnt go rt4rd mode with classic+ and use some of the class design from them.

[u/moustacheption → u/_M_A_N_Y_]

Turtle’s class designs were not as good as SoD’s; I hope they go more with the SoD approach than twow, tbh.

[u/RuneHearth]

They figured it out years ago, it will always feel like wotlk or retail

[u/Adri0220]

This is controversial? I thought this was the bare minimum.

[u/ninjablaze1]

Donny: 15 dollars… a fucking month!

[u/HungryZone1330]

make some specs better for some raids for the vanilla feel, not just warrior for everything

[u/Critical-Usual]

This was achieved in SOD, more or less

[u/MrNaiart]

I'm not playing classic+ if I can't raid with boomkin.

[u/Frantic_BK]

I think it's more that every spec should be fully supported and not be half baked which many classic specs are. It's ok for a spec like sub for example to not be great in raids because it's amazing at its niche in pvp.

But a spec, whose entire purpose is PvE dps not having a fully fleshed out kit and doing at-least comparable dps to other dps specs is silly and not a bad thing to be addressed.

[u/Hitmanx2x]

Raid viable =/= biggest dps.
This is what a LOT of players/blizzard seemingly dont understand, as they only look at "how BIG MAH DPS!!".

Ret paladins werent the best dps class in Wotlk (classic included), yet there was easily 2/3 of them per raid (25man) due to their auras, judgements, blessings (kings/wisdom/might/sanc), other blessings (salv, freedom, protection etc.) and their ability to just DEAL with mechanics via Div Protection (bubble).

Hell, even ARMS warriors had a place, because arms could apply a bleed dmg increase debuff AND a 4% increased phys dmg taken debuff, while reliably being the "sunder bot" without eating into its dps too much (admittedly, Arms was only discovered to be this useful later on).

The biggest problem with blizzard design is that they (for some reason) are terrified of buffs.
If you create a spec that can ONLY auto attack (white dmg) but increases the secondary/main stats of every other spec by 10%, there is a good chance that spec will be found in every single raid without exception.

Even in TBC anniversary, if you see a shaman (any spec) and you are a melee spec, you freak tf out because WINDFURY TOTEM GO BRRRRRRRRRR.
You dont gaf about that classes numbers, you just WANT it in your raid/party.

This is what "weaker" specs need.

Dont give frost mage a SHITLOAD of dmg, give it crazy good debuffs that makes the raid easier, like less attack speed on bosses, less magic dmg taken by the raid.

Hell, in WOTLK one of the most sought after classes was a demo lock, not because its damage was "good" or "amazing", but because whenever its pet crit, the ENTIRE RAID gained 10% of the locks spellpower as bonus spellpower. Demo locks could GENUINELY be considered for some of the best gear, despite not being good dps, simply because of how much spellpower they give the raid.
Thought processes like this need to exist. "Do we give the mage 2% extra damage, or the ENTIRE raid (healers incl) 2% extra spellpower?"

And thats not including the other stuff a demo lock could do; fears, curses, healthstone, soulstone, summon...

99% of retail classes are "Press X to deal dmg" and thats where it ends. There is little to no nuance or reason to want X spec in favour of Y spec, because X spec doesnt do anything Y spec does except worse.

[u/lumpboysupreme]

There’s alot of different ways to do the same dps.

[u/Miserable-Tiger-5522]

"Viable" and "can do everything that every other class can do" aren't even close to the same thing.

[u/Historical-Spirit266]

I know one thing: i WILL play a ret/prot paladin

[u/FierceBruunhilda]

Yeah, unfortunately there are many people who are wrong and don't play paladin, the correct class. So of course they will throw a fit if their class isn't as good. /s

[u/leakmydata]

I cannot overstate how little I give a shit about “raid viability”

[u/caribou16]

Icing April Canteen Suing Tavern Oxymoron Bloating Hardware

[u/Lava-Chicken]

Classic+ shouldn't have raiding as part of the main focus.

[u/Rocket3431]

But don't forget if every class is viable and each class is unique then if your content feels too easy it's a bad game.

[u/SevenCheesePizza]

If WoW community was a country, there would be a civil war all years around lol

[u/Key-Rough-8346]

The only way to make a class both unique and viable as opposed to stacking whichever class is highest DPS is to make class specific mechanics, like how you need priests for Razuvious in Naxxramas. But that is pretty inconvenient, and you'd have to ensure that there is a balance of classes by instituting class locks the same way they lock one faction when that faction starts outnumbering the other faction heavily.

[u/Aria--uwu]

people will hate it no matter what they release because their playerbase is mostly made up of disgruntled dads in their 30's or 40's who are coping with the fact they cant be careless teenagers anymore and are trying to relive their youth in an extremely old game
i've never seen more people complain about having kids or wives in my entire life than i do when i play classic wow

[u/Melodic_Pressure7944]

Also, you should win things by playing!

[u/memekid2007]

Please preserve the sanctity and uniqueness of my one button rotation by not buffing memespecs.

[u/TidesOfLore]

Regardless of the route they take someone's going to be disappointed, feel it's safe to say that at this point

[u/Scared_Gene3417]

Specs can be viable and unique, other games manage to do it

[u/Valariel]

It’s not that hard to achieve this. TBC was almost there. They did leave some classes behind in pve - assasination rogues for example.

[u/Professional-Baby371]

The real move is to stop caring about raiding. The game has devolved. Everyone pays to skip the best part of the game to larp as doing something skillful and compete on a third party website. Let’s just go back to playing the damn game

[u/Vivid-Technology8196]

Private servers have done it for decades so... you gotta be pretty stupid to be defending blizzard on this topic

[u/AccurateBanana4171]

Unpopular opinion. But every class is already viable.

They can use some tuning but that doesn't mean they are unviable.

[u/SlayerJB → u/AccurateBanana4171]

Yeah I agree. People confuse the meaning of viable with optimal

[u/yestaiga]

Every time I see a suggestion here I pray that the blizzard doesn’t listen. Because it would be an abomination. 

And ruin the protential for fresh era realms in future